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The Incredible Shrinking Nuns


If I marry, I prefer my husband to be alive. Makes going to bed with him a hell of a lot easier, for one thing.

That being said, there was one point in my teens where I daydreamed about becoming a nun. My eldest sister was becoming a Catholic and there were times when I felt in awe and a bit envious. The ceremony, the let us prays, the faith...that sort of thing. She gave me her CCD booklets to study, wherein I found a lot of stuff about the father, the son, and the holy ghost, and I determined that it was easy to understand the father/son thing, but the ghost made no sense, but that was okay, because I had watched a lot of Scooby-Doo.

I started praying to Jesus, one night, in my long white nightgown, kneeling beside my bed, and I tried to open my heart to him the way my sister's CCD booklet told me to, and then I turned off the lamp on my nightstand (wishing in my heart that I could blow out a candle, instead, because that just seemed so much more appropriate, somehow), and then I went to bed with an open heart and open mind.

The next morning, I awoke with my first ever migraine.

Now, I'm sure the two have nothing to do with each other, but....was the timing not divine, or what?

Anyway, I decided through the years that I'm just not religious. I'm not against the thought of God or Buddha or Allah or anyone else, I'm just not into it enough and, even if I was, I'll be damned if I try to pigeon-hole myself into one little religion. Literally. I'll most likely be damned. I'll decide to become a Catholic only to die and be told at the Gates, "Um, sorry.....Catholics aren't allowed. Go back down there and do ten Hail Mary's, and St. Peter might let you live again to become a Buddhist." Or I'll decide to go to my local Congregational or Unitarian Church only to discover it wasn't DEEP enough, or SERIOUS enough, to warrant God's attention, let alone a backstage pass to his daily concert.

My parents baptized me as a Protestant and I attended Sunday School as a kid, but when it came to my family actually practicing our faith, we pretty much sucked at it. My dad confided in me that the closest he could come to pinpointing himself on the religion map was at "Druid". Years earlier, he had watched Exodus and decided to become Jewish. This lasted all of a few days, because he realized that the only reason he wanted to become Jewish was so that he could be like Paul Newman. He then went through a similar phase after watching Lawrence of Arabia, but with different results. By the time he watched Last Tango In Paris, we were ready to lock him up in the attic. But, I digress. My Protestant mother considered becoming a Catholic once, simply because she found the Pieta so soothing, but once she started reading up on it, she decided being a Catholic was too much work. I tend to agree.

All that being said, I'm rather sad to learn, belatedly of course (these things always come to me belatedly, but without the migraines, thank gawd), that the Catholic Church is losing their religion. Um, their religious women, to be exact.

Seems more and more women want live husbands, and less and less women want humble (albeit pretty)  homes to live in while performing good deeds for little pay.

And this is rather sad.

Myself, I'm thinking it has a lot to do with the Catholic schoolgirl uniform, and less to do with the true calling.

But, call me agnostic.



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With that Avatar are you sure you want to be drawing attention to the hot uniforms?

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Heh, well thanks for not offering me any candy, at least.

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Ha!

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"A 2004 survey by Our Sunday Visitor’s Catholic Almanac showed there were approximately 71,486 nuns in the United States, down 50 percent from the 1960s."

This is misleadingly optimistic as well. U.S. population in mid-60s was fewer than 200,000 and now it's more than 300,000. So doing the tiniest bit of math, if nuns were 140,000 in 60s, now they should be 210,000 to keep keep pace, especially with all those Catholic Latinos rolling in. But it's not 210,000, it's 70,000!

Anyhow, you're too young for this:

"More alarmingly, from the church's point of view, is that the average age of nuns is 70 years old."

So even if your icon is out-of-date as many suspect, you got some time. More gloom:

“'I just don’t think there is the context and the milieu for that kind of institution in today’s world,' said Dr. Helen Rose Ebaugh, a University of Houston sociologist, author of "Women in the Vanishing Cloister" and former president of the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion."

Ouch!

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Ouch, indeed! Thanks, btw, for bringing this up during our chat. As you can see, I spent quite some time last night (this morning?) researching the figures and you are absolutely right: The number of nuns is dwindling in a really big way.

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With good results, Lis. Good topic, good take.

Strange world of nuns! Goodness me!

I left my link out, here it is. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/7463291/

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This is misleadingly optimistic as well. U.S. population in mid-60s was fewer than 200,000 and now it's more than 300,000.

Either you left out a ",000" both times, or you are underestimating the U.S. population by a factor of 1,000.

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My bad!

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I had 3 aunts who were nuns. Two left and later married.

Catholics moved out of the city to the suburbs and decided they preferred supporting mammoth prep schools to supporting convents (hmm... this seemed to happen about the time they became Republicans).

Plus, of course there was no road to equality for nuns within the Catholic Church hierarchy.

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"But, call me agnostic."

Good for you. Be sure to read your Bertrand Russell every night before you go to sleep :)

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That was fun, LisB.
This is the main thing i like about Chatholicm;
Luciano and Fernando Pavarotti sing maybe the most beautiful song in the world. (abbreviated version; there are longer ones to the right)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4mD_EJttQk&feature=related

(i admit i have no clue about the lyrics.)

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One of my favorites too, although I’ve never heard this particular recording before. Forty or fifty years ago I’d probably have been able to tell you something about the lyrics, but my days as a Catholic ended about forty years ago and my Latin is long gone.

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I can't tell you how many former Catholics I've come across over the past year. It's really amazing.

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Bread of Angels,
made the bread of men;
The Bread of heaven
puts an end to all symbols:
A thing wonderful!
The Lord becomes our food:
poor, a servant, and humble.
We beseech Thee,
Godhead One in Three
That Thou wilt visit us,
as we worship Thee,
lead us through Thy ways,
We who wish to reach the light
in which Thou dwellest.
Amen.

It's actually a Gregorian Chant written by Thomas Acquinas. Cesar Frank set it to music, which were hearing at your link. Awesome.

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Gregorian Chants are so haunting. Thank you for the translation, Neo, and thank you, Wendy, for the stunning video. I love Pavarotti, as does my mother.

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Pavarotti made opera familiar to masses of non-opera people somehow. I have a four cd set of gregorian chants. Some times are just right for them, maybe when we yearn for reverence, if not catholicism or formal religion.
BTW, i think many young teens go thru a sense of wanting to be religious. I did. Did some peculiar feading for a fourteen-year-old.

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Thank you boho!!! I will copy it! It is sooo beautiful, and luciano singing with his papa knocked me out.

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This is what piqued my interest in opera (the tenors be dammed):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRuYQ9KRJms

I think it was because "Room With a View" was such a hauntingly beautiful film - that's where I first heard Kanawa's warbling.

Even before that, the Brecht/Weil masterpiece "Dei Drigoshenoper" (Threepenny Opera) rung a bell in my tower:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeBZQcJiLoU&feature=related

"The Ballad of Sexual Dependency" sung by the great Lotte Lenya. Brecht wrote a line that just kills me - how do poets do it?:

"So mancher Mann sah manchen Mann verrecken" (Many a man saw many men perish)

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Good post, LisB

I was raised as an Episcopalian, which is the American branch of the Anglican Church. (Hasn't recognized the King of England as head of the Church since the Revolution.) The ceremony and doctrine are extremely similar to the Catholics. I have always enjoyed the Catholic history and tradition, but I got hooked on science and science fiction at age 11 and have demanded that things be rational and understandable ever since. Like you, I always found the Holy Ghost to be a puzzling intrusion into the otherwise mostly rational Father/Son relationship.

But the tradition is a very powerful thing. The rules for how to behave when going into the church. Crossing yourself. Meditating - oops praying - with prayer beads like a Hindu Yogi. And the cathedrals. Banks used to build buildings that looked a lot like stone cathedrals to give the impression of solidity and permanence. Visiting the Churches and cathedrals involves much the same impulse that sends a lot of us into researching genealogy and family history, I think.

But I'm still an Enlightenment-driven rationalist at heart. It's cold out there in the rational world, and sometimes scary, but as I read more and see others there with me, I know that it's where I belong. It's exploring the universe as a human being.

I still visit a cathedral and light a candle every so often, though and offer a prayer to Mary. I did it while stationed in Germany (Rome, Paris, Frankfurt, Barcelona and little churches in between) and it is a connection to western history, good and bad. The Cathedral on Jackson Square in New Orleans is a great visit, but in recent years it has been closed every time I was in town. Tintern Abbey in Wales and the Welsh National Cathedral (Cardiff) are also good visits. The Abbey, now in ruins, is especially so if you learn a bit of the history before going. It is sort of a three dimensional history of the taming of a piece of the wild Welsh frontier after the Norman Conquest. Makes you wonder who those people clearing and working farms there were. The farms were just the social infrastructure that allowed them to carve and set the stones upon each other.

Thanks for the post. I think I recognize both your attraction and your unwillingness to totally accept assimilation into the Borg. Though perhaps for me if there were a Jeri Ryan there ....

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Thanks for the comment, Rick. When I worked in Manhattan 20 years ago, I was very close to St. Patrick's Cathedral, and even though I wasn't religious, I loved to walk in there on my lunch hour and just gaze around at everything. Sometimes I'd even light a candle, just because it seemed like a lovely thing to do.

Thank you for understanding.

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Rick, I was forced into enrolling in an "Early Christian Art" lecture, per a degree requirement. I thought "how boring...this is going to be torture." Was I wrong - it turned out to be a favorite art history period. And it was the church architecture issue that got to me - utterly fascinating. It was the completely secular Roman public building, the basilica, that set it all off. It was the only building that would allow a large group of people inside at once, and when combined with the dome, such as the Roman Pantheon, the crowd could grow larger. The direct influence of this "pagan" architecture on Church litany and liturgy is profound, down to the tinist detail of church services.

The Hagia Sophia (Church of the Devine Wisdom) was built in AD 537 by Emporer Justinian I, and remained the largest church in the world for a thousand years. The first two domes collapsed by earthquake, and was replaced in AD 562. The great dome then collapsed from an earthquake in 989, and repaired. You have to remember that these building are made by stacking rocks, basically. In fact, if you lay on the floor today in the middle of the great dome of Hagia Sophia, you can see its peremeter is egg-shaped instead of the intended perfect circle. The dome almost fell down after the 989 repair job, but it just settled a great bit to "tighten up."

The the great competitions to build bigger and better cathedrals in Europe. We know how magnificent they are - but the best ones didn't make it, collapsing under their own weight. One might consider the gargantuan expense of building these buildings - sometime draining the economy for two or three generations. No wonder people were poor during the great Medieval era.

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I'm not certain, as I begin this post that what I say here is on-topic, but faith and religion "is" mentioned. I was baptized Lutheran and confirmed Methodist in my early teens. While serving in the Navy, I spent months at sea...Never sighting land. This gives one lots of time to read and think. I enrolled in a college course titled "Introduction To Religions." There was one major text book and the requirement that one read portions of the Bible, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Book of Mormon, etc. By the time I had completed the course, I knew more about the various religions of the world, but had become a true agnostic...How could one avoid going to hell without practicing "all of the above?" Ultimately, I chose to practice the Golden Rule. That seemed like an effective religion without all of the glitz.
As with most of us, I experienced joyful and tragic events through my life. I did pray in thanks for joyful events and I prayed for help when confronted with events I couldn't control. I prayed privately and silently.
A few years ago, I experienced congestive heart failure. Mayo Clinic cardiologists informed me that my life expectancy was one bed-ridden year if I didn't receive a heart transplant. I was told that every effort would made to quickly get me accepted into the Mayo program. Until that event, I had not realized how important "the promise of tomorrow" was! When the end of your existence becomes defined, you lose hope. Had I bought into the various "hereafters" that the religions promised, I believe that my despair would have been greatly alleviated. It was not a sense of fear that I experienced. but the loss of tomorrow.
In conclusion, I wish that I could believe that there is a future after death. I can't. I do know that looking at death as final is a helpless feeling. Tomorrow is only a day away.

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By the time I had completed the course, I knew more about the various religions of the world, but had become a true agnostic...How could one avoid going to hell without practicing "all of the above?" Ultimately, I chose to practice the Golden Rule.

Thanks for "getting" me, Chuck. While I haven't studied religion half as extensively as you, I've read the Bible more than once and also read several books on Buddha, and decided that practicing the Golden Rule and walking the Middle Path were pretty much the same thing.

I am glad to hear you made it through your near-death experience, even without the comforting thought of an after-life. Faith and prayer work for some people; for others, they simply don't. Maybe I'm missing out on something really awesome, but, for right now anyway, I'm content.

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...there was one point in my teens where I daydreamed about becoming a nun. My eldest sister was becoming a Catholic and there were times when I felt in awe and a bit envious....

I started praying to Jesus....

The next morning, I awoke with my first ever migraine.

This description reminds me of a book called The Spiral Staircase by Karen Armstong. Armstrong is a former nun who suffered from undiagnosed epilepsy for years, causing her to regard herself as a freak. She has since become a scholar on the Abrahamic religions, but in this particular book she describes her personal journey from the convent into the secular world. Although she's got a schoolmarmish style, it's a fascinating (and harrowing) book that I couldn't put down.

Not suggesting you have epilepsy, just recommending the book because you might relate to her teen yearning to be struck by the holy lightning bolt. :-)

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Thanks for the suggestion, Gasket. Heh, your talk of the holy lightning bolt somehow made me think of The Godfather, when Michael goes to Italy and gets struck by a different kind of lightning bolt. But, I digress...

;)

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The Catholic church has only Ken Russell to blame.

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Now *that* was some crazy shit, AdAbsurdum. Whoa, Nelly!

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The top benefit of a strict Catholic upbringing is a developed appreciation for sacrilege.

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LOLisimo, Ad.

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LisB: I'm struck by numbers being down in women being religiously "called" to the nunnery, while at the same time, this timeless, if appalling tradition continues -- despite nation or religion of origin -- in which women are adjured to "get thee to a nunnery."
By which I, as well as Shakespeare, mean that women who are judged to be useless to society -- as a function of unfortunate circumstance: alleged sexual sullying (Ophelia), age, stage or financial wherewithall -- are still, to this day, advised to find either the religious or secular version of the nunnery.
Witness, in Charleston, SC, the competition for placement in the Confederate Widow's Home:

"The Confederate Home and College stands one door East of Washington Park. Confederate widows lived here at least until the 1950's. A rather odd site specific art installation touching on the war was placed here during the Spoleto Festival as part of the Places with a Past exhibit in 1991. It is documented in the Book, "Places with a Past."


There is a grotesque quality to this relegation; witness the following:
http://www.charlestonsfinest.com/lists/eventlocations.htm

God's teeth. When will women be valued, at each and every stage of their lives, rather than being warehoused once their sexual viability is judged to be over?????

Recently, I was offered two attic rooms in Charleston -- without regard to my professional reputation, personal reputation, household belonging and pets -- as a "generous" and "fitting" solution to my current circumstances.

IS IT ANY WONDER THAT NUNNERY NUMBERS ARE DOWN?

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Bwak and I have it all figured out. When we're old and gray and "unwanted spinsters", we're going to move to California and start a Bed and Breakfast. Either that, or a full-on commune. Gotta think big, you know?

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Hey Lissy,

I will so join your proposed commune in North Carolina. Only because I keep picturing you saying in your best Hayley Mills impression "I've got a scathingly brilliant idea!" LOL

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That is the most scathingly brilliant little video clip!

Thanks!!

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Count me in, if you will consider North Carolina or Nova Scotia.

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North Carolina could work...

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I vote for coastal North Carolina.

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Looks like there's a franchise opportunity here.

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Definitely coastal. Always coastal. Must.be.on.the.coast.

:-)

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I'm in.

Great post, LisB. Again.

Can't say I blame the nuns, though. Too many rules and regs - and that's just before breakfast, from what I hear. Not to mention the knees wearing out before their time.

Agnostically yours,

the puppy

PS - just as a reminder - ever notice what you get when you spell 'GOD' backwards? Uh huh!

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Hey, every commune needs at least one dog...and one that drives is definitely a bonus!

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Count me in, if you will consider North Carolina or Nova Scotia.

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Nova Scotia could work...

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Hope I don't double-post, having some TPM issues currently, but:

Lis, you might enjoy listening to this episode of This American Life. The nun-related bit starts at somewhere around 43:30.

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Thanks, Dem! The "God and Hockey" episode looks interesting as well. Cool find.

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I thought about being a priest. Then I got laid...

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ah, yes. the Laity.

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The Laity Deity? Thanks, both of you, for making me laugh out loud.

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Sweet and funny:)

Good thing I didn't name my puppy God. Might not have gone over as well as Buddha, but no one seems to have a problem with Buddha.

