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Special Comment on the Special Comment


I like Keith Olbermann. Generally, his analysis is spot on. But tonight, I think he was off the mark.

The release of the CIA torture memos by the Obama administration is a big deal. The New York Times suggested in their story -- which leaked portions of the torture memos -- that the leak  came from inside the CIA as a "shot across the bow" of the new administration. In essence, the Times suggested, career CIA execs were throwing down the gauntlet: "cross us, and you'll be sorry. Release the memos, and you'll pay for it. Leon Panetta will get as much or less cooperation than Porter Goss received. And you know how that turned out." They were basically telling the Obama administration to withhold the memos or else.

But President Obama has always signaled that he more prudent. And while stringing members of the Bush administration up by the heels (apparently not torture) hasn't been one of his priorities, he is dedicated to following the rule of law and the constitution and treaties on which the US has penned its signature.

The Bush administration went out of its way to create loopholes and redefine the law to "allow" them to torture. That is not what the Obama administration is doing. Obama has said, flat out, "the United States does not torture." The Bush administration said, "That depends on what the definition of torture is." By releasing the memos, the Obama administration has said, "this is the definition of torture: keep a guy awake eleven straight days, that's torture. Slam a guy's face and head into a wall repeatedly, that's torture. Waterboarding is torture. Stress positions, torture. What the Bush administration did is torture people. Tortured them in violation of our laws, our treaty agreements, our moral imperative."

And what the Obama administration has done is -- at least to me -- as effective as trial. It has put in the immediate historical record exactly what Bush and company authorized in their own words. It is not released under the pressure of a Freedom of Information Act  (FOIA) request. It is not released 12 years after the administration has ended, but just 12 weeks. Now while the wounds (so to speak) are still fresh, tender, raw, visible. Released while it still hurts, so sense memory cannot kick in and say, "It wasn't that bad."

Time will tell what Spain or other countries will do with regards to Alberto Gonzalez, Dick Cheney and others. By releasing the memos, the Obama administration has dropped the file and it lies open on the sidewalk. Anyone walking by can read the contents. Whatever details Spain or the private citizens who were renditioned for no reason need to pursue their cases is now available in full in the public domain.

Just 12 weeks in to his administration, Obama has done the right thing. We have no truth and reconciliation commission in this country. And we do need  one. But in lieu of that, let the truth come out as it will. The Obama administration released the memos the Bush administration fought so hard to keep secret.

That is a good thing.


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It is released under the court order and on the date ordered by court.

It was NOT a voluntary act by any means.

"The government faces a court deadline Thursday in a lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union, which sought the release of three 2005 memos issued by Steven Bradbury, then acting head of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel under former President George W. Bush."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123975168816518691.html

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Under one option, the outlines of which were described by current and former government officials close to the discussions, the administration would ask a judge to keep secret large parts of the Bradbury memos.

I think you're painting this with too broad of a stroke. Obama had options including redacting a large portion of the memos. He chose not to do that. I understand that you're not the biggest Obama fan, but I think you should give credit where credit is due.

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Tell me what his choices were and (especially)their consequences.

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Can you not read the quote I posted from the article that you cited? You stated he had no choices; the article states that he did..he could've easily and heavily redacted what he released under the guise of national security. If he had no choice but to release them complete, then what was all of the arguing going on behind the scenes?

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The argument behind the scenes as i understand it had to do with persecution of CIA.

Once he was challenged in court, there was no way he could have avoided releasing them without major damage to his credibility.

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Didn't seem to bother Bush about refusing to cooperate, but considering what happened to his approval ratings, maybe Obama was the smarter of the two?

DUH!

Once again, the pro-trolls pounce like vultures, first in line as always, whenever the opportunity arises to trash Obama.

You need to call a meeting of all the pro-trolls and suggest they wait for at least one or two comments to get posted before jumping in with your patent trashtalk, it is so obvious you are all poised at your keyboards, waiting breathlessly for the next post.

One might think you would all realize how blatant it is to always be first and to always be first with a negative comment.

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Get a new hobby, troll. I'm sick of having to scroll past your bullshit.

You're a moron, and you don't like Obama. We've known that for going on, like, a year now.

Do yourself, and the rest of us, a favor: just shut the fuck up.

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"You're a moron, and you don't like Obama"

small typo, here's your correction:

"You're a moron because you don't like Obama"

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It was NOT voluntary? For several days I've been seeing articles asking, telling, demanding Obama to release these memos. It did appeared as if it was his choice. And he's now being applauded for releasing them - so exactly what type of court order is this?

Anyone can answer this question?

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This article has a pretty good explanation of what was going on:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/192314?tid=relatedcl

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A fierce internal battle within the White House . . . . Michael Isikoff

Right!

Sounds like the next thing to a "beat sweetener" to me.

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I feel that it would have been wrong for Obama to direct Holder to prosecute those tasked with carrying out torture without first having prosecuted those approving and ordering that torture. Going only after those performing torture, by letting CIA operatives be prosecuted after having received the okay from Bush's Dept. of Justice, would probably have led to serious national security consequences. I don't doubt that notion violates the principles of accountability established at Nuremberg, but it wouldn't be the first time that the rules were different for the powerful. Anyway, isn't it Congress' duty to investigate alleged misdeeds of the Executive branch, as was done with Watergate?

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Not exactly; Congress doesn't investigate; it holds hearings to obtain legislative facts upon which laws may be drafted and voted upon.

So, in the Watergate matter, the Senate established the Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities looking to see whether campaign finance laws should be amended given the 1972 campaign experience.

The investigation of illegal activities was carried out by the DOJ, which passed it on to the Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox who was succeeded by Leon Jaworski.

IIRC the Senate Committee became famous because it followed the milk lobby's campaign contribution (one of the "activities" being looked at), likely illegal and certainly used for highly questionable campaign activities, which kept popping up here, there and everywhere and specifically, in a CREEP safe from which hush money was paid (or promised?) to the Watergate burglars.

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The University of Cornell School of Law sees it a bit differently:

No provision of the Constitution expressly authorizes either House of Congress to make investigations and exact testimony to the end that it may exercise its legislative functions effectively and advisedly. But such a power had been frequently exercised by the British Parliament and by the Assemblies of the American Colonies prior to the adoption of the Constitution.161 It was asserted by the House of Representatives as early as 1792 when it appointed a committee to investigate the defeat of General St. Clair and his army by the Indians in the Northwest and empowered it to “call for such persons, papers, and records, as may be necessary to assist their inquiries.”162

The Court has long since accorded its agreement with Congress that the investigatory power is so essential to the legislative function as to be implied from the general vesting of legislative power in Congress. “We are of the opinion,” wrote Justice Van Devanter, for a unanimous Court, “that the power of inquiry—with process to enforce it—is an essential and appropriate auxiliary to the legislative function. . . . A legislative body cannot legislate wisely or effectively in the absence of information respecting the conditions which the legislation is intended to affect or change; and where the legislative body does not itself possess the requisite information— which not infrequently is true—recourse must be had to others who possess it. Experience has taught that mere requests for such information often are unavailing, and also that information which is volunteered is not always accurate or complete; so some means of compulsion are essential to obtain what is needed. All this was true before and when the Constitution was framed and adopted. In that period the power of inquiry—with enforcing process—was regarded and employed as a necessary and appropriate attribute of the power to legislate— indeed, was treated as inhering in it. Thus there is ample warrant for thinking, as we do, that the constitutional provisions which commit the legislative function to the two houses are intended to include this attribute to the end that the function may be effectively exercised.”163

And in a 1957 opinion generally hostile to the exercise of the investigatory power in the post–War years, Chief Justice Warren[p.91]did not question the basic power. “The power of the Congress to conduct investigations is inherent in the legislative process. That power is broad. It encompasses inquiries concerning the administration of existing laws as well as proposed or possibly needed statutes. It includes surveys of defects in our social, economic or political system for the purpose of enabling the Congress to remedy them. It comprehends probes into departments of the Federal Government to expose corruption, inefficiency or waste.”164[Emphasis mine.]

