All Apologies
(Thanks to Kurt Cobain for the title of my post - RIP, man)
First, I'd just like to make clear that, in this post, I speak solely on behalf of myself. I have many friends here, but none of them are even aware that I'm writing this post and won't be aware of it until after I've published it to my blog.
I normally do not like to call out to specific members of the TPM community in such a public manner, but because I do not have the email addresses of two certain posters by the names of Clearthinker and Newsnag, I am writing to them here.
As many of you know, there was a bit of a brouhaha over the weekend concerning two separate blog posts, and some 'altercations' between CT, Newsnag, myself, and, others. In one post, I jumped all over CT, and then Nag, for what I perceived to be attack behavior. In another post, I made a reference to CT in a somewhat joking manner, and others followed suit, and CT spotted it and jumped in and there was yet another fray.
By the end of the evening, at least one other poster commented that I and my friends were displaying a clique mentality and pretty much said that it wasn't pretty. I've been giving that a lot of thought ever since, and, looking at the whole affair from Clearthinker's point of view, and Newsnag's as well, I can see where there definitely was a pile-on, and I can say that it was very hypocritical of me to accuse CT and Nag of what I myself turned around and did in another post.
CT, you and I have chatted on at least one occasion, many months ago, and we got along pretty well. In days past, we've managed to work out our issues over time, and it's my hope that we can do that again.
I don't always agree with your comments, nor the style in which they are written. I think you know I'm not alone in this. Many folks have suggested to you that you try to word your comments more carefully so as to avoid coming across as condescending. In this particular instance, your first comment at Stilli's post, you also made it seem personal in your statement about Christians by starting out the first two or three paragraphs apparently talking to Stilli alone, and not - as you said later - to Christians as a whole. When you start a comment to another poster with the words "You don't yada yada yada" instead of "Christians don't yada yada yada", it sounds to most of us as though you are speaking directly to the poster. That is what made me jump into the post in Stilli's defense -- not that Stilli had ever needed my defense, as she so ably proved throughout the rest of the evening.
That's my two cents, anyway. We can agree to disagree on your writing style and the points you make in your blogs. But it's my hope we can avoid another evening like this past one, by being more aware of our words, actions, and mindsets - both of us.
My sincere apologies to both of you, and to the entire reader community, for making a mess of things. I will try to be more careful with my comments in the future, and act with more empathy as well.
Peace.
First, I'd just like to make clear that, in this post, I speak solely on behalf of myself. I have many friends here, but none of them are even aware that I'm writing this post and won't be aware of it until after I've published it to my blog.
I normally do not like to call out to specific members of the TPM community in such a public manner, but because I do not have the email addresses of two certain posters by the names of Clearthinker and Newsnag, I am writing to them here.
As many of you know, there was a bit of a brouhaha over the weekend concerning two separate blog posts, and some 'altercations' between CT, Newsnag, myself, and, others. In one post, I jumped all over CT, and then Nag, for what I perceived to be attack behavior. In another post, I made a reference to CT in a somewhat joking manner, and others followed suit, and CT spotted it and jumped in and there was yet another fray.
By the end of the evening, at least one other poster commented that I and my friends were displaying a clique mentality and pretty much said that it wasn't pretty. I've been giving that a lot of thought ever since, and, looking at the whole affair from Clearthinker's point of view, and Newsnag's as well, I can see where there definitely was a pile-on, and I can say that it was very hypocritical of me to accuse CT and Nag of what I myself turned around and did in another post.
CT, you and I have chatted on at least one occasion, many months ago, and we got along pretty well. In days past, we've managed to work out our issues over time, and it's my hope that we can do that again.
I don't always agree with your comments, nor the style in which they are written. I think you know I'm not alone in this. Many folks have suggested to you that you try to word your comments more carefully so as to avoid coming across as condescending. In this particular instance, your first comment at Stilli's post, you also made it seem personal in your statement about Christians by starting out the first two or three paragraphs apparently talking to Stilli alone, and not - as you said later - to Christians as a whole. When you start a comment to another poster with the words "You don't yada yada yada" instead of "Christians don't yada yada yada", it sounds to most of us as though you are speaking directly to the poster. That is what made me jump into the post in Stilli's defense -- not that Stilli had ever needed my defense, as she so ably proved throughout the rest of the evening.
That's my two cents, anyway. We can agree to disagree on your writing style and the points you make in your blogs. But it's my hope we can avoid another evening like this past one, by being more aware of our words, actions, and mindsets - both of us.
My sincere apologies to both of you, and to the entire reader community, for making a mess of things. I will try to be more careful with my comments in the future, and act with more empathy as well.
Peace.
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Oh my, I go away for a little while and there's brouhaha's a brewing.
June 8, 2009 6:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Heh...yeah, they happen now and again. It's my hope I won't be the cause of any future ones, though.
