Geez I Go Away For One Night
...and all hell breaks loose. Over religion!
And from there, it branches off to "He's too conservative!" or "He's not liberal enough" or "I want him to get a mutt versus a poodle".
Chill the fuck out, people!!!
The man hasn't even been sworn in yet, and you're going crazy.
YO! DEMS! LIBS! Be freakin' grateful that we got this far. And STFU.
Y'all are like those annoying movie-goers who start whining 5 minutes into a new James Bond film. "It's not fast enough", "It's not sexy enough", "It doesn't have enough action", "He's a weak Bond compared to Connery."
Cop a clue: You're still watching the previews.
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Indeed...
December 19, 2008 1:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, and, um.....WE WON!!
December 19, 2008 1:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
I posted elsewhere that on an attached video here the PE declared he was a fierce defender of the GLBT interests, but that was not enough. Give Americans the moon and they complain it was not Mars. Give them Mars and they say, "Yeah, but no life forms!"
December 19, 2008 1:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Give 'em this, and they'll be ungrateful because they didn't get that.
December 19, 2008 2:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Have I told you today Lis, I love you! I LOVE the way you think!
December 19, 2008 4:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
I love you too, Stilli. I'm still laughing over what you said in Melissa's post the other night.
December 19, 2008 8:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey LisB - sorry for missing the rest of the party the other night. I fell asleep (laptop tucked in with me) waiting for a page to load. :(
December 19, 2008 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm just annoyed by this notion that I'm somehow supposed to share the puritanical outrage of the internet's scandal addicts, as if I couldn't come up with my own arbitrary reason to condemn half of them as evil bigots. I am, after all, a vegetarian and firm believer in a strict theory of animal rights, and sure enough, I hope that humanity eventually comes to see the mass and inhumane murder of animals for food as one of the greatest atrocities in human history, but do I go:
OBAMA INVITED A MEAT-EATER TO THE INAUGURATION?!! OMG!! HE'S SO IMMORAL!!!! I'M BETRAYED!!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE THERE ARE MEAT-EATERS ON THIS PROGRESSIVE BLOG!!! YOU HAD A MORAL CHOICE TO MAKE AND YOU FAIL!!!! NONHUMAN ANIMALS ARE ALWAYS BEING THROWN UNDER THE BUS!!!!
I mean, sorry, no matter how emotional you are, that's just not how moral progress is made. Take a cue from Gandhi and recognize the importance of universal acceptance and respect. Otherwise, you'll just be pouring your wild, flailing emotions into a keyboard while nothing ever changes.
With that said, I am curious how many people who are irrationally opposed to reputable dog breeders still don't mind sneaking a ham sandwich between bouts of moralistic fury.
December 19, 2008 8:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ouch! I'm a vegetarian, too, because I don't believe animals need to die in order for me to live. Obama eats meat, he causes animals to die...OMG how could I have voted for him?
December 19, 2008 10:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
I ditto all this. But this is what happens LisB when you leave me.
The Democratic Party would be nowhere without unions. And I have a lot of issues with people who run unions.
But I want to work with the only organizations around who deal with workers' rights 24/7. And I want to hear them out.
You are right. WE WON. Aint nobody takin that away from me.
December 19, 2008 8:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Amen...
December 19, 2008 9:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sanity breaking out! Whoa!
December 19, 2008 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
I so seldom break away from lurking....But for this LisB, "my joy is made complete"....
We WON. Ain't nobody taking that away from me.
Wow. A president who believes in talking to everybody. Listening. An idea that society can change when engaging with others. (Like your family or my Georgia friends, for example.)
Don't go too far, LisB and others.
December 19, 2008 10:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's always nice to see new faces around here. Please be sure to come out of hiding more often!
December 19, 2008 4:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
The point of electing Obama is not to work for him. He works for us. I will support him when I think he's right and criticize him when I think he's wrong. That's the point of being in a democracy, not to just get a guy elected and support him no matter what. He made a poor, un-inclusive choice for the pastor at the convocation and he deserves to take heat from the people who are livid about it. Don't worry about the criticism - I know Obama doesn't & he's thrilled with this. He's happy to be building support with the evangels at the expense of progressives.
