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Torture IS Torture


All of our many blogs on torture over the past few days, and the many, many comments attached, have gotten me thinking about America's humanity as a whole.  Well, the world's humanity, as a whole.

We haven't always been kind creatures, that's for damn sure.  But one thing I had always felt pride in, about our country, was that we seemed to value human dignity.

This past week, we've all discovered an underbelly that leaves us breathless and angered -- heh, shocked and not so awed, even.

To argue back and forth as some of us have over what is torture is somewhat pointless.  It's like Bill Clinton asking for a definition of "is".  Torture IS torture.

To try to put it in a grand scale is pointless.  That's what these lawyers and doctors did, when they wrote out their "rules".  There is no grand scale when it comes to personal pain.

Like, take just me, for instance.  I grew up without any physical abuse of any kind, other than one smack on my ass from my mother when I said something fresh around the age of 9, and a smack across the face when I brought a guy home at 3AM when I was in my teens, not knowing my mother was awake and waiting up for me.  Hey, he was just coming over to use our pool, LOL, but that didn't matter.  I was 17 and Mum had a good reason to be upset.  The fact that these are the only two times I was ever reprimanded physically, though, is what I remember -- and am grateful for, because so many other people I know, especially in my age group, remember so much worse.

So, looking back I can honestly and easily say I didn't suffer physical abuse at the hands of my parents.  My ex-boyfriend out in California, however, he was another story.  Now, I had taken pride in the fact that my only other long-term boyfriend before him had never dared hit me (although, he did shoot a handgun off in our apartment, aiming somewhat in my general direction once, but carefully landed his bullet in a two by four in the wall instead).  I had seen firsthand what other women in my family had gone through, and I just knew deep down that I would never, ever take any physical abuse from anyone who claimed to love me, let alone just anyone.

So when I found myself one day getting grabbed and pushed by my ex-boyfriend in California, my first instinct was to fight back.  Let him know I wasn't about to take that sort of thing.  I remember it clear as day, we were in our bedroom and he had pushed me up against a wall and had squeezed my face between his one very strong hand ("sheet metal-cutting hands, babe, I got STRONG sheet metal-hands, babe, and don't ever forget it") and yelled at me for some infraction or another, and then he nonchalantly let me go and turned his back and my very first instinct was to kick him in the ass and topple him to the ground.  So I tried to.  But he was a former kick boxer ("kick boxer, babe, I've got eyes in the back of my head and you can NEVER get the best of me") and felt me coming at him and he somehow twisted around and grabbed my leg before it could even make contact with him, and he roared as he did so, and somehow I ended up falling backwards, right into the mirrored sliding door of our closet.  Good thing the mirrored sliding door took my fall because otherwise I would've landed on the shoe rack.

I was less shocked by the fact that I fell through the closet door, somehow, than by the tirade that followed.  He told me that I was the woman and he was the man and if I ever let myself forget my place again and decided to fight like a man, well then I'd better be damn sure to be ready to fight like one.  

Heh, and here silly I was, expecting an apology instead.

Over the next few years, you can be damn sure I never tried to fight like a man.  I walked on egg shells around him, to the point where even that would bother him and get him irate enough to push me against a wall and clench my throat tightly with one strong hand ("sheet metal-cutting hands, babe, I've got STRONG sheet metal-cutting hands, babe, and don't you forget it!") and there was one time I couldn't swallow for three days straight without taking a deep breath first and bracing myself for the pain that would follow that swallow.

There was another time he got mad at me and I tried to go outside to our back patio for a cigarette, so that I could just get away from him and calm myself down, but he pulled me by the front of my sweatshirt and ripped it, and when I saw his other hand come towards my face I put my own hands up in self defense, so that what ended up happening was my own fingernail, the ring finger of my right hand, I'll never forget, because that nail, like my pinkie nails, is stronger and sharper than the other ones I either bite or break, it ended up getting knocked into my eyelid when his hand came up and met mine.  So I ripped open my own eyelid, right at the lash line, but didn't even know it until he started looking worried and was asking where all the blood was coming from, and I said, "What blood?" and he had to take me to the bathroom to show me that there was blood pouring out of my eye and landing all over the front of my ripped sweatshirt, and only then did he truly seem remorseful.  And so of course I blamed myself and told him it wasn't his fault, and I went to work the next day with a purple bloated eye and told everyone, "Oh, my boyfriend and I were play-wrassling and I mistakenly cut open my own eyelid with my fingernail, LOL".

And then finally there was that morning that I always think of as The Morning of the Last Choke Hold because this time after the choke hold he stuck a handgun down the waistband of his jeans before leaving for work after choking me and said, "If I get home and you're gone, I'm gonna use this gun -- either on you, or me, or a cop, or all three."

I packed up the second he closed the front door and I haven't seen him since.

Now, I'm not telling you all this to get sympathy.  I'm sure many people here have either been through worse or have a loved one who has.  I'm bringing all this up because, as a woman, I expect a man to treat me with more respect than that, especially if he supposedly loves me.  As a person, I expect anyone to treat me with more respect than that.  As the aunt of a soldier in the Army, I expect prisoners to be treated with a modicum of respect according to the principals that our country used to stand on and believe in.  And as a war criminal prisoner, I would hope that any country that has me in their possession would simply keep me in their possession and not torture me.  Because God forbid (not that I'm religious, I just love that phrase), God forbid that our men and women are taken prisoner by another country and treated the way our detainees were treated.  God forbid that anyone be treated badly at all, let alone that badly.

I mean, really.

Where's the dignity??? 

 
 

 


62 Comments

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My apologies, folks, I have to remember to truncate next time.

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Wow! You sure make my blog look lame. Don't truncate - publish. This might help people stuck in similar situations.

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Lis,
In the violence of war we have the antithesis of dignity. There is no dignity in killing and there is no dignity in running. Violence is a lose, lose proposition. The answer can never be violence.

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LisB, if it's possible, you have outdone yourself in this blog! You've laid it out. It's all about dignity.

Bless you, my dear. Brings tears to eyes how you "showed" us the meaning. All the difference in the world between your moving description and the cold, heartless descriptions in the "torture" memos.

Namaste.

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Thank you, Thera. If you ever want to give me that free counseling session, I think I might have to pass, after tonight, LOL.....

Got it out and made sense with it to boot!

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Cosign. Lis, you hold nothing back. You are a warrior-poet, the antithesis of the cowards who designed 'memos' to 'protect' them from the scrutiny they knew their actions deserved.

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Thank you, Miguel.

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Domestic violence is wrong. Torture by police to obtain confessions is wrong. Torture against captured soldiers for political propaganda (Like the Vietnamese and Koreans used against our troops) is wrong. But interrogating murderous terrorists harshly to save the lives of their intended victims is another matter. Call it torture, I'm ok with that. I just don't want innocent people to die because we took the moral high ground and refused to dunk a terrorist into a water tank to make him reveal where the bomb was planted. The difference is the terrorist voluntarily put himself in that position. He is trying to kill innocent people. If he would stop trying to kill, he would not be tortured. So I have no feelings for him. I prefer that my family live, my friends live, and screw him.

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I prefer my nephew alive if he's ever taken captive by a country we've pissed off.

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Maybe if we stopped dropping bombs from remote aircraft, that would help too.

I guess I am having trouble seeing how sticking a wet rag down a guy's throat makes us into what we abhor moreso than dropping a bomb out the sky onto women and children, even if they aren't the intended target.

Basically I think we have big problems, and we shouldn't be doing either thing. But we need to discuss the whole range of activities this "War on Terror" has us engaged in.

Great post though. Thanks for sharing such personal parts of who you are.

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I totally agree about these bombs! Totally. Just because troops are pinned down, to bring in 500 lb bombs... I'm sorry. I can't condone that! Yes, you're exactly right. We are dropping unbelievable amounts of explosive material - simply to try and make sure the troops are "protected" - but all too often, we are creating havoc on the ground. (don't get me started...)

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Which bomb got diffused, bulldog?

This is real life. Not 24, (a stooopid television show that has about as much to do with reality as your 'tortured' fantasies.)

No one has ever been saved by torturing another human. You have desensitized yourself out of the realm of humanity. It's gross. Get a grip.

It is far past time for you to quit lying to us and more importantly, to yourself.


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Not wrong, they are all crimes. As such, they should be investigated and the perpetrators prosecuted.

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Even if it wasn't illegal and a war crime under any circumstances... it doesn't work. Your argument is completely specious because of this fact.

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Well said, oleeb. And ten points for using the word specious in so spacious a post. ;)

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Yes, and the law helps make it crystal clear. No interpretation due to the evolution of the language, no interpretation of the meaning of the framers. The morality is clear, the laws are written to avoid the hazards that come from interpretation. In this case, the law is very much black and white.

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As it should be. And we should be making damn sure those words that were written in black and white ink as if written in stone are followed.

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Clever I understand what you are saying but I cant agree with you on torture.Suppose I was captured, and the first day I told them all I knew.I know I told them all I know but they dont know that's all I know so the torture continues, day after day ,week after week.Soon I just start making things up to make them stop,but they don't stop because now Im a mother lode of information, and they will mine me until eventually, maybe months later they find its all fools gold,none of its good.That is exactly what has happened, all they got was fools gold. However that's not all. Its not just the one tortured who is damaged but the torturer himself.He had to severe the inborn link with humanity, the bond of decency and dignity. It makes no difference whether the tortured was evil or not,its the torturer in question here now, he will suffer blow for blow,not to his flesh but to the part of him inside that is human.After its over and done will he ever trust himself again with another human?

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Well said.

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Umm, you seem to have missed a step or two in your oh-so-courageous effort to protect yourself from these murderous terrorists. Like, just who do you propose declare these prisoners to be "murderous terrorists" before you interrogate them using these "extraordinary" methods that sometimes go so far as to result in the death of the prisoner?

Please forgive me, but part of me now hopes that the next time the government is offering bounties on the heads of "terrorists" that your neighbor - who simply doesn't like the way you trim your hedge or some such nonsense - decides to turn you in so he can get a downpayment on that Range Rover he's been lusting after.

Many of the supposed "murderous terrorists" who have rotted in Guantanamo and elsewhere for the last seven-plus years are there under very similar conditions. Does the very strong possibility that some - even one - such "murderous terrorist" to be interrogated might be innocent and have no information to surrender bother you at all? If not, the "War on Terror" is pointless anyway, because we have already capitulated to the enemy and have become terrorists - yes, even murderous terrorists - ourselves.

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Yeah, was it the War ON Terror or the War WITH Terror?!?

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I can only think of our men and women who were taken captive in Iraq and were tortured and sometimes killed. Where was the humanity then? I am all for waterboarding knowing full well that if I was put in that situation in order to get info from me, I would give up that info in short order. The prisoners were not physically abused in any way other than being held uner water for periods of time and brought to the surface in time to prevent anyone to die. Think of the lives that might have been saved by extracting this info from them and be grateful that our government kept us safe and sound because of this "torture".

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If torture becomes the rule of the day, we will all certainly be subject to it. Is that really the life you want?

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The prisoners were not physically abused in any way other than being held uner water for periods of time and brought to the surface in time to prevent anyone to die.

No, some of them did die, Maggie, and the photo of their bloated battered faces is rather horrid proof that more was done to them than holding them underwater. They were beaten and humiliated. To death. The truth is very ugly.

I do not think, that you have read the memos. It is not an easy read. I made my self read a lot of them, because, I feel it is my duty as an American to confront this.

I plan on doing everything in my power to get the United States out of the torture business. It has done nothing but drive up recruitment in terrorist cells. It has endangered our soldiers, our country, and our souls.


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I assume one example will suffice.

The US Army plans to file charges against two military intelligence officers in the suffocation death of an Iraqi general during questioning in Iraq in November.

and later

FORT CARSON, Colo. -- A military jury on Monday ordered a reprimand but no jail time for an Army interrogator convicted of killing an Iraqi general by stuffing him headfirst into a sleeping bag and sitting on his chest.

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Mum, please check out all the links here, and I have more to show you as well if you care to see more.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/connecticut_man1/2009/04/congressionally-approved-tortu.php

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Maggie, the problem is, even if we could somehow justify it, it doesn't work...Two people were waterboarded over 200 times. They never did get any good info out of them. One person confessed to something...now we don't know if he really did it or not, because when you are tortured you will say anything to make it stop.

As much as it SOUNDS like it makes us safer, it really doesn't.

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And it doesn't matter if we got information out of them or not. It's like someone being robbed on the street, and then that person going home and robbing the neighbor. Who is more right?

There aren't many black and white issues in the world. But torture, as Lisa says, IS torture. It's wrong and our country has no right to be a part of it. Arguing that we got useful information out of the person tortured is just pure bullshit and beside the point.

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Lis, great post, but you've doubled a large portion of it (that's why it is so long...)You can go back to blog now, manage entries and delete the extra text and republish, if you want!

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Thank you, I was trying to truncate, LOL!! Last time I try that!

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It took me awhile to figure out, but if you type a couple of paragraphs under the "body" tab, then hit the "extended" tab, and finish up, you end up with the stuff typed in the body showing on the main page, then you hit the red "read more" and the whole post comes up...

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Ah, I copied and pasted instead of CUT and pasted. Thanks, Stilli.

I'm sending Maggie more links right now, btw.

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Sorry that I can't get rid of the "read more" thingie now, but I just want to add to this that I also believe we have an issue with the death penalty, in that, given today's DNA test results, we're finding so many death row inmates are getting let go, or, tragically, found to be innocent after being put to death. Maggie and I had an in-depth conversation about that when we last visited, in fact.

Imagine some of these Gitmo detainees, and others held elsewhere, who are innocent, having to go through this.

And pardon my librul bleeding heart, but even those responsible for crimes against us should not have to go through all of it either.

It hurts our reputation, it hurts America's soul and everything we once stood for and should still be standing for now.

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Yes! Yes! Yes! Good job!

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I just found this, forgive me if this is not new to you.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22614

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Think they are going to stop? I just found this on Reuters.

Obama also acknowledged that CIA senior leaders in recent conversations had demonstrated "anxiety and concern" over his limits on interrogation techniques.

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LisB You probably don't think of yourself as courageous but I hope you do because you are. Writing about this period in your life is courageous
Trying to fight back took courage, and walking out that door in the face of any fear of leaving you had, that was the most courageous of all.Im so glad that you remained you and didn't let the aggressor make you like him. Courage has a way of lighting the fire of courage in others. Someone is reading your story now,someone in the same situation with invisible chains.I believe that your story and your courage will show them those chains are not unbreakable.

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I hope so too. I sort of wrote this in a poem that I recently posted, but couldn't add to it until I'd seen everything I've seen this past week.

If that makes sense.

My point with this blog was to describe the demeaning way in which I was treated, and how unacceptable it was to me personally, to take (yeah, eventually), and to try to move others into understanding that it's so much worse, what we as a country did to others. Whether criminals or not.

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Maybe a bit off topic, but I couldn't help thinking about real courage defined in reading your post LisB. After all, it occurs to me that walking out of the situation you described took immense courage.

Then, having retained the sensitive heart you so often share with us here despite these horrors goes even further in showing the depth of character you possess as well.

Very important post, and definitely rec'd!

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Thank you.

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Beautifully written, Lis. And cheers for your honest account of your experience. Highly rec'd.

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Lis, I hope you see this before your post drops. I am sorry to have missed it until now. (I'm on the road, heavy days.) You write beautifully and your story needs telling. Pay the advocates of torture above no mind whatsoever, and have a look at some of Thera's stuff where I describe them to a "T" as simply sadistsw, seeking to enjoy the misery of others. The "saving innocent lives" crap? It's all BS, always.

And I am so happy for you that you are out of that past life.

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Thanks, guys. I'd say more but I am feeling a bit under the weather and am in need of lots of rest.

I just wanted you to know I read all the comments and am so touched by the friendship, understanding, and support.

TPM'ers rawk.

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Take all the rest you need.

We'll be here.

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Every time I lie down I have to get up again. Annoying, that. Better to sit here with a blankie around me and recommend posts, perhaps.

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I know the feeling, LisB. I've been there. You've dredged up such painful stuff. And everything in the press and here at TPM is another reminder.

A blankie is good. You're trying to heal. But the inner feelings won't stay still.

Can you find something that's soothing for you - but that also helps distract you? An activity like a jig-saw puzzle - not sure what would work for you.

Music? Do you play an instrument? Take a walk... draw? (even if you're not an artist... drawing whatever comes)

But we're here. You can keep this thread alive if you like... for whatever might be helpful.

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Smetana's "The Moldau" is working its charms, thanks.

xoxo

G'night, everybody!

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Pefect! Pleasant dreams....

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Might I also recommend some Bach? Play it, sit back, let it wash over you.

I can not feel stressed while listening to Bach. You may be different, still, it's worth a try.

Thanks for all, Lis. I'm still on the road, with very little access. You're a brave soul. Wish I had the honor of meeting you in 3-D space...

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Remarkable post worthy of much consideration.

