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Health Care Reform and single payer – an Australian perspective


I write a financial blog which is republished on the largely political Talking Points Memo.  I thought I better write something for both my audiences sometime – so I am jotting down my thoughts – from an Australian perspective – on single-payer health care reform.  After all the ongoing Fannie and Freddie series has a limited audience.  

Warning – I am putting the positives of the Australian system up front.  There are some very substantial losers too – those are discussed at the end of the post.

Much of what I write is a 12 year old perspective (and the data I have in my head is that age) because 12 years ago I worked at the Australian Treasury and followed the numbers more closely.  Moreover I am normally a bank analyst – and am stepping (way) out of my area of expertise.  There are bound to be some errors and the lack of (recent) quantification I would not normally tolerate.  With that caveat – here goes.

Australia has a hybrid private-socialised medical system.

For reference I think the Australian system is superior to anything in Canada or the USA. I am less familiar with the European models. The Australian system is better thought through and will work better than anything Obama is proposing. However Australia had weaker incumbents than America, some advantages over America (which I will get to) and has had 20 years tweaking the system in lots of ways to make it work better.  These systems require a lot of tweaking and if Obama implements something worthwhile the next twenty years will be spent reforming it.

The way I think about it is that the US has a fundamentally broken market system. We know it is fundamentally broken because it costs a lot and produces fairly poor outcomes in aggregate.  Stories about failure of insurance companies to honour their promises are legion.  Many people have conditions that make them uninsurable. America spends a greater proportion of GDP on health (and greater dollars) for worse outcomes almost no matter how you measure it. If you do not agree with that statement you simply refuse to acknowledge clear facts on the ground. Health coverage is one of the major issues for middle America and many are unsatisfied.  By contrast political and general population satisfaction with the Australian system is high and has by-and-large been rising.

Australia has a system whereby primary medical care (general practice doctors), much specialist health care (for example a cardiologist) and almost all important pharmaceuticals are covered by the government but with a copayment by patient. Most the copayments are large enough to be annoying (the service is not free) but do not cover anything like the costs. The copayments differ sometimes due to your income status. For instance most people have a copayment for pharmaceuticals of about $20 – but for (low income) pensioners the copayment is $5.

There are also government run public hospitals – run by State Governments – but where the funding almost entirely ultimately comes from the Federal Government through transfer payments to the States. These hospitals have a public emergency room which rations via triage. [Turn up with a sprained ankle and you might wait twelve hours, turn up with chest pains and the waters part for you.]

After admission to the public hospital [either through a consulting specialist or through the emergency room] you will get a shared ward and no doctor of your own choice – but a very high standard of care by global standards. Non-urgent procedures are queue rationed – and the queue is long and annoying and was once the main issue at State Elections. But the treatments eventually happen. Queue rationed conditions can involve some pain and hence there is real annoyance at the queues. [Gall stone removal for instance is queue rationed. They are painful until removed.] 

You can be admitted to a private hospital in the same way as the public hospital. The admission is either from a consulting specialist or through the emergency room at the public hospital.  At a private hospital you have your choice of doctor, often a private room, sometimes slightly better food and distinctly less pressure to leave until you are recuperated. Most importantly, private hospitals are not highly queue rationed.  When my wife needed knee surgery after a skiing accident the wait was two weeks at a public hospital or alternatively the next day the doctor was in surgery at the private hospital.  That was an easy choice.

To go to a private hospital you will either need to pay for it or have private health insurance. Most people do it with private health insurance with a moderately large copayment. [It costs me $800 to go to a private hospital – as a one-off payment – and there might be additional copayments for particular doctor treatment in the hospital. Nonetheless I would get out of something dire like open-heart surgery for a couple of thousand dollars. And I would get a nice room to recuperate in…  The cost to me of open heart surgery and a knee reconstruction in a private hospital to me are about the same – the various excesses on private insurance.]

Many people with private health insurance choose to be treated in public hospitals because the service is better in the public hospital.  For instance I know of the husband of a medical specialists who chose to have his open heart surgery in a public hospital because the hospital had an excellent reputation (and they knew and trusted the surgeon they were getting).  They chose however to recuperate largely in the comfort of the (attached) private hospital.  Many people also buy private health insurance because of the tax-driven requirement to do so – but chose to get treated in the public hospital because the copayments are (much) lower.

Ostensibly all of this was paid for through a “medicare surcharge” on your tax – about 1.5 percent. If the medicare surcharge was going to cover it the tax would have had to be about 8 percent (or about 6 percent of GDP). Many Australians (though far fewer now) did not know that the medicare surcharge did not fund public provision.

Private health insurance was originally and remains almost entirely community rated. That means that a private health insurance company charges the same amount to a 31 year old as a 75 year old. Moreover there is (and remains) almost no exclusion for pre-existing conditions.  (The exclusion for pre-existing conditions usually just applies a waiting period – including some which are prohibitive such as an exclusion longer than nine months for pregnancy.) 

Anyway community rating and lack of exclusions meant that private health insurance became the province of the elderly and the ill – and eventually became basically untenable because no healthy people ever took private health insurance. To keep the cost of private health insurance down private hospitals wound up getting subsidized – but even that did not work well.

Eventually the obvious solution was adopted – which was that if you earn more than $50 thousand per year your medicare surcharge rises by 1.5 percent if you do not have private medical insurance. This means that the young and wealthy take private health insurance even if they not think they have a reasonable probability of using it. The private health insurance business again became viable. The legal inability of private health insurance to exclude pre-existing conditions means that the private health insurers do not spend money denying claims on the basis of pre-existing conditions. Legal and claims denial cost is more than 10 percent of costs in America – so that is saved.  The resurrection of private insurance (and hence private hospitals) has meant that queue rationing in public hospitals is reduced.  That has meant that “hospital waiting lists” are much less of an issue at State elections than they were a decade ago.

The community rating of health insurance has also changed in one more important way – which is that it used not to be age-rated – and it is still not age rated provided you took out private health insurance before you were 30 and you maintain it continuously. If you took it out for the first time at 35 you will pay a “five year surcharge” for the rest of your life.

There are thus strong incentives for the well to do and the young to buy community rated health insurance. Insurance companies are not allowed to price discriminate in favour of the young – but they do advertise in favour of the young. Health insurance adverts are targeted entirely at the young (with pictures of 25 year-olds with health insurance) – and believe it or not trying to match health insurance brands with ipods.

There are plenty of things not covered by either medicare or private health insurance. These are known as extras. Extras include things like physiotherapy and dental – and they are exclusively marketed to the young. Whilst the health insurance company is prohibited from bundling their marketing looks bundled. Also there are things like “sign up for extras and get an ipod”.

There have been plenty of tweaks around the edges over the years. For example the elderly on low incomes (who qualified for a full government pension) and a few other selected elderly (veterans, war widows mainly) were entitled to the primary health care and pharmaceuticals without any copayment. There arose a small number of (mostly) elderly women whose idea of a social life was to visit a different doctor and a different pharmacist each day to have a chat (and get a script and have it filled). These small numbers of women imposed enormous costs on the medical system and a very small copayment ($2) produced a very large saving. When the copayment was raised to $5 there was no correspondingly large saving. Just the $2 mattered, and it mattered a surprising amount.

Also – even with very low cost medicine there are some things that are still not delivered even though it they clearly represent cost-effective medicine. The best example is pap smears. Very few women would go to the doctor for a pap smear for a social activity. They do however represent very cost-effective medicine. Getting young women to take jabs (the new HPV vaccine) also requires a solid advertising campaign.

Also some drugs pose particular issues. Viagra for instance is not delivered at subsidy through the health care system (for obvious reasons). But you can get subsidized Viagra if you have certain medical conditions (paraplegia being the important one). I kid you not that there have been minor problems with paraplegics dealing in Viagra.

Still – on most measures – the Australian system is a resounding success. The cost (proportion of GDP, dollars) is about half the USA – but the outcomes are better across the board. And that is not diet or lifestyle related.  Australians are almost as fat as Americans.

Surprisingly the outcomes are as good or better for the rich too. The only exception is Australia’s chronically disadvantaged native (aboriginal) population.

Political acceptance is very high. The conservatives have (totally) made their peace with the system as proposing to remove it is electoral suicide. The support of the populace is almost total.

A major American hedge fund that once tried to employ me included in their pitch their (superior) access to medical care (as they are big donors to medical charities).  To an Australian that sounded odd. Nobody would advertise a job (any job) or a business relationship with access to health care. It is just assumed to be OK. The idea of going to the USA for a medical procedure is also absurd (except for revolutionary new procedures done only by say two doctors in the world). And it is just as likely that an American will come here for such procedures.  We simply do not carry an inferiority complex with respect to our medical care.

Bluntly the system works in almost every sense that matters.

From an investment and policy perspective the more interesting question why does it work so well and how can you learn from that?  I am NOT going to assert that socialist provision of services works well in general – indeed if you believe it does then you are also failing to observe facts on the ground.

I do not have the numbers at hand – but I have a fair idea of this.

There are basically two ways Australia gets much better outcomes per dollar than America. They are the unimportant (but nice) one and the important one. Given Australia produces better health outcomes at spending maybe 7% of GDP less this is a very substantial economic issue. Translated to America those savings would be about a trillion dollars per annum. [Observation: getting this more-or-less right would be one of the most important things any government would ever do…]

The unimportant (but nice) way of getting lower health care costs in Australia

The advocates of the Australian system will note that lots of primary medical care is very cost effective. For instance pap smears stop cervical cancer. Cholesterol testing might lead to better lifestyles.

The primary health care is cheap compared to the cancers and the heart conditions. If you do better primary health care you can save money in aggregate.

I believe this – and it is important from a social perspective – but I remember chatting to the Treasury health care guys (a decade ago) and they thought that this was (at best) about 1 percent of the (then about) 7 percent cost advantage Australia had. [It may be very important though in the outcome advantage…]

The important way of getting lower health care costs in Australia

By contrast the main way getting lower health care costs in Australia is to squeeze the suppliers using government controlled and often government monopoly buying.

A very large part of the difference – the biggest single part when the Treasury guys took it apart – was that doctors were paid less in Australia. Doctors (not specialists) are middle income in Australia now – earning about 1.5 times average earnings. Thirty years ago doctors earnings were maybe 5 times average. The medical schools are now majority female reflecting in part the career aspirations of women versus men. General practice for instance can be performed part time (whilst the kids are school) and is thus a common women’s career.  In regional areas Australia clearly does not pay doctors enough.  Australia often imports doctors to work in remote areas and lack of doctors is a problem in aboriginal communities, mining towns and drier inland centres.  Queue rationing is particularly bad in places that are less attractive to live.  [As I live at the beach and have private health insurance queue rationing is not an issue for me – but it is a pivotal issue in many areas.]

Suppliers in general get squeezed. For instance the Australian government pays considerably less for most pharmaceuticals than is charged in the US. Margins in lots of research driven pharmaceutical would be squeezed. Badly.

Its not all bad though. Universal coverage means that volumes go up. A drug company may sell at a thinner margin – but the volume can offset this. In most prescription drugs the incremental costs are only about 10 percent – gross margins are 90 percent.  Volume matters for profitability.

Reasons the US will never do this as well as Australia

The outcomes in Australia are surprisingly good – but they depend at least in part on the fact that Australia is small. Australia can shave margins for research driven medical products to very low levels because the research is not funded from Australia. If the US were to push margins too low they would crimp medical research.

I have no quantification of how important this is but if had to guess it would be at least about 1 percent of GDP or a seventh of the the entire savings. It may well be 2 percent. In the US context that is $150 to 300 billion per annum.  If anyone has a quantification could they please share it.  [Modification due to someone making an entirely sensible comment on my blog…]

The second reason that America will not do this quite as well is the power of the American vested interests – and those vested interests have a lot to lose because the main way lower costs are achieved is by squeezing those interests.

Winners and losers

For medical industries there are two effects going in opposite directions.

1). The government – being a monopoly buyer – squeezes margins, and

2). Universal coverage expands usage.

It is entirely possible that something will be a big winner or loser – but the savings as a percent of GDP means that the losers will be significantly more prevalent. As a rule this is atrocious for investment in medical related businesses.  The Bronte Capital blog was founded as an investment blog.  So I should state that negative up front.  However this saving – and it is a huge saving – is transferred in part to other businesses – and hence is not bad for investments in most the rest of the US economy.  If you are a manufacturer with huge health costs in America this would be a great boon.

By contrast if you are part of the medico and medico-legal establishment then any decent semi-socialised medical system is long term poison for you.  It has proven to be long term poison for doctors’ incomes in Australia.  Dentists – where socialisation has not taken root – earn considerably more than doctors these days.

PS.  The first comment on this post nailed one other major difference between Australia and the United States.  Australia has a much less expensive tort regime.  Insurance premiums are MUCH cheaper for Australian doctors and that benefit is passed on to patients.

PPS.  I would like to thank Yves Smith of Naked Capitalism for the link and comments.  Yves has lived in both NYC and Sydney and concurs with my article.  However Yves experience of the Australian system would have been biased (upwards) in the same matter as mine as she too lived in a place which was attractive to live and she too would have had the income to queue jump had something required hospital treatment.

Read more at John Hempton's Weblog


28 Comments

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I have modified the research as a percent of GDP on my own blog... downward. Probably about 1% of GDP. Glaxo research budget about 6 billion. National Institute Health about 30 billion.

Add up all the drug companies you probably get 10 Glaxos... add up things like research into medical imaging, stents etc - OK about 1% of GDP. Most funded by the excessive profitability of the US business.

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Absolutely outstanding post!

Thank you for taking the time to bring this comparison to the Cafe. It is an invaluable tool to help offset the ongoing hysteria both here in the Cafe and across the U.S.

And what you pointed to here is the nut we have to deal with:

...the US has a fundamentally broken market system.

That is an understatement of the highest order. When people here who can afforded to have health care services are asked if they are happy with it there response is a most resounding yes. Yet when these same people are asked if there is need for reform they also answer with a resounding yes. So if they are satisfied with their care, then I can only assume they are not satisfied with the costs and insurance providers they must deal with.

Thanks again for the time and effort.

Highly recommended.

~OGD~

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Readers of this post might be interested in a OECD report about “Measuring disparities in health care status and in access and use of health care in OECD countries” Looper/Lafortune, .pdf at http://www.olis.oecd.org/olis/2009doc.nsf/linkto/DELSA-HEA-WD-HWP%282009%292 .

Here is from table: “Persons reporting an unmet care need due to cost at seven OECD countries”:

(Did not get medical care, missed medical test, treatment or follow-up, or did not fill prescription or missed doses)

(first figure for below average income, second for above)

Netherlands 3%/6%
Uk 8/9
Canada 7/18
Germany 18/24
New Zealand 21/30
Australia (sorry, John) 22/32
US 25/52

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The issue in Australia is queue rationing...

I also used to live in New Zealand which has an almost entirely socialist medical system. It is simply not comprehensible that people in NZ are not getting care due to cost. They may not be getting care because of queue rationing (which can be extreme there). Queue rationing is less extreme in Australia - but copayments are higher.

