Josh Marshall's 8/7 TPM Comments on Israel
Today Josh posted his thoughts on Israel, anti-semitism, and the commentary here on TPM Cafe about this subject. Here is the link
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/009318.php
After I came down from the ceiling, I tried to reflect on Josh's actual words. I know he has been critical of many of Israel's political and military tactics but he continues to support an amorphous Israel. He has the same problem many Israeli supporters have, both in Israel and in the US. They simply do not have the guts to define their concept of Israel's borders.
It is shocking to me that they support a country that absolutely refuses to set it's borders, simply saying we will take as much as we can get away with. I know with working with my sister when she moved from Haifa to Ariel in 1996, that the political support from the Likud was to take the land and hold it forever. I remember being in her living room when the local Likud representative outlined the financial support her family would receive, she asked a perceptive question. Would Israel ever agree to leave the West Bank and force her to move. He answered never and if the Palestinians made a fuss, Israel would simply kill them.
I problem I have as a Jew with strong ties to Israel, I hear stuff that Israel never admits in public. I see the dark underside in that country. That does not deter me from still believing in a strong Jewish homeland in Israel.
So here is my challange to all the Israel supporters out there. How do you define the borders - what are they. Don't provide the crap about "defensible borders" try to be as specific as you can, right down to the streets of Jerusalem that we have all walked dozens of times.





One thing I have always had a real problem with is the lack of any American support for the Palestinians. Usually, there are at least two sides to an issue; with most Americans, you are either For ISRAEL or against ISRAEL. The muslims never seem to be part of the discussion, unless it is to condemn them.
I think that we have a huge tendency in AMerica to shed no tears for Muslim people. It may have to do with policy, with our own imaginations and stereotypes, or even with what we have seen on the news for the last 25 years. We are likely to have the embedded image of shouting, angry and violent mustached men and boys, either throwing rocks at tanks, blowing up cars, or burning the American flag.
9/11 only made this impression worse, and made it an almost patriotic thing to suspect Muslims of planning violent acts.
The sad and unfortunate thing is that Muslims are people too, and we treat them much as whites treated blacks during Jim Crow. Many muslims are peaceful and God-fearing, perhaps moreso than many of us Christians are. They have lived under a different society, face different obstacles, and suffer death and destruction more in silence than we would here in America. Many Jews and Christians believe that they are God's chosen people; but some Arabs could just as easily believe that they are God's FORGOTTEN people.
Many of them simply do not want to westernize; they understandably want the centuries old traditional world (centered around God's law) to continue. For them, anyone who will fight their battles is welcomed, even if it can only be a terrorist. They see the West and Globalization as unfair, and imposed upon them. They feel as the Kiowa and the Sioux once did in this country. That is a cause that I can't help but be just the slightest bit sympathetic with.
We don't identify with them, we do not feel moved. We just feel sickened, and want it all to go away.
Getting justice for 9/11 is very important to me. Terrorism must be stopped, and innocent civilians should not be targets. But if one of the underlying causes of 9/11 was turning a blind eye to the struggles of the muslim world, perhaps we should open our hearts a bit, rather than just seek a taste of revenge with every islamic death on TV.
Israel may be an ally, but the other side should be considered in our hearts and minds too. To think that all muslims hate America, love Osama Bin Laden, are terrorists, and just want to blow things up is just 21st century racism.
August 7, 2006 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Joe - I agree with you and it is a point I have mentioned in other postings including specific examples.
August 7, 2006 2:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think Josh spoke of confusion only when he was referring to the subtext of the vitriolic messages he has received and how to respond to them. He pretty clearly states the reason why he doesn't post on the kind of specifics you are writing about:
Emphasis is mine. The cognitive dissonance caused by having to intellectually deal with both policy issues and the emotional and ofttimes vitriolic attacks on Israel that have nothing to do with solutions to the present problem but with longstanding dislike of Israel, makes it difficult to write about this -- at least that is my take on what Josh is saying -- not that he doesn't have a position on these issues.
August 7, 2006 10:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is pretty much the take I had on reading Josh's comments as well.
jdledell, how would you square your charge that Josh simply lacks the guts "to define their concept of Israel's borders" with Josh noting in his post that he has been highly critical of Israel's settlements, among other, policies, particularly since 1996? I would think that such criticisms give some indication of Josh's views on appropriate borders. And he wrote not long before the recent outbreak of hostilities that he believes Israel should withdraw completely from the settlements (sorry, cannot find that link).
So I don't understand the source of your wrath at him on this point. Perhaps you can elaborate a bit on this?
August 7, 2006 11:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes Josh has been highly critical of settlement activity but he leaves it at that. Someone, sometime and somehow MUST come up with a specific list of settlements that live or die and why. Many people in Israel are critical of settlement activity but when you mention a specific settlement the hue and cry goes up - BUT NOT THAT ONE. As a result even the illegal settlements don't get shut down - they just continue to grow. Josh could be an important voice to add to the debate in Israel and the US on the settlement question. If he really believes that settlement activity is bad for Israel why doesn't he come right out and say - stop moving the Gaza settlers into the Golan Heights where someday there has to be a peace agreement with Syria.
August 7, 2006 2:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I thought Josh had advocated Israel getting out of all of the settlements. That seemed specific enough to me at the time.
Is there serious controversy in Israel over what is, and what is not, a "settlement" in the West Bank and Gaza?
August 7, 2006 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
There is no agreement in Israel whatsoever on what constitutes a legitimate settlement. For example Ariel is a settlement north of Jerusalem with about 28000 people and it cuts deep into the West Bank. Ma'ale Adumin is almost straight east of Jerusalem with about 30000 people that Israel is trying to link up with Jerusalem. They are also trying to keep some of the smaller settlements surrounding Jerusalem. The point being, even in Camp David and Taba Israel was insisting on keeping these settlements. These settlements make travel and commerce between Palestinian towns much longer and more difficult because they would have to circle all the way out to Jericho to traverse north to south. Most scenerios have Israel maintaining their military control of the Jordan Valley which makes ANY trip in the West Bank problamatic for Palestinians. In addition, many Israelis do not want to give up Hebron for religious reasons. I believe Josh is like most Israeli supporters in that when they say get out of all the settlements they NEVER mean Ariel or Ma'ale Adumin.
August 7, 2006 4:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for this additional information.
When you write that "I believe Josh is like most Israeli supporters in that when they say get out of all the settlements they NEVER mean Ariel or Ma'ale Adumin" do you have any evidence to support that assertion?
Instead of making such an assertion, why don't you simply ask him what he thinks on this specific point?
August 7, 2006 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not really mad at Josh, just disappointed. He is symptomatic of most pundits and commentators on Israel - full of generalistic defenses of Israel. Perhaps he is scared he might lose part of TPM's audience if he came out with specifics.
Anti-semitism is not prevelent on the East Coast where I live now but I was born and raised in a town in Minnesota where we were the only Jews for many, many miles. I understand both overt and subliminal anti-semitism. Yet in some of the postings recently Josh would jump in with his hasty defenses of Israel and many of us had the distinct feeling of being accused of anti-semitism for any critical comments of Israel, even if we were Jewish.
Again, it was Josh's generalizations on anti-semistism that mirrored his comments on the Israeli situation. He and others refused to name names or quote specific passages that they felt were anti-semetic. Unfortunately, many of us were painted with the broad brush of evilness.
Frankly, I'm tired of the lack of personal courage that is exhibed by pundits on this issue. Do they believe that Israel should return to the 67 borders and close the settlements including such political hot potato's as Ma'ale Adumin and Ariel, or not. There are dozens of these questions that need to be answered if Israel is ever going to have peace. Sooner or later Israeli politicians and their supporters in the US are going to have to put themselves on the line and tell the world where they stand.
I regularly speak at my temple about Israel and my comments are very pointed. I listen to the boos and have lost many friends with my critical positions on Israel. While people may boo my recommendations for a peaceful Israel (I have no monopoly on wisdom) If one believes in Israel then I think it is an important responsibility to add one's voice with SPECIFICS - not just mealy mouth words of support.
August 7, 2006 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, the Rabbi in our northern Virginia (suburban DC) Temple created quite a stir about 3 Yom Kippurs ago with a sermon suggesting that it might be appropriate to view both the vast majority of Palestinians and the vast majority of Israelis as victims in the present circumstances.
The vast majority of congregants appear to have agreed with her. But the minority who did not sure was vocal. Personally I found that sentiment unobjectionable, but not especially helpful, either.
August 7, 2006 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is this article what you mean by the dark side? How real is this Israeli apartheid described here. Is it true there are different levels of citizenship as stated? I was shocked to read this. An excerpt:
August 7, 2006 3:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
To a degree what he says is true about Israel. Officially, there is no descrimination but "some residents are more equal than others".
August 7, 2006 4:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well now your wish is granted, jdledell. Josh has posted his opinion on your question. I don't think it was fear of losing readers or anything like that which kept him from posting -- I think he explained it very well in his prior post -- that he had to take some time to separate the dual cognitions going on when it comes to this issue. I'm glad he did.
August 7, 2006 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmmm,
Is that like how "officially", the Germans denied the existence of concentration camps?
Is that like how 'officially' southern politicians in America denied their were lynchings during the same period of Nazism.?
How can Jewish Israeli's who were persecuted blithely say 'some residents are more equal than others'?
August 7, 2006 5:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
As nightprowlkitty noted, Josh has posted an elaboration of his views at: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/009324.php
Does this address--or fuel--your concern?
August 7, 2006 6:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Josh's use of the term "Green Line" is the exact term I was looking for. Kudo's for Josh! With the Green Line as a basis, I believe negotiations can be successful and the adjustments Israel needs in Jersualem would be granted. This is the kind of realism that will finally allow Israel to live in peace forever.
August 8, 2006 5:06 AM | Reply | Permalink