Justice Harlan summarized the matter in 1959. “The power of inquiry has been employed by Congress throughout our history, over the whole range of the national interests concerning which Congress might legislate or decide upon due investigation not to legislate; it has similarly been utilized in determining what to appropriate from the national purse, or whether to appropriate. The scope of the power of inquiry, in short, is as penetrating and far– reaching as the potential power to enact and appropriate under the Constitution.”165

http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/art1frag9_user.html

So yes, Congress can investigate and that investigation is not limited to doing so solely for the purposes of legislation.

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Jade, I'm right there with you.

Olbermann mentioned in his comment that (to paraphrase) "there will be future presidents with an amoral disposition; they will look at the decision not to prosecute and they will see precedent."

Well, if that future president is of an amoral disposition, then they will find their precedent whether Obama prosecutes or not.

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Well, if that future president is of an amoral disposition, then they will find their precedent whether Obama prosecutes or not.

I completely disagree. If the threat of prosecution hangs over the head, like the Sword of Damocles, of a future executive he/she might think twice before authorizing something like torture. It isn't about a partisan political 'gotcha' game it is about upholding the rule of law. And by giving people who may very likely have broke the law during the Bush Administration you are saying it is alright to do it again in the future.

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Libertine, I think that's fair. The threat that a future president would turn around and prosecute you for decisions in the present would likely be a factor in decision-making. That's a pretty indirect way of guiding behavior, but a way nonetheless. Strengthening international law would demonstrate a more direct way of guiding behavior. And I think Jade is hinting toward that: "Whatever details Spain or the private citizens who were renditioned for no reason need to pursue their cases is now available in full in the public domain."

Point well taken though Libertine.

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Libertine is right, I think. And I'd just add that one of the arguments for prosecuting everyone involved (from top to bottom) is that it sends a clear signal that everyone (from top to bottom) has a responsibility to resist performing war crimes and can be punished severely for failing to resist. The excuse "I was just following orders" isn't allowed when it comes to crimes against humanity. Except maybe now, in the US, it is?

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Seriously...if Obama is willing to ignore crimes committed by government employees during the Bush Administration what else would he be willing to 'overlook'. A horrible precedent is being established. We're a country of laws and not of bi-partisan comity. I am VERY disappointed in this decision by the President.

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From NYT Wednesday- illegal spying has continued. It was all accidental, of course, and the "problems" have been resolved.

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I don't get your beef with Keith. How much of what remarks were "off the mark" here? Your blog doesn't make that clear.

The bit about the CIA doesn't make any sense. Why would they leak some parts of memos they wanted to keep secret as a bow shot??

"By releasing the memos, the Obama administration has said, ..."

Not to me it doesn't. It says, "We're complying honorably with a court order instead of fighting it tooth and nail." And when it comes to details:

"...that's torture. ..., that's torture. ... is torture. ..., torture. ... Tortured them in violation of our laws"

I don't see Obama saying that at all. I see that people like you and me see the memos describing torture, but I don't see Obama making that judgment officially or otherwise. He's not commenting either way. Holder has already judged that waterboarding is torture for the purposes of this discussion, and I think he's right.


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Can't agree with ya on this. Obama's refusal to investigate and prosecute those responsible for criminal activity during the Bush years is utterly indefensible and legitimizes the "I was only following orders" defense. It's immoral and unethical. And if what you say about the CIA firing a shot across the administration's bow is true, then he is also a chicken. No amount of rationale can whitewash or justify this bad decision by the President. None.

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Not much in the way of the usual "Rec'd," "Agree 100%," "Couldn't have said it better," et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Either Jade7243 posted this blog past the bedtime of our Obama cultists or as the days pass and Obama proves himself to be less than he promised, they're beginning to lose the faith. Wonder which it is.

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I hardly post to seek the 100% agreement of any "cultists." If you opinion is different, Ellen of the one-eye, you are certainly free to put forth your opinion.

But I suspect you lack the teabags to do so on your own blog.

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Kind of testy for the loving community. Can't you be kicked out for that kind of thing;)

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Yeah, right.