In Australia - where I am an acute follower of the political debate - the issue is not cost it is queue rationing. People will state that they are not getting care because of cost - but what they are really reporting is that they are not getting IMMEDIATE CARE due to costs.

They get the care later - its just that the hospital waiting lists can be extreme.

For my own state here is the OFFICIAL version of the hospital waiting list proceedure.

http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/waitingtimes/index.html

and here is a description of what is being done

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/Pubs/BN/2007-08/Hospital_waiting_lists.htm

Note that even heart bypass surgery is subject to waiting lists. Queue rationing is pervasive.

We are conditioned (by very extensive media for instance) to report non-receipt of care due to hospital waiting lists.

However it is received and waiting lists have dropped sharply due to the private health insurance reforms described in the post.

John

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What I meant by the last comment is that the data on non-receipt of health care due to cost is prima-facie very suspect.

The non-receipt due to waiting lists - that is a feature of socialised systems. Socialised systems queue ration.

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Interesting system. Two observations:

  • The reductions in doctors' salaries and in investment in research are to be expected, I think, as money is taken out of the system. I think this is generally good, though I also worry about declining quality of care as a result. In some ways, America's bloated health care industry provides a lot of the innovation that is then exported to places like Australia. The rest of the world has, in this way, benefitted from American over-spending: getting the fruits of America's innovation without having to bear much of the research cost. When America stops investing so much in health care, what happens to worldwide health care? Does innovation drop off precipitously and does that negatively impact not just US health care but also the whole world's healthcare? Even if there is a drop off, though, maybe that's not so bad. Maybe there is a limit to the amount of health care the world really needs? We are, after all, mortal, and maybe we need to become more comfortable with that. Trying to live eternally is just too expensive. And at some point, maybe it's just selfish to keep absorbing more resources and not graciously bow out to make room for someone new to get a chance . . .
  • It's interesting that as doctors' salaries have fallen, medicine has increasingly become "women's work." There's something disturbing about that.
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    Yes; quite "interesting."

    Hempton suggests that women may choose primary care practice (and accept lower remuneration in Australia) as a means of balancing overall demands on their time -- an explanation which is only persuasive if entry to such a practice is easy and inexpensive.

    So --

    1. Is entry into medical practice easier in Australia? That is, is it less expensive and less time consuming to obtain certification (years at medical school, interning, going through residencies)?

    2. Are Australian primary care physicians less well trained than in the United States?

    If so, given the limited functions of primary care physicians are we, here, receiving a quality of care sufficiently better to justify the hugely higher costs of our primary care?

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    One of the biggest problems here in the US is the inconsistency of health care. Where I live in central Florida, we have 8 hospitals. All but one not-for-profit.

    Getting to any of them is not a big problem, insurance or no. They are all fairly good. Also anywhere there is a Univ. affiliated teaching hospital is usually good. But elsewhere, and especially in the bigger cities or more rural areas this is not the case. And some of the hospital facilities are quite poor with long waits to get in.

    As far as physicians go...if your are admitted through a referral, you get your choice. But if through the ER...it's usually who ever is on call.

    In other words it is catch as catch can.

    C

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    No - medicine is just as hard as it always was - and the training is good by global standards.

    But - yes it is true that women are more likely to choose careers that are able to be done part time - or by default be pushed there.

    I give my own wife as an example. Before children she was responsible for the retrofit of 400 supermarkets - a huge project management job. This was simply incompatible with also being the primary care-giver. Her career options were completely changed by her primary caregiver role. I guess I could have been the primary caregiver - but at the time I earned more than she did...

    Fact: the medical schools HAVE become 65 percent female. By contrast SPECIALIST MEDICINE is over 50 percent male. Specialist careers are rarely (if ever) conducted part time. General medicine is often conducted part time. I suspect that the male-female ratio is nothing to do with skills and much to do with life choices. I can't prove that - but it seems sensible to me.

    I did not mean to pick a gender debate - but there is a correlation between pay and careers that have high proportion males. That statistical correlation is very sound. Causality is difficult to explain though (did the women chose the low income careers or are the careers low income because lots of women are interested in them...) I have no idea whatsoever as to the causality in general - and I suspect that it is a bit both ways...

    But the purpose of the post was not to explore labour economics and gender statistics. Can we keep out of that... Its not really important to the general post.

    John

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    No - medicine is just as hard as it always was - and the training is good by global standards.

    In America the recently certified physician owns the "nut." Who owns it -- and how big is it -- in Australia?

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    Without being defensive as a Canadian, you didn't really establish why the Aussie system is better than the Canadian one, which you explicitly stated at the outset.

    To a Canadian, there are lots of similarities between our systems: universal coverage, queue rationing as the most obvious, the reduction in doctor's salaries may be partly true here, for GPs, I don't have stats at hand, and I believe that there are now more women entering our medical educational system. Anecdotally, you're as or more likely to get a female physician here.

