Obama, Torture Memo's, and Why Life Just IS NOT FAIR!
There has been much debate and controversy surrounding the torture memo's, Obama's decision to release them and his decision on whether or not to prosecute those responsible.
I do not pretend to be anywhere near as versed on these issues as the many of the bloggers/commentators I have been reading.
This post is not to debate the valid points previously discussed. This post is not intended to be political in nature - about agenda's, power plays, who knew what, who did what or even who deserves what.
It is about the elephant in the room of public opinion - the pesky issue of every action/decision having an equal and opposite reaction. That the laws of nature and humanity are outside our scope of control. Adversely, this situation, like all situations, CAN NOT be molded into a win/win for all. There are alway winners and always losers - there is no way around it - nothing is ever completely equitable - nothing is fair!
It is hard to accept this. Hard to accept that the proverbial 'playing field' can never be truly level and that no matter what, 'the score' is in a perpetual state of unsettle. Frustratingly enough, there is not one goddamn thing that you, me, our country as a whole, OR President Obama can do about it.
The best President Obama (or anyone for that matter) can do is make a thoughtful, researched decision. A decision that in the end, has the least adverse affects, on the least amount of innocent people. Just as the best we could do as a country was make a thoughtful, researched decision on who we want making tough decisions such as these on our behalf. I feel we could not have done better in this area.
Any perceived unfairness is hard to accept. I used to hate it when my mom would tell me, 'Life isn't fair'! I want fair! We all do! It's human nature to try and skirt this 'fairness' bullshit by attempting to marginalize everything into - black or white. We take comfort in our perceived control. We pat ourselves on the back when we feel we 'have cracked the case' and found a way to right the wrongs. We focus on the one or two facets of an issue and become blind to the big picture. We never reflect on the fallout, the domino effect, that righting one small aspect of a much larger picture, has caused. It has got to be FAIR! Justice for all, right?
There are a lot of people angry at Obama right now. They are saying he is making decisions based solely on politics or that he is skirting the issues. What they do not realize is that they are actually angry at him for not playing their marginalization game. They want him to narrow his scope and just right these wrongs, already! After all, that is what we as a country have become accustomed to thanks to our former leaders. The, 'Hey everyone! Look at the shiny object!' approach to governing. We all stare at the pretty object that has been hung over our heads while thousands of people suffer (or in the case of Iraq, die) because of the consequences caused by this one faceted decision that we have all feel so good about. We sleep soundly at night, approval ratings skyrocket, and we never turn around to see the carnage that was left in our wake. Pretty shiny - 911!
Deep down we all know that nothing is all black and nothing is all white. We fear that mom was right, life really isn't fair. We know the only 'justice' that can be counted on is that found through your own spirituality - faith - your consciousness - your soul - karma - The Universal Powers that be.
No matter what decision Obama makes I am confident that it will not be one-dimensional and that he is the best man, no, the only man for this job. I know that it is not fair to us as a country to not see the Bush administration officials punished in the we see fit. Just as I really start to feel sorry for us and our guilty consciouses, I realized that it is also not fair that so many innocent Iraqi's have died, that Obama inherited this mess and that Bush will never have to pay for his atrocities. He will live out his days in the lap of luxury and although his soul will know the truth, he will never gather the courage to turn to see his personal wake of carnage.
Life just really isn't fair, is it? Too bad for us. We should all quit waiting for our due. It's not coming.
















So you are just going to let President Obama handle this and take no responsibility?
Not sure how "Mom" would feel about that. President Obama said that he needs us to be involved. I don't plan on ducking out. Working for change didn't stop on January 20th.
It just started.
April 27, 2009 7:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're making an awful lot of assumptions here. Starting with assuming the laws of physics apply to society.
I'm with bwak!
April 27, 2009 7:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
No idea what you're talking about. Torture is illegal.
April 27, 2009 8:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes! Why on earth do so many question this fact, It has been decided since World War II. This is ignored over & over, makes me want to tear my hair out. IT IS ILLEGAL!
April 27, 2009 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Life is unfair, so let's just get on with torture, racism, discrimination, genocide.
And then let's take it even further and use "life is unfair" to justify various unpleasant things we do or plan to do to others.
But of course you're not far into extremes.
You're simply an apologist in training.
Oh, and I'm not sorry if this was rude. Life is just not fair.
April 27, 2009 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree wholeheartedly that life is not fair. And I am one of those moms who used that line repeatedly (whoever told you life is fair, lied!)
If life were fair, some children wouldn't starve, while others have more food than they could possibly eat.
But, that doesn't mean we stop trying to make it fair. We should never stop trying...
April 27, 2009 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
HI STILLI. LOOK AT THIS!!! HAHAHAHAHA
April 27, 2009 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Look at what? Are you commenting from your new computer????
April 27, 2009 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
You people writing comments seem to be missing the point. Some of you have made comments on my posts - and I expect so much more from you - even if you're not agreeing with me.
You need to take a slightly deeper look at what this post is saying.
Your comments totally validate her point - and you have proven that you are no better than the ignorant evangelical closed minded Christian spouting off about hatred of fags.
Wouldn't it be great if President Obama made this a totally front page / lead the news cycle every night / put a ton of his time and energy into dealing with this every day for two and a half years- and the things we ALL agreed that our Country needs - the chance for once to pass progressive legislation and change our Country for the better not just for now - but permanently passes us by - as he's swept from office in a landslide because unemployment hits 20%, there are riots in the streets and we can't pay for our basic social services. YA - that would be great!
Just because you try to scream the loudest about how these people need to be prosecuted - doesn't mean you hate torture any more than the person who wrote this obviously does.
very sad and pathetic.
April 27, 2009 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
The assumption that underlies the post is that "Obama's a good man. Trust him to do the right thing. You may not get what you want and life isn't fair."
Many of those that think there ought to be prosecutions, I'd guess, are very, very glad that Obama is in the white house. It also might be true that the more people learn about (a) what was done (b) the reasons for it; and (c) the legal cover provided, the more pissed off they get. So from that perspective, I'd suggest your assumptions might need to be rechecked.
Finally, as to the "you have proven that you are no better than the ignorant evangelical closed minded Christian spouting off about hatred of fags." ad hominem responses you espouse--I think I have a feeling why you're less than thrilled with your feedback.
April 27, 2009 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who was rude and dismissive?
Aside from you, of course.
April 27, 2009 9:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's what I want to know!
April 27, 2009 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seems to me that the only ones saying that are the ones that are the most condescending, pompous asses this side of the blogosphere.
But hey, what do I know?
=D
April 27, 2009 10:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
I disagree with you vehemently on the torture issue Rev. I think it needs to be prosecuted. I think we need to have truth commissions regardless of the political costs. Some things are too important for politics and for me, the torture issue needs to be determined in the courts. Not because I fear President Obama abusing power, but I fear the next Dick Cheney who may view the lack of prosecution as if the president does it, it's not illegal.
But I do agree in terms of the tenor of debate. There's room to disagree on this issue and not personally attack those on the other side of the issue, but that's only if people are interested in genuine dialogue rather than just squawking.
April 27, 2009 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice.
Who squawked here? Tell me more. It seems to me no one has put up a blog complaining that people who feel deeply about torture are more elitist, hip, enlightened and more tolerant than those that don't. Or accused them of "screaming" (or squawking). I have seen blogs (like this one) that suggest that those who do feel deeply about it are immature 'screamers' who won't tolerate alternate opinion. They tend to scream that by the way, and it tends to annoy people.
It seems to me this is an issue that evokes strong emotion, and the last time I checked it was a free country. We are not required to agree that there even is another side. For some of us there isn't.
Life isn't fair.
=D
April 27, 2009 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's a hot button issue and it's left a lot of us hotheaded.
But in the long run, clear heads will hopefully prevail.
That being said, I myself cannot tolerate waffling on the issue and I think most of us here at TPM can't either, even if it means that some feelings get hurt or some emotions run too hot.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Bwak can obviously stand the heat. I myself have nibbled on her wings and have found them tastier than some of the more tasteless waffles I've been served.
April 27, 2009 11:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was wearing buffalo sauce that day.
April 27, 2009 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmmmmm....and it didn't even taste gamey!
April 27, 2009 11:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Someone should get out the kitchen? Whose kitchen is it? TPM welcomes opposing points of view and is not run by the majority or consensus. You may think that it's impressive to not be able to abide another point of view you see as waffling; I think that mindset is immature. What's the point of a conversation if all you want is to do is hear the people who agree with you and scream at the ones who don't? It becomes a shouting match not a conversation
April 27, 2009 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
No conversation has been stifled. None. I would like to point your attention to the primaries. Nothing like the shoutdown over Hillary is even remotely going on here. Barths blog was largely disagreed with, there were plenty of comments. Same with Eds. They have consistent logical arguments. Those that are incoherent are shouted down because they are incoherent. A lot of talk about this supposed shouting, but no evidence. Are you shouting? Am I?
Sorry, but disagreement is not equal to "screaming"
Maybe if you have no counter argument it's a good strawman. I for one am tired of it, and I'm hardly the only one.
April 27, 2009 11:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you could point out in the original poster's blog where people were accused of being screamers, it would be much appreciated. Or anything in the Rev's comment that deserved being referred to as "among the most condescending, pompous asses this side of the blogosphere." Sounds like ad hominem without an ounce of substance rather than a coherent argument. But whatever floats your boat. Rage on and accuse others of bullying =)
April 28, 2009 12:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
I was countering YOUR argument that people were bullying, and you have thus far dodged it.
Cute. I also asked the sock who was accused the people who commented here of bullying, so far, no one has pointed to a comment in this blog that was. Care to?
I'm sure you'll dissemble more, as you have throughout.
I'd really have expected you of all people to be able to back up your words.
(shrug)
You called TPM out. So show us. Who is the bully here?
April 28, 2009 12:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Where did I call people screamers? I'm kind of a loud mouth about issues I care about too. It's the tenor of the debate. Calling people torturers or monsters for disagreeing on how to handle the torture issue is bullshit ad hominem. If that's your idea of intellectual debate, kudos for you. I think it's bullying and childish and indicative of someone who isn't willing to debate the issue on it's own merits.
April 28, 2009 12:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh sorry, you called them squawkers. 2 points to you. Where did anyone call someone a monster. Link please. You never read the convo.
And you are no sort of friend. Because you didn't even bother to check source documents.
Bai!
April 28, 2009 12:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
(still waiting on that link)
April 28, 2009 8:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
SInce you asked for links, here is one.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/noblecommentdecider/2009/04/the-torture-was-cruel-butspare.php#comment-3442567
To imply that disagreement with your position makes one a monster... IS CALLING SOMEONE A MONSTER. Duh. That's not a coherent argument. It is adhominem and adds nothing to the debate. You can aslo go back and refer to the original lingr conversation which was much more offensive. Had someone said that to me, I would have called them a fucktard. O responded in a way without getting personal and calling you and Lis out to generate conversation about the heated topic. You continued to expand upon personal attacks.
Grow up and take responsibility for your own actions. I am not disappointed in getting personal in the heat of the moment. I am disappointed that after plenty of time for reflection you have no consideration for other people and accuse them of bullying you. As I linked up above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
April 28, 2009 8:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
April 27, 2009 11:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like I said.
Nice.
April 27, 2009 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I plan on having fun.
April 27, 2009 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, me too, honey.
April 27, 2009 11:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now, now, dears.....let's try to play nice.
April 27, 2009 11:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just want to chime in and remind everybody that all these worries about 'politizing' the process sure as shit didn't stop them from spending a hundred million plus investigating and then impeaching Clinton for a god damn blow job. We are foolish to think that our actions now will have any effect whatsoever on their future behavior.
The next Dick Cheney simply won't care (thats what would make him the next dick Cheney).
Anyway carry on.
April 28, 2009 12:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm finding it hard to become as actively outraged as most of the other commenters. I disapprove of Obama's failure to deal properly with the Bush administration's torture policy, but aside from writing Kay Bailey Hutchison and John Cornyn about it (about as productive as shooting a water pistol at a house fire), I'm not sure exactly what I'm supposed to do as a "good American" or "good liberal."
I guess I could tear my hair out--it's coming out in a few years on its own anyway.
April 27, 2009 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well we do know, or should know, that Obama is at least thinking before he takes a position on matters, and I am not sure he has taken a position on pushing ahead with a commission (or equivalent) on torture. It would be a great start to unravel the whole mess. I am sure his gut is saying let's have that commission, but not until the third year of this term or perhaps even the next term. I can see why he wants the economy, health care, and Iraq and host of other matters well taken care of without the massive distraction of a commission now. Guaranteed he will get to "looking back" soon.
April 27, 2009 5:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nothing is all black or all white... but Obama is the only man for the job?