Welcome back, Prof. Good to see ya.
June 8, 2009 6:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
There once was a girl named LisB,
who said sorry to a guy named CT,
She gave it her best,
Now he must pass the test,
And invite us all over for tea.
June 8, 2009 7:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lovely limerick, there, Donal!
June 8, 2009 7:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sounds good to me.
Nice sentiments
June 8, 2009 7:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice LisB.
I am not as big-hearted as you are. When people are asshats on a regular basis, I don't think they need or deserve coddling.
But that is apparently, just me.
=D
June 8, 2009 8:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, honey, as you know, to each his or her own. The fact that you and I can be best friends while seeing things differently says a lot, yes no?
Luvz ya. :*
June 8, 2009 8:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yez. I call it enabling. Others may see it differently. At any rate, I admire you, as always.
=D
June 8, 2009 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly so.
June 8, 2009 10:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess I missed this episode Lis. Good to look at things from different perspectives, and if amends are required, land in a genuine place.
June 8, 2009 8:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Glad you missed it, Gary. I hope many others did too.
June 8, 2009 8:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've been thinking about Clearthinker too. I really am concerned about him; but he is frankly so TOUCHY that even saying you want to give him some slack usually gets you a rebuke. I honestly don't know what he's looking for, but I agree with you; the potential is there, and I would welcome some honest back and forth.
Regarding Newsnag I have only read insulting comments, so I don't know what to say, but am not inclined towards conversation.
This is one thing that keeps coming back to me though:
Background -- I am 62 years old. I went to 5 different schools from grade 9 to grade 12, which is a difficult time to keep switching friends.
In my senior year of high school, in Springfield Virginia; (I was a newbie once again, and trying really hard to make friends) there was a girl that "everyone" called BOZO because she used to pull her hair into Bozo-like pigtails. EVERYONE called her that, even to her face! She always had a smile, and never seemed to mind, but I always felt terrible for her. I can still, sort of, remember her tentative smile.
It is my fervent wish that she is happy, successful, feels good in her skin, and very fashionable (if that is her choice). I think about her often after all these years, and feel ashamed for anything I might have done to make those high school years more painful than they might have otherwise been.
That is part of the reason why I tried to connect with CT. He was already too hurt to respond, but unaware of the hurt he had dealt out. It goes both ways, CT -- you need to learn empathy, which in reviewing your many comments, I see you are lacking.
You made fun of my "teachable moment" comment. Go back a re-read it.
June 8, 2009 8:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was a pretty popular kid in school up until my teens. Then I suddenly had a growth spurt, acne, glasses, braces, and kids found out I really sucked at sports. Last one picked for any team, last girl to ever get invited to a dance...the once sunny kid turned inward and slouched around the high school hallways hunched over her heavy books.
I was called "Pizza Face", told that soap existed so why don't I use it, and had so-called friends set me up to think that the popular guy I had a crush on actually liked me back, only to find out the hard way that it was a joke.
I got over all that eventually. Wasn't easy, but I did. Oh, of course, some of it carries over to this day. But I've been working hard at my self-esteem, and with years come wisdom and self-love. Also, with years, comes the ability to feel for others and realize that being condescending and cruel usually ends up biting one in the ass. Now, I kinda like having my ass bitten when the timing's right, heh heh...but only then.
I wrote this apology because when I was told I was acting clique-ish, it brought all those old memories back home.
This really has nothing to do with CT, I'm sure, but more to do with your Bozo. I hope she's happy too, CVille. And in fact, I'll bet she is.
June 8, 2009 9:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
And, CVille...my sincere condolences, honey. {{{HUG}}}
You are one helluva strong and awe-inspiring lady.
June 8, 2009 9:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are a good woman, Lis...I am impressed that you chose to apologize when a good case could be made that it should have been the other way around.
I have reread the entire 407 comment thread 3 times, trying to figure out how it could have been managed better, and even Monday morning quarterbacking, I can't see it, short of allowing rude, obnoxious and condescending comments, followed shortly by personal attacks to go unchallenged.
I don't know who Newsnag is, but he/she came in making comments that showed they knew nothing of the people involved, making assumptions not based in fact, and being pretty aggressive for someone who is unknown. Given that, I didn't find the rebuttal comments to be offensive in the least.
CT is very intelligent and often articulate, and often makes good contributions to conversations. The truth is, the thread was pretty slow until he and eds showed up. I was really enjoying the debate, but, then something set him off and he went from being merely thoughtless, rude and condescending (which I can handle in reasonable doses, and did for many hours...literally!) to suddenly going sideways and getting downright mean. Eventually he was able to completely sidetrack the debate, attack everyone participating, and I had no choice but to ignore him, which really put a damper on the thread. Fortunately the following morning we got in some reasonable conversation, putting things back on track, until he showed up again.
