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Offshoring Corporate Tax
I've got this professor -- the kind that's been retired for 20 years, was born a century ago, and rather than spending time at home with wife and family celebrating his lucrative job earning a ton of money helping big multinationals evade taxes legally such a long and successful career in order to pontificate on the virtues of laissez faire capitalism teach law students sadly ignorant of the basics of economics and finance -- who's driving me nuts enough to vent online to strangers under cover of relative anonymity.
Okay, I'm no huey L, and I've spend enough time in corporate america to at least listen to both sides. Often I find myself in some strange netherworld where the liberals look at me like I'm something stuck on the bottom of their shoe when I, e.g., take five minutes to explain that a lot times, asbestos defendants *aren't* actually guilty in this day of age...but I get the "oh *wack*-o" stare from the biz friendly coworkers when I talk about how maybe drug legalization isn't a bad thing and how could we possibly think slavery's social reverberations have possible gone away forever. But this old dude is KILLING ME.
He's got his panties in a twist for fear the obama administration's going to eliminate corporate tax deferral. and then US multinationals will be "forced" to pay US tax rates on ALL their income and therefore they will not be competitive (this of course is given in absolute terms) and america will go down the toilet. I mean, to the extent it hasn't already. no offense, thailand.
here's a primer (and I have said old guy to thank): US multinationals with subsidiaries (separate legal entities, but owned and controlled by US corporations) overseas don't generally pay tax on the income of the sub until the subsidiary issues dividends back to the US corporation. this is called tax deferral.
so basically treasury gives US multinationals an interest free loan in the amount of their tax liability on foreign income. But back in the 60s the kennedy administration was resolved to make sure they paid at least part of their fair share, and created Subpart F -- a fond nickname for an exception and a loophole to the exception and an exception to the loophole to the exception to tax deferral. Basically, it's this: US multinationals have to pay US tax immediately on foreign income that can easily be moved around. Ie, such income doesn't require, oh, an office with workers actually working or a factory actually making. Real industry, not "I get paid for doing nothing" income. You know, the kind that gets all those preferable tax rates. But I digress.
So basically, passive income gets taxed right away--it doesn't get deferred til it comes on home through the form of corporate dividends. This is designed, for example, so people dont move their trust fund to, oh, caymen or bermuda, solely to avoid income tax. "real" honest to goodness business income located overseas because, uh, there's a market and workers there -- that still gets deferral.
So why is this cat so upset??? why the doom and gloom??? he drank the kool aid for 60 years, so I guess I forgive him, even though he calls me "sweetie." still, when you're only response is: "Japan's the only other country in the world who taxes its citizens on their foreign income," well, that sounds a little like kindergarten-style deflection to me.
And here's another question. why does everyone worry about the corporations remaining competitive when *I* dont get tax breaks. and isn't it *my* available cash that buys the crap at wal-mart that allows wal-mart to make money and be productive and create more jobs (somewhere, at least)???? since when does wal-mart make better use of a buck than I do??? (okay, I know I didn't *need* that second pair of red pumps, but the point still stands).
has anyone ever actually done a study on the effect of country x vs country y tax rates, along with the PLETHORA of other variables that determine where a business wants to locate (governance issues, access to capital markets, labor force, natural resources, etc) such that we should actually start taking the "my taxes...sniff...are too *high*" argument seriously?
Okay, I'm no huey L, and I've spend enough time in corporate america to at least listen to both sides. Often I find myself in some strange netherworld where the liberals look at me like I'm something stuck on the bottom of their shoe when I, e.g., take five minutes to explain that a lot times, asbestos defendants *aren't* actually guilty in this day of age...but I get the "oh *wack*-o" stare from the biz friendly coworkers when I talk about how maybe drug legalization isn't a bad thing and how could we possibly think slavery's social reverberations have possible gone away forever. But this old dude is KILLING ME.
He's got his panties in a twist for fear the obama administration's going to eliminate corporate tax deferral. and then US multinationals will be "forced" to pay US tax rates on ALL their income and therefore they will not be competitive (this of course is given in absolute terms) and america will go down the toilet. I mean, to the extent it hasn't already. no offense, thailand.
here's a primer (and I have said old guy to thank): US multinationals with subsidiaries (separate legal entities, but owned and controlled by US corporations) overseas don't generally pay tax on the income of the sub until the subsidiary issues dividends back to the US corporation. this is called tax deferral.
so basically treasury gives US multinationals an interest free loan in the amount of their tax liability on foreign income. But back in the 60s the kennedy administration was resolved to make sure they paid at least part of their fair share, and created Subpart F -- a fond nickname for an exception and a loophole to the exception and an exception to the loophole to the exception to tax deferral. Basically, it's this: US multinationals have to pay US tax immediately on foreign income that can easily be moved around. Ie, such income doesn't require, oh, an office with workers actually working or a factory actually making. Real industry, not "I get paid for doing nothing" income. You know, the kind that gets all those preferable tax rates. But I digress.
