My tech recommendation for TPM.
Josh:
I know the cafe isn't a huge money maker and your business model doesn't warrant a full time employee for the site. I also am lacking in some basic information about your system and capacities so I'm sort of going blind here. But clearly there is a consistent problem with mega-spam.
It seems you are balancing two competing needs which are: the need to allow people to participate and the need to maintain control over content in regards to spam. The spam problem appears to stem exclusively from the fact that accounts have auto-activation that immediately allows new users to post diary entries en mass. The key is to find a way to curtail this while still making it convenient for people to sign up to comment, as well as to find a solution that does not significantly increase overhead to the staff. It seems to me that the site doesn't add *that* many new legitimate diary posters in any given day/week. You should consider limiting the ability for new users to post diary entries without approval.
This is the first wordpress plugin that popped up by searching for "wordpress blog approval" on Google. It may not be the best for the task, but it will work fine to describe what I'm talking about. The plugin (called "GT post approval") advertises that it allows administrators to approve/reject posts, and to set an access level for auto-approval of posts. An imaginary operational policy would go something like:
1 - All current posters set to auto approval level
2 - All new posters have their posts drop to the approve/reject que
3 - After the user makes their first diary entry that is obviously serious, set their access level to auto appoval level.
4 - clean out all the spam with a simple click of a reject button
5 - delete spam producing accounts (optionally, block the IP)
This would block the diary entry spam while not interfering with people who want to sign up and comment immediately. It would also allow you to manage the approval/spam removal process as a scheduled task that can be budgeted in a (reasonably) predictable fashion which would likely take some of the uncertainty out of managing the cafe. I can't imagine that it would take more than 15 minutes for an employee to go through and approve/clear out a decent list. Depending on available resources, if you were able to do it twice daily there wouldn't even be that big a delay for new members.
Anyhoo, that's what I'd tell you if you were a client. :-)
And yes, I'm post-timing this for around 10am tomorrow because we're in the midst of a new spam attack ... and putting it on muck and dc even though it's meta 'cause I'd like management to see it.
I know the cafe isn't a huge money maker and your business model doesn't warrant a full time employee for the site. I also am lacking in some basic information about your system and capacities so I'm sort of going blind here. But clearly there is a consistent problem with mega-spam.
It seems you are balancing two competing needs which are: the need to allow people to participate and the need to maintain control over content in regards to spam. The spam problem appears to stem exclusively from the fact that accounts have auto-activation that immediately allows new users to post diary entries en mass. The key is to find a way to curtail this while still making it convenient for people to sign up to comment, as well as to find a solution that does not significantly increase overhead to the staff. It seems to me that the site doesn't add *that* many new legitimate diary posters in any given day/week. You should consider limiting the ability for new users to post diary entries without approval.
This is the first wordpress plugin that popped up by searching for "wordpress blog approval" on Google. It may not be the best for the task, but it will work fine to describe what I'm talking about. The plugin (called "GT post approval") advertises that it allows administrators to approve/reject posts, and to set an access level for auto-approval of posts. An imaginary operational policy would go something like:
1 - All current posters set to auto approval level
2 - All new posters have their posts drop to the approve/reject que
3 - After the user makes their first diary entry that is obviously serious, set their access level to auto appoval level.
4 - clean out all the spam with a simple click of a reject button
5 - delete spam producing accounts (optionally, block the IP)
This would block the diary entry spam while not interfering with people who want to sign up and comment immediately. It would also allow you to manage the approval/spam removal process as a scheduled task that can be budgeted in a (reasonably) predictable fashion which would likely take some of the uncertainty out of managing the cafe. I can't imagine that it would take more than 15 minutes for an employee to go through and approve/clear out a decent list. Depending on available resources, if you were able to do it twice daily there wouldn't even be that big a delay for new members.
Anyhoo, that's what I'd tell you if you were a client. :-)
And yes, I'm post-timing this for around 10am tomorrow because we're in the midst of a new spam attack ... and putting it on muck and dc even though it's meta 'cause I'd like management to see it.
Advertisement
Rec and good thinking on the post-timing.
September 17, 2009 4:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Or Josh could set up a group of trusted users to pass the genuine blog through and kill the spam, as we more or less used to do. With x amount of users going in and out of here day and night per the norm, the wait time for publishing the new user's blog would shrink to a minimum, thus ensuring that its contents would sill have some relevance to the discussion (assuming that it had some to start with).
:-)
September 17, 2009 5:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, "trusted users" ... finally the clique's dream of world domination is beginning to bear fruit.
September 17, 2009 8:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
I can almost TASTE it, you know? I'll take the first weekend, ok folks? Hmmmmm. Lemme see..... hate list... hate list... now where'd I put that hate list? Ah! There you are.
The Broom.
Cats. All cats.
He who's name must not be spoken.
The Bird.
The Pig.
Anyone who writes really fancy.
