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Left Wing Obama Bashing
I am saddened by your Obama bashing.
I understand the concern of torture but to be honest, health care reform, social security, the economy specifically the job market are a 100 times more important at the moment since those policies will directly impact the majority of Americans! The media tends to focus the least on what are the most important issues to affect our children and us! All are unfortunately falling into that trap!
Focus, focus, focus!!
In response to comments:
Yes, torture is wrong, should not occur, affects thousands, however:
how many millions aren't receiving health care coverage?
how many millions can't pay for prescription medicine?
how many millions can't clothe and feed their children?
how many kids are receiving a sub par education?
I understand if it was my family member then I would want them to be helped, that is how i feel about the poor and disconnected that live in urban and rural areas in this country.
I am not saying torture crimes should not be prosecuted...but to be more of a concern than healthcare, education, I don't think so...
We can focus on torture while the power less who live here in the usa, aren't receiving basic needs...that is a moral concern also.
UPDATE:
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with Obama, but the left wing bloggers and commentators who are crucifying him over the torture debate need to take a moment and breathe. the guy has barely been in office, give him some time to do this the correct way.
seriously, the response has been amazing...
I don't trust in Obama with blind optimism, but he is a methodial, rational, and practical person...he has all the "al"'s going for him.
a calm, well though out approach always works better in all aspects of politics and life!
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I'm drafting stern letters to all my reps (all Republican, of course), making sure they know we're wise to their hollow counterarguments about "choice," "Katrina" and "socialized medicine."
David Seaton put it well a few days ago. We can't stop pressuring Obama and our representatives on the issues that matter, because the insurance companies certainly haven't stopped!
May 22, 2009 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just to clarify, I was talking about health care.
May 22, 2009 12:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Judy, most times I agree with your posts and do read them. However, I do not agree that torture is not as important as the other pressing issues. These crimes, yes war crimes, were done in our names in the pursuit of making us safe and attack free. I do not and will not ever support these tactics and I would love to exercise my rights and arrest these fuckers for war crimes. These crimes will and have affected our lives and our children's lives as a most horrid stain on our country's morals and values!
May 22, 2009 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree, i do think torture is a highly important issues!
But, I think this issue shifts focus from Health care Reform which i think supersedes most other issues.
Healthcare affects all us, especially children, the elderly, and the poor.
Torture is a crime and should be punished, but for this issue to be the main focus i think is the wrong direction.
Obama is a good man and his heart is in the right place, but i don't think torture is an overnight fix and i truly believe that by rehashing the past we are going to loose focus on the future.
I think that is where Republican's want us to go, because it works for them. Look at all the attention Dick Cheney is receiving, his approval ratings have actually gone up, who would have thought?
May 22, 2009 12:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
At the very least, I guess you could say, there's no reason for anyone to disengage apathetically whenever Democratic politicians do disappointing things. If we truly care, we have to work.
May 22, 2009 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nothing wrong with disagreeing and voicing your concerns, but the focus now is just torture and some folks comparing obama to bush, which i think is unfounded.
May 22, 2009 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's also a lot of focus on the fact that just yesterday, Obama endorsed holding people prisoner indefinitely without trial. For those people, this isn't a side issue.
May 22, 2009 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
neither is healthcare if you don't have it.
neither is inadequate schools and teachers if you don't have it.
millions more are affected.
May 22, 2009 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
We are all affected by indefinite detainment. We are all affected when the President endorses a policy that contradicts our system of justice. If he can't make the right decision now, the precedent is set for a future leader to hold anyone indefinitely and use the lack of evidence as a reason for the detainment.
May 22, 2009 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Outstanding comment!
(Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963)May 22, 2009 7:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
JudyAnn, you are absolutely right.
The war on terror is Republican territory. The 9/11 attacks were a godsend for right wing politicians. They wrote the whole War on Islamofascist Terror script, and ran with it, because it plays into all of the top Republican themes. Everything connected with it is bad news for Obama. By getting lured back onto that ground, Obama is being drawn away from his strongholds. Obama should not be riding out to have this fight, especially not with Dick Cheney! He needs to get back to his strengths, fast.
But on health care and other domestic economic issues, Obama has got to remember to give people something to fight for. Every time he splits the difference between competing power blocs of economic elites, and compromises to come up with some majoritarian middle-ground, poll-supported position, no matter how sensible he might feel that position is, he depletes his reservoir of passionate support. People don't go to political war against the mighty powers that be just to support some generic, processed Washington sausage product, even if they like that sausage product better than some competing sausage product. They don't threaten to defeat their House representative, and follow through on the threat, because of the passionate pragmatism that burns within their breast. They don't stay up to the wee hours of the morning writing letters and blog posts because they have fallen in love with some impenetrable 1000-page piece of Washington policy legalese.
They do these things because they support some big, bright, morally important and intellectually simple idea that is clearly and obviously opposed to some competing idea.
I just got the pitch letter from David Plouffe to join the campaign to pass Barack Obama's health plan. It claims to be recruiting me to participate in some bottom-up process. But from all I can tell, the plan is considered settled, and I am just being recruited to sell it. And the letter doesn't even tell me what I am supposed to be selling.
Can you keep track of the themes? What is the great health care reform battle about now? "Cost-cutting"?
May 22, 2009 5:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I got the same pitch. They want me to send money to support a bill but they won't tell me what's in the bill.
May 22, 2009 6:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you think that if 911 had occurred on a Democratic administration's watch -- say for example the actual person who was elected -- Al Gore, 911 would be a PLUS????
Only the republicans could manage to turn a huge failure of intelligence and vigilance into their very own cause celebre and an excuse for everything they did wrong thereafter.
Only THEY could claim to have "kept America Safe" after clearly not doing that, and NEVER getting a challenging statement.
We truly need to rewrite history so that it is more accurate about just who DID NOT keep America safe.
May 22, 2009 8:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
The themes have been the same since the campaign: reduced costs, guaranteed choice, and universal access to quality care.
Obama's approach differs dramatically from Bill Clinton's, though his objectives are similar. Clinton's Health Care Reform Act was developed in secret and spelled out what he wanted to do in 1,000 agonizingly impenetrable pages. His inability to ram it through Congress and past the health care industry is one of the signature failures of his administration.
Obama used an eight-page document to outline his approach during the campaign, but since he took office he has not been prescriptive on policy. Instead, he has focused on trying to involve all stakeholders -- citizens, Congress, and the industry -- in constructive dialogue. This has been annoying to his opponents, who would prefer to attack a policy rather than propose a solution. It is also unsettling to supporters, particularly to single-payer advocates and others who favor disruptive transformational change. But it also gives him a far better chance to accomplish something meaningful.
Obama recognizes that no plan survives contact with the enemy. He has set a strategic objective and wants the tactics to developed by the boots on the ground. It is an implicit realization that change will be imperfect and incremental, but that concrete measures that reduce cost, preserve choice and assure access are both necessary and achievable.
May 23, 2009 11:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent post. Yes, cost-cutting, i.e., rationalizing care is the grand change we all voted for. Status quo on the Bush/Paulson bailout, the war in Iraq, surging in Afghanistan - huge change has come to America.
Here's a modest proposal - lets dismantle the HMO system that is at the heart of of our health care dysfunction. Go back to the Hill-Burton post-war system we had pre-Nixon that mandated minimum levels of hospital beds by county thruout the country, and add on a dingle-payer system. Cut costs? Cut out the 30% overhead built into the reigning looting mechanism of the insurance industry and replace it with the 2-3% overhead that Medicare manages. You can't cut any significant costs w/o doing that - Obama is just blowing same-old-Washington smoke with his plan.
Credit card reform? That bill is total B.S. How about we re-outlaw usury and cap interest rates? Shut down or severely regulate the usurious check-cashing and payday loan scam?
Instead of throwing free money in the trillions at the pirates who melted down the economy, how bout we put the zombie banks into receivership instead, outlaw their insane derivatives instruments, force them to get by with smaller profits on lending to productive enterprises which build wealth in the real, physical economy?
Put the trillions we are wasting on the banks and the wars into building and maintaining the infrastructure needed to pull us from the brink of a depression that will be worse than the 30's.
Obama does not come close to doing any of these things, all of which are not just desirable, but necessary to prevent a general collapse of our our country. But no, lets not criticize him - he is "Not Bush" after all.
May 23, 2009 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anyone who thinks that health care or jobs is more important than bringing to justice the people who tortured innocent people -- some of them to death -- is morally bankrupt.
May 23, 2009 6:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Care to elaborate on that? Health care reform has a bearing on the lives of millions of people.
May 23, 2009 8:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
No, Dan, I don't. I pity you.
May 23, 2009 11:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Folks aren't getting their unicorns and the problems created over the past eight years, dare I say longer, haven't been undone by the wave of Obama's magic wand. So I fully expect a call to impeach any day now.
May 22, 2009 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I guess the thought of Biden taking over is less scary than Cheny .... hmmmmmm .... maybe your idea to impeach Obama has merit. :-)
Don't you think it's a bit soon though? We haven't even caught McChrystal with his hand in the torture jar yet.
May 22, 2009 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
What does it matter if a hundred or so get killed and thousands are abused by our government? So what if our laws and treaty obligations require we investigate? We don't "really" have to follow the law if it's politically inconvenient. There are more important fish to fry right now.
How many must die and how many must be abused and how many must be detained illegally for years on end for no good reason before it rises to the level of being important enough for you to demand it be stopped, investigated and where necessary prosecuted? After all, we are not talking about jaywalking here. We're discussing criminnal acts of a barbaric character.
If it was, your family member or your friend who was tortured to death or detained for years on end without cause and held virtually incommunicado, I think you might have time for this issue and realize that it too, deserves our focus.
May 22, 2009 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
ok good point.
but how many millions aren't receiving health care coverage?
how many millions can't pay for prescription medicine?
how many millions can't clothe and feed their children?
how many kids are receiving a sub par education?
I understand if it was my family member then I would want them to be helped, that is how i feel about the poor and disconnected that live in urban and rural areas in this country.
I am not saying toruture crimes should not be prosecuted..but to be more of a concern than healthecare, education, I don't think so...
We can focus on torture while the power less who live here in the usa, aren't receiving basic needs...that is a moral concern also.
May 22, 2009 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are two sources of supreme law in our nation: the Constitution (with its Bill of Rights), and our treaties.