So basically, passive income gets taxed right away--it doesn't get deferred til it comes on home through the form of corporate dividends. This is designed, for example, so people dont move their trust fund to, oh, caymen or bermuda, solely to avoid income tax. "real" honest to goodness business income located overseas because, uh, there's a market and workers there -- that still gets deferral.
So why is this cat so upset??? why the doom and gloom??? he drank the kool aid for 60 years, so I guess I forgive him, even though he calls me "sweetie." still, when you're only response is: "Japan's the only other country in the world who taxes its citizens on their foreign income," well, that sounds a little like kindergarten-style deflection to me.
And here's another question. why does everyone worry about the corporations remaining competitive when *I* dont get tax breaks. and isn't it *my* available cash that buys the crap at wal-mart that allows wal-mart to make money and be productive and create more jobs (somewhere, at least)???? since when does wal-mart make better use of a buck than I do??? (okay, I know I didn't *need* that second pair of red pumps, but the point still stands).
has anyone ever actually done a study on the effect of country x vs country y tax rates, along with the PLETHORA of other variables that determine where a business wants to locate (governance issues, access to capital markets, labor force, natural resources, etc) such that we should actually start taking the "my taxes...sniff...are too *high*" argument seriously?
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I can't answer any of your questions, (way not my field), but they remain interesting queries to me nonetheless. One must consider the source of studies such as you ask about in your last paragraph. If you happen to lean to starboard, and give credence to the conservative Heritage Foundation, you might believe this study which concludes that high corporate taxes are in fact undermining US competitiveness in the world market. If you walk more in the upright position, you might give more credence to this article published by the UK's independent National Institute Economic Review which showed some correlations to the contrary of the Heritage Foundation's paper.
March 27, 2009 4:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
"...a fond nickname for an exception and a loophole to the exception and an exception to the loophole to the exception to tax deferral"
I am on the same level here as Miguel, I guess. I know that there was a tax credit for foreign taxes paid. So that you could deduct taxes paid from your bottom line. But in what context.
In the end, where the conservatives are just straight out lying is when they confuse theoretical 'rates' with effective rates. Who cares what the actual rate is on the books before you take into consideration the deductions and credits available.
IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT ARE THE US CORPS ACTUALLY PAYING?
My understanding is that compared to Europe and parts of Asia, we have a lower effective tax rate.
March 27, 2009 5:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
it's true that us taxpayers can take a credit for foreign taxes paid on income, just as we can take deductions for our state taxes paid when it comes to filing a federal return. For example, if France charges them 40% on income, they get a credit in the amount of that 40% when it comes to paying US tax on the same income.
This is where it gets shady. The amount of credit they can take can't exceed the US tax liability. So often times companies build up excess credits when, for example, they do business in high tax countries--say France's 40%. They can only credit 35%, so 5% is still hanging around waiting to be used.
they can then apply those extra credits in later years, or spread them around by opening up another shop in a tax free country doing the same kind of business and have their US tax reduced with the excess credits. So say the company opens up a sub in ireland which has no tax. Then they would just be paying US tax, 35%--but that's reduced dollar for dollar by the excess credit from France.
Foreign tax credits don't bug me as much as maneuvering around subpart F. This says they don't have to pay US tax *at all.*
March 27, 2009 7:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
well, insofar as US treasury doesn't mind subsidizing France's.
March 27, 2009 7:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Part of the distortion and disparity is due to the different tax systems: corporate income taxes in the United States and value added taxes in other countries.
The corporate income tax is a particularly bad tax.
Consider two companies making widgets, each company producing 1 million widgets, selling at $1000 each, for $1 billion in revenues.
Suppose that company A is efficient and makes $100 million in profit, while company B is inefficient and loses $100 million.
The effect of the corporate income tax is to penalize company A by about $35 million, while company B gets a tax loss carry forward to offset profits in future years.
Therefore, the corporate income tax penalizes efficient corporations, while providing a subsidy to inefficient corporations. This is the opposite of what the goal of tax policy should be. Effiecient corporations should be encouraged to expand, while inefficient ones should be encouraged to go out of business.
There is no equity argument to be made for taxing successful corporations more. Instead, corporations should be required to disburse all earnings to their stockholders each year, so that the earnings are subject to the stockholders' income tax rates, which should be progressive. Instead of retaining earnings, corporations should sell stock or bonds to fund expansions.
March 27, 2009 9:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
The revenue of the state is the state. No?
March 27, 2009 12:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aren't the corporations paying taxes to those foreign governments? So if IBM has an operation in Ireland, doesn't it pay income taxes to Ireland?
March 27, 2009 8:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
sure does. and it gets a credit for paying that tax when it comes to paying uncle sam. But you and I would only get a deduction.
sucks to be an individual.
April 17, 2009 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink