"May Posterity Forget That Ye Were Our Countrymen"
Posted below are a few indications of where the founders and other wise ancestors would be aligned in the question about pursuing Justice for alleged perpetrators of crimes against humanity and violations of our Bill of Rights. It is difficult to imagine expedience or harmony driving their decision, but rather a requirement that we proceed with all diligence in defense of our Liberty itself.
"A people may prefer a free government, but if, from indolence, or carelessness, or cowardice, or want of public spirit, they are unequal to the exertions necessary for preserving it; if they will not fight for it when it is directly attacked; if they can be deluded by the artifices used to cheat them out of it; if by momentary discouragement, or temporary panic, or a fit of enthusiasm for an individual, they can be induced to lay their liberties at the feet even of a great man, or trust him with powers which enable him to subvert their institutions; in all these cases they are more or less unfit for liberty: and though it may be for their good to have had it even for a short time, they are unlikely long to enjoy it." -- John Stuart Mill, Representative Government, 1861
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." -- Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight D. Eisenhower, First Inaugural Address, Jan. 20, 1953
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams
I missed this Sleepin' during one of my naps or you started working on this and then published later.
Yes, this is a good post. What grabs me lately is the fact that IKE starts looking better and better to me as time goes on. People push his latent racism but
He never attempted to undo the second Emancipation Proclamation of HST, desegregating the Military.
He went down to Little Rock, gave a speech:
DO YOU KNOW HOW BAD YOU MAKE US LOOK TO OTHER COUNTRIES? Directed this to the segregationists down there.
He had no intent to undo FDR's programs either and the highway system was his legacy. I really feel his name, alone, stopped the Korean Conflict.
And Malcom Moos was our President for awhile at the U. Actually picked me up as I hitch hiked to school one day. He wrote the Military Industrial Complex speech.
And after somebody like w, and Nixon, and Reagan, Ike looks even better.
These quotes are priceless Sleepin which is why you posted them, of course.
Good short speech from the New Prez today, anti lobby and pro Freedom of Information Act. New openess in Government, directive to ALL his agencies.
Oh well. Good good post.
January 21, 2009 9:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, DD. As regards Ike, perhaps our reference point kinda' skews things in his favor. After eight years of what feels like an occupation, any President looks pretty good compared to what we have suffered.
I join with TheraP in insisting that we be diligent in pursuit of justice following the Bush debacle. And of all the quotes, I think Samuel Adams' words (used in the title) should be enough to give anyone pause who would call themself a patriot while considering how far they might comfortably pursue justice in defense of Liberty before the effort becomes too costly.
January 21, 2009 10:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not to take your time but I read some of the fight in Therap's post. We need to investigate.
Its probable cause for a Grand Jury and some Grand Juries go on for years.
That is one tool. Congressional Committees are going to do their work and people are going to crumble. I mean did you see Gonzo a short while ago actually point his finger at Yoo?
I noted fear in WSJ and wrote about it, there is fear in the air. They can call justice vengeance, who gives a shit?
Standing up and making nothing out of Clinton's husband's charity work? Give me a break.
Mark my words. They are already threatening Hode and it aint gonna work. All these new DA's that will be coming to work soon. Any one of them can investigate and charge. There certainly are enough defendants out there.
Ah you know all this stuff. I am just venting.
January 21, 2009 10:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Venting? I know about venting!
It is so incredible to me that anyone could entertain a thought of just letting it go. We do not have that luxury. We definitely need to investigate, and prosecute the wrongdoers appropriately. There is simply no other choice that preserves and protects our Constitution while placing us in compliance with international treaties such as the Geneva Conventions.
January 21, 2009 10:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Chickens take vents a little personally. Just sayin'.
January 21, 2009 10:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
And jet engines take chickens kinda' personal, or so I'm told.
January 21, 2009 10:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
GEESE! Canadian GEESE!!!
(looks around for Quinn)
I am an all-American chicken. Honest! Rhode Island Red.
January 21, 2009 10:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know chickens never fly that high! You are a chicken of the earth. Not the sky!
January 21, 2009 10:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rhode Island Red? I was about to say "Now, THEM's good eating!" but I stopped myself on account of present company and all.
I'd tell ya to keep smilin', but I'm guessing it's kinda hard to smile when all you gots is a beak that's kinda fixed into position and all, eh?
January 21, 2009 11:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
True about most chickens, SJ, but this one, if you look very closely, has a built-in smile. It's why Bwak can't be shown at Chicken Shows....doesn't quite match the breed's trademarks.
January 21, 2009 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
And a nice smile it is! I kin see it from here, and it's definitely different from the peckers on display at the Chicken Shack.
January 21, 2009 11:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not a luxury. It's the law. And it's a moral duty. Once I recognized it was mandated by law, I could see the moral duty involved here. That's galvanized me!
January 21, 2009 10:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lovely post, SJ! And sorry it took me so long to get to it. The blood has been boiling at my own!
Peace and solidarity!
January 21, 2009 10:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't ferget ol George Washington SJ.
BTW, Post more, K?
January 21, 2009 10:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin
How perfect is that? That right there sums up why I feel Bush and Cheney cannot be let off. I don't want to burden Obama with such a task but I feel it is our DOJ's duty to look back on the last eight years and determine whether or not we veered too far away from our country's fundamental founding beliefs. I sure as hell think we did, and I want to ensure we never do it again.
Thanks, SJ, for your post.
January 21, 2009 10:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great comment, LisB!
January 21, 2009 10:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, LisB.
I actually prefer the quote from Sam Adams that i used in the title: "Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
He was one cocky sumbitch, and I don't think he'd give a rat's ass about the political considerations involved. But ask him how far we should go in defense of Liberty, and I can pretty well tell you what the answer would be.
January 21, 2009 11:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not to prosecute prevents people from understanding just what it was they were doing wrong all this time and how to get it right.
It has occurred to me that over time different generations emerge onto the scene. I'm forty something and know very little about the twenty somethings, but they missed having much consciousness of Reagan. They may actually believe he was a decent President, as seen on TV.
These younger generations also missed the time when unions were strong. Today all we hear about is the down side of organized labor. I'm not saying unions are without fault, but I want a voice in my company and an advocate to prevent abusive practices, because managers tend to be bullies. There is little recourse when they make unfair decisions effecting people's lives based on their own whims. Better to have them be required to deal with people in the open.
Got a little off topic there. Crimes must be identified and dealt with fairly. Not to deal with them is an injustice all by itself. Let them make their case, even let them go free, but do not permit that until they prove otherwise because IMHO there is enough already to bring them to trial. Besides, the MSM needs something scandalous to discuss rather then making sh*t up about BHO.
January 22, 2009 1:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Good points all! Worth wandering a bit...
January 22, 2009 11:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Very well said. The spectre of no prosecutions creates some really unhealthy dynamics for the country.
For example, it allows for Ollie North to be somewhat established as an heroic character when the facts of the Iran/Contra scandal show him to be the exact literal opposite. After all, what is treason if it isn't selling weapons to the enemy (Iran) in the immediate post-Iran-hostage era?
Yes, I think we really need to understand the precedents that can be established by our failure to act.
Thank you for your comments.
January 22, 2009 11:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
If you honestly believe prosecutions of officers of the Bush administration will actually place under the direction of the present administration, you're not just dreaming, you're hallucinating.
As far as the way the world views this country, as one who has to travel hither and yon on this flying clod to make a living, I promise you negative opinion of the US is limited to liberal media talking heads on TV 'here' and democrat party talking points.
The world looks at the outcome of the last election as a single step toward a 'banana republic' status for us. If any administration initiates criminal prosecutions against an outgoing administration, it is regarded by the world, and here, as bona fide banana republic status.
There are too many paleface handlers in this administration to allow sacrifice of our fiat currency's benchmark status. Many other unacceptable and irreparable damages to our world standing would occur should any investigations result in trials.
The only payoff to the administration would be the satisfaction of vengeance lust of the Marxist lunatic fringe as witnessed embodied in this thread above. You will be ignored. Mark my word.
January 22, 2009 10:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
While I agree that Bush and Cheney - and many others should be prosecuted - you're deluding yourselves if you think it's going to happen. Obama is giving you a hand-job, once again, and you love it. Obama is cut from exactly the same cloth as Bush - they have the same masters - but your heads are so far up your asses, that you BELIEVE the mainstream media and your liberal websites are telling the truth. Watch "The Obama Deception" if you dare...
READ a book for a change - how about Carroll Quigley's book "Tragedy and Hope" - Quigley was Clinton's mentor. In the book, he states: (sic) that "..the goal is to dominate both political parties so that at any time, the voters can "throw the rat out" and we can easily replace them with another one of our own who will then continue the same policy..." That's why Obama hasn't made good on any of his significant "campaign promises" - and never will.
Just for the record, I think Bush was just as much a criminal as Obama - as was Clinton, and Bush Senior. Read Larry Sinclair's book about his experiences with the Obamanation - once again - if you dare.
I don't want to see MY country (the one I fought and bled for) go back to what it was - corrupt, imperialistic, greedy, consumeristic society - but the direction we're going is just more of the same - actually, it's going to be far worse - and you 'tards can't even see that. The country is poised for Civil War - and it won't have a damn thing to do with having a Mulato Indonesian president - it's going to be a war between those who love slavery (you) and those who love freedom - i.e. those who remember that this country was founded on personal liberty, personal responsibility, and a small, impotent government - ALL concepts that people like you find abhorent.
Here's your first clue: Liberal government is NOT about freedom, or peace, or goodness - it's about TOTAL CONTROL of a population. Make the people dependent on the government, and you can control them, suppress them, dominate them. Just look at the segments of society that have lived on handouts for generations - THAT is the product of your "Liberal" government... but you're too blind to see that, aren't you?
And PLEASE stop quoting the Founding Fathers - it makes me ill. It's like listening to child-molesters talk about protecting children. You obviously have NO idea what the Founding Fathers were working for, nor what their words mean. You make snide remarks about how "unscrupulous" they were - yet look right past the fact that the man you voted for president just hasn't found it necessary to prove he's qualified for the job. Obama is so far outclassed by men like Thomas Jefferson it's pathetic. I can assure you that YOUR mindset is so far removed from that of the Founding Fathers that you may as well be on different planets. YOU are the people who prefer slavery. YOU are the people who are willing to give up Liberty for phantom Security. YOU are the people who are clapping as the United States is completely taken over by a Marxist/Fascist. YOU are the weak and the timid. YOU are NOT Patriots - you are NATIONALISTS - and you are about to get your wish - but it may not turn out quite like you think. You are what Yuri Bezmenov calls "useful idiots" - the people who through mind-bending ignorance and blind zealotry push a country into Communism.
There is the possibility that a few of you might wake up - but then again - monkeys may fly out of my butt. I look forward to your agenda being accelerated - it makes it much easier for people like me to wake up the "fence sitters" as to what's acutally happening - and get them ready for the coming storm....
October 3, 2009 10:53 AM | Reply | Permalink