The Turnip.
That Dog With The Really Short Legs.
Other Spam.
That should clean the place up.
September 17, 2009 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Typical. See, it's comments like this that are destroying the Democratic party, alienating that silent majority of short-legged dogs out there lurking...lurking...around TPMCafé in the hope that they can find reasonable dialogue and trustworthy compromise with deepthroat tube-people.
Why do you hate America...?
September 17, 2009 10:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
YOU LIE!
September 17, 2009 10:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Please re-read my comment.
September 17, 2009 11:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
No, I'm too offended. Now can we pleeease make this thread all about ME?!
September 17, 2009 11:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://images.google.com/images?q=pugs&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
September 17, 2009 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
LOL! Thank you for getting this thread back on track. (Love the DarthPug...)
September 17, 2009 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know, for years I've heard that phrase "Pug ugly" and not known what it meant.
Now? I know.
Damn. No wonder they call Rush and his buds "Repuglicans."
September 17, 2009 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I always thought that "Repuglicans" was more a reference to their pugilistic style of debate. You know what I mean...they come out swinging and only stop at the bell long enough to adjust their tooth guard and pop the air bubbles out of the cartilage in their neck then it's back to boxing.
September 17, 2009 6:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL! Thank you for getting this thread back on track. (Love the DarthPug...)
September 17, 2009 12:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Soiled the rug again, didn't you? "Reasonable dialogue and a trustworthy compromise.." and a fire plug no doubt.
September 17, 2009 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
What is that avatar picture? I can't even tell with a magnificent magnifier glass. A nasal spray ad graphic?
September 17, 2009 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's a diagram of how to properly insert a naso-gastric tube.
I was in a happy place when I picked it. ;-)
September 17, 2009 11:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Had one of those once, it was NOT a happy place. On coming to remove it the nurse said, "this is going to hurt". You know they're talking real pain when they tell you it WILL hurt.
September 17, 2009 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
What is it about that? They say "This will not hurt." and it does. They say "This will hurt." and it does. It is kind of a microcosm of the whole health care debate. No matter what they say it is the same result and we just have to take it. Ouch.
September 17, 2009 1:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Boooo. Hiss. Cat-vatars rock.
September 17, 2009 12:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry. Smokey gets a free pass.
It's just all the other LOSER cats.
(Whew.)
September 17, 2009 12:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Cats. All cats. Yesssssss!!
September 17, 2009 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
SO I can still post? Yippee!!!
September 17, 2009 5:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
As soon as we get total control of the site we can stop posting the spam. Great work guys!!!
Ah, I mean, what clique? There is no clique.
September 17, 2009 11:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Apparently not really workable with their current software, no? Something Versha or someone said.
September 17, 2009 8:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Forget Donal. He’s just another nattering nabob of negativism.
When I was a boy I ate two boxes of something awful tasting called shredded wheat so that I could get the two cereal box tops I needed to send in the mail for a Straight Arrow decoder ring from the radio show of the same name. I suggest that you institute some kind of very unpleasant ordeal like eating shredded wheat as a prerequisite for posting at the Café. It so happens that I am in possession of a large volume of celery. Following on from a recent suggestion by Quinn Esq . I would be happy to donate said celery for distribution as celery juice for just this purpose. Some of the finest institutions in our society – private schools, military academies, student associations, professions like medicine and law – have traditions of abusing those who would join these select groups. It is called hazing and although it is not torture per se it is consistent with many of the newest policies and practices of our national government regarding the treatment of strangers. It is perfectly mainstream to consider such a solution.
(Seriously thanks kgb999. I for one am content that spamming is neither trivial nor benign and would accept any reasonable burden to frustrate its intentions.)
September 17, 2009 9:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nice try, broom boy.
Now eat your celery. Come onnnnnn..... just onnnnne more stalk. There's a goooooood boy.
Oh dear.
All over the floor.
Where's the mop?
September 17, 2009 9:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
(I will take the celery, please. I heart celery and celery seeds. I will trade you some prunes and psyllium seed husks for it.
I heart celery see-eeds, if you plee-eeze, i heart celery seeds, if you don't please.)
Sounds about right, 999, even if the software costs a little.
When any of you click on All Reader Posts, what do you see? When I do, it just reloads the Cafe Page.
September 17, 2009 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can you smoke psyllium seed husks, sounds hallucinogenic.
September 17, 2009 10:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Smoke em if ya got em...but they clean out yer guts, therefore, detoxify yer brain. I generally assume there are characters like well, former vice presidents and whooot-not, who could use psyllium seeds and a lttle bit o' lsd, and a good talkin to by quinn. Followed by a Rhumba lesson or two, from Tom deLay.
September 17, 2009 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with Donal.
To set a clique of "trusted users" who will have the power to delete diaries on a whim is not a good idea.
