I've said this all along. Any incremental change means going forward from that point. ("Progress", for the rhetorically challenged.)

Half a loaf is always better than none.

i rather like loki. he is a bit pretentious in his delivery but I find that I often enough agree with his viewpoint.

for those who stand behind their principles strongly- answers are often black and white. however, we principled stand-takers also know that solutions often come in shades of gray. simply because loki's delivery often does not come in shades of gray, but rather in black and white, does not mean his assertions are incorrect. rather i think he points out the black and white in the hopes that others reach their own gray. but that's me.

i've always enjoyed loki's input myself. i think some take him a bit too seriously, need to lighten up, and/or protest too much. imho.

To paraphrase Roosevelt's better half, "We must be willing to learn the lesson that cooperation may imply compromise, but if it brings a net advance it is a gain for each individual.”"

Jason, we view the world through very similar lenses. One of the things that I really like about myself is my ability to see both sides of an issue and to amend my initial beliefs based on either new information or the suggestion that I look at current information in a different light. I see the same quality in you, although you are much more articulate in presenting your thoughts.

Thank you for your constant voice of reason, a much needed asset here at TPM.

The quetion as to how we achieve progressive goals in the coming year (and years) to come is definitely one that needs to be discussed more thoroughly. It is a broad issue, of course, with plenty of nuances, but I think one of the facets that needs to be kept at the forefront is the scope of the objective(s).

This has to do in part with "half a loaf is better than none." Early on the campaign trail is was obvious that Obama took the "half a loaf" perspective when it came to achieving progress on health care reform. Going for it all would essentially mean getting nothing, as special interests working on both sides of the ailse would create the same mess as we got in the 90s.

I thought then and still do that approach of Obama's was formed in him from his community organizing days. There are definitely moments to draw the line in sand. A few of these are quite clear, but usually it is difficult to see whether it will achieve the objective(s).

A lot of times there are unstated objective(s) at play (and sometimes more or less unconscious on a number of the players part). A simple example of this would be the objective to punish the Republicans / far rightwing for the past 8 years if nothing else. It is understandable that there is a lot of pent of frustration, anger, and pain; and consequently there is a lot of desire for some sense of justice and the handing out for punishment. But if one approaches the creation and implementation of health care reform with this as one of the objectives then chances are real good nothing will get accomplished.

What constitutes justice is huge messy issue in and of itself. Obama is seeking to look forward, and this might mean letting some people who might otherwise see jail time walk free. We saw that with the FISA brohaha. I'm sure we'll see in the coming months. That is not to say we ignore crimes that have been committed, but rather consider how we approach handling those crimes considering all the objectives that we have in front of us. It is a matter of priorities. And we can't prioritize unless we also clear what it is we want to achieve (along with where we are willing to compromise and where we will draw the line in the sand).

And that is going to take some serious discourse as everybody is going to line up with their agendas. Which comes back to the approach of finding common ground, rather than looking at where we disagree.

That loki guy is kind of a troll.