« tpm cafe versus red state | jason everett miller's Blog | will the real wizard of oz please stand up »
do as I say, not as I do
As far as I can tell, this is the only verbiage with regards to a comment policy at TPM. This was pretty much the way conversations played out for the better part of my first year blogging at this site. Many heated discussions but certainly nothing personal beyond some rude language now and then or consistent inability to grasp a point no matter how many ways it is explained on both sides of issues.
There was certainly nothing to indicate that a purely political discussion would move from the virtual to the real world and follow me home like a rabid lost puppy.
This pretty much represents the last straw for me after months of trying to help TPM develop a culture of self moderation against classically trollish behavior, but I figured I would see if Josh was interested in actually enforcing the comment policy I linked to before I permanently take my leave. This place is becoming a bit too partisan (and personal) to blog as myself any longer, though it wasn't always that way and certainly doesn't need to keep moving in that direction.
It's been enlightening to see just how screwed up this country is when even the winners can't be counted on to be civil and magnanimous.
It's been sad to discover that someone who agrees with most of the underlying goals of classic American progressivism, just through a slightly different lens and solution set, could be consistently attacked as a "typical republican" with nary a peep from the site's moderates. Then to be lectured on how the moderates in the GOP are somehow responsible for their craziest voices by the loudest most obnoxious bloggers at TPM is just icing on a cake that has long gone stale.
The irony no longer outweighs the hypocrisy and the political naivete is no longer amusing, just a complete waste of time in an already busy schedule. I won't be posting any sort of weepy good-bye or go to the trouble of erasing my entries if I decide to go. I'll just start writing somewhere that actually enforces its own rules because I am running the show. I'll also be leaving this as an electronic trail should the homicide detectives need a place to start if one of his reasons is to stalk and kill conservative bloggers.
Namaste.
There was certainly nothing to indicate that a purely political discussion would move from the virtual to the real world and follow me home like a rabid lost puppy.
This pretty much represents the last straw for me after months of trying to help TPM develop a culture of self moderation against classically trollish behavior, but I figured I would see if Josh was interested in actually enforcing the comment policy I linked to before I permanently take my leave. This place is becoming a bit too partisan (and personal) to blog as myself any longer, though it wasn't always that way and certainly doesn't need to keep moving in that direction.
It's been enlightening to see just how screwed up this country is when even the winners can't be counted on to be civil and magnanimous.
It's been sad to discover that someone who agrees with most of the underlying goals of classic American progressivism, just through a slightly different lens and solution set, could be consistently attacked as a "typical republican" with nary a peep from the site's moderates. Then to be lectured on how the moderates in the GOP are somehow responsible for their craziest voices by the loudest most obnoxious bloggers at TPM is just icing on a cake that has long gone stale.
The irony no longer outweighs the hypocrisy and the political naivete is no longer amusing, just a complete waste of time in an already busy schedule. I won't be posting any sort of weepy good-bye or go to the trouble of erasing my entries if I decide to go. I'll just start writing somewhere that actually enforces its own rules because I am running the show. I'll also be leaving this as an electronic trail should the homicide detectives need a place to start if one of his reasons is to stalk and kill conservative bloggers.
Namaste.
Advertisement
You're an ipod accessory, who would have guessed?
September 27, 2009 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wrong link. It's been fixed.
September 27, 2009 5:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
You'll be missed, Jason.
September 27, 2009 4:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, Curt. I learned a lot this last year and a half about partisan politics in America and why it continues to derail to our national efforts.
Calls for self moderation, ironically enough, are consistently shouted down. Not sure what could get the site's original voice back except TPM enforcing their stated rules.
Much of the charm of this site has left these last few months and it becomes increasingly difficult to justify the diminishing returns on my investment of time.
September 27, 2009 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am confused.
You have had a lot interchanges with people who have taken your point of view seriously on this site. I have learned a lot from those interchanges. I think you did too.
The site is only the people who check the site out. If we all bore you now, we bore you. Complaining how the site is run feels like a throw away middle finger as your car speeds away.
I will miss you. I don't know any other self-identified conservatives who appreciate Howard Zinn.
Fare forward.
September 27, 2009 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
It less about being bored by those who challenge me and who I learn from as it is about the majority of my most recent exchanges having gone from the electronically absurd to my actual front door.
That was when things went a step too far for my tastes and hinted at a trend that could become dangerous left unchecked. At least as far as I am concerned, having chosen to blog under my own name.
I am not running off just yet, but I really need to know if Josh is serious about having a site that accepts all points of view and enforces that policy or if it is simply the wild west.
If it is the later, my time will be better spent doing my own thing.
September 27, 2009 5:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
As I focus on the particular interchange involved (as shown in your link), I have to say that it would have freaked me out if it had happened to me.
It is confusing when you qualify that incident as an integral component of your tpm experience.
But whatever. Staying focused on what alarmed you; I agree. That is alarming.
September 27, 2009 6:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks foe taking another look, moat. It is only the utter disconnect from my typical experience here that caused me to seriously reconsider the association.
September 27, 2009 6:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jason. I am in agreement with moat as he wrote above. That exchange on the linked blog would have completely freaked me out and I cannot think anything other that it is a breach of comment policy, not to mention farking creepy. I do not read the blogger in question, otherwise I most likely would have reported it as abuse two days ago because it was clearly over the line, as it was before when they posted the phone number of another blogger in a comment.
That's just going too far.
Now, it's going too far, twice.
If you feel the need to go elsewhere, then you must. I do read what you post, Jason...as evidence me reading and responding to this post.
Good luck however you choose to proceed. Peace.
September 27, 2009 8:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Flowerchild - it's too bad that a few bad apples can spoil things.
I think Jason (and I) should have just ignored the guy. After reading things like this I should have learned my lesson - http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/fgdesign/2009/09/a-certain-style-of-post.php?ref=reccafe
But somewhy we tried to have a debate.
I think tonight I will be departing as well.
September 27, 2009 8:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for stopping by, flowerchild. You have certainly been one of the people I enjoyed discussing things with and learning from. We haven't always agreed, but we have always been civil.
For the most part. :O)
I am certainly going to be more scarce around here given the fact that my life is about to get busier due to some new opportunities, but also due to the lack of reasonable debate these last few months and my desire to create a new kind of political advocacy site.
I am sure I won't be totally done with TPM in the near future given the voices I have come to following around here.
September 27, 2009 10:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Front door? What happened? Did "igotmyreasons" come knocking?
September 27, 2009 8:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Read the exchange I linked to. He might as well have knocked on my front door. My wife thinks as much that's for sure.
September 27, 2009 9:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry, but there is nothing less disingenuous than a GBCW that basically says I don't like this place, nobody likes what I say and I'm taking my higher intellect out of here.
Good grief If you truly believe that political discourse has become to polarizing than fight to change the tone. Running away solves nothing.
If you going to leave just do so. Doing so with a dairy solves nothing nor does it improve anything.
September 27, 2009 5:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did you follow the link?
Would you feel comfortable being somewhere blogging as yourself meant someone following you home and talking about the sign in your front yard?
That wouldn't make you the least bit nervous?
This has nothing to do with disagreements with this point or that. I enjoy a spirited debate as much as the next guy. What I can't tolerate is incessant personal attacks that masquerade as political thought.
I kind of thought you felt the same way given the mostly logical and measured nature of your comments, but I guess I was wrong about that as well.
September 27, 2009 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jsfox - if you tried to have a debate with this person, I don't think you'd feel any differently.
We tried to debate it, because I agree that running away or even ignoring it doesn't really solve anything.
I'd like to change this guy's tone, but not sure how we can do it. He doesn't seem to mind it. http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/fgdesign/2009/09/a-certain-style-of-post.php?ref=reccafe
September 27, 2009 8:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
JEM,
Although I often thought you were a moron, I never considered you an unthinking moron. However misguided, your points were always considered. I understand your wish to move on. Enjoy your new home.
September 27, 2009 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Um, thanks.
September 27, 2009 5:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
You just made my day. Thoughtful, backhanded and sincere all at the same time. I like.
September 28, 2009 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Best goodbye ever!
September 28, 2009 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Reading comprehension still not your thing? I never said I was leaving, as much as your gang would love to see that happen.
I said if I decide to leave, it won't be accompanied by any sort of weepy good bye email. More of that context and nuance you all love to hate.
Not sure what happened to you these last few months, but I hope it all works out.
September 29, 2009 6:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can't even keep your shit straight within the same thread, eh?
This has simply gotta be the longest goodbye ever, but well worth it. Now you're threatening that it is all a joke? That would be too cruel, jason.
Why not take the silly drama queen act someplace that might appreciate it, like maybe a cotillion someplace or you might want to try the back room at the Fluff & Dry Salon and Day Spa.
I agree with Quinn. Your blog premise regarding the invasion of privacy and the seemingly stalking behavior of IGMR (or whatever he calls himself) is way out of bounds and actually caused me to share in your outrage.
But this nailed-to-the-cross-dying-victim-that-will-not-die routine is almost comical. Sheesh!
September 29, 2009 8:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
That you interpreted my blog as some sort of long good bye doesn't make it the truth, just shows that you provide criticisms for things I don't actually write. I used this incident to highlight a trend of increasing vitriol from people like Fred and yourself.
All the usual suspects have done it on this thread as well.
Based on the advice of people at TPM I actually respect, I will not be participating in flame wars started by you and the Band of Brawlers any longer. The entertainment value from teaching you guys some basic manners has long since vanished.
Good luck with your future endeavors.
September 29, 2009 8:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're going to be blogging at an MP3 accessories store? That's quite a genre jump!
So, are Bose speakers *really* worth all that dough?
September 27, 2009 5:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, put in the wrong URL.
I will be spending my time getting a blogging/advocacy/social networking site up and running that affords people the chance to really be themselves because there will be no anonymity to protect ideologues from the consequences of their words.
I think a lack of personal responsibility for one's words is perhaps the most damaging feature of the burgeoning political movement online.
September 27, 2009 5:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I figured it was a bum link ... but couldn't resist :-)
Good luck with your new project - I'll check it out when you're up and rolling. But you realize using real names won't change a damn thing on the internet, right? If I choose to be a dick, do you think it matters if I call myself Kent or KGB999? Nope, I'll call you a fuckhead either way.
IMO it's nice to have a site where the administrators accept the give and take and don't ban users every time there is an interpersonal squabble. People are pretty emotionally invested in the opinions they hold, sometimes that comes out in over-the top reactions. So in that regard, I'd rather see you go than have Josh fuck up the site because a multi-thread bitchfest between you and a couple other users got out of hand ... you could have extracted yourself from that at any point you wanted by simply letting it go. That said, the google maps thing was WAY out of line and I lost a lot of respect for the poster who did it ... you are totally right to flog the asshole repeatedly for that kind of shit, I get the impression they are a total noob at this.
One other thought: if someone resents being called a troll - they aren't really a troll. The point of trolling is lulz. We haven't had a legit troll in these parts for some time.
September 27, 2009 7:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess my main point was that this particular exchange stepped way past a line for me.
It isn't about the free-flow of ideas. It is about upholding a minimum standard as set forth by the site's administrators. That standard seems to be largely irrelevant. I think that chasing off moderates of any stripe sends a bad precedent for a site that pretends to be objective.
I may or may not stick around depending on the amount of time I spend doing other things and the general tone of the site.
September 27, 2009 9:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're going to put the TV sitcom Cheers! into action - a place where everybody knows your name.
That makes everything one says accountable to a real person. It would also be a point of enlightenment for someone struggling to understand where the middle ground is between the Partys that controls the political structure and the public who elects them. It would be a personal commitment to share and learn. I guess I need to get my passport picture digitized for my icon.
September 28, 2009 5:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, B, I don't necessarily think everyone needs to shed their anonymity, but for some it is a blessing of civility.
It certainly was for me as I could be every bit as rude and crude as the people I critique for the same behavior now when I wore a "face" not my own. I like the Cheers! analogy, but for less about people knowing our names as it is about how quickly one might get punched for telling someone to fuck themselves.
You can only get away with that sort of aggression anonymously online or if you happen to be the vice president.
September 28, 2009 6:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jason...I'm just back from a week long vacation and tried to do a cursory reconstruction of what occurred here, but time is not my friend right now. I don't pretend to know EXACTLY what has occurred, but I believe my comments would be the same, regardless...
You know how much I admire you and what you are trying to do...My suggestion? Keep doing what you are doing and ignore the people that get to you. If someone you don't want to engage with comes on to your posts, just act like they aren't there...And stay off of theirs...You are right, trying to change their minds is a waste of your time, but there are many here who can be swayed, at least a little. If we allow the moderate voice to be squelched, on either side of the aisle, the country will be the worse off for it. You are an extremely valuable voice here. Please don't let "the few" make you feel like you are wasting your time, or like you are not appreciated.
None of us are going to change the world with our words here, but it is a meeting place for people who care, not just the far left. It is important that we try to stay engaged civilly with each other. If we can't, here, what are the chances for the bigger country? Don't give up...I am Stillidealistic. We can do this.
September 28, 2009 1:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, stilli. I am actually getting ready to start a new job that will require a ton of time and energy, but I doubt I will ever quit this place entirely.
Strong opinions I can admire, even if I don't agree. It's when invective is offered instead of information that my patience ends and has become distressingly frequent for me.
I am heartened by seemingly intractable voices taking on softer tones, even if they are no less certain in their opinions. I am hopeful that I can find a lexicon that enables me to offer critiques without offering offense.
I may be a bit more scarce, but doubt I will disapper for good.
September 28, 2009 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I had come to believe the pleas for more civil behavior were working for some, though I have seen the occasional "Get the F off my blog." I usually get off. There are a couple posters that annoy me because they can't be critiqued at all without going Vesuvius, and they can form alliances with others I think know better, seemingly based on "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." I can't like that, either.
Maybe I'm being obtuse on purpose, but I can't get your reference to homicide detectives. I hope that bitterness leaves you, or you leave it. Good travels, Jason.
September 27, 2009 5:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that they are working for some and perhaps that trend will continue, though it has not really been all that apparent to me or those who fall outside the liberal mainstream when it comes to progressive political activism.
The homicide detective reference was due to the fact that a blogger on this site used my personal information to find my actual house and then comment on the sign in my front yard.
It has nothing to do with bitterness, though I will confess to reading a lot of thrillers. It was meant to be morbidly funny for anyone who understood the essentially disturbing nature of the conversation I linked to at the beginning of this post.
For what is worth, I have found most of our discussions to be warm and friendly, even when we disagreed on this or that particular issue.
September 27, 2009 5:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jeezzz. Not another jason meta thread. Definitely not rec'ed. Please please please if you want to post on meta threads don't rec them. Is that really what we want on the front page as an example of what the cafe is about?
Once again jason. You give as good as you get. You provoke as often as you are provoked. The I'm nice and they're so nasty line just doesn't fly imo.
I remember way back when you changed your avatar, claimed you were turning over a new leaf, and apologized to me for being nasty to me. Well I never complained about it and while I appreciated the apology I just let it pass to see if you meant it. IMO you didn't. You just moved from outright aggressive behavior to passive aggressive. And you weren't even able to stick with that.
People come and go here all the time. That's life. Just don't play the victim cause I don't buy it.
September 27, 2009 5:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you had followed the link you would have understood why this time such asocial behavior crossed a fundamental line.
This isn't a meta post. It is a serious inquiry as to the nature of the site the people who come here want to be a part of. As far as I can tell recently, TPM is simply a place to build bonfires and preach to the already converted.
I always thought you had more intellectual integrity and curiosity than that, but it appears I was wrong.
September 27, 2009 6:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you've got a problem with a blogger and you feel they've crossed the line report them and let management handle it. What we surely don't need is another meta thread from you about it.
I'll say it one more time and than I'm done because its been said often by others and you just don't see it. Its not about politics. Its not because you're a republican. Its your passive aggressive style that insults below the table subtlely. That's how you provoke. Or someone makes an insult and you decide they "started" it which gives you the right to insult them back, sometimes with more venom then was first directed. That's how you give as good as you get or sometimes you give even "better" than you get.
On the top layer you're calling for more civility, but on the deeper level your actions belie your words. On a deeper level you just can't see you're actively involved in lessening the civility here. You jump at the chance to get involved in the blogs that are likely to turn vitriolic. Sometimes you spark some flames, other times you just toss fuel on the fires others started. But you just don't see your part in the flame wars. That's what's know as a blind spot. We all have them.
September 27, 2009 7:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am more than happy to take responsibility for every word I have written, which is more than the Peanut Gallery can say when faced with the same.
You are free to pass whatever judgment you decide is most appropriate, but I stand behind everything I write with my real identity.
Even those words I would rather disown.
September 27, 2009 10:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
As proud as you are that you use your real name I couldn't care less. You're just another stranger with a screen name to me. All I care about is what you post. Just as I don't care that Paine used Vox Populi or Hamilton, Madison, and Jay wrote as Publius. What matters is what they wrote. In past eras it was very common for political articles to be signed with pseudonyms. Using a "real name" wouldn't have impressed me then and doesn't impress me now.
September 28, 2009 2:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
It is about being accountable for one's words, regardless of the name you use.
I notice that you can be nasty as you want to be at the drop of a hat and that is because you don't post as yourself. There are no consequences for your words when don't post as yourself.
Without fail, the people around with the most interesting things to say post as themselves. They also tend toward a more mature and invective free style that I enjoy.
I left high school back in the 80s, though many around here apparently never did and they all post anonymously. Circumstantial evidence to be sure, but the trend is clear to me.
September 28, 2009 6:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
PS: Thomas Paine spent time in a French prison for his words. His most influential works were published under his name.
People of the day discussed those words face-to-face and were willing to get popped in the nose if they got out of line.
This Cafe is filled with pseudo-revolutionaries at best.
September 28, 2009 6:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Please try reading this exchange and tell me if you still think Jason was, in your words, "giving as good as he was getting"
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/fgdesign/2009/09/more-right-wing-violence-censu.php
September 27, 2009 8:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Boo fucking hoo. Whatta bunch of WATBs.
Please, please, please start your own blog, where you and Apologist for Mass Murder Bill can lament the inability of liberals to understand that Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh really have no influence on the political debate, and Jim DeMint and Sarah Palin are no more irresposible in their policies and their rhetoric than Charles Schumer and Howard Dean.
You guys took on IGMR and you got your asses kicked. It happens. Now go away.
September 27, 2009 9:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is a perfect example of what I am talking about. You are incapable of a rational and logical discussion about anything.
I honestly didn't think that mentioning the total number of people who are murdered each year as a way of providing context to "increased" far right violence.
Fred Gates was schooled quite soundly, in fact, and the only way he could win was by following me the real world. I didn't go in there looking to school him though.
He "fought" back against demons of his own making. He admitted to me that he goes for the jugular given the slightest critique, so this pose of innocence isn't fooling any one.
Nor is your habit of responding to other people as a means of avoiding confrontation with me directly, hoping you could drop your little turdlettes without comment.
Nice try.
September 28, 2009 6:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Nor is your habit of responding to other people as a means of avoiding confrontation with me directly,"
I engage you directly all the time, you liar. You can't even argue about the simplest, most verifiable things honestly, yet we're supposed to take your opinions on larger political issues seriously?
When, when, WHEN will you leave already? Oh that's right, this was all just a temper tantrum because Jason's widdle feelings were hurt, and the poor baby needed some attention. I forgot you have the emotional maturity (not to mention the intellectual capacity) of a four-year-old. What a fucking loser.
September 28, 2009 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
The irony in this comment is amazing in its total lack of self awareness. I will be choosing not to respond vitriol like this any longer. Cheers.
September 28, 2009 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
What a joke! Stop! Please! You're killin me with this crap! LMFAO!
September 28, 2009 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've been posting here since the beginning of the primary and was lurking for a couple of years before that.
Tell you what. Why don't you form a committee and do a statistical analysis of Jason's comments for the last year. Rank them and the comments of those he fights with by frequency and degree of vitriol. Keep a count of the times he "started" the flames and the times other people "started" it.
Until you get back to me with that report I'll go with my sense as a fairly regular somewhat long time reader and poster that Jason, on average, over the last year provoked as often as he was provoked and gave as good as he got.
September 27, 2009 9:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, please go do such an analysis, dear TPM reader.
Let's find out once and for all who is more of an ass - the guy who posts as himself or the panoply of anonymous partisans who love nothing better than to pile on a republicans.
I am quite confident the record will be in my favor as to who leaves an initial comment meant to inflame rather than inform.
September 27, 2009 10:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's silly. I just feel like you made your original comment without reading the exchange that he was referring to.
September 27, 2009 10:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
The exchange he was referring to or the one you referred to? I skipped both at the time as soon as it was clear it was another flame war that jason all too often gets into, with a dozen or so people here. But if I post on a thread I read everything and check all links on that thread before posting. I'm thorough that way.
Its obviously wrong to search out someones address and post about it to the person in a thread. A blog post about it is superfluous. Report the guy and if management doesn't act maybe there's cause to make a blog bringing it to the attention of the general readership.
But that's not what this blog is. Its an attempt to take that action and use it to define jason's interaction here for the last months, the "last straw" "of trying to help TPM develop a culture of self moderation against classically trollish behavior."
As far as I'm concerned jason is an example of that classically trollish behavior. It was inevitable that eventually the flame wars he provokes or is so easily and quickly provoked into would come to a bad end such as this eventually. Being a goad as jason so often is doesn't excuse Igot searching and posting about his address. But having at long last found someone to fight with that clearly crossed the line isn't proof that he's the victim in all the other encounters he's had with people or that its the general nature of the site rather than the general nature of the interactions that jason consistently gets involved in.
Yay, another poor me jason meta thread. Lets rec this onto the front page and make the cafe and all of us look like trivial fools once again.
September 28, 2009 1:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
This comment is one more example of the real trolls around here and why they will drive off every voice that doesn't fall into line with their rather limited and bombastic view of reality.
Hope Josh loves the super-duper liberal heaven he will create by failing to enforce his policies or for failing to create a culture willing enforce the rules for him.
You are just a disappointment after being mildly entertaining to talk with during the primaries.
September 28, 2009 6:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, Jason. Oceankat is spot on. Your love for the dra-meta knows no bounds. And your relentless pursuit of opportunities to portray the victim are exhausting.
September 28, 2009 9:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are quick to pile wood on any bonfire you stumble across, so forgive me if I consider the source on this one and dismiss it accordingly.
September 28, 2009 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
In answer to your question, I meant either one.
Whenever conservatives write something on TPM it's "trolling" but liberals are allowed to say anything they want?
Based on what I've read, more often than not it's the left on here that resorts to phrases such as STFU or SMD. Or even just telling someone they're a racist, troll, stupid, apologist for mass murderers or anything else you can dream up.
September 28, 2009 7:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
If there's 3 conservatives here and one is a troll that's 33%. If there are 100 liberals and 5 are trolls that's 5%. When they get together for a flame war it will be 5 to 1. Its an inevitable result of disproportional numbers.
The same thing happened during the primaries here with the disproportionate numbers of Obama supporters. Even though only a small % were nasty the tiny number of Hillary supporters were barraged with nasty attacks. The opposite happened on Hillary dominated sites.
I liked this site so as one of the few Hillary supporters I endured it and didn't move to a Hillary site. I just tried to ignore the small group of trolls that attacked anything positive about Hillary or anything critical of Obama and just dialog with the sensible Obama supporters. If you want to hang with a disproportionate liberal group you'll have to do what I did during the primaries.
I identified Igot as a blogger prone to invective almost immediately and never posted on his blogs. Even though I may generally agree with some of his points. I'm not a paragon of virtue and can toss out a nasty comment now and then but I generally don't want to be involved in invective dominated conversations. Its not that hard to stay out of flame wars.
September 28, 2009 10:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
JEM, quote from the one sentence blog:
I am saying that responding to irrational arguments is counterproductive to the democratic party's larger goals. That any response will have unintended consequences in alienating moderate conservatives and independents who are sick of that sort of thing. It may even turn off moderate democrats as well who no more fans of the divisions in this country.
A Party responding to irrationality irritates the moderates, a Party making irrational arguments does not. Good luck with that message.
September 27, 2009 5:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Since the democratic party is the one in charge, the irrational arguments from the right are largely irrelevant except in giving liberals a chance to make their case.
That is what you continue to miss in my critiques of the left's circular firing squad mentality and inability to forge a governing majority out of the president's unprecedented victory last fall.
Good luck with that messaging.
September 27, 2009 6:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama has aa much of a governing majority as any recent President.
As to firing squads, you can turn in your carbine on your way out the door.
September 27, 2009 9:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
He had the beginning of such a majority coming in, but it was promptly smothered by far left hysteria.
September 27, 2009 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are sooo logical -- the Left got busy and orgaznized Tea Parties?
Just what did leftist hysteria smother and how?
You just want us to go along with your thesis that the damaged Republican brand is still respectable despite the fact that a substantial portion of its leadership aid and abet the right wing crazies.
September 27, 2009 11:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Tea Parties were meant to prod an over-reaction by liberals and it worked like a charm. Dr. Pavlov would have been proud.
I have never asked a single person to accept the republican brand. I have said it doesn't matter and spending so much time hooting and hollering around the GOP's self-made bonfire is unbecoming for the party in charge.
It was up to democrats to be the grown-ups and instead I find their surrogates online acting like this high school. That is not a winning strategy in my book, but perhaps your books differ.
September 28, 2009 6:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
That was the theory -- instead the Tea Baggers were shown to consist of gullible voters who believed lies and thugs who carried guns. I doubt that this impressed the American voters very favorably.
It did energize the base -- however, on both sides.
September 28, 2009 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Good luck with cleaning your own house.
September 27, 2009 5:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ditto.
September 27, 2009 6:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Umm, alright then. I guess we'll see you later.
I wish you the best.
Peace.
September 27, 2009 6:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I figured you might at least see the essentially creepy nature of the comments I referenced, but it appears our latest dust-up killed our earlier good will.
Namaste.
September 27, 2009 6:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh no Jason. I see the creepiness. I don't think you are wrong on that. I think IGMR inadvertently crossed a line, I think he is probably harmless but that was definitely creepy.
Truth is I am not convinced you are really going to be gone. I suspect TPM is under your skin and will remain an itch you sometimes must scratch, but hey we shall see.
Regardless, I do genuinely you wish you the best. Despite your occasional swipe at my intellectual capacity I have no animosity towards you whatsoever. I never really felt they were serious just the heat of the moment stuff. Que Sera Sera.
Do whatcha you gotta do. Get on the that Bull and ride!
Godspeed.
