Teabags and town halls - is this battle even necessary?
I've been pondering the whole situation with the violence unfolding at the health care "town halls". My initial reaction was, of course, "let them try that crap with me, and they'll see what's really up!". Even pondered going on road trips to WA and MT to "show support". But after watching the videos from that Florida debacle, I got a vivid image of myself toe-to-toe with an 80 year old, and the most overwhelming feeling was ... embarrassment. It made me realize that maybe we're looking at this situation all wrong.
There is a premise that somehow we've got to "win" at the town halls. But why? The whole town-hall thing really gained popularity as a sham conducted by George Bush to wrap himself in the illusion of popular support. The reason they worked is because they were stage managed, not because it's a good format to discuss things. Now, I know there's more to it than that but at this point, it's pretty much the truth.
It seems there is little, if anything, to lose by refusing this fight all together. If the goal is to present the health care proposals as serious plans by people who care and want to address the policy seriously - what is to be gained by engaging in a juvenile fight with a bunch of teabaggers? What does the policy fight lose by ceding this battlefield? Now that their forces and resources are committed to this tactic, it could be time to use guile and do an end-run around their dumb-asses. Leave them looking batshit-crazy for the teevees, and find a better way to maintain contact with the legislators.
Instead, I propose a campaign of quietly visiting the local field offices of representatives. Most of the time, these offices are not very busy at all and there is often a staffer who can actually spend some time talking. Articulate that you don't want to have to worry about being targeted by a crazed Glenn Beck fan to let the representative know your dedication to real reform. Ask the staffer for help. In the current environment, I think that would leave a bigger impression than trying to make "our" side seem bigger than "their" side for the cameras by joining the crazies in the mud.
Another thought about how to amplify a quiet personal visit is the use of a mini-petition. In other words, get the support of like minded neighbors who may not be able to go themselves - or articulate the issues as well. If progressives could quietly deliver signatures, five or ten at a time, in person, with respect, wouldn't that send a much more effective message than having fisticuffs with an angry geriatric who spends way too much time watching TV?
I don't know exactly what the petition should say .... maybe something simple like "We put our support behind the democratic plan and the progressive caucus, including a strong public option. Please don't play politics with our health." And just ten signature lines or something - with local addresses (and probably an "ok to contact with more info Yes/No check box").
So that's my idea for how to deal with the recess. My rep is Walt Minnick ... and he's a total ass-clown who's already committed to obstructing. But that's the approach I'm going to take to try and get my opinion noted. I don't see why I need to fight with anger against a mob - when the new dynamic let's me ask for personal attention based on legitimate desire to avoid violent crazies.
I just don't think this round is going to be won by going toe-to-toe at town halls. Let them go crazy-town by themselves and be totally discredited, yet again.
There is a premise that somehow we've got to "win" at the town halls. But why? The whole town-hall thing really gained popularity as a sham conducted by George Bush to wrap himself in the illusion of popular support. The reason they worked is because they were stage managed, not because it's a good format to discuss things. Now, I know there's more to it than that but at this point, it's pretty much the truth.
It seems there is little, if anything, to lose by refusing this fight all together. If the goal is to present the health care proposals as serious plans by people who care and want to address the policy seriously - what is to be gained by engaging in a juvenile fight with a bunch of teabaggers? What does the policy fight lose by ceding this battlefield? Now that their forces and resources are committed to this tactic, it could be time to use guile and do an end-run around their dumb-asses. Leave them looking batshit-crazy for the teevees, and find a better way to maintain contact with the legislators.
Instead, I propose a campaign of quietly visiting the local field offices of representatives. Most of the time, these offices are not very busy at all and there is often a staffer who can actually spend some time talking. Articulate that you don't want to have to worry about being targeted by a crazed Glenn Beck fan to let the representative know your dedication to real reform. Ask the staffer for help. In the current environment, I think that would leave a bigger impression than trying to make "our" side seem bigger than "their" side for the cameras by joining the crazies in the mud.
Another thought about how to amplify a quiet personal visit is the use of a mini-petition. In other words, get the support of like minded neighbors who may not be able to go themselves - or articulate the issues as well. If progressives could quietly deliver signatures, five or ten at a time, in person, with respect, wouldn't that send a much more effective message than having fisticuffs with an angry geriatric who spends way too much time watching TV?
I don't know exactly what the petition should say .... maybe something simple like "We put our support behind the democratic plan and the progressive caucus, including a strong public option. Please don't play politics with our health." And just ten signature lines or something - with local addresses (and probably an "ok to contact with more info Yes/No check box").
So that's my idea for how to deal with the recess. My rep is Walt Minnick ... and he's a total ass-clown who's already committed to obstructing. But that's the approach I'm going to take to try and get my opinion noted. I don't see why I need to fight with anger against a mob - when the new dynamic let's me ask for personal attention based on legitimate desire to avoid violent crazies.
I just don't think this round is going to be won by going toe-to-toe at town halls. Let them go crazy-town by themselves and be totally discredited, yet again.
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Yep yep.
August 7, 2009 5:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think you make a good point that we cannot let the opposition totally define the battleground. There are alternative ways of getting Reformist views into the mix, and each and every one of them should be used to the maximum. WE are the majority - it's our place to define the terms of the battle.
At the same time, Reformists and their potential Congressional supporters have to develop a thoughtful, but essentially ruthless strategy to deal with these 'Town Hall' confrontations. As I see it, if you're a Congressional Democrat, you have 3 broad options:
(1)Hold the thing, but plan your turnout to make sure you have plenty of 'spontaneous' help, the kind of help that doesn't mind mixing it up a little.
(2)Decline to hold it, explaining that 'extremists' have rendered it useless as a genuine public forum.
(3)Dive-in head first ad hoc, and get yourself and your position publicly bloodied.
From here: 1 or 2 is OK. 3 is a non-starter - the largest message that shows from there is confusion and weakness.
August 7, 2009 8:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Most of the oppositional clowns come parroting things they have been told that aren't true and when they come to Town Halls a lot of them are assembled in one place. They are attempting to bluff the congress people with their furor and disrupt one of the means that the politicians use to explain what the legislation is doing. It might be worth taking the time at the start of the meeting to debunk some of the more obvious lies. I'd start with the one about euthanesia.
You might start by having a moderator announce that they know that some of the people have come because they have been scared by a lot of lies and that others have come under instructions to disrupt the meeting but that they are going to try to present the true facts. If you could have a back drop of projection of the instructions and of the various sections which are being misrepresented it would help.
How often do you have this particular group as a captive audience to educate?
You could also have individuals in line and walking the line with educational pieces about the actual state of affairs. It is tedious to unpack the rather stupid lies and to state all the true facts in a clear and straight forward form but it might be worth while.
I have found while doing this in line at a town hall that it does take some of the more vociferous aback if you ask them if they voted for Bush and if they believed in WMDs. They seem to know that they were taken which was more than I expected from them.
August 7, 2009 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
HA! Did they vote for Bush?!? Yeah, admitting that IS embarassing. Way to put them on the defensive!
August 7, 2009 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
yes, good point.
I think I arrived at a similar conclusion a few days back.
Something about how the fight here is really not with the astroturf- roots, NO-for-hire crowds.
They lost.
Or rather, the conservative thugs who distort demonize and delay for a living, lost.
Badly, in November 2008 and even worse in November 2006.
They only win as long as the truth loses.
August 7, 2009 8:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
KGB - do you realize that if the Congress rammed this bill before the August recess, as Pelosi and Obama had been insisting, there would be no "dialog" at townhalls?
And if Obama can only fight the astroturfing by sending in the SEIU to "give cover" to the members of Congress and act as townhall police, when he failed to push the bill without a public debate, then yes - it's fast becoming the theater of absurd and a demostration that he's not any of it himself.
August 7, 2009 9:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, the public "debate" occurred during the election. Obama's healthcare reform ideas were elected over John McCain's, and Democrats who touted Obama's healthcare platform were elected over Republicans across the nation. Majority wins in a democracy.
However, once in power, the Democrats began changing the dialog, and that is when they lost the upper hand in the debate, and quite possibly lost real healthcare reform in this country forever. Democrats were elected to make good on campaign promises, however vague. They were most definitely not elected to negate the spirit of those promises with a bill that embodies a cynical, bastardized version of the same old backroom bullshit.
Obama never seems to learn the lesson that he loses when he backpedals and waffles and doesn't deliver what he said he would. It's a mistake he makes over and over, and the public responds in poll surveys.
Anyway, like it or not, the public has already had the chance to "debate" healthcare reform. It occurred all last year, and we voted on it in November.
You can argue that the public has the right to debate the actual bill itself, which is true in theory, but that's not what's happening at the town halls, anywhere in the mainstream media, or in any other public forum.
But since the actual bill is so far afield from what Obama originally promised and the majority of the people voted for in November anyway, it likely won't pass because it's a weak and expensive bill.
August 7, 2009 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
"the public "debate" occurred "
- I don't think so.
The public debate was about McCain/Palin versus Obama/Biden and not about healthcare at all. It was not a health care referendum by any means.
The only healthcare debate I remember was when Obama was attacking Hillary for offering the healthcare plan that is a lot closer to what is proposed today. He was against it before he was for it.
August 7, 2009 2:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
You must have missed the discussion about mandates and "universal coverage" in the mainstream press in 2008.
August 7, 2009 3:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
See also the WSJ and TIME from 2008.
August 7, 2009 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Health Care Blog's assessment.
The Heritage Foundation's assessment.
August 7, 2009 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Commonwealth Fund's comparison of Obama's and McCain's plans.
Obama's Harry and Louise mailers.
August 7, 2009 3:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gross! I linked the Heritage Foundation twice!
Here's The Commonwealth Fund.
I could go on with links to back up my claim about Dems who used Obama's health care reform mantra to get elected if you want, but I believe my point has likely been made. Health care reform has been analyzed, discussed, and debated in public ad nauseam. After all the press about it during the primaries, it became elevated to pivotal importance in the 2008 election, and in the end, the majority voted for Obama's plan.
August 7, 2009 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for all the links. That was pretty much my memory also. Before the economy blew up in September, the combination of Iraq and Health care pretty much WAS the debate - with everyone pretty much agreeing Iraq was winding down one way or another. (Along with some nonsense about inflating tires and a gas tax holiday).
August 7, 2009 9:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey! Doesn't that sort of mean you were for it before you were against it?
I hated mandates then, and I hate mandates now. If they cram mandates down our throats without a significant paradigm shift, we're all screwed.
August 7, 2009 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am kind of a broken record about this point because I think it needs to be repeated often;
There is a huge difference between the perception of political consensus and the reality of the political mood at any one moment. That is why all of these teabaggers are holding up their cameras and cell phones, their priority is to create the impression of a groundswell of opposition with the help of the MSM. Add to that the millions of dollars that lobbying groups spend to craft their own carefully scripted polling questions in order to present the appearance of public support for their corporate interests.
With so much misinformation, propaganda and PR dominating the media landscape I think it is very hard to tell where the electorate is right now. But for the last ten years at least there has been a marked divergence between public opinion as it is measured by actual elections and the media narratives that pretend to reflect those opinions. So is it worth while to engage in the battle of perceptions? I don’t think we can afford to cede that ground entirely. But we can’t afford to let that misdirect our focus on what counts; actual participation in the political process by a growing population of young and minority voters who don’t take their cues from the MSM.
So, yeah, go visit your local office and bring a friend. Be nice, be specific and follow it up with a phone call and a fax.
August 7, 2009 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
very smart, thanks
August 7, 2009 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah I think you're right, this was a spontaneous idea on my part ... there has to be some way to achieve the goals that doesn't make the reformers look just as angry and crazy as the obstructionists.
I really liked the idea downthread of borrowing tape-over-the-mouth from the Iranians.
August 7, 2009 9:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for writing this. I, too, have an ass clown as a representative, and have been thinking about what I can do. I'm so angry that I'll need to take several deep breaths to be calm.....but I think that, ultimately, this may be a way to go.
August 7, 2009 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
KGB, I think you are right about not engaging them. However if we are to continue with townhall events i think i have a solution for getting rid of some of these teabagging crowds...Rap Music.
I am kinda joking but i think it could work. If we were to play some rap music loudly both outside and inside the event before the representative takes the podium I think these people will leave. Judging by the demographic (Old white people from rural areas)they cant stand rap music. Especially the elderly. I say 20 minutes of some Lil Wayne and these people will be fleeing for the doors. Just a theory.
August 7, 2009 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL! I love it ... maybe someone famous could rap out a theme-song for the occasion.
Either you'll drive 'em off or start a serious riot.
August 7, 2009 9:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's my view. These hooligans and thugs are trying to wrest the wheel of the ship of state away from our elected officials.
I think Obama needs to demonstrate who's at the wheel. And Pelosi and Reed should call back the Congress and address this. They should consider health care to be part of national defense and an aide to the economy - as who will want to invest in a sick nation and how easily is a sick nation prey to forces like withdrawal of investments or other ways of taking down the economy.
Those who should be steering the ship of state should vow to get health care right - irregardless of whether or not they are re-elected. They should put the longterm good of America above the special interests, the mobsters, the hooligans goons, the moneyed classes who care little about the health of the uninsured or those burdened by illness.
This is a national defense issue, in my view. It relates to the Rule of Law. Health care is a social good - not a commodity. We ignore it at our peril.
Thanks for your blog. I truly believe the President and the Congress must intervene. You've saved me writing a blog on this. Feel free to update your post and include any ideas, which further your aims. (Mine are totally at your disposal if you choose to use them. No credit is necessary. We are all working together to salvage a society which is headed for dangerous waters - unless there is careful steering by brave patriots - who put the nation above their careers.)
August 7, 2009 12:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would love to see Obama do that. He won the election and now it is time for him to lead.
Secondary benefit; It will drive teabaggers further 'round the bend and make it even more difficult for Republican leaders to justify the madness.
August 7, 2009 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know what's wrong with the leadership. This whole bipartisan fetish was an out of the blue end-of-campaign competition between McCain and Obama that's metastasized into something really negative. Of all the things Obama has seemingly abandoned with ease - I can't for the life of me understand his dedication to the fallacy that you must partner with someone who wants to destroy you. America elected these guys to enact policy not babysit opposition egos.
But one thing that I'm coming to realize is that the right response is not to answer angry hate with more anger. It just seems to feed it. The question is, and I don't really have the answer, how to break the cycle. Obviously reason isn't going to do it, we've just go to figure out how to get the job done without feeding the beast.
August 7, 2009 10:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just have to say, we won the damn election already. We shouldn't have to put up with another 6 months of robocalls, rallies, daily emails asking for money, and ridiculous lies about Obama killing Grandma.
August 7, 2009 1:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
We should choose our battles and we should get publicity. I think there are a lot of people who thought getting Obama and the Dems would get it done. It has not, YET, and these folks are discouraged. They need to see signs that the vast majority of people want HC Reform regardless of how noise the opponents and media mercenaries are.
August 7, 2009 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
You raise some good points. I think mini petitions are an excellent idea. I'm sure there are a lot of very interested folks who, for whatever reason, just aren't inclined to participate in a large organized event. For those who are waivering, or just uninformed, what better way to way to reach them than neighbors talking to each other? The nice thing about the mini petition is there's no critical mass requirement for having it be a success. Thanks, KGB!
---s
August 7, 2009 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
town halls, now the backdrop for gatling guns of mindless rage.
Is it democracy in action? Or democracy inaction?
August 7, 2009 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
If progressives will not go to the teabag rally - the teabag rally must come to the progressives?
August 7, 2009 9:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think the anger that we are seeing from the teabaggers began when S. Palin tried inciting this type of behavior at her rallies. These people have been waiting for an excuse for a call to arms since then and they finally found that excuse in Healthcare reform.
Organizers are presenting the exact same argument on healthcare as they did in the general election, that Obama is trying to usher in socialism, attempting a government takeover, etc... and it really gets the reaction from the people that they are looking for.
The premise worked very well during those rallies and now they are just applying that same starategy today but focussed on healthcare.
August 7, 2009 3:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is it THAT difficult for reps to set up their town hall meetings in such a way to minimize/eliminate the Teabag Effect? Am I missing something obvious?
F'rinstance:
-ANY consituent can make a comment/ask a question, but within a time limit (30-seconds, 45-seconds, 60-seconds, etc).
-Rep./Sen. can then answer the question and/or discuss the point(s) addressed by the consituent, with unlimited time to do so.
-This way, the nut-job teabaggers can make their stoopid points about mandatory euthanasia for the elderly, government bureaucrats denying you healthcare (unlike the ins. co. reps who don't get paid bonuses for denying your claim), etc. and then the Rep./Sen. can debunk the disinformation and get the real info out there.
There was some post or comment in one of the MANY healthcare reform articles on TPM that made the point that the best way to fight misinformation is to call it out and refute it with the truth. Not sure that ceding the town hall forums to the teabaggers is the best way to accomplish this.
August 7, 2009 4:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
As you suggest, there may be some common sense ways to help tamp this down. It's certainly worth a try.
On the other hand, I'm thankful Democrats don't resort to the sort of tactics we remember at rallies for Bush 2004: no unscripted questions, loyalty oaths for attendees, secret service agents pressed to squelch any hint of dissent. Yes, these things really did happen.
That Democratic forums strive to remain open and fair, even when sorely tested, speaks well of our guiding principles. I don't think this point is made often or forcefully enough.
---s
August 7, 2009 6:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow,KGB, what a response!!!
Yeah I like your idea. Its simple.
But I also like the comments. I mean showing up at an event already scheduled is not that bad a thing in order to show support. Maybe bring a bunch of petitions and show up as a group in front of the 'arena'
Great post. People are really upset about this.
August 7, 2009 4:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
This was one of those off-the-top-of-the-head ideas, I didn't really expect much notice.
Just did a quick scan and you're right, there's some really good stuff in the comments. Heck of a day to be out and about ... looks like I missed a good discussion.
August 7, 2009 9:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
In your district, gathering these signatures and delivering the same to a Congress critter who does not support health care or health insurance reform may be a peaceful way to work off some steam.
But in a district with a Congress critter who supports these reforms, then I think that person needs a show of support and a turn-out at these public events of those supporters. This bolsters that person as well as provide visual proof of that support.
There may be a need for different tactics depending on the district.
August 7, 2009 5:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
An excellent point, cube3u.
Since the baggers are playing to the media, the whole thing has become theater. Maybe the drowned out voices should borrow from the Iranian opposition and come to the hijacked meetings with tape over their mouths.
August 7, 2009 8:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I *really* like that idea. There has to be some way to differentiate from the mob. Right now everyone yelling just look pissed, it seems to give the perception that they all are wingnuts.
That could make a pretty powerful image - and at the same time cast the GOPpers in the role of Iranian hardliners.
Srsly, that's pretty good.
August 7, 2009 9:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice!
August 7, 2009 11:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah. There's going to be no single solution. Honestly, up here I think we're not likely to have the same aggressive tactics (or town halls, really) - that's one reason I thought maybe showing support in WA or MT might be helpful (and what made me realize joining a counter-mob wasn't what I wanted to accomplish).
So while I will be stopping by to chat on Monday ... this was more of an idea for people who don't want to be shut out of the process to get their voices heard in places where the mob-squad is being aggressively confrontational.
August 7, 2009 9:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
If they want a media event, why not organize some really interesting counter protests? I'm thinking like the clowns that so effectively shut down Neo Nazi groups. How about mass freezes with people holding signs? Any cheerleading groups out there wanna step up and bounce around for Health Care Reform? If the only way to get on the TV is to put on a show, put on a freakin show! Get local musicians out and set up stages for them to play on. Get local skit comedy troops to come out and do faux debates on Health Care. We've got brains and humor, right? Let's use 'em! I do like the suggestion here though, to go to your representative outside of the town hall meetings and give them some friendly face time. We can counter this rabid group of ninnies. Let's make them look as ridiculous as they are...
Them: "Obama's plan is Euthanasia!"
Clowns: "Youth in Asia? Where, Japan? What are they doing there!?"
Them: "Open the doors!"
Clowns: "Open the Coors?" *run around with beer cans*
Get an Orly Taitz impersonator and have her debate an Obama impersonator. That should be good for some lulz:p
August 7, 2009 8:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
*grin*
August 7, 2009 9:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Countering their mob techniques with a pro-reform flash mob might be fun, too. Even as I type this, I'm getting an image of a flash mob coming together to perform their best stage deaths on the lawn of the local BCBS headquarters.
August 8, 2009 1:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks a lot to everyone who added to this thread. I can't respond to all the comments ... but they are all appreciated!
August 7, 2009 10:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you so much for posting this. I was actually just thinking "maybe I should make a trip to the field office" after hours of depressed thought-turning about the impossibility of breaking through this din. I feel so much better after reading this. The mini-petition seems like it has some potential, too. Or maybe just a few brief written statements about friends'/neighbors'/co-workers' personal stake in reform. Everyone I know has at least one story that illustrates the need to change our current system. Maybe I could collect them and present them at the field office as a quieter response to the rabid right protesters.
Anyway, thanks again for the reassurance that someone is finding more productive channels of dialogue, and for spurring me to think more productively again, too.
August 8, 2009 1:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama's gonna kill Grandma?
See:
http://notionscapital.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/obama-wants-to-kill-your-grandma/
August 7, 2009 11:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama's gonna kill Grandma?
See:
http://notionscapital.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/obama-wants-to-kill-your-grandma/
August 7, 2009 11:45 PM | Reply | Permalink