Did you know that there are Buddhist nuns? I met one a few years ago.

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I love your puppy's name. =D

And, in the case of Buddhists, the nuns are starting to outnumber the monks, according to what I found.

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Well, hell, all this nun-talk's got me down. For a change, rock out with Outkast. If ya can keep still, you are seriously rhythm-challenged. All you shouldn't do a bed and breakfast, you should do a bed-and-juke-joint!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrr81SRhp_s

Please listen!!! It's only 5 paltry minutes out of your lives.

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Excellent song, Wendy!! If we have a B&B, or a commune, I'm putting you in charge of the tunes.

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My life's dream!

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as the bard once put it:

get me to a nunnery

or something like that. really have probs with english accents and all

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Heh heh....God pity the nuns should anyone get YOU to a nunnery, Dickon...

;)

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Seems more and more women want live husbands ..

Maybe. But I can't see why! Anyway, there are fewer priests as well, and other explanations of the social change.

For one thing, it could be that all of those gay men and lesbians who formerly had to seek refuge in religious orders so as to avoid the choice between either (a) an unhappy heterosexual marriage or (b) the scandalous exposure of their sexual orientation through a lifetime of unmarried status and its attendant whispers and ostracism, are now taking advantage of the greater acceptance of gays and lesbians in lay life, and are not running off to the seminaries and convents.

There are also economic factors involved. In the case of women, the traditional economic life-choice was among marriage, the convent, lifetime dependency on relatives or destitution. More economic options and greater possibilities for financial independence makes each of those other options somewhat less attractive than formerly.

While the economic choices for men weren't nearly as stark, they were still real. Prior to social insurance, working class men expected to rely on their children for economic support in their old age. Thus, they had to have families. But the rectory was another option.

The percentage of American households that are comprised of married couple has been in decline for many years. I believe that percentage recently went below 50%. So the idea that the ranks of nuns are dwindling because more women are choosing marriage seems iffy.

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Good points all, Dan. But, I never meant to imply that I thought marriage was stealing nuns away.

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I went to a catholic high school back in the mid 60s. There were many in my city then. Most all are gone now, only three remain. Out of 63 people in my class, two thirds were women. Three entered the convent and ultimately none of the three stayed.

There was a lot of social change going on back then which opened up avenues of opportunity for women which never existed before. The curriculum in our schools was decidedly focused on a career. Academics in particular. The career track for women who wanted to make a meaningful contribution took the direction of the church and teaching. And IMHO they excelled at it. However, social change eradicated the career barriers for women forever and now we have women able to exercise real choices.

So now we have fewer nuns but women have gained their freedom. Thus the logical question. Which is better for women and for the general state of societal equality?

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Easy answer. It's better to be oneself.

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It's only easy if you remain within the available framework. Go outside of that framework and you encounter barriers to independent thought. It's typical that we are bounded by current knowledge and encounter the barriers when we try and expand that knowledge. New and different is hard for us.

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I'd like to close my thread, before it disappears, by saying that I admire nuns, as I admire anyone who works diligently to help their fellow man.

I wrote this post simply because I was shocked at the dwindling numbers of nuns. It's not new news, but it was new to me, and even though I'm not religious, I find it rather sad.

I was profoundly heartened to see the excellent comments here that opened up the discussion even more broadly than I could have ever done myself, and I thank you all for adding your thoughts.

Standing back a bit, when I put this study of dwindling nuns together with the study on dwindling Republicans, I can't help but feel that people in the US are moving towards an independent train of thought, both in politics and religion. I don't see this as a bad thing at all.

In fact, I see it as a good thing. Good people will do good things, whether they walk lockstep with an old ideology, or walk independently with their own conscience guiding them.

So, I'm heartened somehow, and no longer sad.

Thank you all for an enlightening discussion.

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LisB

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There she is, my little one, So quick to be hurt, so quick to grin, Timid, afraid, holding out her hand, Yet many a heart she will always win. Playing, reading, talking to her dolls, Then time for cuddling, time for a kiss. She whispers, “I love you” in my ear, There she goes, my sweet little miss. Blond hair tied up in pert little bows, Skin so soft and smooth like a dove. One minute a tear, next a smile, That’s my child, my littlest love. - Mum

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