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Another geeky energy post


Since I managed to draw the ire of at least 3 people (at least one of whom clearly didn't understand the technology) with my last post pimping ground-assist heat pumps, I thought I'd give it another go, but this time I'd like to focus on another really cool high-tech, low-cost and low-work way to boost home energy efficiency.  Before I go there, I'd just like to offer up this link to those of you who find geo-thermal or ground-assist heating and cooling systems intriguing.  It's a cool savings calculator that allows you to plug in your location, home size, existing heating & cooling system info, and then shows you the annual savings on energy bills you could realize with a geo-thermal heat pump system.  Keep in mind that this IS a manufacturer's website, and the calculator doesn't take into account your personal energy usage habits; in my case, the fact that for 2 - 3 months per year I open up the house and run a whole-house fan means that I wouldn't save as much as they indicate.  But still it's a cool toy that can help you see the savings these systems could offer in your part of the country. 

Now, on to today's geek topic:  radiant heat barrier.

Basically what we're talking about here is aluminum foil that you staple to the framing in your attic, floor, or exterior walls.  It operates on the principle that most heat loss/heat gain is due to radiant transfer - heat moving through an object or air.  The "R-value" you see cited on insulation stands for "resistance".  Basically, that's what insulation does - it "resists" heat transfer, mostly through trapped air pockets.  It doesn't stop heat transfer; it just slows it down by trapping the heat in the insulation's air pockets.  And when it has trapped all the heat it can hold, it then "radiates" that heat out, in all directions.  That's at least one of the reasons why, in summer, a house that's been shut all day with the A/C off will still be hotter than the outside air when you return home at night - there's insulation and air up in the attic that's now releasing the heat it stored during the day into your living space.  The same thing happens in reverse during the winter, only now the heat trapped in the insulation is heat that's rising from your living space.

What radiant barrier does is reflect heat.  In summer, the heat in your attic is mostly radiant heat being given off by the underside of the roof.  A radiant barrier under the roof joists will reflect up to 97% of that heat back out so the attic space never heats up in the first place (and the insulation on the attic floor never traps it to release it later back into your home).

There are a number of radiant barrier products on the market now.  One that I have used successfully in several installations is Prodex, which is a layer of closed-cell foam sandwiched between aluminum foil on each surface.  It has an Energy Star rating.  I first used this product in a 100-year-old home which had closets tucked under the roof slope - one of them on the south side of the house.  So much heat radiated through the roof in the summer that the homeowners complained they couldn't sleep in the bedroom during hot weather.  They wanted to demolish the back plaster wall and sloped ceiling of the closet and install insulation, then close it back up.  But since insulation needs an air space to work effectively, and there was only about 6" of space from the back of the wall surface to the bottom of the roof deck, I told them I didn't think they would gain much relief with fiberglass batts.  So I started researching and found this stuff.  Working with it was easy - it's flexible, only 1/4" thick, can be cut with scissors and installed with a staple gun, and it has an R-value of 15.  With the space we had to work with, we weren't going to get even that high of an R-value with fiberglass.  We left air gaps between the material and the roof deck, and between the material and the wallboard.  By the time we put the last piece in, the temperature in the bedroom had dropped - by about 20 degrees!

Well, after that I was sold, and since then, I've recommended to every customer that we install the barrier any time we open an exterior wall or someone wants to insulate an attic or crawl space.  For one thing, it's easier to handle than batts or blown-in insulation and it works better, too.  For another thing, the cost of the material is only 50 cents per square foot, less if you are buying a larger quantity - this compares favorably with the cost of both fiberglass batt and blown-in insulation.  For those customers doing new additions, I've recommended it as a house wrap in place of Tyvek - it provides the same vapor barrier, but adds insulation and soundproofing as well.  And thanks to the energy incentives included in the bailout, if you install this stuff any time in 2009, you'll get a $300 tax credit.

As for myself, I'm planning on installing it next year in my own home.  I'm going to be installing it over the ceiling joists so that I get the winter benefit of heat being reflected back down into my living area.  We're going to screed down the top couple inches of existing blown cellulose to allow an air gap and then staple this stuff to the tops of the ceiling joists.  Then, we'll run 2" sleepers over the top of it, perpendicular to the ceiling joists, and install decking above.  The decking will keep the foil surface free of dust so the top refelective layer can do its thing during the summer - reflecting the heat of the attic up and away from my living area.  One of the reasons I'm installing this way is due to my only concern with this product - I would hesitate to place it in direct contact with the bottom side of a roof deck, or on top of a roof deck under the tar paper, because I worry that the additional heat being reflected by the product would cause shingles to deteriorate more quickly.  I don't think this is a problem if the proper air gap is allowed for and the attic is well-ventilated with a ridge vent, where the heat can flow up the gap between the barrier and the roof deck and out through the vent, but I want the winter benefit as well.  I'll be jacketing the water heater and wrapping the water pipes under the house with it as well.

So, for those of you who advocate "envelope improvements", this one's for you - though you'd still get better efficiency and greater energy savings with a ground-assist heat pump.


42 Comments

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Good to emphasize. The drafty shack I rent has a more basic problem, mass transfer, or exchange of air. So I keep the temperature difference as small as possible, and just don't try to heat the whole place.

The groundwater approach is absolutely sensible for those of us in the temperate zone. Even in the humid south, there is better cooling by using the mildly warm water as a heat sink. It can accept way more heat than air, and is always at least somewhat cooler than summer air temps.

People in the dry southwest have enough sun to make up the difference in efficiency. And they have less humidity to fight when cooling.

And for warmth, I had a little fun running tap water over the cold side of a window air conditioner. It was putting out gobs of heat from the hot side. If someone sold a window-mount heat pump I'd buy it and supply it with groundwater.

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I think if you look into the matter, most heat loss from a typical USA home is through conductance and convection. Radiant heat is that which, for instance, you feel near the burner on the stove; and heat doesn't radiate from the house until after it has conducted through the building components and is radiated off the outside surfaces.

Insulation is intended to slow the conductance of heat through wall cavity and through the ceiling and floor membranes. If the temperature of the attic side of the sheetrock or crawl space side of the floor assembly is maintained, by insulation, more closely to the temperature of the interior of the membranes then conductive heat flow is slowed.

Most heat loss from the house is through conductance though the windows, off the exterior surface of which the heat ultimately radiates.

Another major source of heat loss in a home is through convection, that is through leaks, particularly around doors and windows, along the sole plate of framing, and through wall penetrations such as outlet boxes and etc.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics holds that warm air always moves toward cooler air, seeking equilibrium.

Aluminum foil conducts heat really well, though it does reflect radiant heat it is not at all effective at impeding conductance. Your aluminum foil idea will not be very effective at reducing convective heat loss unless, for instance, you tape all the seams, and will not be at all effective at impeding conductive heat loss.

Your best defense against heat loss is to seal leaks, put up storm windows or new more efficient windows, and add insulation in the attic and under the floor.

Leak sealing is the most cost effective measure, followed by adding attic insulation, followed by more floor insulation.

"screed[ing] down the top couple inches of existing blown cellulose to allow an air gap and then staple this stuff to the tops of the ceiling joists." is a really terrible idea. Compressing insulation radically reduces its effectiveness.

You will be far better off to place rolls of R-30 batt insulation in the attic perpendicular to the ceiling joists.

As someone who for years administered a home weatherization program and advocated for conservation, as opposed to nuclear power plants, and as someone who in the early 1970s tried your aluminum foil suggestion, I suggest further research of the subject.

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I think you misunderstand. I'm not going to compress the insulation in my attic; I'm going to screed off the top 2", and go over the tops of the joists with a material that not only reflects heat (down towards living space in winter, up towards attic space in summer) but also has an R-value of 15, which more than makes up for the loss of 2" of cellulose.

I suggest taking a look at the material I plan on using before making the assumption that it won't work. As I said, I've used it before and in a climate where one of the biggest problems is how to keep your house cool in 90 days of 95+ degree weather, controlling radiant heat is a very big issue on controlling energy costs.

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So you will remove about R-7 and install R-15, for a net of R-8, at a cost of about $.30 per square foot, at which cost you could lay down R-19 fiberglass batts.

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If the R-19 was of any use in stopping the radiant heat gains we get in our 3 months of 95 + degree weather, that would be a good option. But it doesn't.