It is socially unacceptable to act like that. You should not be able to be a complete ass on someone else's blog. If you want to put up a post and then crap on everyone who shows up, more power to you. Then we have the ability to walk away if we don't like how we are being treated. But to have to walk away from your own post is just WRONG. The "groupthink" of a "clique" was accused of stifling debate, and I couldn't disagree more. The debate was lively and rousing on a topic that was sure to get hot. But to come in with the attacks...talk about stifling debate! He was throwing elbows all over the place. We've tried to reason with him. At no time has ANYONE insisted that he agree with with them, just that he make his points w/o attacking or belittling. At some point in time it is perfectly acceptable that he be spanked for his behavior.
Thanks for listening...and again Lis...you are a good woman.
June 8, 2009 9:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with you, Stilli, that this place is supposed to be treated like someone's living room, or a group discussion at a public place (bar, reading room, library where you aren't shushed, what have you) and that when someone shows up and starts acting out, they should be reminded that they are entering a discussion amongst peaceful parties and therefore act accordingly.
Same with a chat room.
Personal attacks in the Cafe should be treated as abuse. I am in total agreement.
But I made a careless joke of it in another thread, and that helped cause what happened in your own thread. I therefore take some responsibility.
It's my hope that this post, if nothing else, makes everyone think twice about how they approach any given post when they comment. Me included.
Thanks for the kind words and thanks for sticking up for yourself. I admire your strength. And I luvz ya.
June 8, 2009 9:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
But I made a careless joke of it in another thread, and that helped cause what happened in your own thread. I therefore take some responsibility.
LisB, you are one kind-hearted person! But don't take responsibility for that which you didn't create or cause. What you wrote in the Limerick post came long after the mayhem in Stilli's blog started. (LisB's post in the Limerick blog was on June 7, 3:47 PM. Stilli published her blog June 6, 3:12 PM).
A number of people tried to get clearthinker to turn around and they not only failed, but were attacked for their efforts. CT couldn't see that he was the source of the problems and blamed everyone else for them continuously. This is a pattern that is repeated in every post he gets involved in and it has yet to resolve itself in CT's favor.
June 8, 2009 10:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also.
C'Ville and Still's threads are hardly the only ones ruined by his rudeness.
Forgive me, but I doubt they'll be the last.
June 8, 2009 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
"The truth is, the thread was pretty slow until he and eds showed up."
Yikes! :-)
I'm glad you found the debate such as it was to be lively after that. I was away after about 8pm on the 6th so I missed the record setting(?) later innings... My favorite comments were Bwak's 'Codswallop' and CT's total snafu with blockquotes (purely on a graphic design basis).
And I still don't know what small-c christian amounts to, but I can let it go...
June 9, 2009 12:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
eds, truth be told, I didn't even see your comments.
All's well here on my end with you.
June 9, 2009 1:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
LisB,
Everytime you post, it's as if you're sitting with a friend and having this wonderful conversation. No matter the topic. Just a nice 'chat' with someone (many) who you care about.
Kinda like a virtual hug as it seems.
Didn't read all you referenced so won't comment on the particulars (although will say I've never known you to ever attack or willfully create needless pain for anyone).
June 8, 2009 9:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lis - thought i had commented but see i never did. so sorry - i loved your wording - you are a great gal and i think people got caught up in the moment last night and lots of things were said back and forth. Don't hold yourself to blame entirely - maybe everyone who took part will read your blog and agree. You would never hurt someone intentionally! I, as your Mum, know that.
June 8, 2009 9:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Awww, shucks, Mum. Thanks. Hey, I learned how to apologize a long time ago, from the best. When you know you've done some wrong thinking, you have to correct it. You did it, and you taught me how to.
I did wrong thinking last night by trying vainly to get the last word in, by allowing someone to get under my skin, and by sitting by and laughing while all of it went on.
Doesn't mean CT was right in certain things he said, mind you, and I won't forget that he wrote some pretty crappy comments, but....I didn't have to willingly give same for same.
It's best to back off and walk away when that stuff happens, and instead of putting my hat on and walking away, I goaded him and sunk to a level that I wish I hadn't.
Lesson learned: Rise above the fray, and apologize for dragging others down, the next day.
June 8, 2009 9:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I read that whole thread last night, too. In fact, I followed along as it was progressing but I chose not to get involved. I can understand the frustration when someone hijacks a thread and keeps the argument going on such a personal basis, but I had to wonder why nobody thought to "ignore"?
Ironically, the thread was supposed to be light-hearted and fun and it could have gone on without all of the "piling on", as you say, if everybody had just chosen to ignore the hijacker.
