Who should be more outraged; Americans if we don't get to see those photos, or the Islamic faithful if they do get to see them?
Considering how much of that taunting and torture in those unreleased photos is specifically dependent on degrading Islamic ethnic and religious customs, I think the Obama administration's refusal to release them is prudent, to put it mildly.
The arrogant, jovial, pointing poses and the shameful forced nudity of very modest people would only serve to lower our already Bush-bottomed-out international public image and ignite a firestorm of outrage much more palpable than our demand to see those photos. And that could very well lead to some of our troops being attacked.
If you think your outrage at not seeing the photos would be greater than theirs after seeing those photos, ponder if one of those victims was your brother, father or friend.
For those of us with friends and family in those foreign lands, it just makes sense to do whatever it might take to avoid the possibility of a firestorm of violence towards Americans that might follow releasing those photos.
So, while I really don't think we should be there (take your pick which "there" I mean), loose lips still sink ships. No doubt, our ingrained public voyeurism will demand satisfaction, but common sense dictates this is one of those cases where the voyeurs can wait.
Too many innocent lives are still at risk.
Sorry, but that is censorship.
The photos should be released, America should apologize, and the architects of the policy that allowed these abuses to occur should be indicted and prosecuted the fullest extent of the law.
The US chose to release the video of Daniel Pearl getting his head sawed off, but won't release those photos. That is hypocrisy. No amount of hurt feelings or potential for anger/violence should block the timely release of documents that reveal the truth about our post-9/11 foreign policy.
May 13, 2009 5:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
This assertion, while true, is too simplistic. Just to give one example, Mein Kampf is censored in Germany and in most of Europe. Can anyone seriously accuse governments here of an obstructionist sub agenda in doing so (even if you disagree with them?).
I just blogged about this. I think Americans should consider how this is affecting those most concerned before trying to satisfy the public conscience.
May 14, 2009 9:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
It is not at all about satisfying the public conscience. It is about satisfying the law.
In that respect, the government has lost and their arguments have lost at every turn even when most of the judges have been Republican appointees. The government really has no good reason for suppressing these photos and now, after having announced they would release them only a few weeks ago, pulling this "safety of the troops" canard out is really very dishonest in my opinion. In the end, neither my opinion nor anyone else's is important. The decision will be made by the courts.
May 14, 2009 1:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's my view of it. Courts will decide.
May 14, 2009 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think there are two separate questions here that shouldn't be confused: whether the abuse was legal and whether or not to release the photos to the public. Releasing ( or not) these images doesn't affect in any way the legal question.
Few people writing here believe the abuse was legal and most want investigation and prosecution. the problem is knowing what to do with the information, which is painful to the victims and to the populations involved.
This has nothing to do with Republican judges or with Republicans in general even if they want these images concealed for other reasons.
May 14, 2009 4:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
"America should apologize, and the architects of the policy that allowed these abuses to occur should be indicted and prosecuted the fullest extent of the law."
We agree completely on this point.
But I consider your final sentence "No amount of hurt feelings or potential for anger/violence should block the timely release of documents." is not very well thought out. I agree, the hurt feelings really don't matter, but the potential for violence does, and no one with a loved-one in the war zone wants to see that.
And just a matter of practicality, replace the word "block" with "delay", there's no doubt these photos will come out, it is just a matter of timing.
Right now, we are taking baby steps towards international resolution, and this would be a giant leap backwards to the Bush years. That is when this all happened, but the response would occur NOW, in the form of retribution towards young American men and women who had no part in it.
May 13, 2009 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
We all had a part in it if you believe we live in a free country where the people rule. But then, if we don't live in a free country it all makes sense.
May 13, 2009 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
We're very good Germans.
May 13, 2009 6:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
We need to start becomeing a real democracy and put this 18th century republic to rest.
Read the federalist papers again, or for the first time.
If you do, anyone with a grain of sense will recognize that our Republic formed because any vote count had to be carried by horseback to the capitol. Over and over again, the Federalist papers refer to necessity that no longer exists, due to our advanced technology.
I contend that it is time to take the government onto our own shoulders and stop electing others to do that work. We should be voting on policy, not politicians, because the politicians won't necessarily represent the majority on making policy.
If we had REAL democracy, the opportunity to vote on real issues and not popular personalities to vote for us, then we would have no one to blame but ourselves. Under such a system, we would all be culpable.
As it is now, we really can blame the 107th and 108th Congresses and Cheney/Bush for the mess we are in.
May 14, 2009 11:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
I would care less about the release of these photos if I saw real and meaningful steps being taken to hold those responsible for war crimes accountable. Without that, it's harder to accept because it is clear that 'we' must stay active and alert to demand accountability in response to all of the hype and PR from Cheney, Hannity, Graham and the like. I feel torn because of course I would not want them to make our soldiers less safe, however I think the damage is already done there with the previous photos. So, releasing them would likey increase public outrage which in my perception is not 'outraged' enough.
May 13, 2009 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I get the feeling Cheney's telegraphing to all of us that he knows there's an investigation coming, or he wouldn't be running interference in the media.
So while there's no certifiable investigation on the books yet, the storm clouds are gathering, and Cheney knows it better than we do.
You want to know how to spot a guilty person?
They spend most of their time claiming they are innocent. For all his Wall Street savvy and feigned gravitas, Cheney's not smart enough to keep his big mouth shut.
Maybe he's possessed with a spirit of self-destruction, I don't know what else would make him so transparently desperate.
Don't watch Congress or the White House for the first clue that there's an investigation underway.
Watch the guilty parties as they squirm.
The Bush era Republicans, particular the no-bid, book-cooking CEO Neocons, were very good at tilting the scales of Justice because she wears that blindfold.