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Actually fiberglass or cellulose insulation is just as effective at keeping the heat out as is it at keeping the heat in. The attic above the insulation should be ventilated.

By the way, I went to the web site. That's where I got the cost information. The cute little illustrations of radiant heat loses and gains would apply to buildings without attics.

Just trying to be helpful. It's your house and money.

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Prodex seems to be water heater insulation. What concerns me is that you don't want a vapor barrier inside the building envelope because at the right dewpoint moisture will condense on the surface. With two layers of foil and closed cell spray foam, Prodex must be a extreme vapor barrier.

Insulation should be designed for the region, but I've been putting either closed-cell spray foam or an adhered air barrier outside the sheathing and open-cell foam inside the sheathing. If we put any film inside the envelope wall, it must be a vapor retarder not a vapor barrier.

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You are correct, the vapor/air barrier should only be put on the warm side of insulation.

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Actually on the warm side we're only putting vapor retarders now.

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Vapor retarders on the exterior, yes. But vapor barriers on the interior to prevent the migration of moisture laden warm air from inside the home particularly into the wall cavities where the warmer air can give up its latent heat, at the dew point, and condensation occurs.

The only places where such would not hold true are areas where the outside temperature is never lower than the inside temperature.

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Back in the 1980s, my townhouse developer/client tried something like that. He found that paint kept peeling from the wall. We eventually figured out that moisture entered the gypsum board and stayed there, making it too moist for the paint to adhere properly. The moisture couldn't get past the vapor barrier. Of course if you have mechanical ventilation of the space, the problem will be greatly lessened, but most townhouses only vent the bathrooms and stovetops.

Read that PDF document I posted in the comments. Improper placement of vapor barriers can lead to mold problems.

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I see that my previous post was incorrect. A moisture barrier goes on the outside and a vapor barrier or retarder on the inside, except in the Southern states where high temperatrues and high humidity are the norm.

My experience is in the Northern latitudes where the heat/vapor movement is toward the outside and where a vapor/air barrier on the backside of the sheetrock is the recommended practice.

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I should also say that the building codes where I worked for many years required mechanical ventilation of homes, as I suspect the building codes now require everywhere. There is required ventilation not only in bathrooms and in kitchens, but also "whole house exhaust fans" or heat exchanger to remove vapor laden air from the home. I used a hot water heater with an integrated heat pump which recovered the heat from the warm, moist air from the home to ventilate my home and heat the water.

In the example you cite I suspect there was inadequate ventilation in the home. Mold on the walls, in my experience, generally occurred in remote ares of the homes, such as in bedrooms, where closed doors exacerbated the problem; and usually on the lower portion of the walls where the air was coolest.

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And not to keep kicking a dead horse, but if you think about it a vapor barrier on the backside of the sheetrock should be at just about the same temperature as the interior side of the sheetrock, so a condensation problem should be only very marginally exacerbated by the presence of a vapor barrier.

From the research I've read, again for the Northern latitudes, an air tight air/vapor barrier (i.e. 6 mil plastic) on the interior side prevents vapor laden air from migrating into the wall cavities. I did such my house, going so far as taping all seams and penetrations, such as outlet boxes, and had no moisture problems. Though I had the heat pump water heater pulling the vapor laden air from the home eight hours each day.

The maximum electric bill for the all electric home was $100 a month in December in Washington State where the cost was over $.04 per kWh

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Vapor barriers are also a cold climate artifact that have diffused into other climates more from ignorance than need. The history of cold climate vapor barriers itself is a story based more on personalities than physics. Rose (1997)2 regales readers of this history. It is frightening indeed that construction practices can be so dramatically influenced by so little research and reassuring indeed that the inherent robustness of most building assemblies has been able to tolerate such foolishness.

http://www.nuwool.com/pdf/VaporBarrierJournalPaper.pdf

Same author as that other PDF, but more readable.

As far as mechanical ventilation, I ask myself whether it is a good idea to rely too much on mechanical systems.

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I'm sure I don't know as much about practical insulation as you and others here, but I know my 2nd law of thermodynamics, so I'm going to nit-pick there. It does not state that warm air will move towards colder air (although it will if given the chance due to the ideal gas law). It states (in some forms) that heat will move towards cold. As you correctly point out, this can be done not only through mass transfer, but also through other techniques that do not involve moving air (conductance and radiance).