December 19, 2008 10:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
here we go!
December 19, 2008 11:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
He doesn't necessarily deserve anything. You can make an argument for why you don't think it was proper to invite Warren, but the assertions of "the livid" are far from self-evident. I am amazed at the self-certain moral absolutism I see among some so-called "progressives."
December 19, 2008 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are showing the same moral absolutism when you tell them they don't have a right to be upset. That they should shut up because it's not that big a deal. The reality is it's not that big a deal TO YOU. How morally absolutist and unempathetic is that??? When it is a big deal to you, I hope you'll have the courage to voice your disappointment rather than just say Obama disagrees with me, I should just be quiet.
December 19, 2008 12:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with dijamo. You know what's wrong with this country now? Republicans saw Bush making mistakes and they kept quiet in the interests of party unity. As far as I'm concerned, it's my JOB as an American to speak up when I think my leaders are making a mistake.
Obama made a mistake. A big one. I'm not going to apologize for saying that and I'm not going to shut up and go away just because other people would rather kiss ass and pretend it tastes good.
December 19, 2008 10:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Deb, I luvs ya, but...
What did you do while Bush and Cheney were in office?
Did you speak up loud and clear like you're doing now?
Did you join groups like Moveon.org (oh, I'm sure you did) and did you rant and rave and grind your teeth over Bush and Cheney as you're doing now over Obama?
Good. I'm glad you did.
I grind my teeth at night too. But I believe that, having won the election this year, Obama feels our pain, sweetie.
Would you rather have seen McCain and Palin win?
Would they care about our teeth grinding away into little pieces of lost fillings?
December 20, 2008 2:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nowhere did I say I wanted McCain Palin to win. I said that as a Democrat, I intend to hold Obama accountable for his words and actions.
Republicans failed to hold Bush Cheney accountable and that's why we're 3/4 of the way to hell now.
December 22, 2008 7:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I cosign Dijamo's comment!
December 19, 2008 3:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
LisB, don't you know that when Obama is being criticized that you can't criticize the criticizers? What you'll get is post after post about how you are following him blindly, that you are a centrist, and that you are trying to take away their right to free speech.
December 19, 2008 11:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank god Obama is not a puppet!
December 19, 2008 12:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't make LisB come over there!
=D
December 19, 2008 12:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
BWWAAK!
December 19, 2008 12:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lis said "fuck." Twice!
Heh.
December 19, 2008 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL! Well, technically, I abbreviated it once and used its alternate, "freakin'", once. But yeah, I meant "fuck".
Heh.
December 19, 2008 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ooops, you're right. I did spell it out. Golly. I guess I was pissed.
December 19, 2008 5:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gosh, Lis...does that mean I can't love you anymore? I mean I'm a Christian, afterall...you know intolerant...
December 19, 2008 10:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jesus! Stilli I never knew!!! Fuck it, I can't love you anymore.
Sorry.
December 20, 2008 3:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Rec'd. Couldn't agree more.
December 19, 2008 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh good grief. I hadn't quite noticed this before -- guess I wasn't paying attention -- but this place really does have its comment police, doesn't it?
Yes, LisB, in your absence, some people actually posted some stuff with feeling! Oh my gosh! And on an online BB and everything! Thanks be to you for coming back to let us know we've been embarrassing ourselves.
I guess it's inevitable: Wherever you go, anytime two or more people gather together, someone will try to recreate high school.
And, as long as I'm letting it all hang out, here's something else I've been wondering: LisB, have you ever had a thought so trivial or so transient or so inconsequential that you didn't regard it worthy of a multi-page post with footnotes and corresponding discography?
December 19, 2008 8:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. Judge much?
December 19, 2008 8:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
LynnDee, have I ever read a post of yours ever?
Have we ever spoken?
Do I know you?
What's your thoughts on religion, luv? Tell me about how Iraq affects you. Tell me, have you ever been homeless?
Do you ever post here???? I don't know you from adam, honey. Speak up more, like I do, and maybe I'll recognize you someday.
December 20, 2008 3:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Orlando, Oh please. Whether it's judgment or wisdom just depends on whether you agree.
dijamo, great post. In fact, I'm just noticing you write a lot of great posts!