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Something that has been bothering me about all the posts I have recently read about the torture memos is that we American's seem to hold the high ground that before the Bush era, America was not a country that tortured. No one looks back into our own history at episodes of extreme cruelty that was sanctioned by the government pre 9/11 such as slavery, The Trail of Tears, lynch mobs, and Japanese internment etc. While these episodes can be cataloged into the idea of racism, they also can be cataloged as torture. And in such cases, government and society was complicit (I also just read a book that described how the conspirators of Abraham Lincoln's assassination were kept in isolation with their hands bound, and with hoods snugly tied over their faces for weeks. One man went insane).
For people who belong to any one of the above mentioned groups, the notion that the our government tortures is not shock inducing. It's par for the course. So while, I am saddened by the fact that our government used these methods, I am not surprised. If our country wants to take the moral high ground, then we do have to look at our ugly history and accept the fact that America has tortured before 9/11 and use that power from the bottom up to accomplish the goal of finally becoming a country that no longer tortures.

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I don't know if you've read any of my prior work but I make it a point to reveal unpleasant episodes in our nation's history. I usually stick to the 20th centure because that should bring it close to home just how little we have moved forward.

I like the drumbeat about torture because we can at the very least stomp out misconceptions and immorality from that one piece of the puzzle. I think everyone should watch "The Passion of Joan of Arc," and then come to a deeper understanding of how malicious torture and inquisition are to human nature.

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Very good point, but if I may be so bold, had I been alive during the time of slavery I would no doubt have been working on the Underground Railroad. I agree that what we did to Native Americans in this country was indeed torture.

But the reason we are all writing about THIS torture and THESE people alive today is because a) we have the internet now and b) it's something we can try to change - now.

We can't go back in time and undo the damage that Americans have done in the past, but we can certainly work together now to ensure the creators of our recent "Interrogation Tactics" are brought to justice and our nation's dignity brought to the forefront once again -- or for once, if you will.

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I guess I shouldn't have generalized as "all" posts, but I was struck by the comment in your post:

"But one thing I had always felt pride in, about our country, was that we seemed to value human dignity."


And Maytra said: "But all of these countries, and us, have moved beyond this."

But these comments are not true in my mind. I guess I'm thinking twelve-step program here. If we do not admit that we have tortured and we still torture, then have we or can we really move past being torturers?

I have had conversations with folks (mind you, I live in a very red state) who think there is nothing wrong with torturing people because they really buy into "fight them over there to be safe over here". If there is a segment of our society that believes torture is a must and they do not feel like it needs to change, there is a possibility that they can regain power and it will happen again.

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I kind of look as these episodes as the evolution of our country. We've normally gone beyond the terrible things that were done in the past. And, and maybe this is just in my mind, so has the world. I know that Spain and Portugal also did terrible things to natives in the New World (not to forget Europe's dividing up of Africa during the same time). But all of these countries, and us, have moved beyond this.

I think what America strives for is to become better, to improve, through time. Slavery to voting to Jim Crow to Dr King to Obama (note that Jim Crow was a setback). Wollstonecraft to Susan B Anthony to the 19th amendment to Condi. That's what makes this episode of recent torture so disheartening. It's backslipping. But, given our past, I have to believe that we can end up better for it. But it will take work.

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Maggie, the current Army Field Manual, which was written by Gen. Petraeus, speaks to the use of interrogations and their use in the face of greater risks. [The emphasis are mine.]

7-44. To the extent that the work of interrogators is indispensable to fulfilling the state’s obligation to secure its citizens’ lives and liberties, conducting interrogations is a moral obligation. The methods used, however, must reflect the Nation’s commitment to human dignity and international humanitarian law. A commander’s need for information remains valid and can be met while observing relevant regulations and ethical standards. Acting morally does not necessarily mean that leaders give up obtaining critical information. Acting morally does mean that leaders must relinquish certain methods of obtaining information, even if that decision requires Soldiers and Marines to take greater risk.

All of this emphasizes what Lis said. Hers is just easier to read. :-)

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Ooops, this was meant as a reply to Maggie above. Instead, it is below. Oh well. I'm a puppy, not a software engineer!

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And a damn smart puppy, too!

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Good points, all.

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Our government MUST prosecute these war crimes called torture. Human beings were tortured to death by other human beings because of our government’s policies. In this country that isn’t included in our values.

Thanks Lis for putting this in a close context for understanding. It makes no difference whether torture works or not. Its wrong.

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LisB

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There she is, my little one, So quick to be hurt, so quick to grin, Timid, afraid, holding out her hand, Yet many a heart she will always win. Playing, reading, talking to her dolls, Then time for cuddling, time for a kiss. She whispers, “I love you” in my ear, There she goes, my sweet little miss. Blond hair tied up in pert little bows, Skin so soft and smooth like a dove. One minute a tear, next a smile, That’s my child, my littlest love. - Mum

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