I don't understand people like CT, and I don't want to talk about him right now, but it seemed to me that all of that fuss just fuels the fire. I personally don't like to see anybody made fun of, no matter how frustrating or obnoxious they are, and I usually just go somewhere else when it happens--but I have to admit, I did come back often to see where the thread was going. I was amazed at how long the back-and-forth went on.
I'm not saying any of this to make you feel bad. (I think you're doing pretty well in that department all by yourself!) But I personally hate seeing a unique place like TPM fall into that nasty trap. There will always be instigators. I don't understand why, but every forum I've ever been on had the select few who love to push buttons. The thing they hate most, I think, is to be ignored. Seems like the perfect punishment to me!
But don't be too hard on yourself, please. It got out of hand, sure, but there were no scattered bodies this morning and nobody went to jail. That's something, don't you think?
June 8, 2009 10:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I'm glad there was no jail and certainly glad for no bail, cuz Mum and I are broke, LOL...
Someone, I think it was Donal, sent me an email a long time ago entitled "Don't Feed The Trolls" and it was a news piece about blogging and letting badly behaving posters get under your skin.
My main apology has to do with the fact that I did not ignore CT's poor behavior, my second point is that I helped goad it on in the long run, and my third is that, yeah, he's a person too, and much as CT might need some schooling on social skills, I don't want to treat him the way I was treated in school. Hence, my apology.
If he reads this, great. If not, I still feel better for having said I am sorry.
June 8, 2009 10:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
The problem with ignoring CT, Ramona, is that when he is behaving, he is VERY interesting, and I find myself giving him a chance, time, after time, after time, thinking, okay, he's engaging me, he knows how I feel about his aggressiveness, maybe this time will be different, and of course it never is. By the time I realize I've been sucked in again, it's too late.
I stayed waaaaay away from him on C'Ville's blog...harder to do when it's on your own, and he's made some good points that you really want to discuss with the "nice" him...
June 9, 2009 12:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Stilli, I don't have any problem with discussing anything with anybody. My point is that when it gets to the "pushing buttons" stage, it's just not worth it and it adds nothing to the discussion. Then it's just a brouhaha and I lose interest.
June 9, 2009 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
But I do like that word, brouhaha. I use it whenever I can, and I like saying it out loud, too.
June 9, 2009 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Me too! It so much more interesting than "fight!"
And I get your point, I just hate it when a post that I'm enjoying (mine or not) gets hijacked by meanness. We're in synch, I think...uh oh, there goes that rhyming again!
June 9, 2009 12:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
If anyone is wondering why Clearthinker isn't here. It is because it can be really painful to find out that people care about you.
June 8, 2009 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Beautifully said, CVille.
June 8, 2009 10:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do believe there is a good guy down in there somewhere, I've seen glimpses of him. Any suggestions how to deal with him other than ignore, without sounding too "motherly" or condescending?
June 9, 2009 12:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
LisB, I always support people in sincere apologies because they are so hard to do, and so rare. I believe that regardless of whether others feel one is needed or not, it is what WE feel that is important. When we give a sincere apology, it is not always because we were "wrong," but because what we did or said may have been misinterpreted and caused harm where it was not intended. Making a sincere apology means taking accountability for our own actions. You therefore have my respect, and support, in writing this. It does take a bravery and integrity, and that is fully reflected in what you have written here.
However, you also raise an eternal problem with online communication. It most frequently occurs in email, comments, and on forums. These are informal communications where all that is present is the words on the screen. There are no modifiers or informers (facial expression, body posture, tone of voice). Frequently there is no personal context. We do not know the people, their lives, or what has happened that day. And they do not know ours either. All we have is words on the screen and the interpretation of those words within the context of the other communication, what we know (if anything) of previous comments, how that individual has responded or communicated in the past, and the words on the screen.
Added to that, we have the problems that response may be both short, and fast. Often not a lot of care goes into the response. Often it is shooting off a quick response and moving on.
Added to that... we take responses to ourselves, those we like or agree with, and issues that we are highly invested in, PERSONALLY.
What we end up with is an emotional time bomb ready to go off.
I have fallen afoul of this more times than I can count. I then try to keep all of this in mind as I read and write on line. But even with that, I blow it sometimes. We all do. It helps a lot if we take keep in mind the inherent problems of this disembodied communication forum.
Thank you LisB for modeling integrity, accountability, and good communication.
June 8, 2009 11:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Rowan, for understanding. And for being so in-depth. I guess it takes a water-dweller...
It's, as you say, easy to forget that we're all humans here, and not just chickens, or dogs, or cats, or yin-yang symbols, or anything else we use to represent ourselves.
We are selves, and each deserve respect in our own right for being so.
Bless you for your thoughtful comment, and bless us all.