    To a Canadian, what is most striking is the elaborate business of keeping a private system going. All the more so when you refer to the private hospital as being attached to the public hospital. The first thing that strikes me is that a core premise of the Canadian system is, idiomatically, "We're all in this together". Pressure to rectify excessive queueing comes from the shared experience of having to wait to have the sprained wrist dealt with, by the well-to-do as well as the poor. Removing this pressure opens the door to two-tiered health care. The fact that you're not "all in this together" in a private/public system points to the conflict with democratic principles there.

    Second, the issue of cherry-picking, where a for-profit hospital can treat simpler, less costly cases, and rely on the fact that the public system will take up the slack. This seems to be what is happening with the case cited of the cardiac patient who decides, though paying for private insurance, decides to go to the public system, where he deems outcomes are better. The insurer is far less likely to incur the actual liabilities (in this case costly cardiac surgery), if they provide a lower standard of care. In the mean time, the public system is more burdened with the most costly procedures. A case, I would say, of the private system being effectively subsidized by the public.

    This is the basic problem with market rhetoric in health care, by the way: you can't make a rational case for an informed "consumer", since you don't know what you're buying. Open heart surgery? Liver transplant? Leukemia treatment? Next year? In fifty years? Or will you die in your sleep at 80, or be killed by a bus at 30? People don't buy statistical outcomes, and there's no market for it. A pure public system can eliminate this form of inappropriately applied economic nonsense.

    What you don't give us is outcomes between the public and private systems, perhaps because this is a no-win situation for the argument in favour of a public/private mix. If outcomes are the same, then what is the rationale for incurring the costs of two sets of administration? If public outcomes are better, then what is the actual advantage to having a private system at all? And if private outcomes are better, you don't have universal health care, you have two-tiered health care, something that can be manipulated (for example by taking procedures off the covered list and treating them as "extras") to excessively punish the public who cannot afford the health care, while (as the cardiology case shows) subsidizing the private system with public dollars.

    I suspect that the other side effect is that doctors in private hospitals, or in private insurance schemes are better paid. Your suggestion that now more women are in medicine because it is now worse-paid suggests also that you think that male doctors are primarily driven by money. The first seems highly undesireable for any health system, since it will mean that better doctors, educated largely at the public cost, become a private good. The second I just think is nonsense. Anyone who gets into medecine for the money is insane: the work is too demanding, the requirements too high, the hours too long, the conditions too difficult, the responsibility too great to make money a primary motivator. Certainly, doctors need to be paid, and paid well: their educations are expensive, and the work they do is of the highest value. So a system that (if I am right about the salary difference) pays doctors in public service less is not a good thing, particularly when it fails to pay enough to justify the cost of the education an foregone opportunities in the long process of becoming a physician.

    I am not saying that the Canadian system is a priori better, and I found the posting very interesting. Canadian and Australian per capita costs and life expectancy are nearly identical. But perhaps the point is that for all the extra layer of private insurance in Oz, if outcomes and costs are the same, Oz requires co-pays to do it, and Canada does not; Australians are maintaining a for-profit sector that in itself returns no value, and removes money from the system; the Canadian system does not generate a two-tier system that suggests distinctions of class, worth within the population (we do that other ways), and finally, Canadians (who can buy private insurance if they wish, but generally do not) generally are very happy with the performance and functioning of their public health system, which Australians obviously are not, else why buy insurance?

    Last point: the issue about the world getting a free ride on US research, etc. is a false one. In fact, the dysfunctional US medical system creates a huge profit center for developing trivial or cosmetic or redundant treatements for minor problems, or increasingly elaborate, heroic and astronomically expensive drugs for rare, extreme and very late-stage conditions; meantime, it has failed to produce vaccines or treatments for a huge range of diseases that kill millions in the third world. The world has suffered huge mortality and misery because of the heroics and vanity orientation of US medicine, driven by massive overspending and a failure to allocate research funds and attention humanely. Massive public funding of universities produces research that private companies buy at a fraction of the total cost, transferring a public good to a private one: another US innovation, and the result of unregulated pharma and insurance companies. Bringing the US into the fold of humane nations that provide humane, rational healthcare would also increase the production of drugs and techniques more applicable outside their ruined system.

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    You have argued that in the US we (a) produce super costly vanity innovations that don't really improve health and (b) have failed to produce basic vaccines or other treatments that could reduce mortality in the less developed world.

    Where is it that you deny that (c) the US has also develop useful frugs that are used ubiqutously throughout the developed world.

    Just because (a) and (b) may be true does not mean that (c) is untrue.

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    To a Canadian, what is most striking is the elaborate business of keeping a private system going. All the more so when you refer to the private hospital as being attached to the public hospital. The first thing that strikes me is that a core premise of the Canadian system is, idiomatically, "We're all in this together".

    And in order to enforce that, you are willing to virtually ban any private provision of services, so that the net taxpayers can be extorted into higher taxes by being told "you'll have to rely on charity care like the net taxeaters," so that they will have to cough up more money to the state to get speedier treatment.

    If someone wants to pay for gold-plated care, they ought to be able to do so.

    In fact, the dysfunctional US medical system... has failed to produce vaccines or treatments for a huge range of diseases that kill millions in the third world.