It will allow people to settle personal scores (recall flame wars of the last week or two), to delete posts they disagree with, to delete posts from the users they don't like, etc.
And the fact that these censors would be "trusted" means, to put it plainly, that they will not be overseen or checked by anyone.
The issue is "content" versus "absence of content", not "trusted" versus "untrusted".
But this "idea" is an interesting insight into groupthink, cliques and how terrible ideas are usually a result of good intentions.
September 17, 2009 9:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Heavy on objections, light on constructive solutions, Lalo. What do you suggest?
(I don't think anyone would object to having Lalo, Jason, CT, Bill, Bulldog counted among "trusted" users, which should avoid up any censorship issues).
Bipartisan panel anyone?
September 17, 2009 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Heavy on objections, light on constructive solutions, Lalo. What do you suggest?
(I don't think anyone would object to having Lalo, Jason, CT, Bill, Bulldog counted among "trusted" users, which should avoid up any censorship issues).
Bipartisan panel anyone?
September 17, 2009 10:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
You left out rushabaga.
September 17, 2009 10:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think the best solution is to modify the way the display page works.
Allow the user to control how the diaries are displayed on a page - so that by a click of a button (e.g. "Do Not Display User's Diaries") you essentially add someone's diaries to a personal "do not display" list.
September 17, 2009 10:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
That would still leave the 'all reader posts' page as spam-central for any non-regular clicking through...
(and involves a lot of maintenance work of regular readers to have a reader page worth reading.)
September 17, 2009 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes it will. But it's still better for any "participating" user than any other alternative so far.
I don't like "censorship panel" for reasons stated above.
I don't like Ripper's idea of "blog rationing" because some people demonstrated they have more than 3 things to say that are interesting.
It's easy to register multiple accounts, but a combination of several things (delayed posting start, rationing of blogs and cenorship) will turn this Cafe into a police precinct.
At the end of the day, the most important thing is to make the individual user experience seamless and comfortable. So let the individual user control it. That's what this site exists for, the individual users.
September 17, 2009 11:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
I see your point Lalo. But unless something is done the All Reader Posts page becomes useless. I'm not going to spend all my time blocking certain readers from appearing, and I don't think others will find that a useful way to spend time. I, and others, will just go by our dashboard. Which leaves posts by new readers pretty much unread, unless they already have a 'following'.
Maybe something like Dan K's idea of more editorial discrimination on the part of TPM staff is the only way to go - based on your simple criterion whether the post has CONTENT. irrespective of the views expressed...
September 17, 2009 11:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
OK, let me throw in an additional suggestions:
add a short "preview" section for each new blog that shows the first 2 or 3 sentences and "do not display this author" link next to the blog's title and writer's name. That way you can blacklist without too much clicking. Someone suggested this before.
I understand the point about editorial control. But the reason it hasn't happened so far in any effective way is likely because of objective issues (resources, etc). And since it's a "cafe", I don't expect a barista to tell people to shut up. :-)
September 17, 2009 11:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Apart from the fact that it's annoying for users, there's a separate point regarding management. The latest wave of spam basically involves copy-pasting real articles and then hiding a bunch of commercial links behind the text (done in order to up their google-search profile). So the 'preview' function won't help, given the beginning of the text looks legit. But beyond that I don't know if TPM wants to become a major commercial spam hub. Unless its dealt with, it'll start clogging up their servers.
I see the limited-resources point, which is why people are suggesting some form of self-policing. Despite the waves of flame-wars, I don't see it degenerating into censorship. And if it did, we could go back to the drawing boards. I'd be happy to leave the policing in the hands of those I sometimes vehemently disagree with. As long as they are interested in a more or less functional café.
September 17, 2009 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're absolutely right.
I counted about a dozen posts from "matvashutra". If there was a system in the way I described, it would require me to do two things:
- block display of "matvashutra" diaries
- refresh the page
Total time: 5 seconds
The point you and dijamo make (reading one diary to realize it's spam) would add a minute on top.
September 17, 2009 12:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Check out Ripper's comment down at the bottom.
September 17, 2009 12:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Total non-techie here, but if they could create a clickable spam button (next to Comments and recommended) that would be awesome so you could actually see before clicking the post is bogus even if the title is not "V!@gr@ NOW!."
What would be even better is if a certain number of spam votes are received, it could be automatically removed pending review & taken off all lists.
Yes this has potential for abuse, but that can be solved by subjecting those who abuse spam ratings for content or personality disputes to electroshocks or something. Or maybe having their spam rating rights taken away.
September 17, 2009 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, I understand the idea. But, if you forgive my language, flagging something as "spam" is akin to snitching.
People are complaining about spam because they have no personal control over spam.
What I'm suggesting is to give each person the power to control what they consider spam instead of reporting it for someone else to deal with, be it the authority (TPM editors), the collective (the censors) or the "process" (delayed start, blog and comment rationing, etc).
I'm finding so many parallels between these discussions and the methods of health care reform, it's a little scary.
September 17, 2009 12:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
How silly.
Many sights that have chat or blogs have monitors of one kind or another that serve, in part, the very function being discussed here which would be the identification and elimination of spam. To think that some "clique" would conspire to censor or exclude some people takes petty paranoia to new levels. But I suppose that is how paranoia works.
September 17, 2009 11:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Many sights that have chat or blogs have monitors "
- Yes, these monitors are called moderators. They allow a comment to appear or not based on posting policy.
That's a moderated forum.
It's fine to institute moderators but that would be an entirely different concept of this Cafe.
It will also make life difficult for those people who post in the middle of our night due to time zones.
September 17, 2009 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lalo, there are also things called "programs" that can do this kind of thing without intervention; perhaps you've heard of them?
September 17, 2009 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
It may not have been the best suggestion in the world, but this is a distortion of what was actually suggested.
Although not perfectly clear, it was meant only for new user blogs. There was nothing mentioned about comments from any user or any other type of user blogs. "...the wait time for publishing the new user's blog would shrink to a minimum..."
Good goddess, talk about paranoid and irrational. Take your meds before commenting, please.
September 17, 2009 8:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
The biggest problem with these spam attacks is posts being forced off bottom of listings. These posts reappear when the spam is removed from page. When some one posts about the the spam, they too are causing posts to prematurely disappear from listings. Might I suggest using email to contact tpm rather than blogging.
September 17, 2009 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
You might, but it's far too late. Don't worry, this is likely the entirety of the effort I'll put in to solving Josh's problem.
(there was a reason I chose this way).
September 17, 2009 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's nice to have a quasi-open thread, people are having fun while the gremlins are being chased down.
September 17, 2009 1:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it's a good thing to have this discussion include the users of the site. Even though it means there are additional posts doing one of the things that spam does this is actually useful and relevant therefore it's not spam at all.
September 17, 2009 6:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Versha said please send her the spam links at versha@talkingpointsmemo.com but when there are 25 or more, that's a big job.
September 17, 2009 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Many of the are from same poster, send the blog page instead of individual postings.
September 17, 2009 10:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
correct. the username of the spam poster or a link to the spammer's blog page should be sufficient to track and remove that spam.
September 17, 2009 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
My own feeling is that this is an administrative problem, even though it affects all of us.
I don't want to be in the business of policing other peoples' blogs. I don't want any other blogger to be in the business of policing mine.
kgb, you have some good ideas in your original post. Send them on to admin and see what happens.
September 17, 2009 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Might I also suggest a simple cap of three posts/person/day to limit the number of spam posts in any 24-hour period?
September 17, 2009 10:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes! I'd even go so far as to limit to two (2).
And I especially like the newbies having to have first couple of posts reviewed!
It's obvious that someone or some entity has been attempting to hijack/sabotage this site for over a month now!
September 17, 2009 10:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Two should be enough, i agree.
September 17, 2009 11:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think maybe one. That's more than plenty.
(Do I hear 0.7?)
September 17, 2009 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
I believe the pledge affirms that all posts should be "indivisible, with liberty and recs for all."
September 17, 2009 11:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Casual Fridays?
September 17, 2009 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
One, or two. Not three.
Got a genius idea? Then you shouldn't have already posted two.
September 17, 2009 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think one blog a day is more than enough. And no blogs until you've posted a few comments.
September 17, 2009 11:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
s;dlfkasldjkf
September 17, 2009 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
sd;fliukrkkrku453973
September 17, 2009 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
OK, done, now I can start writing diaries.
:-)
September 17, 2009 12:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aren't those copies of a couple of your previous blogs? :)
September 17, 2009 12:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
See? :-)
And if you're running the cafe's "death panel", it'll take you 0.001 second to kill two of my comments that you simply didn't understand.
:-) :-)
September 17, 2009 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
No one has suggested that I run the death panel, but I like your way of thinking. And no one has suggested that I have the power to delete comments as well as blog posts. But that's a good suggestion as well.
I'll send those suggestions along to Josh with your recommendation. Thanks.
September 17, 2009 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lalo, your pe-existing condition is that you doth protest too much. You're outta here!
September 17, 2009 1:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
LMAO
September 17, 2009 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well done!
September 17, 2009 5:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well good for you . . .
I like mine medium rare . . .
Has anyone ever had celery medium rare?
Absolutely scrumptious.
~OGD~
September 17, 2009 8:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
And some method so more Senior readers can physically set fire to the comments of newbies. Seriously. I keep suggesting this, but all these "liberals" seem to think it'd be too harsh.
But just imagine. Some newbie asshole comes in and dares comment. And we just hit a button, then sit back and enjoy the show as their comment leaps into flames, blackening and curling around the edge, before falling away in ashes, leaving a black charred hole in the screen.
Wicked.
September 17, 2009 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think its too harsh since I was proposing there be some button for us more Senior readers to physically set fire to the newbies. Your idea seems like a fair compromise to me.
September 17, 2009 12:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
UGH, FIRE BAAAD!
September 17, 2009 12:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
And no post-dating, gotta get a bridal on that "dickday" fella.
September 17, 2009 11:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ha -- Johnnie: do you mean "post-dating....get a bridal on that dickday fella" in the sense of: a) no post-dating on submissions of blogs so that those who have done so in the past need a bridle?; or b) no flirtation allowed on posts, get a license and make it legal? Thanks for the laugh, in either case.
September 17, 2009 11:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
I was in no way implying a non-fraternization policy, I have my dreams.
September 17, 2009 12:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just sussed what you were saying; with your comment, it is much better this way.
Four years in Spain limited my vocabulary, looks like my spelling has also taken a hit.
September 17, 2009 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I, too, mispel, far more often than you do.
September 17, 2009 1:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
dd's the real culprit here! Probably behind the whole debacle. He so wants his to be the only posts here - he even has a picture in reserve ready for his coup - standing with arms outstretched (in his pj's of course) at helm of TPM - shouting 'I AM KING OF THE WORLD!'.
Of course, there are those who are part of this conspiracy - (Just initials of culprits include: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z! All dastardly connivers!)
September 17, 2009 11:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
I talked with Versha concerning the ongoing spam attacks and learned this:
TPM Cafe Reader Blogs is not just being spammed, but hacked. Despite having new user registration turned OFF, the poster(s) of the recent spam have been able to bypass this and post. Versha is aware of the new attacks by user matvashutra and is trying to find a way to close the security hole. This situation is VERY dangerous to the Reader Blogs and to TPM as a whole. My guess is the hackers have found a way to insert malicious code or at the very least, take advantage of a small code loophole that, if exploited further, could allow them access to the accounts or to the TPM root site.
PLEASE DO NOT mention this in a blog post or respond to this comment.
September 17, 2009 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Too late. Did you mean to be funny?
September 17, 2009 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Too late. Did you mean to be funny?
September 17, 2009 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Matvashutra-Orchestrated attacks?
September 17, 2009 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for this Rip ... I think I see the problem. They are using a version of MovableType with known security exploits. I don't think mentioning it here increases the security danger much - we're already compromised.
TPM bounces my personal email account for some reason ... so I did a technical no-no and used a client account to email them. Hopefully it goes through.
September 17, 2009 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gee, hi guys. Excellent suggestions all.
Just a quick redirect: not proposing any community participation in the admin here, or mission creep, or a change to the review policy for comments or the vast majority of blog posts. Just the electronic equivalent of a turnstile to get into the circus.
But that's largely because I'm an unimaginative clod. If we could somehow combine the idea of death panels and torching newbie screens .... oh the lulz.
September 17, 2009 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
My tech recommendation? You all to stop making tech recommendations.
September 17, 2009 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
What, and forego all the AWESOME comments that result?
September 17, 2009 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
OK. Apparently this approach is fraught with First Amendment issues (or Second Amendment in the case of Quinn Esq.) There is a wholly different approach, one which will probably be especially appealing to our more Conservative brothers and sisters. Suppose we follow the model of religious communities and institute a kind of Baptism. The Christian Baptismal rite is in fact an exorcism in which the godparents respond in the name of the newborn. When the priest asks the newborn “Do you renounce Satan and all his works?” the godparents respond in proxy for the initiate: “I do.” In our case each newbie would have to have blog-parents who are themselves already baptized who would certify that the newbie is a true Cafeterian.
We will need a minister. Mr. Day already possesses an unusual wardrobe and seems a good choice. We will need a small liturgy which among other things prescribes the ceremony but since this is a community of writers we may end up with a body of writing not unlike the Old Testament in size and diversity of topic. At some point there may be need for a kind of Council of Nicaea to craft a Creed that summarizes what it means to be a true Caféterian. A robust argument over principles - now who among us is not up for that?
And finally there is a difficult task that falls to one of us. Who will be our John The Baptist? Who will bring this idea to the entire world wide web, amidst the storm of spam and risking loosing his avatar in the process? Let us pray.
September 17, 2009 1:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
You may get few volunteers to be John the Baptist, but probably lots of volunteers to carry the platter, depending upon the identity of he who is ultimately designated as JtB.
September 17, 2009 1:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I suggest that you install a 'stinker' button feature (the opposite of recommending a post). If you have several thumbs down only, or 95% thumbs down and nearly no recs, dump it. We live in a democracy, no?
September 17, 2009 1:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fuck that shit, I love the spammer!!!
Turns out he/she/it broke into all my credit card accounts with information he hacked from this site. When he/she/it (sorry for that, it's a habit. I used to live right down the block from a sex change halfway house in San Francisco and had to employ the descriptive he/she/it often not knowing what stage they were in) saw my looming financial meltdown after 9 months of unemployment he/she/it used money from some of the conservative posters accounts which were also hacked to zero out my debt load. To those of you who contributed to the Clandesdun Bailout Program I’ll be eternally grateful (however not grateful enough to pay you back), I can actually use my federal extended benefits to buy food. To those of you who didn’t you’re a bunch of cheapassed barnyard animals, dogs, cats, robots, retirees, brooms, and assorted bastards and bastardettes.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled musings of power and domination.
September 17, 2009 2:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
This blog is your blog
This blog is my blog
From Alaskan Waters
To the NY Ferry
From Canadian Forests
To Gulf Stream Waters
This blog site was made for you and me
As I was writing
As I was Graphing
As I was linking
As I was citing
I came across a plea
A plea for peace
This blog was made for you and me
And I was reading
I found some reason
I found some sanity
I found some pining
I found some celebration
I found some desparation
This blog was made for you and me
So when I am ready
Ready to give up
When I think that no one
Really knows me
I read a strange comment
What am I to do
I see it is from Q
This blog is made from insanity
From the deep Confederacy
To the great wall to Texas
From northern climes
To farther northern climes
People find interest in
What is written here
This blog was made for you and me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tq7mWykxVQ&feature=related
I WEEP FOR MARY
September 17, 2009 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
You post-dated this comment, didn't you!
September 17, 2009 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then change your robes!
September 17, 2009 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
From Minneapolis...
To mighty Winnipeg,
All the posters,
Are pretty F'ing great...
But the rest of the continent,
Sure does suck hard,
Buncha weenies
from sea to shining sea.
etc.
September 17, 2009 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, all right! I'll be the monitor. You guys just can't help but feel that someone with my even handed temperment would do an excellent job of fighting the spam/trolls/unapproved off-message posts. I've got the right avatar, afterall. Yes, I'll do it.
hahahahahaha!!!!
September 17, 2009 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have also noticed that this site seems to be "reloading" or refreshing the page fairly frequently. Even if I have multiple TPM tabs open, they refresh with some regularity.
I'm using Firefox 3.53 on WinXP/SP3.
September 17, 2009 4:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
When you click on All Reader Posts, do you see more than you did on Recent Reader Posts? I don't; the Cafe page just leloads, both when i use MSN explorer and firefox.
September 17, 2009 4:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, when I scroll down they are listed in a column below the most rec'd posts (firefox). Several people have complaints about the site that I don't experience.
September 17, 2009 6:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Josh has a real decision to make with TPM... whether he wants a nice little boutique site (think Drudge) or whether he wants to be taken more seriously (as a true, large scale site) (think DailyKOS). Josh could, at this point, simply become one of those "experts" that the media needs to fill out talk show panels with a little site on the side, or he can try to make TPM more of like Nate Silver's site or Huffington Post. (For those ready to diss HP, save it. There is a lot of great stuff on that site, it's why it attracts all the ad dollars and is growing.)
I have no idea of how good Josh is as a historian, he has some interesting insights politically (although he needs to get a bit closer to the real action to be considered an expert in that area)...
... but he does not rank terribly well as a tech guy.
Some of the problems on TPM are at the amateur hour level. For months, ArtAppraiser has brought up the disappearing post problem -- still not fixed. Spamming the website? Months -- still not fixed. Recs? Too complex to fix for real. Ads? Ridiculous. Load times slow, bad ads, no control at all. The disastrous shifts in software selection and switching. Clocks under individual user's control.
The solutions are essentially amateurish -- in other words, they are what an intelligent person might do facing a situation. But they are not professional.
Part of the problem is that Josh hasn't even really stated clearly what he wants the Cafe to be -- except for the "something for everyone" line. That's lame and not business-like. As a result, since he can't define it for himself, he can't figure out what to do to fix the problems. Lalo's solution of personally tagging a poster for blockage is possible and doable. Check out http://slashdot.org/ for a wild west that has reasonable controls.
The other part of the problem is for Josh to recognize that he is at the point where he has to find some serious talent to pull together the website. That means going to NYU or Columbia's CS department and talking to some professors who can put him in touch with some grad student geeks to really work on the site. Or, in this modern age, maybe MIT or CMU where the real giants are. (Al Shaw may direct the team, but Al Shaw is clearly not an mega-geek. That is what is required here.)
Or be bold and talk to the competition. Who does HuffPo use? DailyKos?
The excuses of "well, this is difficult to do" is not acceptable with a real business. It's software. There are no serious laws of physics to be dealt with. You can fix these problems (particularly since they aren't that sophisticated) -- all of them. It may cost time and money -- and more than a little thought from Josh about picking direction -- but you can fix them.
Those sympathetic to those excuses are well meaning, but it's obvious they no little to nothing about the modern Internet.
There are many companies that never grow beyond their founders. That's cool. But it will be interesting to see what Josh wants to do here. You can only ride the 2006 wave for so long.
The times they are a changin'.
And they will be for members of the Cafe also. The fact we have "senior members" simply means that this clubhouse isn't that well known and therefore it has limited viewership. Even if the Cafe has 5000 regular (e.g. daily) readers -- and I don't believe that's the case -- that's spittle into the Internet ocean.
In my view, none of this would matter if Josh would keep the "top voted stories" from the Cafe off the front page. I still think that simply cherry picking what he wants to show there is the best policy. In that sense, it would give hackers/spammers less reason to attack TPM... because there is little reward for doing so.
As for Ripper's comment about "not posting or responding to the comment", that's laughable. Those who want to know how to do something, already know... if Ripper was really concerned about this info, he wouldn't have posted his comment at all. But such is the logic at the Cafe!
Not that my opinion matters in policy issues, but under no circumstances would I want a "loyal readership" to patrol here. That's the editors' jobs. That's how a professional site is run.
Our job is not to block ads (so that they can display and allow Josh revenue, even if we don't click through) and post blogs and comments.
It will be interesting to watch how Josh's thinking evolves in the next 6 months. Because either TPM will grow with the times... or be left behind.
Thanks kgb for some of the more intelligent comments here. I don't know what you do for a living, but you've made it clear for an intelligent layperson to at least educate themselves on the basic issues -- and then you go to a real pro to solve them.
September 17, 2009 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
comment rec.
September 17, 2009 6:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree. Its embarrassing to see some of the posts that get to the front page from the cafe. Especially when you look at some of the great posts that don't.
September 18, 2009 1:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
By the way, a very simple solution on the readers aggregate page is simple to show the first 20 lines of a block (including spaced between paragraphs) rather than have the user include a "read more" feature.
Posters should never have to concern themselves with providing formatting for a website -- the site should be taking care of that.
This solution would be automatic, rigid, affect all the same way, and keep things from disappearing too rapidly.
September 17, 2009 5:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
congratulations to all the posters that have seen fit to create issues that dont exist.
you finally made this place to boring and depressing to want to spend much time here.
September 17, 2009 5:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jade spammers attacked the cafe Monday morning and again this morning this is a very real problem.
September 17, 2009 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
What I would hate to see happen is that we bitch and moan so much that Josh just decides to dump the readers post section all together.
Versha has said that if we e-mail her the info, she'll dump the spam. Can we just wait and see if it works?
September 17, 2009 5:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stilli, the method of solution is still poor (e.g. by hand). That's not how Internet site are supposed to work... you have computers to help you with that!
I find it intriguing that TPM will go to hand-solutions for spam, but automatic solutions for generating front page content (e.g. votes). Seems like a reverse editorial control policy to me.
Lastly: if the Cafe is dumped (and I doubt it will be), it would be very easy for the "main group" to re-constitute itself on a blog somewhere. Sometimes the Cafe is simply a static version of the chat room (within the last week there have already been several posts referencing topics in the privately run chat room).
September 17, 2009 6:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
My guess is that TPM is a custom design. It's possible Josh paid for the design and part of the deal was that TPM staff does the administration and basic maintenance and troubleshooting. However, to "fix" a problem using any of the suggestions in this thread would require writing new code, and maybe he doesn't have the freedom to do that from his end.
September 17, 2009 8:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Given the usual vitriol from you, I'll be kind and simply say that's not how it typically works -- even if you have a "custom design." Indeed, most corporate websites are custom designs, but the internal modules are quite independently flexible.
It's simply knowing what you are doing. As a simple analogy, you can always tell a newbie Powerpoint person because they will have files of 10MB or more. There are "compress" commands that will trim and compress photos down -- and viola! -- something manageable.
Moreover, security issues are significant issues.
I have no true idea on how difficult it would be to "fix" the present code he has. But if the code is that difficult to fix, I will state without reservation that it was awful code to begin with.
One thing is for certain -- it won't be any easier in the future. As I said, it's time for him to take the general technical issues associated with running a professional website very seriously. In a real operation, Alan Shaw would not be the go-to tech person for issues like these. Most small companies can't afford to hire those people full time, so they hire consultants on an as-needed basis.
That TPM is getting hacked is sort of a good sign -- it means it has a web presence. You don't get to be a target if no one is looking at you. As such, Josh's game needs to bump up a level as well (because of the web presence, not because of the hacking).
September 17, 2009 9:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are pretty much spot-on with this. The site appears to use MovableType pro with the "commercial pack" and "community pack" - all out-of-the box solutions. It is plugin based, so the top-line suggestions I made wouldn't take programming beyond simply installing a plugin (but I did highlight an incompatible plugin dammit). Many of the suggestions in the comments would likely be a royal pain in the ass.