June 9, 2009 12:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lis, we're all humans, and we are all selves deserving of respect. However, we also are humans who have to be responsible and respect other humans and selves as well. That part is also lacking at times, even aside from those folks think that comments and forums are just opportunities to "fight."
I think that what your post represents is the willingness to think about how our communication might be received. I hope that all of us who operate in the "on line environment" would do the same. The real truth of any form of communication is not what we meant, but how people interpret it.
I fully agree that behind the avatars lie real people with real lives and real feelings. Even those of us who think we have gotten a "thick skin" are often wounded in the exchanges. Sometimes, just a bit of care in thinking about how what we write may be received can make a world of difference.
On the lighter side, I am not just a a water dwelling manatee - I'm a Cancerian. Go figure, in real life I hate swimming - sink like granite.
June 9, 2009 12:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
When I swim, my ass always stays above water. Gets kinda embarrassing, actually. ;)
June 9, 2009 1:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
All I can think of are those water wings. hahahahahhaahah
June 9, 2009 12:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, gee, next time you go swimming, be sure to take me with you...You're guaranteed not to drown ;)
June 9, 2009 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Women generally float due to higher fat content. (Body tissues are close to the same density as water, with bone and muscle being more dense, and fat being less dense.) Young men generally sink. The older one gets, the more fat one tends to carry.
I used to sink, now I am probably neutral....
June 9, 2009 1:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you can just search for Quinn's comments and get the idea of how painful it is to try to take CT seriously. Perhaps if he/she pared his/her self-assurance down about 50% and slowed down typing about the same, something reasonable could come from it. Instead it's just pretentious "I'm right, you're wrong" no matter what nonsense has been written.
NewsNag is just an attack dog, good if you own a junkyard, not much worthwhile otherwise.
June 9, 2009 2:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lis,
I feel that I have some responsibility here and I am a little perplexed as to why you feel compelled to apologize. If you review Stilli's excellent thread you will find that it was one of the first to irritate and then taunt CT. It was I that asked 'what compels atheists to preach', it was I that said that CT was equally a man of faith for his ardent belief that god does not exist. And it was I that first called him a prick- Which is what he is.
I don't disagree that he has an interesting viewpoint, or that he is an intelligent person, hell I would even say that sometimes he is right. But he didn't like my comments (or Eds, or Zip's, or Quinn's, or Miguel's) and as a result became an insecure jerk spouting Asinine know-it-all statements and...well a prick . TPM cafers piled on because he is an asshole. (see Quinn's comments).
What is impressive is that even calling him out, most commenters kept extending CT an olive branch (in fact sometimes (2x) it was even clearly stated 'olive branch')- he didn't take it. He kept lecturing history. 'invisible friend', etc.
Even at the end Quinn tried to make peace when Stilli's blog went over 400 comments (check it out). But at the same time on another blog the prick laughs off the death of Cville's mom.
Fuck him.
Sure we all see it for his own insecurity and immaturity. But so what? We expect mature adults here and I certainly don't think we should defend such behavior or apologize for the rest of us calling a spade a spade. News nag jumped in late and only looked at the top of the thread. I understand the impulse to defend- but it doesnt change anything.
I hope CT grows up too. However, I am certain that you have nothing to apologize for.
Frankly, I wish you wouldn't.
June 9, 2009 3:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for that. I just felt the need to apologize and so I did. And now I'm done.
June 9, 2009 8:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
LisB,
Part of the fun of writing limericks is violating social taboos. If someone is sensitive to that idea they should avoid the limerick business. I’m saying that while playing with words that way, that particular game inherently brings out those kinds of retorts, on purpose. I agree that we all are sensitive to pricks, but any taboo is welcome in a limerick.
Bwak and others actually changed the tone and began making limericks that were quite sweet and funny and praising of others. And then even that idea was attacked. See what I mean? That’s how they work. That is the nature of limericks.
In the context of limericks, all went as predicted by poets. The only problem was that the two objectors didn’t want to write any limericks. All non-limericians should be ignored in a limerick contest. HA!
Your true self is beautiful, and the blame lies elsewhere. It’s really the fault of poets!
June 9, 2009 4:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ah!!! NOW ya tell me! Heh heh...
Thanks, Frog.
June 9, 2009 8:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
In the words of a famous street philosopher, "Can we all just get along"? That's not to say, some people deserve to be slapped! Just saying...
June 9, 2009 9:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
LOL! Thanks for that. And, by the way, I've been laughing at your username since you first started posting....just sayin'.
June 9, 2009 9:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
In general, people are too sensitive about things said on the innertubes. I think one of the primary function of these series of tubes is to be a laboratory to try on new ideas, personas, opinions, etc., all from the removed comfort of our keyboards.
June 9, 2009 10:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just reread that thread, Lis, and frankly don't think you OWED anyone an apology. But then again, you're a generous soul...
CT seems to like it when it gets rough, which is fine if it stays interesting in terms of substance. But he got boring really quick, and I left. The thread turned out to be quite an entertaining read, though.
June 9, 2009 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just don't confuse that "CT" with me. :-)
June 9, 2009 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was just thinking that you might want to change your name...CT and ct could be easily confused, and there are those of us who like to use lower case as a pejorative, like msm.
June 9, 2009 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
LisB sat at home with her worry,
So she came back and said she was sorry.
She did wht she wanted
So she wouldn't be haunted;
And now she just rubs her cat's furry.
I'm with you, Lis; sometimes it is the better part of valor is just to take claim of any negative contribution one might have made to a situation. I heartily agree with the person upstairs who reminded me that limericks are supposed to be bawdy and over the top, and even coming to a limerick thread should be reserved for those in that state of mind.
That said, I repeat for the umpteenth time, that yours was not cruel or even slightly mean. I appreciate this thread, though, and all the ideas it brought to the table.
June 9, 2009 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
this stuff is takin wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to serious by some people.
sure you can come here and make comments and maybe open a few minds to truth.
but what happens here is nothing more then that.
people should not think or pretend that it is more.
motive wants reactions.
no motive= it doesnt matter.
it is what it is.
simple.
June 9, 2009 3:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I spend most of my days as a lurker
But I don't want to be a real shirker
The thread was sublime
(the reading took time)
You were lovely, LisB, not a jerker.
June 9, 2009 3:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
No need to apologize to me, LisB. "Come as you are" seems an appropriate Nirvana song in response.
June 9, 2009 4:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
LisB, it's obvious the world, with a few cloudy-thinking exceptions, loves you. You should feel better. Bless you, and your numerous supporters.
June 9, 2009 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think it was fully understood that when you attack religion in a matter that attacks people for their beliefs, you cross a line. The accuser ends up reading you a long list of crimes that you are not part of, but you are guilty by association. It is a kind of intimidation.
I remember posting on usenet in the early 90s... talk about the wild west! You develop a pretty thick skin in that environment, and you learn to pick apart what is true and what is misleading.
I've lost my head before in this and other places. There are certain buttons that you can push on anyone that will make them see red. For CT, I think it can be pinpointed to when Bwakfat called his reasoning codswallop, which completely denied CT even the appearance of clarity. I think it spanked his pride. It'll heal.
You, LisB, are good to worry about your own behavior... but the web brings it out of us. The entire physical grammar of communication is gone, plus the deceit factor can be magnified.
June 9, 2009 5:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hardly.
Saying "all christian are the same" is nonsense, insulting, and rude, (not to mention ignorant.) I wasn't the only one that pointed that out, and my comment was made after he said it a few times. I refrained from commenting at his rudeness at all on the Limerick thread, instead I concentrated on keeping it light and fun, until he started in being horrid with Lis and C'Ville. He crossed the line. Not anyone. Him. Lis is lovely, but they'll be no "apologies" from this chicken. CT is very good at slinging insults, not so good at handling them. That is on him, and I don't mollycoddle jerks or suffer fools gladly. I don't expect anyone to coddle me.
Frankly, it ain't my problem.
Old usenet, eh? Me too. There's an old saying, "if you can't stand the heat..."
Now if someone tells me black is white, I'll likely say "codswallop" again. Just sayin.
June 9, 2009 8:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you all for the encouraging comments. Now you know why I love this place so much.
Peace,
Lis
June 9, 2009 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't forget, CT has what he terms alternate "characters"
CT posts as a "character" - a role.
See here for the quote:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/therap/2009/01/can-americans-be-happy-with-le.php#comment-3358768
When many, including LisB post sincerely and honestly, but some, such as CT post as a character, assuming a role, that undermines trust and civil discourse.
It's against the terms of use. And it's not what you expect in a blog like the one Stilli put up.
I'm commenting very little at the moment. But I've chosen to remind everyone of what CT admitted to some months ago.
LisB, you apparently felt badly about your role over the weekend. It's clear from comments here that many, myself included, feel you had no need to apologize. But you felt a need. And I totally respect that.
I've written what I did above on a previous occasion. And I'll write it again if need be. Because when users at the Cafe deliberately choose to pose as a character, behave in condescending and anti-social ways, and use multiple ID's in addition to that, then it's destructive and childish, and should either be ignored or confronted. But not pandered to.
June 9, 2009 5:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
TheraP, I admire you and recognize your contribution here. It is large. But, we are not your clients, and I think you need to remember that. I mean that in what I hope is a productive way. I sense you feel the need to come in and do group therapy, which is admirable, but some of us did not sign up for that, which constitutes an involuntary commitment. This is not group therapy, it's a blog, so the rights of those who disagree must be respected.
Kate
June 9, 2009 7:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you had any sense of the vitriol that occurred between Thera and CY, you wouldn't say that. He was brutal to her.
June 9, 2009 8:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why are you doing this?
June 9, 2009 8:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me expand. There are those who come here for interesting exchanges, and there are those who come here for verification and validation. I am in the former group. Bwak, I am allowed to respond the TheraP critically. I find her dominance of this site oppressive, ok? The fact that she is your friend doesn't mean much to me in this venue. Sorry.
June 9, 2009 8:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Am I not allowed to disagree? Excuse me?
I don't understand.
Thera and I are not "friends." We like and respect each other. I don't have her email, and she doesn't have mine.
What is your point here? Seems to me, you slammed me for being superficial. Am I allowed to react to that, or will you just accuse me of being part of a "clique" and declare victory? Wow. Pretty simple. Maybe I'll try that sometime.
Frankly, I kind of think you are the one being superficial.
June 9, 2009 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just pointing it out. Maybe I am just being "edgy?"
=D
It seems to me Kate, that this particular complaint of yours is nothing new. It's also a bit silly. There have been "cliques" at TPM since it's inception. Josh plans on hosting a chat room in a few weeks. Why? Because he likes the sense of community here. He came to chat to say so. Of course, some would say he likes the "clique." Whatever that is.
Clearthinker got warned off his board because he basically stalked Thera. I thought your comment to her was perfunctory and unfair, so I threw the ball back at you.
I understand you are going through a tough time, but if the above comment pricked your sensibilities, you have no call to call anyone out on their sensitivity. I am sure you had no idea how brutal CT is, and has been, to Thera. CT can make Billy Glad look like a Boy Scout.
Just sayin.'
I like and admire you. I just think you are waaaay off base here.
June 9, 2009 8:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let's see what TheraP has to say. She gets the final word, right?
June 9, 2009 9:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
OK.
June 9, 2009 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I come in peace, you are my friend. I hope.
June 9, 2009 9:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know it. I really do respect you so much. But, as in real life, folks CAN disagree about things, even very important things, and still appreciate each other.
I value poise and professionalism. You epitomize it. I do see your point, truly, but some people are incapable of civil disagreement. I stay away from them in "real" life, too.
=D
Just sayin'
June 9, 2009 9:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hear ya. Really I do.
June 9, 2009 10:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I had missed that character business, Thera, so thanks.
June 9, 2009 8:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Donal, during the primary it was obvious that there were many "false" characters here. Pirate Peet, MonicaL, Donner, Crankypants, and many more. It was funny, and interesting. I miss that. TPM has become somber, and self indulgent, and hypercritical, and intolerant of anything but group think. It has lost its sense of humor. I don't come here as often, because it has become soft and mushy and feel goody, until someone sets the pack on edge. "Do we all agree that Obama has disappointed us? Please, brothers and sisters, say aye." That kind of thing. Now there are a few lunatics, like Rutabaga, who I like in a masochistic way, but the moderate troublemakers have left. I don't know how much more time I will spend here, but it used to be a vibrant place, and its takeover by people who want to control the message is a bit too much.
June 9, 2009 8:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't mind opposing viewpoints, but having one doesn't justify behaving badly.
June 9, 2009 8:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, I agree, although "behaving badly" is a bit subjective, no?
June 9, 2009 9:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not really. There are pages and pages describing the various types of attention-seeking trolls.
June 9, 2009 10:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Donal, during the primary it was obvious that there were many "false" characters here. Pirate Peet, MonicaL, Donner, Crankypants, and many more. It was funny, and interesting. I miss that. TPM has become somber, and self indulgent, and hypercritical, and intolerant of anything but group think. It has lost its sense of humor. I don't come here as often, because it has become soft and mushy and feel goody, until someone sets the pack on edge. "Do we all agree that Obama has disappointed us? Please, brothers and sisters, say aye." That kind of thing. Now there are a few lunatics, like Rutabaga, who I like in a masochistic way, but the moderate troublemakers have left. I don't know how much more time I will spend here, but it used to be a vibrant place, and its takeover by people who want to control the message is a bit too much.
June 9, 2009 8:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
sorry, we are having crazy storms here, guess there was a burp.
June 9, 2009 8:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
KateO - As a long-timer here at the Cafe, I have a certain amount of sympathy for what you evidently see as the downward trajectory in the heart and soul of the Cafe. If you include all the software iterations, it is safe to say the Cafe looks and feels completely different from when I first arrived, too.
Of course, I don't know of any community that stays the same without withering on the vine. Where you see somber, and self indulgent, and hypercritical, and intolerant of anything but group think, I see smart funny people arguing over every little policy tweak or political event. Others keep us going with tales of Roundish Tables, conservative families and a regular barnyard of pets.