September 27, 2009 6:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry for any inadvertent swipe at your intelligence. I certainly think you are very bright and most likely extremely successful. I just thought you lacked the proper perspective to see my position at times.
I suspect you are right. If the environment around here can somehow leave me feeling less bruised, that the community is one that is under my skin. I am certain my wife would agree.
Still, IM4 beckons and I truly think that a lack of anonymity with a non-profit business model will make for a much more robust and politically active site.
Stay tuned!
September 27, 2009 6:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well Do!
P.S. Against my personal recommendation policy I am rec'ing this meta post because it is Yom Kippur and well it just seems appropriate.
September 27, 2009 7:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I could go in many directions in response to this.
First, if someone had interacted with me the way igotmyreasons did I would have reported it as abuse and registered my concern with TPM AND the community perhaps. I already avoid reading igotmyreasons blogs just based on my own intuitive feelings. I did just report abuse to one of his comments that your link led me to and I will register my concern with TPM... on behalf of all users. For something like this, no matter who the person is and whether or not we like or agree with them, I do feel as a community we should support at least a stalker level of boundaries and at least shun that kind of behavior.
Having said that, I have stayed away from and out of a lot of discourse and argument I felt would be of no benefit to me to engage. But I have seen some of your dialogue here and there that I thought was less than appropriate and moving in the direction of cockiness and rudeness that I was not accustomed to reading from you. However I know that others can be just as cocky and rude in tit for tat and it's who did what first... devolving into blech...
Bottom line, if there's nothing of value for you here... by all means move on. I know I have appreciated some of your blogs and I appreciated your willingness to be supportive of our efforts around the health care rally etc. Thanks again for that. Good luck Jason!
September 27, 2009 6:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, synchronicity, thanks for dropping by and for understanding the essential nature of my critique.
I understand the change in my tone these last few months may have seemed jarring for anyone familiar with my history at the site, but it really was in response to increasing inability to take my political stances at face value.
What finally prompted this blog is behavior that has been increasingly aggressive (not to mention creepy and more than a little unhinged) no matter my words or tone.
I find much of value here, but I would rather create something new than to see TPM destroyed by small minds with mediocre writing skills and a chip on their shoulder.
September 27, 2009 6:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Take care. Let me know where you land, and I'll hang out there, too. I personally would rather respond to conversations about how to solve and when to act. I am growing weary of the "look at the right wing freakshow" atmosphere at TPM. Josh is cultivating eyeballs by sensationalizing the right, and it is drawing a crowd of japers.
I know you got upset with it, but I think your approach was perceived as thread-nannying. Far better for you to stake a claim where you know you'll be welcome.
I am going to hang out here for a while, more to try and set up an open-source reading club. Given the tepid response to Fuller, who is probably the thinker most suited to our troubord times, I doubt the success of my endeavor.
C'est la vie.
Good luck.
September 27, 2009 6:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know we got into it a bit with my recent tactical maneuvers, but please rest assured I never took leave of my senses. I was taught to respond to aggressive behavior with aggression. I blame Uncle Sam and my step-dad.
As to where I land next, I may linger here a while longer depending on the response to this blog, but IM4 is likely to be my next endeavor with regards to online political advocacy and blogging. Shoot me your email address and perhaps we can work on it a bit together.
My email is jasoneverettmiller@gmail.com.
Namaste.
September 27, 2009 6:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Zip,
I haven't been able to get by here much lately (the occasional scan or hit and run comment), but I saw your Bucky Fuller link and really thank you for that (took me back to a lecture of his I slept, or should say dreamt, through- a long story). That is a wonderful resource as much as I've been able to read of it. Please continue (given the nature of the short-lived and often buried TPM reader's posts some even repost their blogs). I have no doubt that there are many here who'll join in and share references and conversations about them.
September 28, 2009 7:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jason: there are times when you drive me crazy. (As when you repeatedly say that others are not comprehending what you are saying -- for god's sake, Jason; if you want people to understand you, speak clearly and directly en pointe without digressing into an analysis of he said, she said.)
That said, I think you are important to the TPM dialogue. You are intelligent, motivated by belief and stoic, or at least stubborn, in your willingness to engage, even when it gets ugly.
So I admire you, most of the time.
If someone followed me home, I would be completely spooked. That may actually have happened, on another site, but I was too spooked by the appearance of invasion of privacy to follow up on it.
So I guess what I want to say, in summary, is this: I think you are a sincere person who wants to engage in dialogue, and has some valid points to make for many of us to think about.
So stay. But, please, do all of us a favor by eschewing, from here on, words or phrases like:
"ad hominem attacks"
"if you read what I wrote, you would see.."
"if you were as interested in ____ as you are in ____, you would____."
Etc..
Peace be with you, JEM. No matter what your course.
September 27, 2009 7:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am trying to keep inflammatory phrases in the front of my mind as I comment in order to avoid them as I learn which are triggers.
I will admit that I sometimes use such terms as a response to provocative words directed toward me in the first place, but that is no excuse even though I do it with a purpose in mind. Sometimes the only way to call out an ad hominem attack is by name.
Thanks for the kind words and I will most likely find a way to reflect that which I would see created around here.
September 27, 2009 10:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not that I expect you to hear this as you seem to have successfuly convinced yourself otherwise, but when you say things such as:
And then continue:
This less than four hours following your response to synchronicity and a largely sympathetic comment of hers in this very thread:
You do little to conceal your dis-ingenuousness. While not directed at a specific target, (that would be the 'passive' component of your 'style), your technique is at it's heart very aggressive. Hence the descriptor of your style as passive aggressive. You seem to take pleasure in pulling peoples chains, and this blog seems to be just another example of your need to do that. Who exactly is the quidnunc with a chip on his shoulder? You said to Oceankat in this thread:
Stand by them you may, but that doesn't make them when taken as a whole any less nonsensical.
I don't support what IGMR did, but note that at the same time he did not publish any personal information and seems unlikely to be someone who represents a real threat for the very reason that he let you and the world see that he had such information. He then replied to you that he'd previously ID'd himself to you, so you are free to track him down too. Since then he's changed his user name to what is presumably his real name. I know I've personally told you why I don't use my real name in the past, and it's just because of the potential for stalking, so you can't claim that you weren't forewarned. I know you won't leave as you suggest you will, so get over it. Go ahead and flame on 'Sparky'. This will be my only comment on yet another 'Poor JEM' thread.
September 27, 2009 11:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Recommended comment.
September 28, 2009 1:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
also rec'd
September 28, 2009 3:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your example is much less aggressive than telling someone to STFU or SMD. It's more in line with your jabs like "paranoid schizophrenic".
September 28, 2009 7:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
You push and push and push, then when someone responds in kind, you cry foul. All very predictable and very indicative of rigid ideological thinking.
This site will come to reflect the narrow prejudices of a bunch of people too damn stubborn to change tactics that have proved woefully inadequate to our needs as a country.
I am happy to leave you to your echo chamber where even the mildest critique is met with aggressive intransigence and group think on steroids.
September 28, 2009 8:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
PS: My wife is still freaked out, so spare me the harmless fun justification. There are lines that you folks cross constantly that you would never cross face-to-face.
September 28, 2009 8:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
I hadn't clicked on your third red link. Now I have, and I am also creeped out. That is a blogger I had been requested to Not Visit; one thread equating all republicans with racists made me comment (smile); it didn't go all that well. A very few are here for attention, not discussion, and to win some indefinable thing. I suppose we all need to check ourselves out continually; some folks have apologized for intemperate remarks on Bad Days. And god knows, we all have had some lately. And Fear Days. And some of us may only have Cranky Days.
September 27, 2009 7:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I came here to discuss politics with curious adults only to find a group of activist naifs on the partisan warpath at every turn.
I know all about bad days and good days and saying things you would have rather not said, but I go out of my way not to use rude and nasty language for no other reason than to provoke a like response.
Maybe it was too much to expect an online environment such as this - where anonymity is both a shield and a weapon - to find a way to discuss politics with a bigger strategy in mind.
September 28, 2009 8:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jason, there are times you bring very good things to the site. Your recent whining is not among them. Not everyone is going to agree with anyone all of the time, and you get no special pass for claiming to be the only dispassionate voice among the mindless partisans. Enjoy your lameout.
September 27, 2009 7:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the enlightening remarks. I'll consider myself lucky to have not crossed your path before this.
Self-policing a site with user-generated content is the only way to maintain any sort of standards of conduct since TPM obviously has no interest or perhaps not enough resources to do the same. I am happy to be called a whiner is it gets a single liberal to change their tactics from domination to persuasion.
If this site wants to resemble a high school cafeteria at lunch that's your business, but I certainly have little reason to stick around when I am mostly presented with caricatures of my opinions no matter how stoic I choose to be in return. Bullies never back down unless you punch back. I am unable to punch back without personal consequences for my words.
Pretty straightforward argument. You find it lame? That is you choice, but drop the pretense that this has anything to do with agreement or disagreement with this or that irrelevant data point. I am more than happy to debate the issues as long as the other person refrains from calling me a cunt.
Not too many people around here take the time to craft arguments that aren't overly personal and confrontational in manner.
September 28, 2009 8:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jason, you and I have had multiple disagreements, and many agreements over the years. You aggravate me recently much more than in the past.
But I completely agree with you on this one. I would be terrified if someone I had an on-line disagreement with ended up describing my house. To me is it a threatening way to behave.
Honestly, if it were me, as a single woman, I would ask TPM to give me identifying information and I would report it to the police. I don't blame you for being upset about this, but this particular thing is not a TPM issue; it is a harassment issue, and considering the state of things now, I would want Fred (igotmyreasons) Gates to find out from the police that he stepped over the line.
If TPM didn't cooperate with that, then that is a different story. This dude did not follow the rules of the site, and so doesn't deserve his information to be protected.
September 27, 2009 8:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that we are able to disagree in a civil manner most time, CVille, but Fred's behavior is merely the end result of a lax policy of enforcement of the rules. While I felt initially threatened since it was so out of left field, after speaking with the man I am convinced he is mostly harmless.
My wife remains unconvinced, but I suspect her fear will fade with time.
I disagree that this isn't a TPM issue. There seems to be decided lack of nuance lately and a willingness to pile on every contrary opinion with reckless abandon. Those sorts of tactics have unintended consequences as moderates in both parties go back to sleep because of the illogical rants from the flanks of both parties.
This isn't about the legitimacy of the underlying message. It is about the tone and tenor with which that message is presented.
September 28, 2009 8:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with C'Ville and your wife. You shouldn't have taken his phone call. It might work out fine in the end but that breach of internet etiquette is a big danger sign, as is researching you on the internet. Not everyone on the net is as sane as they first appear. Actually, I suspect the percentage of incidence of psychological problems is quite higher among us that spend a significant amount of time on the net than it is in the general population. You already risk plenty by using your own name. Think of bigger names and what they do, they will take in tons of hate email without a pause, but someone calling or knocking on the door, it's call the police.
If you happened to so something like sign up for his twitter feed, though, nevermind. By doing that, you told him it was ok to share personal lives. That's one of the things that sucks about the wonderful new world of twitter, facebook, etc. Once someone is a "friend," they can make it very difficult for you to say goodbye.
September 28, 2009 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think Fred is a friend, but I still think taking a call to give him a chance to explain why he crossed that line was relatively harmless given the fact that my contact info is out there for the rest of my life.
If our interaction had been truly bizarre instead of mildly amusing, I would have been quick to call the police as a precaution.
As it is, I am sure Fred has learned a lesson, even if he isn't ready to admit as much. I know that I learned a lesson in how being "clever" can bite me in the ass.
All's well that ends well.
September 28, 2009 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jason,
Sincerely wish you only the best in all your endeavors.
I understand and support your concern about the noted actions of igmr. I agree with Flower and others that after he posted another's phone number(and for many other reasons) that he has violated the 'rules and guidelines' in place here. But, as noted by your link, he has surpassed creepy by this 'I know where you live' reference. Was this to intimidate, threaten or ??? Hopefully TPM will take the appropriate action. ASAP!
Peace and goodwill to you and yours.
September 27, 2009 8:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, Aunt Sam. We don't always agree, but we seem to find a way to be nice about it.
I hope my new venture is able to iron some of the wrinkles of this form of communication, bringing more of the Facebook sense of transparency and community to lend context to what can be heated political discussion.
It may leave time for me to blog here, but given the rest of my changing commitments, I suspect the best I'll be able to manage is cross-posting to IM4.
Peace to you and yours as well. :O)
September 28, 2009 8:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
You certainly are one of a kind. You whine like a little girl about trolls yet you are one of the worst of that sort. You are forever deliberatly baiting and provoking people and hijacking threads and when they finally and inevitably lose patience with your bullshit you melodramatically announce that you are an injured party and make a fake threat not to return.
Here's the definition of troll found at the link you put above:
"The term derives from "trolling", a style of fishing which involves trailing bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The troll posts a message, often in response to an honest question, that is intended to upset, disrupt or simply insult the group.
Usually, it will fail, as the troll rarely bothers to match the tone or style of the group, and usually its ignorance shows."
This is what you do all the friggin time. Your harrassment and pointlessly baiting of IGMR in the same manner you have dcone it to dozens of others is what led him to lose his cool with you. Your sanctimony and self pity are pathetic and totally without justification. So you, the supreme baiter and annoyer of people at the cafe got your feelings hurt and put up a post implying you are not going to be around anymore which is totally disingenuous and done as a way for you to get attention and pity. How pathetic.
I hope you do leave, but I know you won't which is a genuine shame. But I would hope that if you do refuse to make good on your word and end up staying, as you are unfortunately likely to do, that you at least will refrain from now on from your constant monotonous argument about moderates and all that other bullshit you do when people post here. Make the point in your own posts by all means, but lay off doing it contstantly to others. You hijack more threads than anyone I've seen here and it's always the same bullshit.
I have absolutely no sympathy at all for you and pray you disappear into the interntet ether never to be heard from again. You are exactly the problem you whine about. Be gone! Stay gone! But whatever you do, quit hijacking threads with your dumbass "moderate conservative" bullshit.
September 27, 2009 8:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Your sanctimony and self pity are pathetic and totally without justification. So you, the supreme baiter and annoyer of people at the cafe got your feelings hurt and put up a post implying you are not going to be around anymore which is totally disingenuous and done as a way for you to get attention and pity."
"...you at least will refrain from now on from your constant monotonous argument about moderates and all that other bullshit you do when people post here. Make the point in your own posts by all means, but lay off doing it contstantly to others. You hijack more threads than anyone I've seen here and it's always the same bullshit."
I need to second these comments. Exactly right.
September 27, 2009 9:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I need to highlight that Jason has been crying for Josh to ban people as long as I can remember. I'm thinking if he's successful in this one instance, he'll finally consider his work here to have succeeded.
We need to make the internet safe for mindless devotees of a blind, bland bipartisanship. Otherwise, it makes the Baby Jason cry.
September 27, 2009 9:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll be happy to see a single link or blog where I cried for Josh to ban someone. I don't even think Josh should ban Fred. I simply think he should enforce the standards that he wrote.
The rest of your comment is typical and that you find a kindred spirit in oleeb is not a surprise. You are one of the most viscous and ill-informed partisans on TPM.
Good luck with those tactics as they drive all the moderates straight back to the GOP.
September 28, 2009 8:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
More of the same self-serving and revisionist drivel from oleeb. Not much of a surprise here. Do you find it comforting to be so predictable?
September 28, 2009 8:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
If you weren't such an incredibly annoying moron you might be amusing.
September 28, 2009 10:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jason - Using the Report Abuse link, I have reported the reprehensible behavior of the blogger you refer to, as I know you have, and I hope others have as well.
There can be no tolerance for that kind of implied intimidation. I'm familiar with Internet incivility, bad manners, insults, and name-calling, but this goes well beyond those annoyances and is unacceptable.
If TPM acts appropriately, as I think they probably will, you should have no reason to leave, and I hope you won't.
September 27, 2009 9:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fred,
I just noticed that he is now posting under name of Fred Gates.
Hope you share whatever reply is sent to you from TPM about this matter.
Thanks.
September 27, 2009 9:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, I cited both the old and new names in reporting the abuse.
September 27, 2009 9:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fred,
The other Fred only did what he did after a long and unrelenting (and all too typical) instance of being bated by the pathetic "moderate conservative" JEM. He didn't do anything at all other than annoy the twirp who had been haranguing and annoying him relentlessly. And it isn't as though JEM doesn't make a daily habit of doing this very same thing to lots of other folks. The other Fred is not the bad actor here. You've been bambaoozled I'm afraid, into thinking JEM was somehow and innocent and injured party. He wasn't. Not by a very long shot indeed.
September 27, 2009 10:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Whoever did whatever first, second, or third doesn't matter, oleeb. "Fred Gates" fucking called jason. And that was after Fred learned on his own thread that he had freaked out jason's wife!
Enough with trashing jason. Thanks.
September 27, 2009 11:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, gasket. We don't always see eye-to-eye, but it is usually done with a bit more banter than bombast.
September 28, 2009 9:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly correct, oleeb, Jason brought it all on himself. Just like Prof. Gates at Harvard.
Blame the victim. It's the new liberal way.
September 28, 2009 4:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
All anyone needs to do is read the thread in question. I am more than comfortable in letting the record speak for itself.
September 28, 2009 9:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
All anyone need do is read your endlessly annoying hijacking comments and it isn't too surprising that one of those times someone is going to do something to annoy the annoyer. You're a nitwit Jason and you want to be able to harrass at will but not be harrassed. Ask yourself how wise your ongoing pattern of trolling on this site really is.
September 28, 2009 10:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Offering comments outside the group think is harassment? I suspect most people have a different definition for the word and it doesn't include having opinions I am willing to defend.
September 28, 2009 11:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the kind words, Fred. For me, it has been unfortunately become more wide-spread than one single blogger's comments, as odd and confrontational as those were in this particular case. There is a decided lack of civility when it comes to anyone posting here with a more conservative point of view.
All the usual suspects show up to shout down any dissenting opinion using foul mouths and fouler minds. They are barely tolerant of different views from their own party. They are positively rabid when it comes from The Enemy. Much like their counterparts on the right, ironically enough.
I would see a more wide-spread enforcement of the commenting policy as stated or some sort of explanation why it is no longer the standard and then take it down. I came here for adult conversation, not to defend against the slings and arrows of people who treat politics like a contact sport.
September 28, 2009 9:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jason- you responded to this post
Let me clarify, jason believes what he says. The truth that he has problems facing is reality. The hope that moderates will wrest take control of the GOP is far fetched. Despite the intransigent nature of the GOP, it is Democrats who have to temper responses.
The more the public see of the 912ers, the birthers, the higher Obama's approvals go. The GOP has turned the tide on the health care issue, because the GOP scares the public, including independents.
Democrats have to stiffen up and offer a consistent message. The Republicans have given the Democrats a gift by their behavior. The GOP is pushing moderates and independents away. That is the simple truth jason does not face.
Posted by rmrd0000 in reply to a comment from rmrd0000
with this:
The truth that rmrd0000 refuses to see is that even if the crazy ass GOP turn moderates into non-voters for a couple cycles, that doesn't mean the country is going to turn super-duper liberal when the inherent nature of America has long been one of homeostasis leading toward gradual change over decades vide years.
The democratic party will be unable to moderate its message because of its crazy-ass fringe represented by illogical buffoons such as yourself, thus they too will drive moderates out of their party. If the GOP doesn't change, the only possible scenario is a new party emerging for moderate, logic-based Americans to go to and that destination won't be the democratic party.
You continue to confuse the meaning of Obama's election, the percentages of republican vote he picked up in primary elections in open states as well as the 10 to 15 percent of the republican vote he got in the general. The democratic party had the best chance in more than a generation to fashion a governing majority containing republicans, independents and democrats. People like you, the original poster and a handful of other TPM bloggers from the left are busy killing the burgeoning majority in the womb and are settling for 50%+1 tactical warfare instead.
Good luck with that strategy. It has yet to lead to anything worthwhile in this country.
Posted by jason everett miller in reply to a comment from rmrd0000
You turned up the intensity of the discussion, by using the term buffoon. You simply lack the diplomatic skills to be helpful in developing any consensus party. You characterize the Democratic party as "liberal" when it is obviously Centrist. If the Deomocratic Party were liberal the public option would be the foundation of the health care debate.
The crazies on the right have increased the possibility of a public option. I simply don't see the validity of your argument. Predicting future activity is fraught with hazard, but as of right now, I don't see the GOP winning the moderates or independents.
Despite your inability to mount a coherent argument for your plan, and despite your name-calling, Fred Gates (IGMR has now posted a name) did violate the spirit of TPM by using Google Earth.
Posted by rmrd0000
September 27, 2009 9:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
September 27, 2009 9:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Uhhhh ... Small but important correction . . .
This portion of your comment is incorrect:
If the Democratic party was truly liberal the so-called single-payer plan would be the foundation of the health care debate.
Your mileage undoubtedly varies. . .
~OGD~
September 28, 2009 6:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'll be waiting for links to the polls that don't show Obama's numbers plummeting since taking office in January.
Who is he losing? Moderates? Not yet. He losing far-left liberals and far-right ideologues. While the latter may be damaging to the overall conversation, the former will ensure that moderates of both parties start tuning out.
Failure to disengage from partisan warfare simply ensures the dysfunctional system we have now continues.
Had I chosen to don the cloak of a moderate democrat instead of a moderate republican, the only difference in the reception of my ideas would be a decided like of personal invective.
You have used far worse than buffoon with little or no provocation.
September 28, 2009 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
.....Who is he losing? Moderates? Not yet. He losing far-left liberals and far-right ideologues. While the latter may be damaging to the overall conversation, the former will ensure that moderates of both parties start tuning out.
Failure to disengage from partisan warfare simply ensures the dysfunctional system we have now continues.
If Obama is not losing moderates, but is losing he fringe on the right and the left doesn't that give him a support base that is statistically more moderate? I though part of the problem was the fringes. Can you clarify?
September 28, 2009 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I thought that one might be a bit unclear. Sorry about that. I suspect the president's softening numbers were the response of the silent majority in both parties to the same partisan pendulum shift we have had for decades now.
Obama's numbers seems to be wavering with the moderate conservatives and independents he won in the general election. He never had the right fringe and the left fringe only came along for the ride reluctantly when their standard bears dropped out.
I see the tone and tenor from the left since his victory as a missed opportunity given the coalition he built in the general, though the over-reaction on the right seems to be having some beneficial affect on the numbers which I find encouraging.
The first time in a generation that a progressive democrat had a chance to build a true governing majority.
September 28, 2009 1:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
What leftist policies have been passed by deomcrats?
September 28, 2009 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't understand what this comment has to do with what I wrote, but in general the democratic party advocates more government and not less as the answer to most problems, which is classic American liberalism.
September 28, 2009 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your premise is that Democrats are not responding to the needs of Moderates/ Independents. Republicans are not responding to the same voters. The final outcome could be a third party. Question, is a third party a bad thing?
When Presidential elections near, I am always amazed by the Undecideds. What are these voters waiting to hear? What magic words could Obama or McCain have said to win their vote? Perhaps there is a block of voters who need some other party to address their unmet needs.
Given the fluctuations in this group of voters, could it be that they are innately volatile? Perhaps it really doesn't matter what the "crazy lefties" are doing?
September 28, 2009 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like Jason, he's a good man, but I have to point out that reasons didn't actually POST a LINK to Jasons home address. Whereas reasons was out of line, I'm not sure this violates anything, and the baiting should be taken into account. That would require some research, and it's ridiculous to expect that from TPM, imho.
Maybe a "timeout" on both sides is called for, but this hysteria is knee-jerk lynch mob. Cherry picking comments and making judgements on only that, is not what intelligent people do.
I am dismayed to see so many engage in it. It's ironic that this behavior is what Jason normally denounces.
=D
September 27, 2009 9:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
For this comment, I give you this here "Hypocrite #1 at TPM" award from all us here to all of you there.
In the words of Attorney Joe Welch: At long last, have you left no sense of decency?
September 28, 2009 4:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Funny how you haven't denounced any men on this thread that have made the same observation.
Why is that?
September 28, 2009 7:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
quinn is just going to hate you for that comment.
September 28, 2009 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
What's your preference? to be fried or baked?
September 28, 2009 5:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Should I consider this a threat and flag it?
September 28, 2009 7:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Is your coop on "google earth"?
September 28, 2009 8:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
The letter of TPM's comment policy is violated six ways from Sunday on a daily basis by the same group of bitter partisans who can't seem to comment on anything without making it personal.
It isn't the blog in question and it requires no comments pulled out of context. I am quite happy to let the record stand for itself.
As to my continued involvement at this site, I suspect it has pretty much run its course. I don't see any of the more intractable bloggers around here changing and I am tired of fighting the group think.
Forgive me if I leave before it infects me and I turn into a pod person too.
September 28, 2009 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
So, Fred gave me a call on me cell phone, further freaking my wife out, but we came to a meeting of the minds so to speak before we took the dogs for a walk around the nation's capital.
It's still a little freakazoid for my tastes, but I am willing to let bygones be bygones.
Still, I think it is either up to the site's administrators to enforce their stated policies or it is up to all of us. There really is no other choice.
Night for now. Will respond in the morning.
September 27, 2009 10:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
jason, I find it fucking unbelievable that "Fred" called you, whether you had a meeting of the minds or not. You sound calm, but maybe that's because you have never been stalked before.
You might shrug off this advice, but I'm going to give it anyway: You need to start a file on "Fred." He is not your friend. You know nothing about him, except that he's an asshole 100 percent of the time. If he continues to contact you, you may need such evidence to "prove" a pattern. This is potentially a serious problem.
Stalkers don't go away unless they are forced to. You can trust me on this.
You are right that you need to take care of yourself and your family first. Your wife is right to be freaked out. "Fred" is definitely not her friend. Only a complete and utter ASSHOLE would CALL YOU after knowing your wife was freaked out by him. That's genius! What a prince! I can't fucking believe it!
"Fred" has some boundary issues. He doesn't know what boundaries are.
If TPM won't do anything about their own rules, in any case, then we are all at risk. So thank you for the psa post. I appreciate it.
I had completely missed your interaction with igotmyreasons, btw. And while you and I have certainly had our differences in the past, that doesn't mean I think you deserve to be threatened and your privacy invaded by some internet loser. Holy crap! That's some crazy shit! I don't care what other people say. That's CRAZY.
Anyway, although I haven't composed it yet, you can count on my vigorous, colorful, and exclamatory complaint to Josh. Take care, jason. Most of all, be safe.
September 27, 2009 11:27 PM | Reply | Permalink