December 19, 2008 8:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think it's wisdom when you personally attack someone. I think it's mean.
December 19, 2008 9:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fine. I personally find it really annoying to have another poster announce that I -- and others, of course -- should STFU because we aren't saying the things she thinks we should be saying.
There's no need for that. Simply voicing her opinion isn't enough for her? She has to voice everyone else's as well?
I don't get that.
December 20, 2008 1:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Voice your opinion at me, from now on. That's how I like it played, thanks.
December 20, 2008 3:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
People usually think my posts are crap when they disagree and like them when I am on their side :) I disagree with lots of folks here vocally and often, but try to keep my criticisms on the issues. The hit on Lis seemed kind of below the belt and off-topic. There's room at TPM for all writing styles and I (and others) appreciate her posts even when I disagree. As full disclosure Lis is a friend, but this comment is just about that. It's that whole disagreeing vigorously without being disagreeable thing that I try to do, not always successfully, but try nonetheless.
December 19, 2008 9:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good post, Dijamo
=D
December 19, 2008 10:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually I have no idea what issues we might agree on and what we might not.
But I find it utterly refreshing to encounter someone online who can suggest -- far more gently than I, I must admit -- that someone who is telling others to STFU is being the same kind of moral absolutist she's accusing those same others of being.
December 20, 2008 1:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
{{GROPE HUG}}
Dijamo, blessings on your family and you this holiday season (see, I can be formal and all that).
I love Hillary as Secty of State and look forward to her doing what you and I are doing.....getting along peacefully with those who disagree.
xoxo,
Lis
December 20, 2008 3:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lynn Dee, in her own words:
But she might as well hang up her aspirations ever to be the Democratic nominee for President. And for that she can thank her PUMA-like supporters, who have apparently decided to toss her career onto the funeral pyre of their rage at Sen. Obama.
God I hate belonging to this party. Is there a progressive party somewhere that doesn't have the Clintons in it, or anyone like them?
Which reminds me -- Anderson Cooper just referred to "Bill Clinton supporters." Bill Clinton's got supporters? What the hell for?
December 20, 2008 3:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
I've been shut up for 8 years. Now I'm supposed to shut up some more. Mmmmm, tasty.
December 19, 2008 9:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, that's apparently what we can expect from you.
Someone kick your cat this evening?
December 19, 2008 9:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
It seems to me that we can find at least 1 million people who would oppose any choice of decisions that Barrack will make. The country has just suffered through 8 years of the though police deciding what is right and wrong. Now it seems many on the left are demanding complete control in the new administration.
Our country is based upon a diversity of cultures and beliefs. We're gonna have differences of opinions. Personally, I think Warren was a bad choice but his selection pales by comparison to the economic crisis in America. By deflecting discussion away from what must be a #1 priority, those people serve their own narrow view and do a disservice to the county. I respect the right to complain and disagree. But there comes a time to look at the big picture. Let's move on.
December 19, 2008 11:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Now it seems many on the left are demanding complete control in the new administration."
Complete control? Oh come on. That's a huge exaggeration. I'm merely expressing my opinion and amazed at how many lefties think I should -- how did that go again? Oh right: STFU.
I don't believe that Obama can backtrack on this bone-headed invitation, and I don't expect him to. But apparently it's a no-no to express that.
I don't know what you're afraid of. Thus far in my life, I've had very little control over anything. If I can get my kids off to school and myself to work on time, I feel pretty pleased with myself.
Now, though, now that I think Obama made a bad decision, I'm so powerful I need to STFU lest I upset the apple cart.
Maybe I should ask for a raise. I had no idea I wielded so much clout.
December 20, 2008 1:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe you just need to relax some.
December 20, 2008 3:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
This whole thread is missing the point:
The discussion should not be about religion; it should be about POWER.
Obama chose as he did in a move to mute evangelical protest over him. Moreover, he did so in a way to give the more moderate version of evangelicalism the center stage. In other words, he's triangulating evangelicalism towards the center.
The invocation/benediction is essentially nothing. Yep, *nothing*. It's a show to pacify the proles and makes some nice comments about God. Want proof? You aren't going to get every major world religion represented during the ceremony. So why are you expecting "your" God to even be listening? ("God" isn't protecting this country -- the US DoD has that responsibility. And thank God for that.)
Obama is a politician, people! His choices are politically guided. He just took the teeth out of the extreme evangelicals and probably made it easier for the Southern GOP congressmen to fall towards his direction.
A clever move -- and has nothing to do with religion except for those narrow-minded people, pundits, and TPMers who insist on making it so.
December 20, 2008 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hi CT, its good to see you back again, I kept worrying from some remarks you made that you were leaving for good.
I think this Warren issue is about politics and power and friendships and triangulation as you so lucidly express it above.
But here at TPM its been about dissent and reaction to dissent.
I think its way over the line to attack posters personally like was done against LisB above, but LisB, it also doesn't help to tell people to STFU! I think the people reacting negatively to the Warren decision do so out of principle and to me thats always been the hallmark of the Democratic Party: high principles that we try to meet. The day when speaking from conscience is banned from our party, or worse, ridiculed, is a dark day.
We really need to be able to dialogue here without ridiculing the people we disagree with.
I highly respect Destor and Loki and Dij and DebbieDN and the other good and integrity-laden folks who have spoken up against this choice. Same way I respected Tankard's position on FISA II. That kind of dissent is an old and honored aspect of the Democratic Party that for me makes the Party worth honoring and following. Discrimination against gays is a civil rights issue and the day when the Democratic Party ignores any group's civil rights as not worthy of protection is never going to come.
December 20, 2008 6:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have found that the quality of debate dropped substantially when everyone got to be on the same side -- e.g. when Obama won the nomination.
Truthfully, I find many here hopelessly naive about politics and power. Principle is a guiding factor, but if one expects the next 4 years to be one dogmatic principle fest, I say that person didn't understand how Obama came out of essentially no where 20 months ago to win the presidency.
Abe Lincoln, vehemently against slavery, summed it up nicely:
Expect Obama to be a politician at all times. And a damned good one.
December 20, 2008 7:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are right, Lux, but I'm not going to take it back. I was angry when I wrote this post and I said what I felt at the time.
December 20, 2008 8:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have a right to say what you think LisB, and it seems to me Lox is stifling YOU.
December 20, 2008 8:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
i just don't want us here to a slow return to what I consider the bad old days, Bwak. A lot of people were driven away by abusiveness in posting and I hope we don't slide by slow degrees back to that. I think we can disagree, even vehemently, and not try to censor or ridicule. Saying STFU is an attempt to make people....well, shut the fuck up! That seems a little like censorship. So I guess if I oppose censorship, I too am a censor? Well okay. guilty.
LisB is not now nor has ever been an abusive poster, so the STFU remark kind of caught me by surprise and I didn't tell her not to do it again, just that I didn't think it helped.
Still feel that way, unfortunately cause I hate to be out of harmony with people I like.
Including you, Bwakfat.
Lox
December 20, 2008 9:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
=D
Sorry, I guess i just thought Lis got beat up in this thread, and not fairly.
The trouble with getting after people for saying shut up, is that then what you are doing is telling them to shut up.
Talk about a downward spiral.
And sorry about the lox Lux. I know you aren't a smoked fish.
December 20, 2008 9:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, tell my wife that! No problem, Bwak!!
December 20, 2008 9:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
well you have to speak your truth. and it may not always fall lightly on the ears.
December 20, 2008 9:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
CT, Politically, I think Obama has got a high degree of talent and is handling the situation he finds himself in exemplarily. I have my fear that if Obama has a weakness, it is a tendency toward compromising to maintain unanimity. On a societal level, that's a policy strength in governing and manufacturing consensus, but at a managerial level dealing with a small population of advisors, its a weakness. He may need to ignore the consensus or averaged position of his advisors from time to time. Rahm is going to have to work against that tendency in the president-elect.But this is a little pre-mature on my part, as after two years or so, I think the Obama we see will be a lot more forceful than the consensus builder we are seeing right now.
December 20, 2008 7:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Quantum of Solace did suck, though.
December 21, 2008 6:00 AM | Reply | Permalink