It's your choice on what you see and perceive. I don't see the value in blaming the posters here for your unhappiness, but that's just my personal opinion.
Likewise, if you want to see real people with real beliefs, no matter how far-fetched that notion is in the case under discussion, you're probably pretty safe doing it through the Cafe. If I see insanity taking place, I don't feel compelled to call it something else because it makes you feel better. I do hope you are more careful in making such judgments in your outside life, though. Just sayin'.
June 9, 2009 10:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, do we have different views and memories. I found the group think during the primaries absolutely oppressive here. Any so called group think or cliquish behavior now pales in comparison to the piling on and efforts to drive people off this board during the primary.
The efforts to cleanse this site of dissidents reached its pinnacle with the spam campaign. Surely you haven't forgotten people spamming dissidents blogs with recipes, encyclopedic cut and pastes, dictionaries of Chaucerian English, etc? It wasn't stopped until several people complained to management and a person got banned for it.
Perhaps you were part of those campaigns or a tacit supporter and therefore don't see how harsh the environment was for dissidents then. Past is past, I'm not complaining or looking for apologies or pity. Those who stuck around though that period survived quite well. Just putting out my very different view of what this site was like during the primaries.
Maybe you felt it was vibrant then but as one of the few Hillary supporters here I felt the intolerance oppressive. I find it amusing that one who was considered of no value and disruptive to this community and who boar a large part of the attempts to silence back then, Seaton, now often gets his blogs on the rec list. I find this community to be much more tolerant of dissenting view points now.
June 10, 2009 2:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, memories differ. As an Obama supporter I was called an Obamanaut, a Koolaid drinker, a blind follower of the false prophet--any number of insults. I think the blows were evenly distributed.
June 10, 2009 9:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hard for me to see how the blows could possibly be evenly distributed when the ratio of Obama to Hillary supporters was about 10 to 1 here in the last couple of months of the democratic primary. We are just talking about this site not every site on the web combined. Not one Hillary supporter ever tried to silence the last few remaining Obama supporters by making it nearly impossible to dialog on their blogs by spamming them with encyclopedic cut and pastes and no Hillary supporter was banned for that practice.
You might want to consider that the side you're on is coloring your perceptions than and now.
June 11, 2009 7:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Most of us offer who we are honestly.
CT is a poser, and pointing that out is
appreciated. Thank you, :-)
June 9, 2009 9:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
How do you know that? Just asking? I believe CT is a real person with real beliefs. Just because you don't agree with him/her doesn't mean anything. Just please think about it.
June 9, 2009 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have, Kate, which is why I wrote this post.
June 9, 2009 11:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kate, my problem w/ CT has nothing to do with whether I agree w/ him or not. This would be a pretty boring place if we all agreed on everything. We are a diverse group, and I just don't see the wholesale groupthink or stifling of viewpoints that is being talked about.
CT has a terrible habit of coming in and overthrowing a whole blog with his manner. He is rude, offensive, he twists everything, and if he can't be in control, he attacks and completely upends the thread. I don't know if you read my blog the other night. It started off great, but about half way through it he went sideways.
It is socially unacceptable, and people should not have to walk away from their own blogs because of his bad behavior. Part of the problem is he has so much to offer and I REALLY wanted to debate him on the subject at hand, but by the time we were getting into the really good stuff, he had gone ballistic.
So if there is any groupthink, it is that the group wants to debate, not brawl or be attacked.
No one had any opposition to his points (and some were really good) it was the way he acts. No one should have to accept his bullying. So many people just stayed away from my blog because of the bruhaha...it's not right.
June 9, 2009 11:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
The way I see this place, and the way I see any chat room, for that matter, is that it's like you're walking into either a living room (like Missy's place, with the ugly blue chair, and Sox, and you should bring some wine or beer), or into a storefront bookstore that serves coffee and has sofas.
You learn about the people, you listen to the conversation, you interact socially, you give and take your viewpoints with one another...
That's what I thought TPM Cafe was.
When someone steps into the room at a party and becomes the guy with the lampshade on his head or, worse, the club in his hand, of COURSE people are going to react.
I wrote this post to let CT know that I am willing to give him another chance at the olive branch. So far, he has not taken it. So far, everyone else has had their say about this place. And it's been a great discussion.
I no longer apologize to anyone. I'm here, I've been here, I will remain here, and if someone doesn't like me, well, let them step up and say so, but let them know too that this IS a community, like it or not. And it's NOT a clique. It's a meeting place.
Let's meet and discuss but let's not trash each other. Let's have some respect for each other, just as we would in someone's home.
Last I heard, this home belongs to Josh. The fact that it's here means a lot. Let's respect it, and each other.
/rant off, and good night, and thanks for the great comments and feedback. Let this post die now.
June 10, 2009 12:47 AM | Reply | Permalink