But they seem to have forgotten, in their "permanent Republican majority" delusion, that in her other hand is a sword.
May 13, 2009 7:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very well stated
I completely agree about the guilty running around talking about how innocent they are... i.e. Blagojevich.
Just saw a bit with a member from the ACLU who are on the other side of this case pushing to release the photos and he basically agreed that if an 'independent' special prosecutor were assigned, with full authority to prosecute crimes, and the photos were released only to their team, that would be satisfactory. So the main issue behind pusshing for release is really about getting to accountability as far as I can tell.
May 13, 2009 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, it seems like there's a concerted effort to avoid that. From Cheneytour '09 to Pointing out the splinter in Pelosi's eye to Obama caving, it's the fargin losers powers that be that are looking to cover their scaly nether regions.
"Pay no attention to those men behind the curtain!"
May 13, 2009 9:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
If releasing these photos would put our troops at risk, maybe we should think about stopping Bush's wars of choice, and get our troops out of harms way.
Just a crazy thought.
May 13, 2009 9:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
We need more crazy thinkers like you...
May 13, 2009 10:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
hear hear
May 14, 2009 11:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
I just don't see what is to be gained by releasing more. I've seen enough to know all I need to know. We did it and we should be apologizing like hell.
A million more pictures won't change anything...
May 13, 2009 10:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Releasing the photos will only please the media because it's another controversy to analyze to death. Americans won't spend more than a few minutes being disgusted and then move on. I keep saying, until this hits home (if/when it happens to American soldiers), Americans won't care.
Obama is being called a flip-flopper and accused of embracing "Bushism" when the only thing he has done is changed his mind based on the facts on the ground - he can't win for shit.
May 13, 2009 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are no facts on the ground that changed. These are the same arguments GWB was making and Obama rejected in his campaign. He rejected them a couple of weeks ago as President. Now he's made a political choice because of the blowback he got from conservatives.
May 14, 2009 9:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
"There are no facts on the ground that changed."
Are you there? Were you privy to the Generals' conversation with Obama?
Does your argument serve any purpose other than joining some perceived pile-on for purely political reasons?
I'm getting the feeling some of the most vocal critics of Obama's no-pic decision are actually scheming conservatives, joining the sincere liberals who in this criticism.
While the libs are honorable in their criticism (but I think short-sighted) these disingenuous conservative critics could care less one way or another about the troops or transparency or any of the things the libs are concerned about, they just want to trash Obama.
One problem with a pile-on, you never know who's going to join the pile.
May 14, 2009 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well you're wrong. Conservatives love the fact that Obama is joining with forces of darkness and attempting to hide the pictures from public scrutiny just as Bush did. The people criticizing Obama simply believe that if it was wrong when Bush was suppressing release of documents (in this case photos of criminal activity) then it is still wrong even if it is now Obama trying to hide the evidence. It's really that simple.
Those who support the President are now cleaving to the national security arguments because they very much want to believe the President isn't lying to them. I really don't understand why people are so reluctant to believe a politician might lie to them on something like this when it has been demonstrated over and over again that every adminstration engages in such behavior. Obama is not any different. He is first and foremost a politician.
The idea that the generals might have provided some "new" information in the opast month is simply absurd. The argument that release of the photos would put troops in danger has been made frequently in the past. The Obama administration is simply grasping at this excuse as the last legal straw since this particular argument was not specifically used before though it was clearly implied.
May 14, 2009 1:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
So what you are saying is before he announced that the photos would be released a few weeks ago he didn't ask his generals for their opinions? The arguments have not changed. It will endanger our soldiers, it will enflame the Muslim world etc. Unless one of they said if you release these photos two hours later an American soldier will be attacked directly as a result of the photo release, I am not buying it. It's called political pressure and as usual Obama only seems to caves to it when it's coming from the conservative positions you seem to be defending here.
May 14, 2009 7:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agree with JEP07.
There is one picture that would reduce the risk to our soldiers, Bush &/or Cheney behind bars. We need to do it.
Having known Eric Holder personally, I can say Holder is one very tough guy who will enforce the law as he sees it. He has a long record of going after politicians who have broken the law, including the one time most powerful politician in DC, Dan Rostenkowski.
May 14, 2009 12:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think everyone who is disappointed there's not been enough done to bring the guilty to justice, should keep the word "stealth" in the back of their minds.
Justice may be occasionally delayed, but she is never denied.
I probably shouldn't be expressing this opinion out loud,it may put "them" on the alert, but it looks to me as there's ample evidence an investigation coming soon to a CSpan near you.
Can you imagine the kind of boost the entire MSM would get from a week of Cheney's unprotected testimony?
That alone assures we will have a show to watch.
Ponder the day when Addington, Yoo and the rest have to testify they were ordered by Cheney to come up with a way to justify torture.
I hope they get Ashcroft up there, too, to talk about that hospital bed meeting. At least he'll likely honor the oath he gives to tell the truth with his hand on the Bible.
One way or another, that day is coming.
May 14, 2009 11:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
FOI should require a "need to know". What is the ACLU's basis for demanding the pics be made public?
Withholding the pics is certainly not censorship as claimed by one commenter here, unless that commenter took the pictures himself.
There are an incredible number of other strange notions being floated on this topic...
What does concern me is the wishy-washy appearance Obama is giving and the apparent contradiction in how his statement compares to what he said in January about transparency.
Not all dirty laundry need be aired in public.
May 14, 2009 2:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
"What does concern me is the wishy-washy appearance Obama is giving and the apparent contradiction in how his statement compares to what he said in January about transparency."
If my guess is correct, he needed much more courage than wishy-washiness, to make this 180.
May 14, 2009 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink