american unions
I was sitting here reading and read the post by flowerchild about american workers and thought I'd put my two cents in here .
I have a totally different view of the american unions then she does. I was a member of a unions once a long time ago. The union I worked for did nothing but help the company they didnt care about the employees at all. even though we were the ones paying them.
So to me unions are not worth having it would be much better for employees to get together and work for what they want or even start a new kind of union ran by employees who still have to do there job and get paid the same as the employees.
I have had many jobs in my life time and have never been unemployed for more then a few weeks unless I wanted to be. So you see I believe that if your unemployed you either think your to good to do a different kind of work to get by or your lazy and dont want to work.
The company I work for now has a great way of doing things as far as raises go. We have a commity of our own workers who negotioate with the owner until they come to an agreement about it. They have managed to keep us ahead of a lot of the bussinesses here pay wise.
Heres some more thoughts about unions:
1} Unions dont seem to care if they drive the companies out of business as long as they get what they want.
2} Unions help nobody but the union stewards.and reps
3} Unions are outdated and need to rethink there way of doing things.
Hope I didnt make anybody to mad with this post but its how I feel. Hope everybody is having a nice day.
With all due respect redneck, you didn't work "for" the union. Unions don't own or manage businesses. You worked in a union shop. Employees are the owners and operators of unions. They aren't separate from it. A union isn't a service provider it is an organization of, by and for workers. If the union isn't performing on your behalf then you have the right to vote in new leaders. If you are a worker who does nothing but pay dues and wait for the union to do something for you then you are part of the problem.
May 30, 2009 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmmm. Kind of like the US government, huh? So easy to vote in new leadership.
Unions are the same sort of extended high school popularity contest that ever grouping of Americans becomes. Have you ever been in a union? I have and it isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. In fact, most union members I know (including a step father who retired from a union) are closer to redneck's report than yours. Most are just trying to do a job and assuming the union is doing something.
Again, kind of like the government.
Why is it such a "revolutionary" idea to think that we should look beyond the unions as a way to truly solve those things that unions have failed to deliver for all American workers in more than a century of spotty performance? Why can't we design and develop new ways to achieve national health care or a real national pension benefit or living wage guarantees?
Expand your mind a little. More cowbell isn't always the answer.
May 31, 2009 9:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
>So you see I believe that if your unemployed you either think your to good to do a different kind of work to get by or your lazy and dont want to work.
I'm hoping that your fingers got ahead of your good sense when you wrote that. It's at best a very narrow viewpoint, at worst an insult to many decent people.
May 30, 2009 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
im sorry barefooted but its the way I feel a few years ago I was working as an millwright makeing really good money and the job ended but the bills didnt so I had to take the best job offered at the time which was flipping bugers at a fast food restraunt but it paid the bills for awhile. Now I hear people around me say they would never work fastfood and I think that's wrong you have to do what you have to do
May 30, 2009 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that you have to do what you have to do. When someone needs a job nothing should be off the table. Nothing. But your statement was wide and encompassing of folks who can not make ends meet as easily as that - who have circumstances that you do not understand. I'm simply saying that your consideration of the bigger picture may need enlarging.
May 30, 2009 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry, Redneck, but you have a completely wrongheaded view of unions. Unions are representatives of the workers. Without unions there would have been no middle class in this country. Without unions there would have been no real health care programs, no workplace protections, no livable wages, no retirement programs. Once unions established a foothold, the benefits trickled down to other non-union shops and all blue-collars benefited.
You're lucky to work for an employer who understands how beneficial it is to treat his/her employees fairly and with respect. Not everybody is so fortunate.
All you have to do is compare wages, benefits and protections from years back (before Reagan) when unions were strong, to today when outsourcing and off-shoring have rendered the average worker poor and powerless.
Unfortunately your attitude about unions is the prevailing one. It's a mystery to me why any worker would choose to bash unions when one look at the history of labor in America will show you how much better the quality of life was for everybody when membership was high and unions had some clout.
May 30, 2009 7:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, Ramona, red's view of the unions, from many union members themselves such as myself for about four year before the Navy and my step father who retired as a union sheet metal worker, is exactly the way it is.
Unions were very valuable in the beginning, but the accomplishments you point to are nearly a century in the past. Union today do little more than puff up their own image, pay their top leadership gobs of money and continue to "fight" the same battles over and over again yet never really succeed at solving the problems workers face. There is a reason why they have never represented more than 30% or so of American workers.
Perhaps it is not red who needs to open up his mind on this particular issue.
May 31, 2009 9:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
I reckon no one is going to get mad, Red. You have your opinion and thoughts and you stated them clearly. You will get disagreements, but not anger.
When you describe how the company you work for does things, by employee committee, you are describing the essence of a union. Tomato. To-mah-to. Keep reading, Red.
Have you ever thought about going off on your own and starting a business? Working for yourself instead of somebody else?
May 30, 2009 7:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
flowerchild I have thought about it but I have to ask why did you ask. I think I could run a very good business.
May 31, 2009 1:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Red - I like you and respect you. That said...
You like your OT. Who do you think fought, and bled, and in more than a few cases died, to get that into labor law?
I'll bet you don't think kids of eight or ten years should be on factory floors, do you? Who fought to protect them?
And I'm guessing you think that a safe workplace - somewhere that you don't have to worry about getting killed or maimed by decrepit equipment, unguarded drive belts, uninsulated electrical connections, and similar things, well, I'm just betting you think being safe from those sorts of dangers is a good idea. I think you know where that one's going...
Don't buy into the demonization of organized labor. While it may not seem like it from a tunnel-vision viewpoint, they're on the side of you, and me, and everyone who works for a living.
(Former AFSCME member, on the call list for the local IATSE local, grandson of a union member here...)
May 30, 2009 8:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
old grouch I didnt say unions were never good they have done a lot for use but like the polititions they have started to worry more about there selves instead of the people they represent. thats why I said to start over and mekr them recieve the same pay as the people they represent and the same benefits
May 31, 2009 1:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Red, you still are only seeing your piece of the picture - there is much, much more...
May 31, 2009 1:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
old grouch I'm glad you have had good experience with unions and they must have treated you well. I had bad expience with them and would not recommend them. I could be wrong about them it wouldnt be the first time I was wrong but I dont think I would change my mind about them
May 31, 2009 2:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
All those things are a century in the past. The unions didn't evolve with the times which is why they have never represented more than 30% of workers at the height of their power.
What have you done for me lately, Mr. Union Boss? Why haven't we solved the living wage issue or achieved national health care or developed a national pension plan. They've been on the scene for a century yet still fight each individual battle in each individual industry and wondering why nothing actually gets resolved. That might make unions obsolete if they actually accomplished a living wage and national health care and a real pension benefit for all workers.
I think this canonization of unions on the left is every bit as damaging and naive as is the sainting of MBAs on the right. Time to expand our thinking on whether or not unions are the best way to achieve all those very worthy goals they have been fighting (and failing) to get.
May 31, 2009 9:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Expanded thinking equals change in perspective. It would help if business started looking at workers as economic assets instead of costs of doing business. The employee you lay off today is an employee that cannot afford to buy your product tomorrow. Same logic applies when you outsource a job to a worker making 1/10th the wage.
May 31, 2009 11:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
No argument. There have been failures on both sides of the labor-business equation. Toss government in there for good measure and it is little wonder that regular people are the ones who mostly get screwed.
May 31, 2009 1:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Redneck, perhaps it's my own redneck ties, but I think I see where you are coming from.
Unions have played a crucial part in our nation's history in establishing rights for workers and better working conditions. Because of the unions, we now have many laws in place to protect the workforce. And all is not made right, because I know, at least in these here parts, women are way underpaid compared to the men doing similar jobs, and this certainly needs addressed.
However, in my experience, being a union worker in the present day is not all that great. It's like having two bosses who are butting heads and pulling you in different directions. You pay dues to leaders who seem more interested in pursuing personal vendettas than representing the majority of workers. It is extra stress without getting enough benefit to outweigh it.
Oleeb said that if you pay dues and wait for the union to do something, then you are part of the problem, but that isn't exactly fair, because you can vote for change, but be in the minority.
I can understand the importance of unions in history, but that shouldn't be a reason to throw redneck's experience out the window. After all, the Republican party was pretty happenin' back in the ol' days... that doesn't mean I'm gonna make excuses for them now.
May 31, 2009 12:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great point about the republican party not being above criticism despite an early history of greatness. Unions, no matter what they did in their infancy to bring us out of the Dark Ages of the Industrial Revolution, have actually failed to achieve a sustainable fair shake for the American worker. They won some very hard fights early in their history and then proceeded to rest on those laurels (and dues) ever since.
I was born and raised in western cities, so that understanding has nothing to do with redneck roots. Mostly it has to do with having been in a union in the late 80s, early 90s and having a step father who retired from one after 30 years. I think this will be a strident thread as it is a little too far outside the choir's imagination - that we could actually solve everything unions exist to address and do it permanently. That would be too good for the unions, true, but it would be great for American workers.
Vive la evolución!
May 31, 2009 9:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Correction: Solving our long-standing labor issues would NOT be good for the unions, but would be great for the American worker, union and non-union alike.
May 31, 2009 10:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
When I was in HS, a fairly progressive teacher offered the opinion that unions had done a lot of good, but had fallen into the pattern of conceding on most issues in exchange for wage increases. I didn't think about it then, but wouldn't wage increases also increase union revenue?
I've never been in a union. When I read John Sayles' novel, Union Dues, then watched Matewan, I got an inkling of the reality of labor vs management. Talking to relatives in the teachers union, in the railroad workers union and in management fills in the picture with complaints on both sides.
My impression is that American unions suffer from the same sort of bureaucratic bloat as business and government. Like business and government, they will have to become leaner, serve their original purpose or be discarded.
May 31, 2009 9:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Back to Reagan: Greed is good.
It was debated at the time and became the accepted business model in the U.S. Now we see again the result of letting corporations run everything full-tilt boogie.
Greed is not such a good thing because it leads to the powerful taking from the less powerful, who then find themselves with declining expectations of all kinds. Pretty soon the nation fails. The powerful expect to do the same to the rest of the world and then live like gods on mountain tops overlooking their dominions of misery. Really.
Unions go way back before Reagan but they were created to help workers protect themselves from exploitative corporations. Unions stand in the way of corporate greed, so they get some bad press from corporate owned media, and bizarre labor laws from corporate owned government. Corporatists like to influence opinion. And they have their way with people who sit in front of TeeVee sets for an average of 8 1/2 hours a day.
So Red, if you had a business and ran it right, your employees would not want or need a union. If you hired well, and got some good ones you would have to keep them on because they would be making money for you and allowing you to concentrate on driving the company. Respect is a key element to motivating employees in a successul business. Companies that get unions deserve them.
May 31, 2009 10:23 AM | Reply | Permalink