You probably already knew all this and merely misspoke, but the 2nd law gets abused so much by Creationists that I reflexively feel the need to defend it.

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I'm surer you know more about the Second Law of Thermodynamics than do I. I guess I was addressing the matter in terms of heat loss from a home.

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I'm surer you know more about the Second Law of Thermodynamics than do I. I guess I was addressing the matter in terms of heat loss from a home. I don't understand all that stuff about entropy.

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I'm all for whatever works. When I lived in Albuquerque, nearly every house was fitted with a swamp cooler. They work exceptionally well, but the technology is not transferable. If you don't live on the desert, you can't use one because it won't work in less than dry air. I've spent some serious time crunching the numbers on the various alternative energy solutions, and the conclusion I've come to is that the most effective solutions are local/regional. Which makes sense in a way. I mean, how many times have you seen an adobe house in NYC? So why should you expect to see a wind generator in Boston? A: You shouldn't.

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Maybe not Boston, but how about Hull?

;-)

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Evaporative cooling is easy and way effective. Unfortunately, its operating fluid is water, not exactly an abundant resource in the southwest. Sun, however,...

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It won't work here in Minnesota because it's too humid in the summertime. The water doesn't evaporate fast enough to provide any real cooling.

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Ys, but I remember one really roasting-hot day at Ravinia Festival, temps onstage in the 90s, and they brought out an 8-ft-tall evaporator, fed by garden hose. Hurricane fan and a bit cooler, we were grateful. Must be used for cooling off football teams.

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I suggest both of Donai and Chris Brown go and look at the website, including the installation recommendations, for this product before making another comment.

I don't know what it is with people on this site who insist on disputing things without checking into linked information. That's why the links are there.

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I don't know what it is with people who post information as fact and become offended when others present contrary arguments.

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The issue is that your "contrary argument" was premised on issues other than radiant heat transfer, which was and is the entire issue being addressed by this post. I don't know where you live, but where I live, radiant heat gain in summer is a particularly important issue. You instead went on at length about conductance, convection, etc., as if the original post ever suggested that those weren't issues. It didn't. Had I put up a post that said, "hey, don't worry about those leaky old windows or weatherstipping around your doors" or "tear out the insulation in your attic and use this instead", your response would have been congruent to the post. But I didn't say that or in any way suggest that.

I'm a contractor; I've used this stuff and know how effective it is. My customers who have installed it have reported significantly increased levels of comfort both summer and winter and lower fuel bills; I've been there when it's being installed and have noticed immediate results. But hey, you tacked up some aluminum foil in your attic back in the 70s and didn't notice much result so therefore, this stuff is useless - even though it's not just aluminum foil and you've never used it.

That's my issue, this all or nothing bullshit pissing match so many people here seem to want to engage in. Different technologies to address different conditions and issues, people. One size does not fit all.

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Perhaps you should go to the web site you linked and review the installation in an attic, because what you propose to do is contrary to directions given at the site.

Have fun. This ends my responses to your "bullshit pissing match".

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I've done better than that; I've talked with the company about it and gotten their specific recommendations. Given that you can't install the stuff over recessed can lights (just as you shouldn't install other types of insulation over recessed cans not rated for it), there will be areas where any moisture that might occur can escape and there will be no condensation issue.

So much for knowing it all, eh? Thanks for weighing in.

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I'm an architect. I recommend you read the third bullet point below very carefully.

Wall Assembly Design Recommendations The following wall assembly design recommendations are climatically based and are sensitive to cladding type (vinyl siding, brick or stone veneer, stucco). The recommendations apply to residential occupancies. The recommendations do not apply to business, assembly, educational and mercantile occupancies and to special use enclosures such as spas, pool buildings, museums, hospitals, data processing centers or other engineered enclosures such as factory, storage or utility enclosures. RR-0410: Vapor Barriers and Wall Design 4 5 The recommendations are based on the following principles: • Avoidance of using vapor barriers where vapor retarders will provide satisfactory performance. Avoidance of using vapor retarders where vapor permeable materials will provide satisfactory performance. Thereby encouraging drying mechanisms over wetting prevention mechanisms. • Avoidance of the installation of vapor barriers on both sides of assemblies — i.e. "double vapor barriers" in order to facilitate assembly drying in at least one direction. • Avoidance of the installation of vapor barriers such as polyethylene vapor barriers, foil-faced batt insulation and reflective radiant barrier foil insulation on the interior of air-conditioned assemblies — a practice that has been linked with moldy buildings. • Avoidance of the installation of vinyl wall coverings on the inside of air conditioned assemblies — a practice that has been linked with moldy buildings. Each of the wall assembly design recommendations were evaluated using dynamic hygrothermal modeling. The moisture content of building materials that comprise the building assemblies all remained below the limiting-equilibrium moisture contents as specified in ASHRAE 160 P under this evaluation approach. Interior air conditions and exterior air conditions as specified by ASHRAE 160 P were used. WUFI was used as the modeling program.

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0410-vapor-barriers-and-wall-design/?topic=/doctypes/researchreport

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Thanks. I'm an architect too. I don't think I recommended installing anything on the inside of an air-conditioned space and I don't think the manufacturer did either.

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You did say that you were installing it in opened exterior walls. I can see installing it in place of Tyvek, outside the sheathing but you can't do that from inside.

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Well, I'm gonna skip over the scrapping, and just toss out a couple more cool heat pump technologies in! The 1st is a company a lot of us have been waiting for for years, Hallowell of Maine. They had to get through some patent wars, but basically, they provide an AIR-TO-AIR heat pump that works well in cold regions - as in down to around -30. They set up on a small footprint outside the home, no drilling, so good for small lots. The COP is good (~3) and the price midway between that of a usual ground-source system & the traditional air/air models, say $10,000 all in. For cold states, small'ish lots or other limits on drilling, pretty nice. The tech data & a personal cost/saving calculator are at Hallowell.

The other one is a Japanese air/air HOT WATER heat pump called the EcoCute. Like the Hallowell, the nice thing is you can plunk them down on small lots, no digging, and it draws the heat for your hot water from the air. They've sold MILLIONS of these now in Japan, and have now entered the EU market. Here's the Wiki on the EcoCute.

I just wish we could kick the unit sales on these kinds of things up high enough to rally bring the costs down. We see regular heat pump hardware systems alone costing $8-$10k from companies doing one-off's here, which drives us nuts because we know an order of 300 brings offers off the dock of $2k. this is the kind of place where a serious government-utility effort could really bring people incredible cost savings.

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Thanks, quinn. I think you just changed my mind about going with a geo-thermal system. Why bother when you can get this type of efficiency without tearing up your yard and spending all the extra money to do it? Great innovation - I see it's pretty new and I hadn't heard of it yet. Thanks for bringing it to my attention - you just saved me a few thousand dollars!

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Chase them down for contacts of people who have the systems installed - we're still in a testing phase, as in Quebec, and there's a number of other real-world, commercially-purchased units already installed, so they should have info.

Also, since they've just set up their distributor network, we've heard that in some places, the extra layer is trying to squeeze more bucks out of people (early adopters often being reasonably "well to do.") But if you lean on them a bit, let them know you could help spread the word etc., I can say the price should push back to $10,000. i.e. No matter what the distributor says, it's $10k - and they know it. ;-)

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Hey, I'm one step ahead of you! I've already taken down the info to pass on to my HVAC guy, with the caveat that in return, he'll do me a prop on installing the system if he can hook up with them as a distributor. In return, I'll be the local reference when he's trying to sell to others in the area.

You gotta work all the angles on this stuff.

I'm curious as to where you're located, sounds like it gets wicked cold in your part of the world. Would that be northern Quebec? I'm in Arkansas with the opposite situation - we can get down to zero but the bigger issue is high heat and humidity for 5 months of the year.

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Due to a previous Ice Age mucking about mid-continent, I landed in what turned out to be the world's coldest large city, Winnipeg. 700,000 of us jokers get -40, steady, and I'm not kidding, for 3 or 4 weeks straight, EVERY damn Winter. Worst since I've been here is -57. Ye Gods.

And no, it's NOT that far North. It's just above the Minnesota border. The cold air just comes down along the former bed of Lake Agassiz, and socks us in. Snow on the ground by Halloween, doesn't leave til April.

But as they say, "It's a dry cold." Grrrrrrrrreat.

HELP! ;-)

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If I could set up a grey-water tank, I could use tap water that was on its way out (not sewage) as my "groundwater" without violating city water ordinances, I think.

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My "heat recovery" fiend friends tell me all the time the wastewater stuff is doable, even up here (and with WEEKS below -40, there are issues, I can tell you!) But these maniacs want to squeeze the heat out of everything, Tom - wastewater, vented air, heat off motors, I donno, they even give me figures that show me about precisely how much heat we lose with each flush. But ultimately, it makes sense to me to capture that heat and channel it back - at least to pre-heat water, eh?

My basic "take" - having started as 100% energy efficiency, but recently come to conclude that we need on-site renewables as well - is that we have to keep systems simple, sturdy, and not too complicated to manage. Lovins & co. always liked to show us 38 ways & systems we could stack on each other to maximize gains. Technically, economically, they were often right.

But the full meal deal was almost always impossible to monitor, maintain, manage, especially when you had to look across the standard housing stock, lived in by non-energy wonk people. People treat their houses in weird ways, and have a hell of a lot of priorities beyond squeezing that last penny out of their utility bill. Hell, up here we have incredible problems with houses built tight, changing ownership, and then 3 bedroom places holding 12-14 people seasonally, plus meat they've hunted (e.g. with a 10% Aboriginal population.) So insane moisture problems.

Which is constantly pushing us back toward making our efficiency measures simple, sturdy, easy to manage - and then, tapping into local heat/cooling for whatever needs we have left. Whether from the air, water, ground, waste heat, biomass.

So.... if you do wastewater and such, and you're happy to experiment & tinker, go for it. But if your goal is to do something that can be spread & replicated, see if you can hammer on the simplicity, willya? I'm the office test-case on this stuff... the guy who can think it through, calculate it, pitch it, but who can't fix an eavestrough!

"Let Mikey Eat It" has become "Let Quinn Install It!" ;-)

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The challenge is to find improvements that are effective as increments, not needing total overhaul. A version of that would be an add-on water jacket for window air conditioners, to use that grey water for at least summer heat sink. We only use air as the heat sink because it's convenient.

Another incremental improvement I've pushed is house-sized battery sets. In many areas, switching to hourly electricity pricing yields a large differential, with overnight costs of a few cents per Kwhr as opposed to fifty cents peak. So one would simply buy overnight power and use it during peak usage hours in daytime. Even using lead-acid standard batteries it would pay off in a year or two, and you would benefit for a few years until replacement time. This lowers carbon footprint, too, since off-peak electricity is typically the most efficiently generated.

My favorite efficency boost idea is from WOWEnergies of Texas. They install secondary and tertiary boilers in factory smokestacks. This captures the wasted heat energy, and simultaneously lowers exhaust temps enough so that nasty metals simply rain out. The company estimates about 200 gigawatts of wasted energy going up in smoke. Kind of dwarfs McCain's 45 nuclear plants, which would be worth maybe 75-100 Gw total.

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One I get amused looking forward to is when we have plug-in hybrids. These batteries are nice lithium-ion sets, well-packaged & protected, serious battery management systems, etc. You're likely to see 5-25 kwh packages to begin with. The thing is, the car companies want these batteries to work for years, many 000's of cycles, but they also want them to hold 90% of their capacity after 10 years.

Anyway, when they're retired.... they'll still hold 80%+ of their original 5-25 kwh's. Right now, the economics of plug-in's assume the batteries have zero value at the end of their life. My friends just wanna know if they can tuck 'em in the house for solar.

And yes, you're bang on with improvements as increments. When you get a CHANCE to do a major overhaul, great. But a lot of people go 10-20-30 years without that major overhaul. So incremental is all you get.

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Wow, that's pretty great technology. Thanks for the links.

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I realize that I wouldn't comment here again, but now that your post has moved off the recommended list I thought I'd post this link to a good article on heat loss. What you will learn from the article is that radiation is not a mode of heat transfer one needs to be concerned with when saving energy use in one's home.

I suggest you read it because it is obvious from your post that you don't understand heat flow and heat loss.

Again, I'm not trying to resurrect and argument, I'm just trying to help. Take it or leave it.

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