While a line can be drawn from the Constitution to universal health care, it is a rather convoluted path that has not yet been mapped by the branches of our government.
The Geneva Conventions, on the other hand, are very clear, and they have been affirmed by our government. Torture violates the supreme law of our nation, and to ignore that law weakens the very documents and principles that we must instead strengthen to get to universal health care.
I thought Obama got that. Now, I'm not so sure. He's still worlds better than his competition in the last election. That's why he got my vote. But he's giving me reason to believe that realpolitik is taking over again. And that's a sad thing to see.
May 22, 2009 11:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
As Obama would say, we have to focus on more than one thing at the same time. It's doable - trying to resolve the torture issue and fighting for health care for all, etc. - these are not mutually exclusive things.
May 22, 2009 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
true, but to bring Obama down to the moral equivalent of Bush is simply wrong and a lot of left wing bloggers, commentators have been doing that. no justification!!!
they have turned on the guy because of the one topic, which in my opinion does not supersede other issues. It is truly amazing to watch!
I was watching Rachel Maddow last night and was truly disappointed!
May 22, 2009 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Judy Ann, try looking at the Constitution.
Half of the Bill of Rights was written to deal with these kind of questions, not health care.
Apparently the Founding Fathers felt that eliminating torture, stopping tyrants from absconding with property, and giving the people the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness all came before noting a right to universal health care. Come to think of it, they didn't even address it.
Go figure. I understand from one wry Senator that the inmates at Gitmo have excellent health services, including free proctology exams which for some reason aren't in high demand. Yet the prisoners keep complaining. Doctors say we don't usually get enough water, and there the prisoners are getting their 8 liters a day. And healthy tropical sun to boot!!! But in any case, certainly those 250 prisoners can wait another year or two for us to solve our economic problems and then turn to their grievances - after all, they've already been there 6-8 years, so one or two more won't hurt. Too much. And the good news is that many of those we're arguing about torture with are already dead, so to paraphrase the words of one wise man, "let's not bicker over who killed who - let's pass health care!!!"
May 23, 2009 3:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Forget about looking at the Constitution if that is too intimidating ..... just review the Oath of Office sworn by the President:
You will notice that only one Presidential responsibility is specifically mentioned, and it ain't "provide universal health care coverage" regardless of how desperately we want such a program.
May 23, 2009 3:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Now I'm taken aback - wasn't the White House Lawn Easter Egg Roll in there somewhere? Being roasted and tossing out zingers at the Correspondents' Dinner? You mean when it comes down to it, all the President really has to do is take care of the Constitution? Hell, I can do that, why didn't I run?
May 23, 2009 3:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps I was unclear as to the message I tried to get across. My intention was to establish some manner of priorities for our president's list of responsibilities. Judy-Ann would have us believe that he is most responsible to be efficient; to not surrender opportunity to pass legislation in favor of anything like a contentious effort in defending the Constitution. I say his Oath of Office shows his primary responsibility to be pretty unambiguous.
May 23, 2009 3:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Okay, got me, I can't multitask worth shit, have to run for dog catcher. Personally I liked it better when Presidents focused on upholding the Constitution, but I've been called a troll before.
May 23, 2009 5:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
I take a middle path:
* I am tired of Obama bashing
* I think torture must be investigated and prosecuted.
FWIW, I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time. The people working on health care are different people than the DOJ/CIA folks involved in the torture investigation. There really is no conflict.
The Obama-bashers are the same freepers who ddn't support him last year. They are mostly just ideologues who love to be leftier-than-thou and go on and on about Mumia and hemp or whatever. It's more a self-centered posture or lifestyle than a genuine desire to create change in our lifetimes.
Witness the lefty blogger's total lack of rebuttal of Cheney. Cheeny and the GOP have been preaching torture for weeks now, yet lefties spend all their time going after Obama, Pelosi and Harman. They give dick "Torqamada" Cheney a big ole pass so they can "purge" for purity's sake.
May 22, 2009 1:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
ps. good post.
May 22, 2009 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
torture is important and should be kept in the forefront, but to compare bush and Cheney to Obama, inexcusable. And I think healthcare affects millions more.
We are focusing now on the issue of torture when other issues such a depleting social security fund, prescription cost, Medicare/Medicaid, uninsured children, nutrition, education…those social issues will affect generations to come
Yes we can walk and chew gum at the same time, but bashing Obama over torture, how quickly we turn
May 22, 2009 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let's be very clear here. It's the people who six months ago were adamant about torture accountability with Bush at the helm who have turned. Not those who are sticking to their principles and demanding the same things of Obama thy demanded (without redress) of Bush.
Obama is a means to an end ... not an end onto himself.
May 22, 2009 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well said.
May 22, 2009 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
You've defined a rigid ideologue, BTW.
May 22, 2009 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
And you, an unquestioning disciple.
Gee isn't this name calling fun!
May 22, 2009 3:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm NOT bashing Obama. Have you read any of my posts??
I just don't think it is either/or. Obama has 3 1/2 years left in his first term. We have plenty of time to do EVERYTHING. If we keep up the momentum and support.
May 22, 2009 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
i know you weren't bashing...we are on the same page.
May 22, 2009 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
So this is scripted?
May 23, 2009 3:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
There is no reason to even mention Cheney in any context other than a criminal proceeding. That said, there have been plenty of rebuttals to every move he makes. Do you read Josh or TPMDc or MuckRaker or DickDay or ThereaP or .....
I generally view a middle path as well: Appreciate the things I like, vocally protest the ones I don't, fight to influence the outcomes that are still in play to achieve the best result ... BTW: have you signed Dean's petition yet? (whoring it every chance I get)
May 22, 2009 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for that! It's exactly the kind of thing I wanted! Done!
May 22, 2009 9:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Cheeny and the GOP have been preaching torture for weeks now, yet lefties spend all their time going after Obama, Pelosi and Harman.
I think this bothers me the most.
That, and the Democratic collapse in the Senate.
May 22, 2009 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. (Hi, CT; I am now calmer than I was a few days ago.)
May 22, 2009 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Were we clashing over something? : )
I think my real worry is that the Obama is no different than Bush meme will simply turn off people who might otherwise have been motivated to call their Senators or write letters to newspapers or whatever about this whole mess.
At the same time, Obama needs to be pressured, too, and Senate Dems need spinal implants. And yet last night, I simply couldn't listen to Rachel Maddow, because I knew that all over cable news, there was nothing but Obama bashing. (And Liz Cheney was on Anderson Cooper). The wingnutnation has commandeered the media, and the progressives are heaping criticism onto the fire. Do we gain more by weakening the President or by pushing more carefully?
I don't know.
May 22, 2009 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
so true, last night i simply could not listen to Rachel Maddow
May 22, 2009 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed on the spinal implants. I've been scratching my head on that one all day (not very good for my scalp).
May 22, 2009 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
The problem isn't Obama. The problem is the Democratic Party. Obama is no worse than the party on any issue but the party is pretty much worthless on about all of them. Last term, I figured they were just spineless. Now, I figure they know exactly what they're doing, i.e., as little as possible. We have two totally establishment, status quo parties. Anybody who thinks it's the left getting in the way of change hasn't been paying attention for about 30 years.
May 22, 2009 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
The last time I personally witnessed this sort of thing was against Hillary Clinton in 1993. It was mean, personal and hateful. This is exactly what is being tried here.
It comes at the end of a long period of crap that has bred mistrust and cynicism.
Does anyone here seriously believe that the evangelicals and fundamentalists weren't "pressuring" Bush and Congress? How did that turn out? The broad spectrum of voters kicked these idiots out and it seems to me we stand a very good chance of going down the same road.
May 22, 2009 6:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Judy Ann,
I tend to agree that prosecution of Bush administration members can take a back seat.
However, I can't just ignore Obama's announced support for preventive detention - the idea that we can lock people up indefinitely not for what they did, but for what they might do in the future. If he does what he said he would yesterday - set up a "legal regime" for this to be done - than to me that is every bit as important an issue as education and health care. He or any subsequent president could lock people up indefinitely without any evidence of a crime being committed. And even though we're talking about foreign combatants now, how long would it take for that to be applied to US citizens?
This is a huge deal, and we need to oppose it even as we support the president on domestic issues. Basic freedoms are as important as any of the issues you cite.
May 22, 2009 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you disagree with the prisoner of war concept?
May 22, 2009 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Unload your question and ask again.
May 22, 2009 3:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
In what regard, Charlie?
If you mean the concept that we can declare people suspected of membership in a multinational criminal organization are POWs and keep them on ice until "terror" is defeated rather than try them for their alleged crimes, I strongly disagree.
May 22, 2009 3:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do all Gitmo detainees fall into your definition? How do you know this? Obama has outlined five classes of detainees--and it seems some of those classes include folks quite happy at insisting they are terrorists and are quite willing to kill Americans in any way, shape, or form. Is there a compelling reason to say so categorically that these folks are not telling the truth?
See, I don't know this--but neither do you. I am willing to have individual detainee hearings to determine their danger.
And I am willing to see them given the equivalent to prisoner of war status....and I don't think all of you really understand that concept. The Bush crowd certainly didn't.
May 22, 2009 6:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't worry, he'll fuck up health care and social security and the economy too, then it'll be okay to complain since those are real issues unlike torture. Okie dokie?
May 22, 2009 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
who said torture isn't a real issue...don't take my statement out of context...that is being unfair!
what has always been the top issues for Americans throughout the decades? now we have a real chance at health care reform...that affects the majority of us.
We are going to spend months arguing over torture and not focus... torture and Guantanamo is all you herar on the news and political gossip shows..it is important but it distracts...
i tend to disagree with a lot of my liberal friends, in regards to torture being issue number one. so we don't focus on the economy, health care, climate change, education...then we loose ground in terms of social change and loose the next election.
bringing a good man down...
the republicans are loving this, internal democrat disagreements, which breaks apart our unity.
we all have the same stance that torture is wrong...give the president some room to correct this injustice...it can not all be done at the same time..he has to take steps!
May 22, 2009 4:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
This isn't the number one issue for me but it's part of a pattern that began with the FISA cave well before the election.
And I hate to agree with David Brooks but I think he's on target. Obama is pretty much adopting the same foreign policy that Bush moved to in his second term. That's a winner with the Blue Dogs who seem to be winning everything. Wait till they ruin healthcare.
May 22, 2009 6:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
More rightwing meme spreading.
First we must believe the GOP/CIA in their leaks against Pelosi and Harman.
Then we have to listen to Cheney that "Obama reserves the right ..."
Now you are quoting Brooks.
You sound like a GOP . You'd fit right in.
May 22, 2009 10:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are hilarious! Read the thread header. Now, THAT is right wing meme spreading. They have you exactly, precisely, entirely where they want you. You are selling THEIR policies and you are blaming the left. You are totally brainwashed and controlled.
May 23, 2009 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Look, JudyAnn, you come out firing: "I understand the concern of torture but to be honest, health care reform, social security, the economy specifically the job market are a 100 times more important at the moment". Excuse me for saying torture's not a real issue. It's just a real issue that's 100 times less important than our pocket books, a sure fire ruse to get Americans to ignore any real but non-economically important issue.
"Bringing a good man down"? Let him show he's a good man first. We have to take steps? Like what? Obama declared an end to tribunals and then started them up again. Said he'd close down Gitmo and now says it's back on again (plus will expand Baghram prison too). These aren't baby steps - this is the Harlem shuffle.
I was under the mistaken impression that reversing torture would be one of those simple 1st-three-hours executive signings, especially coming from the brave man who spoke against Iraq when all were lined up for it. A noun, a verb, a speech in Illinois.
The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
May 23, 2009 3:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Judy -- It appears that you give a higher priority to health care reform than to issues involving the law, such as the enforcement of laws prohibiting torture. However, that reflects a value judgment on your part. It also appears to reflect a belief that meaningful health care reform is possible and that the large insurers won't figure out a way to stop it.
Others may make different value judgments or act out of a belief that meaningful health care reform isn't likely to happen this time around, either. Also, a lot depends on how you frame the discussion. If you frame the issue as health care reform versus torture, then of course I would have to agree that problems with our current health care system have a direct effect on a lot more people than torture. However, if you frame the issue as health care reform versus allowing the government to get away with violations of basic rights, then it is likely that far more people in the United States would be impacted by allowing government to violate their rights.
Personally, I'm too cynical to think that it is likely to make much difference which of these or a myriad of other issues gets your or my priority. Obama has his own agenda, and I assume that he will try to carry it out as best he can.
May 22, 2009 6:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed on all points. I'm not sure why we can't disagree on how things are going.
The sense I get is that there are a number of people here who are sufficiently satisfied with their personal pre-inaugural understanding of Obama that any criticism of his actions seems caustic and painful to them.
I've never "bashed" Obama and haven't seen more than, say, three or four liberal posters do it. But to hear it from some folks here, calling into question Obama's decision, say, to detain prisoners of wars indefinitely, is not "bashing" him. It's being a conscious citizen.
May 22, 2009 7:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
No one is a bigger advocate than I am for Single-Payer Universal Health Care. I happen to believe that our President and Congress are capable of focusing on more things than one.
I always rebel when I am given a list of 10 things, (usually, with at least 8 that I think are highly important) and I am asked to pick the ONE thing that matters most. I am a grown-up, and I can have more than one priority, thank you very much. There are too many issues that combine to make the other issues confronting us "less important." They are all important, and Congress is structured with committees to deal with more than one issue at a time.
I hope we will never be like those who got into a snit about Notre Dame, who could only think about abortion, claiming that having Barack Obama speak was a blight on the Catholic Church -- the same week that the report came out about the very same Church covering up abuse, rape, humiliation and worse that went on in Ireland for decades. If we only focus on one thing, we can let other crimes go because they are "less important?" I don't think so.
May 22, 2009 8:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think everyone who is being highly critical of Obama, saying, "we need to exert pressure on him so he'll have to do what we want," as if some loyal dog--are ridiculous and obtuse.
(If they get mad, I am probably hitting close to the target.)
Who are you waiting for???? A perfect human being? My God.
I hate to be so confrontational, but it irks me to no end when people are impatient and unreasonable with a patient and reasonable person.
Obama is a patient and reasonable person. The people angry at him are not.
May 22, 2009 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think this is just the way politics in America works Joe Wood. You have to put constant pressure on politicians to follow the path you prefer, because you can be damn sure your adversaries are doing the same thing. There is a constant struggle for the heart, mind, loyalty and political attention of the politicians, and if you don't push hard for your own side, you lose.
Do you think the vast armies of health care interests groups and stakeholders, all those folks with a vested interest in preventing change, are spending their days being patient and reasonable? I suspect not. I think they are throwing everything they can at Obama, and are bringing to bear every bit of power they possess.
It doesn't matter how patient and reasonable Obama is. He's a politician. He wants to maintain his popularity, hold his governing coalition together and get re-elected. If he faces an endless barrage of political threats and incoming from the defenders of the status quo, while those on the other side just sit patiently and trust him to do the right thing, he will minimize his losses and succumb to the barrage, like any sensible politician. It is only if he perceives that there is a great cost to be incurred by disappointing the other side too that he will be forced to balance the competing interests.
And just as with health care, so with the debates over foreign policy and national security policy. Obama faces unrelenting pressure from the defenders of the status quo: those who are emotionally or economically invested in the War of Terror industry; or on the various costly projects being carried out by the US military military; or are feeding at the US trough; or wish to preserve the current arrangements in the Middle East. Barack Obama is not going to take on all of these major established powers and defeat them single-handedly, just because he's a reasonable guy.
May 22, 2009 10:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good point. I hadn't heard it put in those terms.
Thanks Dan.
May 22, 2009 11:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
No sweat :)
May 23, 2009 12:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah Dan you make a decent point. Point is there's a difference between consrtuctive criticism of Obama which helps pushes things and hold his feet to the fire not to mention Obama says he would welcome that and there's the constant whining that's been going on here for days, that's not constructive criticism.
There's nothing wrong with criticism when it's duly noted and you present it in a well mannered and well written approach, not criticism that's filled with hate and curse words, that's not acceptable. As Obama supporter I have criticized him on issues such as the stimulus and defense and feel go doing it. He wouldn't of wanted it any other way.
But yeah, good point Dan. Duly noted.
May 23, 2009 12:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure what a concern about torture has to do with anger at Obama.
I'm for the Rule of Law. Without that, your healthcare would not be enforceable!
The issue of torture has to do with abrogation of the Rule of Law. Covering people with good medical care also has to do with enforcing the Rule of Law and extending justice and equality to everyone.
Equality and Justice. They both relate to torture. And to healthcare.
I've written over and over about healthcare. But I've been beating the drum to draw attention to torture because it's a topic that not everyone is ok writing about. (And there are plenty of blogs on healthcare all the time.) I defy you to find any of my blogs on torture that were written to attack Obama. (that's nonsense!)
I really don't see where your "connection" between the two is coming from. But oh, well...
May 22, 2009 9:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are onto to something there. I say read the thread header. Where is that kind of spin really coming from anyway? Who is really trying to neutralize all left of center, i.e., change, policies? Blue Dogs and Republicans I expect. I bash Blue Dogs and I have been doing that since this board started but my criticism of Obama is just for going along to get along with them. They appear to have pretty much captured him and he may not care, but I do.
This isn't about Obama. It's about whether any significant change is possible in a country controlled by two status quo parties plus a faction of right-wing extremists.
May 23, 2009 10:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
"I'm not sure what a concern about torture has to do with anger at Obama."
To be honest Thera and if Judy want to reply to your comment to clearify she rightfully can. But I think she's talking about the exaggering criticism of Obama as a whole. But that's just my educated guess on reading her post.
Believe me Thera, i've been coming here for about a year and have read or skimmed through most of your postings and i've yet to see a post dedicated to attacking Obama on torture.
Oh BTW Judy, good post. Hit it on the mark and for that it will be recommended.
May 22, 2009 10:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Two points: What if it was rape instead of 'torture?' Would you be so easy to let it go? I doubt it. A heinous crime is a heinous crime.
Second: You're right, we should also be upset he isn't considering single payer health care.
May 23, 2009 12:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
There are many good posts by fellow Progressives about the issue of Torture and War Crimes and I want to only add two points:
1) It is MUCH easier to STOP something than to START, especially when it is a crime. Eg. If I'm pummeling someone senseless, it isn't DIFFICULT for me to STOP the pummeling. It isn't difficult for Obama to disband the torture team at Gitmo. It isn't difficult for Obama to halt the illegal rendition programs. OTH, it takes time to work out a Healthcare plan, and both Healthcare and Torture are handled by two completely separate entities and one doesn't have to occur at the expense of the other. That is a strawman. If you are not satisfied with the progress of Healthcare, then do go out and submit your demands to the right channels. Demanding that those who are petitioning to STOP the crime of Torture to let Obama continue Bush-era abuses will NOT make Healthcare progress faster.
2)I'm also sick of being bashed relentlessly by the likes of Answerfrog, KateO, etc., for being "anti-Obama". I'm "anti-Torture", "anti-Government secrecy", "anti-FISA", "anti-War", anti-TARP", "anti-Debt", can you SEE the difference?? I was incensed about these issues under Bush, and my money and support for Obama was predicated on his PROMISE to at least demonstrate some backbone to halt or roll-back these Bush-era policies. Instead, Obama is rolling back on *his promises*, not on these abuses.
In the end, these positions *are* pro-America, pro-Law, pro-Geneva Conventions, pro-Taxpayers.
It is extremely disappointing to see the "bashing" of people like me simply because we want to hold Obama accountable.
May 23, 2009 1:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Freedom of speech is part of the Rule of Law.
May 23, 2009 4:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
bluebell & TheraP, absolutely true, and appreciate so much TheraP's comprehensive blogs on Torture, to which I can't find finer words to add, except rec's. You might be interested in some pretty conclusive evidence that Torture was indeed used to extract "information" that sold Americans on the Iraqi invasion. Ray Mcgovern, ex CIA, described how Colin Powell was blindsided here:
http://www.counterpunch.org/mcgovern05192009.html
The biggest irony is that Iraq is a murderous quagmire that not only took hundreds of thousands of lives, it drained the country of wealth and resources (at least 3 trillion and counting..) that could have been put to better use, eg. pay down the debt, set up Universal Healthcare.
I am too embroiled in my own emotional views about state sanctioned murder and torture, and I try to see objectively where others like JudyAnn might come from, and even then, the evil obviously "blows back".
It isn't just the immorality of breaking "foreigners", which perhaps "understandably" doesn't quite grab most Americans' imagination, but the objective of Torture is to bring about nefarious ends in the home country, justifying a disastrous, illegal invasion based on falsehoods and fear, hurting American interest in a manner beyond even Vietnam.
May 23, 2009 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
anti-Blue Dog?
May 23, 2009 10:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nothing at all against the color blue...:)..
May 23, 2009 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very honestly, I read the first few paragraphs here and thought this was a snark; that you were being facetious.
Upon reading further, it is troubling to realize you actually believe we are best served to gloss over any resolution of the torture issue and - by reference - any other human rights issues left over from the previous Administration.
I cannot disagree more completely, and there is much I said in an earlier blog post to make that case.
For now, however, I think I will let a more informed expert weigh in on this conversation:
Or how about this, which I offer on this Memorial Day weekend?:
Yes, I voted and supported Barack Obama for election to the Presidency. But I cannot now lay at his feet my liberties or trust him with powers which enable him to subvert out institutions. It is our responsibility as patriots to stand firmly in defense of our Republic, regardless of what political party is sponsoring the threat. John Stuart Mills, Dwight Eisenhower and the rest of that patriots in our past would settle for nothing less.
May 23, 2009 1:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
SleepinJeezus, great post and fantastic blog, that sums up so eloquently what I failed to express due to the emotional anguish. I cannot believe that Afghanistan civilian killing has been escalated since Obama. Whereas a death toll of some 95 children would have provoked cries of criminal negligence in the past under Bush, it only elicited mute protests because it is "collateral damage" under Obama's orders. I also cannot fathom that the lives of innocent foreigners cannot even measure up to the issue of well-being of Americans, or that stopping war crimes is an opportunity cost for Healthcare.
May 23, 2009 1:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
I also want to add that in the end, TPM is quite an eye-opener into what constitutes the mantle of fellow Dems. Of course the highest echelons of the DLC sign onto Bush policies - their constituents do not care enough about violations of Law, illegal wars, EIT, government secrecy, kidnapping and torture, but domestic issues, just the "fanatical Left" like the ACLU who are accused of obstructing Obama, while the other side, the MIC, the Neo-Cons and Wall St., has the bully pulpit all to themselves.
There is a failure of imagination to discern that the money shoveled to TARP and the wars means an escalation of National Debt, and ultimately, that could defeat the Healthcare, Education and other initiatives because of the untenability of sustaining so much Debt. Now that is a GENUINE opportunity cost that has been lacking in this debate.
May 23, 2009 1:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
All very excellent comments - unfortunately!
Watching Dick Cheney speaking recently, I am amazed at how remarkably cowardly he actually is. There is no amount of murder, mayhem, torture, infanticide, etc., that he would disallow if it were undertaken to hopefully protect himself from the bogey man. The fact that he promotes such a degree of cowardice with such practiced bravado as we saw at the AEI speech is so mind-numbingly Orwellian as to view him as a clown character from some faustian cartoon.
The irony in the fact that he would embrace terror in pursuit of terrorists seems to escape the mainstream media and his other apologists. And so they continue presenting opportunity for Cheney to present "His side" of the reality of the criminal enterprise that was Bush/Cheney. I say we should place him in the docket at trial instead, and let Justice be exercised at last.
May 23, 2009 2:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for your great rebuttal, Sleepin! I too could not at first believe the blog. It's point isn't even logical!
May 23, 2009 4:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, that was terrific.
May 23, 2009 10:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Take a look:
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
May 23, 2009 2:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
China has done very well in declaring that Human Rights falls behind achieving prosperity. Somewhere down the road, they assure their citizens, the road to communist capitalism can pause long enough to address any imperfections.
In 1984, strong security means were constantly needed to maintain solidarity in the face of war with East Asia... I mean Oceania... I mean East Asia... I mean....
It's really disturbing that torture has become so accepted in our mindsets and so distant from our journalistic lexicon. Orwell would be proud/horrified at our groupspeak, how we can wash away the stain and horror with a few glib rephrasings. "Enhanced" meaning "frequently fatal". Oh my. Of course electrocution and electroshock are typically considered horrible, but "tasering" sounds like an arcade or field game up there with paintball and laser tag. Can't imagine someone would die from this. Except 100 or more have.
Here, let's try this one for the next Administration: "I'm sorry, but we can't pause to address cannibalism at this point, because we have to deal with severe budget shortfalls for Medicare and Prescription Drug Benefits, which affect many more people."
And I keep having so much fun with the ever moving goal line - Obama's only been in office 4 months, so it's still not fair to criticize him. 1 year will be too soon, mid-terms will be too soon, the end of only his first term will be too soon, the end of his 2nd term will be too early to judge. I'm waiting for one gutsy person to say, "Hey, I'll wait until this date X to judge, and if he hasn't gotten it together by then, I'll be first in line with his critics".
May 23, 2009 4:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
“History is going to have to judge,’’ Bush said.
May 23, 2009 5:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Along with "Mission to Mars", "Mission Accomplished" and "Balanced Budget by 2009". Yep, it was a great ride while it lasted. "Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters" I think someone else said.
May 23, 2009 5:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's really disturbing that torture has become so accepted in our mindsets
--------------------------------------------------
That really disturbs me too. My father was a conservative democrat, Reagan democrat. Back when I was a teenager and we were arguing about the Vietnam war he told me, "We're different than them. They are torturing American pows. We don't torture."
Well that wasn't quite true but it does say something about a mind set that even moderate conservatives had 35 years ago. When did that change, 9-11?
May 23, 2009 6:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
I encourage readers to criticize Obama when he does something we disagree with. The author is angry that her hero is not being praised 24/7.
May 23, 2009 7:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think you say it well. The author is saddened by the Left's Obama bashing...I would be saddened and in despair if after eight long, dark years outraged and distressed over the direction a President took this country if we were not willing to speak out strongly when the President we worked to elect to remedy these great problems followed many yes, not all, but too many) of the same odious policies. Judy Ann and the others who find an excuse for or prefer to defend or let pass every one of the backtracking, Bush-Cheney-channeling policies that Obama adopts on torture, on Guantanamo, on military tribunals, on FISA, on the bailout for billionaire bankers, should ask themselves if the reason they were outraged by Bush-Cheney was their policies or something else. (There was a lot to choose from here). If it was their policies and their actions, then minimal political integrity will require them to speak out against similar policies by Obama.
May 23, 2009 9:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Amen. Well said!
May 23, 2009 9:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Our system of government is "of, by, and for the people" - not "of, by and for the president".
The president takes an oath to the Constitution. We the People, who elected the man, are not his servants. He is ours!
May 23, 2009 9:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
I can't speak for the president, but I'm pretty sure he'd agree with you.
May 23, 2009 11:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why do you reserve the right to criticize Obama, yet blow off someone who dares to push back against that criticism? Is that the type of debate you prefer to have? A room full of people who think the same way as you do all the time? That's no way to challenge your mind. How do you stay open to ideas if you only prefer to hear from like minded people?
Remember Obama's Notre Dame speech where he talked about reducing someone to a caricature? Why do you reduce JudyAnn to a hero worshipper when she is one of the few people here who don't expect miracles and perfection from him. Why is anyone who pushes back on what they believe to be unfair criticism accused of following him blindly?
There are some who truly provide constructive criticism, but the loudest ones in the room are the ones that have been saying things like, "he's just like Bush", "he betrayed us" , "he's spineless", "he's not really a Lib/Progressive", etc. Basically things that no mature person should be saying while providing constructive criticism. If you are not guilty of this then don't complain, but don't deny that this doesn't happen at TPM.
Criticize all you want, but do so with several facts in mind: YOU are not the POTUS, YOU do not bear his responsibilities, YOU do not have all the facts, YOU can be wrong, Obama does not have absolute rule, he has to work with politicians, he is a politician not a crusader, he will compromise, he will fail sometimes, he's up against the establishment which does not concede power easily, he's not going to share all of his plans with you or the media, if you think he doesn't know - he knows, the rest of America does not have the same priorities as the Left even though you think they should, you do not have to answer to 300 million people if your ideas fail,
You must recognize what he has done right - otherwise your criticisms will never be taken seriously. You will be caricatured as an Obama-Hater, like Sean Hannity. You are not smarter than he is, and you are not automatically being objective because you disagree. Also, Obama is your best chance right now at accomplishing the Lib/Progressive agenda. You don't think so? who else you got that could win? And how long before that person betrays you too?
And one more thing: IT'S BEEN FIVE MONTHS - it is way too early to say he's just like Bush or that even his policies are just like Bush's. It is also way too early to declare he is no FDR (someone at TPM made that comment) as it is too early to say he will be - most presidents have to be dead or extremely old before they are honored with such a title.
It is a personal pet peeve of mine when those who are consistently on point are wholly discarded because of a couple of failures or disappointments. This is what's happening on the Left and it's disgusting.
This post is not directly aimed ONLY at Truthseeker. If you are offended by what I said then I'm talking to you.
May 23, 2009 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's a possible position for people
1. Oppose his stance on torture, indefinite detentions, War Crimes
2. Support health care reform
Golly that was hard...
walk...chew...walk...chew....
May 23, 2009 9:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
Amend 2. to Support universal health care.
I fear the fix is totally in on "reform".
May 23, 2009 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
As Andrew Sullivan says Obama is a conservative president.
The 'left wing' want comprehensive single payer health care but that is not what the Obama administration wants.
The environmentalists want an end to mountain top removal; the Obama adminstration has approved it.
Obama is 100 times better than Bush but he is a conservative president.
Jon Stewart showed at least 6 lines in Obama's speech on National Security that were almost identical to lines from Bush.
May 23, 2009 11:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think 4-5 months of rule is way too early for Andrew Sullivan to make such a conclusion.
And I love Jon Stewart and he is one of the few people who can tell a good joke about Obama, but six lines picked from a speech does not make him like Bush. If I had put that as evidence in term paper - I'd get an F. Besides, you could find similarities between Obama and Hitler or the Anti-Christ (many people did during the campaign) but it doesn't make it the same. Did you see the clip where one of the cast tried to prove that Obama was Heathcliff Huxtable?
May 23, 2009 1:21 PM | Reply | Permalink