But my suggestions won't fix the problem because as Ripper points out upthread, the site is being literally hacked. I did a bit of poking around and according to the version reported in my dashboard, they are 5 versions behind in terms of updates. When using a CMS, that's just asking for trouble. According to a number of security orgs, our version contains several known exploits. There are actually some very nasty possibilities. We are likely lucky they are just spamming.
The spammer could theoretically be using an undocumented exploit, but when you've got software with known holes it seems logical to close those first and see if it fixes the problem. I emailed TPM's "talk@" address (if it went through) so hopefully they update and at least eliminate the known security issues. It should be a largely painless click-click process - if they have a backup strategy already in place (don't ever update the backbone without a backup!). I think the problem likely won't go away until the little version number at the bottom of the "create entry" screen switches from 4.21 to 4.26.
I really bite my tongue about the IT capacities here, but I think you are right. They don't seem to have an actual network/backbone guy - they likely view IT from a web designer standpoint (.css, html, etc.). He's got a pretty big staff now and the site is his bread-and-butter, I'm sort of surprised Josh hasn't gotten a consultant on this already.
September 17, 2009 10:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
I saw the lack of updating too, although I didn't want to bring it out explicitly here. That's pretty inexcusable in my mind were I the boss of TPM -- especially if you are getting hacked. That's why I labeled some of this as "amateur hour."
I see this entirely through the eyes of whether TPM will evolve and grow or Josh moves onto something else (indeed, he is the strongest brand here -- not TPM).
September 18, 2009 12:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm working with a website now that's in the redesign phase, and some of the architecture issues seem similar to TPM's, that's all.
There's no need to continually bash Al, btw. Once is plenty.
September 18, 2009 12:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
You don't need to lecture anyone on bashing given your long history of pure vitriol and self-admitted baiting. You are working with someone else's website? How nice for you. If you look at my response to kgb's comment you will understand things better.
September 18, 2009 12:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
I wasn't baiting you, clearthinker. But I'm pretty sure you have no fucking clue what the limitations are to Josh's set-up.
September 18, 2009 1:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
And I mean you clearly don't know both the technical limitations or the business limitations.
September 18, 2009 1:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Not baiting here... but on another recent thread where you literally said you were just seeing if you could get a rise out of someone.
No wonder you are an editor and not a writer -- you can't express yourself without expletives.
September 18, 2009 2:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't feel baited, c, and I'll attempt to explain myself, fwiw.
I don't try to get "rises" out of people for sport. I try to challenge people to look at their writing, to really look at what they are saying. So I focus on their message. I'm not sure what comment you are referring to, but it's possible you misunderstood me. It's also possible I didn't express myself well enough.
My ego is not a factor in my comments, but I understand that people's egos are a factor in their blogs. How someone expresses themselves in a blog determines how I will choose to offer a critique.
One of the biggest problems on this site is how quickly blogs cycle out of view. Therefore, the comments are necessarily quick, too. Sometimes that requires sharpness. The pace of blog posting here means subtlety is often missed.
I am not invested in persuading people. I am not here to hone my political debating skills. I am not here to play games.
You may not appreciate my style or approve of my language, and you may not agree with what I have to say: that's entirely your prerogative. But the real world of publishing is much harsher than I am: The real world will just ignore you completely.
I am both a writer and an editor; I have honest-to-god, real-world training in both, and I get paid in both capacities. I am currently working on a series of articles for the website I mentioned, but I'm also involved in advising on the redesign from a user's pov. I work with the director, the managing editor for technology, and the web designer directly. I've learned a lot about the technical and business limitations for that project, although I am not claiming to be an expert on the subject in any way whatsoever.
Besides the current articles I'm working on, I have previously published work for print publications, some of which is "reprinted" online. So far, everything I've written for print is in a field that has nothing to do with politics. That's why I don't use my real name: to keep my politics separate from my professional life. Perhaps you do the same.
Actually, using expletives is more accepted in writing than in editing. If you think about it, that should make sense. Editors need to be diplomatic.
September 18, 2009 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting that Salon's "Open Salon" site, which I just found out about today,
http://open.salon.com/most_recent
seems to have exactly the same software system as TPM Cafe, but it also has features people have asked for here but were told were not possible without a lot of work.
They have rating of posts.
They have a section of editor picks posts,
as well as recent reader posts section of all posts that the Cafe has.
And more importantly, those pages are not cut off at an arbitrary number fitting a single page, but continue with pages 2, 3, 4, 5....chronologically. That makes it possible for readers to see all posts from a minute ago to days ago if they want, so there is no need to beg for recommendations lest one's post disappear, possibly because a bunch of spam has been posted (you would just scroll past the spam,) or it was an active day.
And those recommended posts? They have their own page, too, not just a menu.
Yeah, they don't put introtext on the pages like the Cafe does; you do have to click through to read--all the better for reader posters developing some skill at headline writing, mho.
September 18, 2009 6:02 PM | Reply | Permalink