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The Detainee Abuse Photos: What does Europe (and their Muslim populations) think?
As an American, I know we are engaged in some serious soul searching about the Bush administration, and the firestorm over the detainee abuse photos is the latest symptom of this: the press has been apoplectic about the reversal of course by Obama. Abandoning any pretense of mediation or neutrality, the gloves have come off on a lot of news websites. TPM itself is one of many press organs to unleash the ultimate press weapon of the moment: comparison to Bush.
So what do Europeans and their Muslim populations think of all this? They loathe Bush and were fierce critics of the Iraq war. Their media have duly and faithfully reported on the firestorm surrounding the photos. You might think they'd be clamoring for full disclosure. But if you look at comments to any given article on the subject in say, Le Monde, or the BBC, you'll find that the commentators overwhelmingly side with Obama.
The reason? It might surprise Americans to learn that many Europeans and many muslims think that the media is just looking for a sensationalist photo shoot to increase their ratings. Now before anyone hits the comment button to castigate the folks in Europe who know nothing of our society, think of their perspective.
There is a basic cynicism and mistrust of the media here that is precisely the mirror image of our traditional hostility and cynicism toward government in the US. So what Americans see as a return to the abusive and secretive ways of Bush, Europeans, many of whom are Muslim, see as a blatant commercialization and exploitation of the suffering of others. It is far more apparent here in Europe of how Muslims view these images in general. For them, Americans are flaunting their abusive power over a proud and ancient people who have lost so much already. There is a good chance populations in Afghanistan would see it this way too.
This doesn't mean of course that many here don't believe the photos should be aired. On the contrary, they think they should be made public, but in the context of a courtroom. What they don't understand is that in the US, public opinion has to be swayed before anyone ends up in a courtroom.
I guess it all depends on your perspective when it comes to these issues, but I think Americans would be wise to consider how this is playing out on the world stage and not just in the the context of the political and social situation in the US.
So what do Europeans and their Muslim populations think of all this? They loathe Bush and were fierce critics of the Iraq war. Their media have duly and faithfully reported on the firestorm surrounding the photos. You might think they'd be clamoring for full disclosure. But if you look at comments to any given article on the subject in say, Le Monde, or the BBC, you'll find that the commentators overwhelmingly side with Obama.
The reason? It might surprise Americans to learn that many Europeans and many muslims think that the media is just looking for a sensationalist photo shoot to increase their ratings. Now before anyone hits the comment button to castigate the folks in Europe who know nothing of our society, think of their perspective.
There is a basic cynicism and mistrust of the media here that is precisely the mirror image of our traditional hostility and cynicism toward government in the US. So what Americans see as a return to the abusive and secretive ways of Bush, Europeans, many of whom are Muslim, see as a blatant commercialization and exploitation of the suffering of others. It is far more apparent here in Europe of how Muslims view these images in general. For them, Americans are flaunting their abusive power over a proud and ancient people who have lost so much already. There is a good chance populations in Afghanistan would see it this way too.
This doesn't mean of course that many here don't believe the photos should be aired. On the contrary, they think they should be made public, but in the context of a courtroom. What they don't understand is that in the US, public opinion has to be swayed before anyone ends up in a courtroom.
I guess it all depends on your perspective when it comes to these issues, but I think Americans would be wise to consider how this is playing out on the world stage and not just in the the context of the political and social situation in the US.
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Thanks, as always for the perspective, Jane. I think we may be losing sight of the fact that we need investigations, and we need them now.
I plan on writing my reps every week to demand that investigations into the conduct of the former administration go forward. Immediately.
May 14, 2009 7:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
I wholeheartedly agree with this Bwakfat. I don't think realeasing images of the wrongdoing is necessarily the answer: but investigation and the proper exposure in the context of court proceedings would go a long way to help satisfy the victims and our public conscience.
May 14, 2009 8:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
...and the Rule of Law.
That's what it comes doen to, ultimately. Thanks, again.
May 14, 2009 8:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
It does not surprise this American. Ratings are king here and beyond that, I cannot help but think that it wouldn't be more than half an hour before the first released torture photo was on a tee-shirt being sold at the local mall.
May 14, 2009 8:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for your comment flowerchild. I was specifically thinking of the recent flurry of praise for newspapers (and the free press in general) for being one of the foundations of democracy, all this because of the precariousness of newspapers right now. It's hard to argue with that (the necessity for the free flow of information, etc.), but like you, I can easily see that reality is not so simple.
May 14, 2009 8:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm with you, Flowerchild. Giving the MSM photos to strew all around the world would make for fantastic ratings. The clamor for more torture porn would be endless. The MSM could parse out photos a dozen at a time and string along the sadistic voyeurs in our society for years! In the end, we would become numb to the practice and probably lose our interest in prosecutions. It would become so uninteresting no one here would care.
We don't need photos, we need prosecutions.
May 14, 2009 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for this blog, Jane. I was not aware of the European Muslim reaction. Upon reflection, the reaction makes a great deal of sense. Americans have consistently underestimated the power of humiliation in the Muslim world, and apparently we still do.
I remember (and found!) where the editor-in-chief of Al Jazeera once explained Arab self-esteem this way:
May 14, 2009 10:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for this comment and quote seashell. I know there is tendency to relive the six day war every day among many muslims (kind of how some Southerners relive the civil war) and it struck me on a visit to the Middle East this summer that they were stuck there, in 1967, and couldn't really get beyond it. This quote helps crystallize my thoughts. Thanks!
May 14, 2009 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
What foreigners think of the issue is important, but not central to the issue at all.
The issue at stake is a legal one. The President has reneged on his committment to release the photos. At the time he approved of releasing the photos it was said to continue to try and suppress them would be "hopeless". Suddenly, a change of heart and the government will now argue points already rejected by the court.
All of this is bound up with the issue of the rule of law. Release of the photos is necessary to bring to light the widespread nature of the criminal conduct. The government is doing it's uttermost to avoid it's duty to the law to investigate fully, all credible reports of torture and to prosecute where warranted. The President's statement yesterday made clear he considers all the conduct involved in the photos he is suppressing to be closed cases when, according to the law, they require investigation as war crimes.
Those are the issues. All the other considerations, while perhaps important in some other sense, are not relevant to the exceedingly important legal principle of the rule of law.
May 14, 2009 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't agree with this assessment oleeb, on a number of points. First, if the issue were a legal one, it would be in the courts first and in the press only as a result of this.
There is nothing illegal about what Obama is doing even if he may have as you say "reneged on a commitment" (fortunately this is not illegal, think of how many of us would be in jail at this moment).
What is illegal is the abuse itself, which requires prosecution and investigation, not press visibility. American rape victims have protection from this, why not these detainees?
And why assume this issue is simply an American problem? These crimes occurred in Iraq and Afghanistan and they concern populations that are not American. Can you imagine how we would react if American civilians had been tortured by say, the French and the French government was having a public debate about whether to release the pictures without even considering how Americans feel about it first?
May 14, 2009 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jane,
I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying.
The issue IS in the courts and that is what this entire issue is about: whether the government is going to comply with the law or not. The government has been fighting release of this and a great deal more information for years. President Obama is now simply adopting the position of the previous adminstration as his own despite his repeated promises to the contrary.
The President's announcement yesterday, the one that has caused all this debate, was to keep the issue in the courts by appealing instead of complying with the court's ruling to release the photos as the government had already agreed to do last month.
I made no inference that the President was doing anything illegal. What I am saying is that by fighting to keep the documents hidden, the President is thwarting the rule of law because the crimes depicted in the photos require investigation and prosecution as war crimes. It seems clear to me that the President desperately wants to avoid any such investigation and/or prosecutions.
I think your point about the feelings of the public whether French or American are beside the point. This case has been ongoing now for about 6 years and at no point does public opinion play a role in what the courts decide. Public opinion is relevant perhaps in the political impact the court's decision may have, but it simply is not relevant with respect to the law and the courts have consistently ruled that the documents in question are public documents and must be released. The legal question has been settled and the court has ruled. They have already specifically rejected all of the arguments the President made yesterday about why he believes the government should appeal the decision. Because of the complete rejection of these arguments in the past, the administration only a month ago believed any appeal to be a "hopeless" endeavor.
May 14, 2009 5:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are correct, it's not illegal to promise one thing and do another. But we just got rid of a president like that and were hoping for something better.
However, it IS a legal issue. The courts ruled to release the images - Obama initially took the novel(for American presidents) approach of *gasp* following the ruling of U.S. courts. Now he's essentially petitioning the Supreme Court and asking them to make an exception and hear the appeal on "national security" grounds. So he is abusing the courts EXACTLY like Bush did. When the legal path fails to achieve your political outcome - fall back on executive power and state secrets.
May 15, 2009 4:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for this perspective kgb999. I see what you mean by the "legality" of the issue now.
May 15, 2009 7:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well Jane you certainly add to the discussion. I read Astral and Coonsey and Oleeb, among others. Good post.
What do they think in Europe? See, I have to think again. ooooh that can hurt!!1
May 14, 2009 6:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am French (living in NY), so I got curious and clicked on 'Le Monde' link. Commentators there don't side with Obama "overwhelmingly" at all, more like the opposite. Here is the translation of a few comments on the first page:
- This is not about showing shocking pictures [...] but drawing attention to what is most criminal and fight it.
- I liked Barack [...] It is shameful that he refuses to release those pictures - that don't even relate to his presidency.
- Obama has been a zero since he became a candidate: empty rhetoric hailed as genius after the stupidity of Bush. Obama is a "progressive" puppet of the US oligarchy. No self-criticism, and an ever expanding war in AfPak where the US slaughter hundreds of civilians
- Fine then! Let a tribunal judge those barbarous torturers! But Obama can't even do that.
And that's just from the first few comments; very few actually seem to support this move. It is nice that you try to report what Europeans think of this dubious "new" strategy of cover-up and lies from the Obama administration. It would be even better if you did so objectively.
May 15, 2009 12:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for your comment why on why. while it is true that not all of the comments on that link support Obama, I think you're being selective in order to a make a point I don't think is valid.
why not translate the following ones for instance?:
Obama is right to do this...there are two criminal acts here 1) the abuse itself 2 the sordid diffusion of this abuse to the media...(Thierry H.)
Or this one?
The proper place to see these photos should be the courts, not the tabloid press!
(Martine D.)
We can't count them if you like but the majority of these notes support Obama.
As for the Muslim view of things, I live in Paris in front of the Mosque, and since Muslims in your country don't generally express their views in your newspapers, either as reporters or as commentators, I asked them. I asked the epicier and the women who beg on the corner and men going to prayers.
Voilà...je ne parle pas dans le vide.
May 15, 2009 3:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
What strikes me most is that they are not fearing violent reactions from the Islamic population. Kind of shuts down the major line of "oh noes".
The photos should be released and Obama should clean house in the military instead of placing trust in all of Cheney's generals. Hello! Bush purged the military command of anyone who disagreed with him!
May 15, 2009 3:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
I really don't know enough about the Obama administraton's position to know if they fear the reaction of the Islamic population. They do cite fears for the troops though who knows how serious a contention that is.
As for your position on the photos and what Obama should do with the military, isn't "purging" the military prcisely the kind of behavior that is most "Bushlike"? I'm not saying Obama shouldn't act, but you're taking two steps back if you undo the wrongs of your predecessor by doing the same thing.
And I honestly personally don't know if the photos should or should not be released. But I think that is a distraction from the real issue (Josh Marshall has been following) of the Iraq-Al Quaida link Cheney probably wanted to establish through these heinous practices. Declassifying the memos might be more important than any of this.
May 15, 2009 7:15 AM | Reply | Permalink