You're a bit inconsistent there. I'd be less inclined to be dogmatic on the torture issue if Obama had shown any inclination to take stronger stands against other violations of human and civil rights. I know he can give a good speech. But when is going to have the courage to act?
As to life not being fair, of course life isn't fair. But then you aren't being tortured are you?
Reminds me of an cartoon showing a platter of bacon and eggs. Caption: the chicken was involved. The pig was committed.
April 27, 2009 6:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Really, Bluebell, I would like to thank you for being consistent. I think I am, too, even if we don't agree, we're, er real.
This is addressed to the angry and mean socks:
Look, the policy here is to limit your 'personalities' to one consistent one. We all enjoy a little spoofing now and then, but when one assembles socks to disparage the community at large, it probably is violating the terms of service.
So just... chill.
Thanks.
P.S You aren't all that funny, anyway. Humor that relies on putting down others generally is lame. Just sayin'.
April 27, 2009 9:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is this directed at someone besides crazedandconfused?
April 27, 2009 9:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is directed at socks. Mean socks.
April 27, 2009 10:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, mean Socks.
April 27, 2009 10:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ouch!
Katz, Oy!
April 27, 2009 10:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey look, it's Socks!
April 27, 2009 10:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yay Socks. So sad she's gone :( Socks would have been a much better Press Secretary than Gibbs.
April 27, 2009 10:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well socks woulda made a better prez than Bush.
=D
April 27, 2009 11:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
BTW, have you seen a blog that complains about shouting? I have, and it was inaccurate and when I tried to correct the information, the blog was taken down. That is beyond lame.
Torturers are into control, aren't they?
April 27, 2009 11:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I saw the blog and the reason it was taken down (your way out of line comments). It greatly reduced my opinion of you. Egads. As Thera would say, Go in Peace.
April 28, 2009 12:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah providing a link to said conversation doesn't equal out of line. Most people call it qualifying.
I'm not the one that put up the blog and misquoted.
THAT was out of line. Too bad. The feeling isn't mutual, but I understand you're stressed.
April 28, 2009 12:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bwak, I pulled the blog because you got personal. There was nothing to correct. It was 100% my opinion. For anyone who would like to read the vigorous and respectful debate that followed, the post is still at Dagblog:
http://dagblog.com/social-justice/i-am-monster-611
And if you are referring to me in your veiled innuendos, please rest assured that I am not referring to you in my comments over the last two days at TPM. You are always out of control, shouting and making things personal and I expect nothing less. There are others at TPM who are making arguments and using tactics to shout down debate. That is what I abhor. Not your hysteria. I consider that par for the course.
I've resisted responding to your little digs over the past week because they seem to me to be an attempt to engage me in the kind of knock-down-drag-out that you enjoy. I do not enjoy that, so I will not engage in it.
As TheraP would say, namaste.
April 28, 2009 12:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
You misquoted both LisB and I to make an incoherent point and to put us down. I don't think you really could expect us to just sit complacency by, No friend would.
I won't embarrass you again with putting the link up to the original argument, O, but it's obvious to more than a few of us that your arguments here are not coherent (it's unreal that you could agree with both Barth and Lalo), and very angry and condescending. Like I said, I do not appreciate being used as a punching bag.
Putting up a blog and then misconstruing the conversation to bolster your argument was lame. Especially without discussing it on other channels first. Wanting to delete the comments that didn't kiss your ass was lamer, and taking down the whole blog was even lamer. That's a whole mess of lame.
This isn't DAG, and we haz a new Queen.
I am sorry.
April 28, 2009 12:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oy, my last response on this issue, but if you didn't notice on O's blog on Dag basically everyone disagreed but I didn't see folks calling her a monster or a torturer or incoherent. Thy discussed the issue, not directed attacks on the person - something you may wish to learn how to do. Or not apparently. Orlando's post mentioned neither you nor Lis by name and when asked she didn't elaborate, yet you felt the need to make the whole issue personal public attacks.
You may want to move out of adolescent argument sometime. Or not, whatever. Some people never learn and are incapable of introspection at all. Well at least your new friends are fairly warned how you'll treat them eventually =)
Bai indeed.
April 28, 2009 8:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
That whole blog was a personal attack, Dija.
I didn't call her a monster. You might wish to learn how to be truthful.
Thanks.
April 28, 2009 8:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Orlando, thanks for posting that link. I sympathize with your position--a lot--and was heartened by the civility of the comments.
April 28, 2009 9:38 AM | Reply | Permalink