    Why would a socialized system that is national do any better in that regard? To the extent that research is not performed on third-world diseases, it is just as much because such research does not benefit the U.S. as it is that it is not profitable. A U.S. national health care system, to the extent that it is involved in research, would be mostly concerned with diseases that affect Americans, not that affect third-worlders. I suppose that you could argue that a U.N.-based single payer system would fund more of that research, but I question whether a less-profit driven nation-based system would.

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    My only real basis for the preference for Australia over Canada is the extent of queue rationing. (It is much worse in New Zealand - a system closer to Canada - and it is worse in Canada.)

    My Auntie runs a large hospital system in Canada. She envies our system from bitter experience.

    That said - Canada has some strong claims over the US. Also there is a way of queue jumping in Canada - which is to go over the border for medical treatment. It happens - but is not that common.

    ---

    As for the males being in medicine for the money. No - I did not say or imply that. It is just that there is a very strong correlation between income and proportion of male employees. As stated above I have no idea as to causality - and I do not want to go there.

    ---

    If you think that there is no US innovation we are free riding off then you are being willfully blind. There are plenty of real drugs with big uses driven by American research. (Think the whole product set of say Amgen for instance.) Sure there is a lot of me-too and cosmetic product - but please recognise that one of the things that makes America great is that it is - at its best - a fantastically innovative place. At its worst - well it can be awful...

    ---

    The failure of the US to produce vaccines is - if anything - a proof that socialisation is a bad thing for research. Vaccines are a notoriously non-profitable busienss. Why? Because the buyers are largely government.

    The lack of profitability of vaccines has resulted in the stripping of capacity in things like chicken egg vaccine production.

    J

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    The medical schools are now majority female reflecting in part the career aspirations of women versus men. General practice for instance can be performed part time (whilst the kids are school) and is thus a common women’s career.

    I did not mean to pick a gender debate . . . .

    . . . I do not want to go there.

    The next time you don't want to go somewhere, consider exercising a little more writerly self-discipline.

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    Sheeeeesh, Ellen; do you always have to be such a b*tch?

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    It seems to me that the information you are asking John for (in a totally unnecessarily hostile and accusatory tone, I should add) is available to anyone willing to do the research.

    This obnoxious behavior is especially rich coming from you, who deems herself a genius by writing comments and posts which do nothing but link to other people's writing, and acting as if everyone else is a dumbfuck if they don't reach the conclusion you intended.

    So get cracking, Ellen, and shut up until you can provide some of your own goddamn answers.

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    Honestly, I think it was John who was being the ass when he said:

    But the purpose of the post was not to explore labour economics and gender statistics. Can we keep out of that... Its not really important to the general post.

    If Ellen and I think it's interesting that in the Australian system John describes wages for doctors declined at the same time that more doctors became female we can discuss it can't we? Or does John think he owns his threads and can tell us what we can or can't talk about?

    John was being rude. Ellen was right to throw it back at him.

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    One other point. We are talking about restructuring an industry that, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, employs more people and is creating jobs faster than any other. Here's what the BLS says in their overview of the health care industry:

  • As the largest industry in 2006, health care provided 14 million jobs—13.6 million jobs for wage and salary workers and about 438,000 jobs for the self-employed.
  • 7 of the 20 fastest growing occupations are health care related.
  • Health care will generate 3 million new wage and salary jobs between 2006 and 2016, more than any other industry.
  • If the restructuring plan we are considering realizes some of its cost-savings by hiring a larger percentage of women and paying them lower wages, we may want to factor that into our decision, no?

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    The reasons for the increasing proportion of women in medical schools in Australia are not just economic. Over the last decade or so, most of the Australian medical schools have introduced interviews as part of the entry criteria (it used to be purely marks based), and the female applicants seem to perform better in the interviews. Applicants for entry into graduate medical schools tend to come from other health professions (such as nursing and pharmacy) and these professions tend to also have a predominance of female graduates.

    Australia has both undergraduate medical degrees that take 6 years to complete, and graduate medical degrees that take 4 years to complete. The entry requirements are usually a combination of high grades, scoring well in an entry exam (either the UMAT or the GAMSAT), and performing well in the interview for the medical schools that use interviews in assessing applicants. For many local students, the government will pay for the bulk of the training and claim back costs through the tax system (HECS) after the student graduates and starts earning money. There are also some privately (self) funded places for local and international students and they can be quite costly (I believe it is around AUD$50,000 per year but that's an educated guess).

    After finishing a basic medical qualification, it then takes a couple of years residency followed by fellowship training (3 to 4 years for primary care doctors, >5 years for other specialties) before a doctor can work independently. I believe our fellowship training in Australia is roughly equivalent to board certification in America, but I'm happy to be corrected if that is not the case.

    Wages for doctors in primary care are variable. Most doctors in primary care work as contractors in small business and their earnings reflect the throughput of patients. The amount that the government covers for a patient's consultation has not kept up with costs or inflation or CPI, therefore an increasing proportion of private doctors are charging the patient an amount above the governments standard fee. The gap between what the government covers and what the doctor charges is usually quite moderate, but has been increasing.

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    "My only real basis for the preference for Australia over Canada is the extent of queue rationing. (It is much worse in New Zealand - a system closer to Canada - and it is worse in Canada.)"

    If that's the only basis, a question of relatively minor degree in queuing, then the opening statement that the Australian system "is superior to anything in Canada or the USA" suggests a false equivalence between the US and Canada, and hurts a great deal of your argument, at least for a Canadian, but probably for an informed American as well. And, I would argue that queuing is not a worse model than adding arbitrary co-pays to discourage sad old ladies from visiting their doctor. There is ample research on the effect of isolation on health and longevity in older people. The whole example sounds like a "welfare queen" story, but perhaps you can link to some supporting material.

    I don't have an auntie with a lot of hospitals, but I do have an ageing body, many old relatives and a son who had to have major cardiac surgery at age 3, and a nephew who is autistic. I've been at the head, the end and the middle of the queue. Like most Canadians, I see queuing is a rational approach to distributing limited resources. If you decide to make access to resources universal, and not a class-based way of entrenching social inequality, then queue lengths will increase until support for the system does: that's a major issue in Canada right now, but one that is easily enough debated and resolved. Of course, the main point I made was that despite the elaborate maintenance of a private system, Australians don't benefit in terms of cost or longevity, or any other major index, but do have a system that entrenches social inequality, and a private system subsidized by the public. You also seem to have lonelier old ladies, since we don't have this epidemic of widows shuffling from doctor to doctor, bankrupting the nation. You ignored those points, so can I assume you agree?

    Longer queues for some procedures does not in itself mean that health care is worse, but it does mean that the balance of resources in health care is an ongoing debate, something that the right wing astroturfers have exploited in some ads and interviews recently. Most important, it remains an issue in the public sphere, not something that punishes one group while the other buys their way to the head of the queue. It means, basically, that patients and doctors make their best estimates of what is a priority. Not death panels, by the way.

    The assertion that "The failure of the US to produce vaccines is - if anything - a proof that socialisation is a bad thing for research. Vaccines are a notoriously non-profitable busienss. Why? Because the buyers are largely government." is pretty loopy. Military equipment in almost exclusively bought by governments, and I hear there are people making a buck or two at it. What possible connection is there between private researchers who don't want to make products to sell to governments and socialisation? I think you'll find that pharmas sell quite a lot of products to governments -- like, say, the Canadian Governtment, who ensures that we pay 40% less for drugs in Canada, and maintain a healthy generic drug supply in many categories. You think that spells the end of medical research. My point is that it tends to restrict a certain type of research only justified by extremely high prices that deny resources to other research programs that demonstrably produce massively better outcomes – unless the assumption is that some people are more worth saving than others, something integral to a public/private system.

    Of course, the real reason that vaccines per se are a lousy business, is because the use of the product leads to declining illnesses, and shrinking or eliminated markets for expensive, after the fact treatments. They are -- if anything -- an example of the brutalizing, inhumane priorities of an unregulated, for-profit greed-driven medical system insulated from public pressure.

    As a last note, your recurrent use of 'socialized' in reference to health care seems to obscure the fact that systems like the Canadian one are NOT socialized medicine, they're single payer. Doctors are private enterprises, who have a single insurer to deal with, and a simple means of determining fees, and no bureaucratic issues around eligibility.

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    And, I would argue that queuing is not a worse model than adding arbitrary co-pays to discourage sad old ladies from visiting their doctor. There is ample research on the effect of isolation on health and longevity in older people.

    Going to a doctor every day is not a cost-effective way to deal with loneliness. Reducing the queue rationing by preventing frivolous use of medical services is a good idea.

    Like most Canadians, I see queuing is a rational approach to distributing limited resources. If you decide to make access to resources universal, and not a class-based way of entrenching social inequality, then queue lengths will increase until support for the system does: that's a major issue in Canada right now, but one that is easily enough debated and resolved.

    Again, virtually ban private care to make the taxpayers pay up.

    Of course, the real reason that vaccines per se are a lousy business, is because the use of the product leads to declining illnesses, and shrinking or eliminated markets for expensive, after the fact treatments.

    Also the fact that many of the vaccines that are not being researched are for third-world diseases, that not only cannot make a profit, but which also rich, non-third-world governments have little incentive to subsidize, because such diseases rarely affect their citizens.

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    Another discussion about the cost of health care without any reference to the actual delivery of health care (except for how long you wait to get it and how much the person doing the delivering makes).

    1. Under the US single payer system for person under 65, the cost of care for similar patients varies dramatically (by up to a factor of 3 or so) depending on where you live and where you are getting your care. Is there any doubt we all would prefer to be treated with equal quality but for less money?

    2. Many of places where health care is delivered at high quality and lower cost, have distinct features: organized multi-specialty-team based approach, evidence based practices, salaried doctors, emphasis on primary care, continuous quality improvement processes. IS there any reason we should not try to move the entire delivery system in this direction? Is there any doubt that if the insurance system is the same but the process of care is different then it can't be the insurance system that is responsible for some places providing much more efficient care?

    3. How did Toyota wind up making much better cars than GM?

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    doctors were paid less in Australia

    Doctors are paid less by our Medicare system, too. (Using www.seniorlaw.com/medicare.htm for the quoted data, but you can go to Medicare.gov for the same and more.)

    Medicare Part B has fixed fees or allowable or approved charges. The amount is often substantially less than the physicians actual charges.

    Doctors who "accept assignment" agree to accept payment at Medicare's allowed rate. Providers who do not accept assignment are still reimbursed at 80% of the allowed rate. However, in 1993 and afterward their total fee is limited to 115% of the Medicare rate. The amount over the Medicare reimbursement is known as the balance bill.

    In our messy system is often argued that those both "on assignment" and not on assigment "make up the difference" by what they charge private carriers and the out-of-pocket. Hence every bargaining ploy by private insurance companies to get close to Medicare rates is frustrating for them.

    It has also been argued that the secretive and powerful RVS Update Committee (or RUC) that sets Medicare reimbursement rates, and their long-time preference for allowing specialists to be paid much more is one of the main reasons for our dearth of primary care doctors.

    The medical community also knows that

    Our Medicare single payer system has these charges for inpatient hospitalizion.

    Inpatient hospital deductible....$1,068.

    Inpatient days 2-60 (over the intial $1,068)....fully covered

    Inpatient hospital copay for days 61 - 90...$267 per day.

    Hospital copayment for days 91-150 (lifetime reserve days)...$534 per day.

    Patient pays all costs for each day beyond 150 days

    With hospitalization, that's what our government uses on the consumer "stick" end.

    On the supplier end, though, suppliers don't get anything related to those figures. On the supplier end they do something entirely different: they pay them with a "prospective payment system" according to Diagnosis-Related Groups. This creates very odd incentives. It is especially detrimental to post-hospitalization care, too often resulting in re-hospitalization. Also, I recall reading some time about how these payments can also adjusted according to service to a poor community, though I have no citation for that.

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    p.s. Forgot to say thanks for doing this post especially with the audience here at TPM in mind, even though its clear you were kind of hesitant about doing it without rigorous research, spending as much time on it as you did, and not just throwing out the same old same old basics. It's just plain interesting to get this kind of honest input for those of us who wish to see our country do the best it can for its own circumstances.

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    ... very odd incentives ...

    On Massachusetts Radio Free Wingnut the other day, Neocomrade Ch. D. Baker, who presided till just the other day at Harvard Pilgrim Health Care, but has resigned to run for governor as a GOP extremist, stunned me by actually sayin’ somethin’ sensible, namely that the way Big Medicine works in the USA, it is almost impossible to know what anything at all ‘really’ costs.

    Of course we lay sheep cannot know such high matters directly, but does that estimate not sound dreadfully plausible?

    Happy days.


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    Your very good comment had me thinking back to it from time to time. First it was an "amen" kind of thing. But as time went on, I got to wondering: do any of the other first world systems really have much more input about what individual things cost? While we do the horrible game of cost shifting, don't they just sort of give up on that and do a sort of "cost lumping" instead? It boggles sometimes, perhaps because the proper practice of medicine is more art than science? Life is not a controlled trial....

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    Re: recall reading...these payments can also adjusted according to service to a poor community

    Just found some extremely interesting elaboration that, written in unsually clear terms for us layman. It does seem that economics training and/or expertise at Congressional pork minutae is called for to fully understand:

    ....There is one baseline DRG for each condition, but that baseline payment for hospitals is adjusted for other factors, including local labor costs, hospital location, teaching and training programs, large Medicaid and non-paying populations, and so on. The dollar value of the modifiers often exceeds the dollar value of the underlying DRG. It is these modifiers that account for the large region to region variation.


    For example, a hospital in San Francisco may receive an added labor cost allowance that is 50% of DRG, and receive additional payments for having a teaching program and for having a large Medicaid population, resulting in a payment of more than twice the DRG baseline. Meanwhile, a hospital in rural Nebraska might actually receive less than the standard payment for a particular DRG because labor costs are lower than average, and there are no additional modifiers, resulting in a payment which is less than the baseline.

    However, there are some special modifiers for rural hospitals that are sole providers or regional referral centers that can increase payment for services in rural areas as well.

    The value of DRG’s and modifiers are supposed to be derived from evidence, but in reality there is also a large political component, with members of Congress intervening aggressively to force changes in payments for their areas, both rural and urban.

    The political factor leads to some strange results, with areas blessed with involved congressmen receiving higher payments than those with more passive representatives. Labor payment indices are set county by county, and Dade County, FL, (Miami) has the highest payments, higher than other areas where the cost of living is clearly higher—such as New York City and San Francisco. Reimbursements in Miami also are substantially higher than in cities with fairly similar costs, like Minneapolis.

    This uneven payment pattern is behind the recent statement by the Blue Dog caucus that they would not support health care reform unless the Medicare payment system was changed to reduce the disparities that put hospitals in their regions at a disadvantage. Some of the perception of inequality is no doubt correct, but some of it may be due to complaints by doctors and hospital...

    from
    August 24, 2009
    Does Medicare Under-Pay Hospitals?
    Healthbeatblog.com

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    John Hempton

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