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You are drawing a false conclusion from an incomplete set of inferences. I think I made my point quite clearly in Oleeb's blog. Invoking Nuremburg or the following orders defense is preemptive and narrow-minded and only serves to create apathy where none should exist. I think such cursory and false historical parallels indicate reflexive dogmatic thinking that befits a cultist. I would suggest you look into your own character before you delight in attacking others.

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Interesting observation. I keep waiting for this drop-off to occur. There is a major difference between serious attempts to discuss problems and policies and the rush to defend Obama from every attack. I think we still have a few months left before the chorus that has been dominating the discourse tires of its efforts and hopefully then there will be a more robust discussion. Of course with Obama supporters like Rosenberg and Taplin, the Obama chorus will always have a platform (regardless of what Obama actually does). In this regard, the number of times any of the front-pagers on the most popular liberal blog dKOS have even indirectly criticized the Obama administration in the last three months, by my count, is twice...and only one of these was a direct criticism (by Deviltower, I believe, on the bailout). Truly a shocking lack of intellectual honesty.

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If applauding a turn away from the abuses of the Bush years makes one a "cultist", then pass the KoolAid.

It's interesting that you are far more critical of Obama than you ever were of Bush, however.

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A Ridiculous and Utterly Unsupported Assertion!

But then, ad hominem attacks are typical of the Obama cultist.

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"But then, ad hominem attacks are typical of the Obama cultist."

LOL. Do they pay you to write this stuff?

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Only when she's not out bagging tea. That takes two hands.

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You got this one right Jade! The best thing the administration could do is to shine a bright light on what has gone on in the past. Can you imagine anything that would more unite the Republican party and elevate the right-wing in this country than Obama putting George Bush and Dick Cheney on trail? It doesn't even matter whether you believe they broke the law. What matters is this country would never convict them and might even push further into the nonsensical abyss. Prosecutors make these kinds of decisions everyday, of not moving forward with trails, because they know they can never get a conviction. Sunlight was the best policy!

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But they are not shining a bright light on what has gone on in the past. It is a very selective and protective light giving cover to criminal acts. They are first and foremost providing political cover for illegal activities. Avoiding the wrath of the criminals' supporters is a classic DC Democratic move of political cowardice that only invites additional crimes in the future. As Olbermann pointed out in his special comment last night, each time in our history when we've chosen this course of ignoring the crimes of the past, it has made things worse, not better. The same will be true in this case which is being treated as through it were merely a political matter when it most certainly is not primarily a political matter. It is primarily a criminal matter and should be handled in the same manner other criminal activity is handled. No prosecutor chooses to look the other way when it comes to kidnapping, torture and murder. That does not happen every day. So that analogy is simply inapprporiate in this case. Would this solution be acceptable to Obama or to yourself if another nation chose this path when your nationals were wrongly tortured and imprisoned? Would this solution be acceptable to Obama or to you if your relatives were the ones who were tormented and given the same treatment that prisoners of the Nazi's, the Japanese and the Russians were given? I certainly hope not.

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"No prosecutor chooses to look the other way when it comes to kidnapping, torture and murder". I'm sure there are many in the civil rights community who can tell you different. Not to mention the foreign policy community.

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So practices decades ago and in foreign countries prove your point? Give me a break. That is not everyday behavior for prosecutors in the US. Quite the contrary. And even if it were, it would not absolve Obama from turning a blind eye to what he knows were crimes. It is appalling!

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Practices decades old? If you are not aware that unnecessary reditions (kidnap) and civil rights abuses (including murder) are being committed NOW, then obviously this discussion is futile!

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You and Olbermann are both displaying a shocking lack of awareness. The legislature is preparing to investigate. There is plenty of reason to invoke a special prosecutor. There is plenty of judicial room for justice to be served.

By laying all of this outrage at the executive is empowering the unitary executive philosophy by making Obama the prime arbiter of justice. The reason: ignorance of political process. Blaming Obama would make sense if he were a dictator; he's not. Put your energy towards persuading the legislature to do what's right.

I am getting sick of this ignorant misdirected holier than thou smug ridiculous outrage merchandising that is damaging reasonable discourse.

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So your namecalling is reasonable discourse. Chill out pal.

First of all there is no active intent or plan on the part of either house in Congress to investigate this. There will be no truth commission and if Feinstein holds a hearing or two that does not by any means constitute a criminal investigation which is what is called for here by our laws and by opur treaty opbligation.

You tire of outrage merchandising? Too bad. You can choose to read something else. Some of us are actually outraged and we tire of criminal conduct on the part of our government sanctioned by both parties. The President has publicly claimed personal responsibility for the decision not to investigate or prosecute and that is why he is the target of so much criticism. He deserves the criticism.

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By laying all of this outrage at the executive is empowering the unitary executive philosophy by making Obama the prime arbiter of justice. The reason: ignorance of political process.

Not to point out the obvious but the root of the word executive is execute, i.e., to carry out; to accomplish; to perform or do. The executive enforces the law, it does not arbitrate it. That's the job of the judiciary.

Put your energy towards persuading the legislature to do what's right.

Again, wrong branch. The laws are already there; someone needs to execute them, not write them. That's Obama's job and he failed disgracefully to do it.

Sometimes ignorance of the political process is just as far away as the nearest mirror.

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When the executive executes the law improperly... Who then investigates? History gives a lot of heft to Congress. The executive has a poor history of self-investigation.

Wherein is what I've said somehow incorrect? Playing definition games does not put the lie to what I've written.

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When the executive executes the law improperly... Who then investigates? History gives a lot of heft to Congress. The executive has a poor history of self-investigation.

In my house, everyone wipes his or her own ass. It's not Congress' job to clean up the mess made by the prior administration (besides, a Congressional investigation is not a trial no matter what theater is employed). It's Obama's job. He may not like the stench, but it's still his sandbox and he's required by law to pursue misfeasors.

Wherein is what I've said somehow incorrect? Playing definition games does not put the lie to what I've written.

Your assertion that Congressional investigation is a substitute for executive action is flat out wrong. And if you think defining one's terms is a game, then perhaps you ought to learn the rules of the game before you start playing, your [knowledge] of "political process" notwithstanding (such as it is).

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Did I say substitute? No.

The executive needs to appoint a special prosecutor. Congress needs to hold hearings and create an atmosphere where this is acceptable.

So what part of what I am saying is incorrect? Without putting words in my mouth.

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It's what you're not saying, or more precisely, what you're implying that has a malodorous taint to it. You're saying that there's reason for the executive to act, but you fall far short of insisting on that executive action. In effect, you're giving Obama a pass, something to which I take exception. If I'm misreading you, then take pains to make yourself clear without the spurious accusations of straw man fallacies.

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I would add you have a penchant for personal invective that is uncalled for. You should excercise more self control.

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This is rich coming from someone who does not hesitate to call people kool aid drinkers.

Physician heal thyself.

Your MO is quite clear: outrage peddling. You misuse history and make bold accusations. You stir invective and you promote apathy. I am sorry if what I say ruffles your feathers... But what you do gets tiresome. You are one note in a harmony of progressive anger and you never fail to repeat the daily conventional wisdom.

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People, we are not the only members of Obama's constituency now. He's aware that not everybody that voted for him wants us to rush to prosecute the Bush administration for crimes of torture. He's not stupid. He knows if these acts are criminal and if they're worth pursuing-but at what cost? My guess is that he's got to be savvy and handle this with kid gloves or he blows the whole thing. Once people or the MSM start calling it a witch hunt it's over. Also, I'd bet the last thing he wants is the shit storm circus that would follow a sitting POTUS criminally charging a former POTUS. Do we want him to burn up every bit of political capital to go after Bush on torture or, do we want him to save it for, say, Healthcare reform? If I were him, every time the Republican Senate even mentioned the word "filibuster", I'd "leak" another torture memo.

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Time will tell what Spain or other countries will do with regards to Alberto Gonzalez, Dick Cheney and others. By releasing the memos, the Obama administration has dropped the file and it lies open on the sidewalk.

What Obama dropped was the ball. Allowing Spain or any other country to do what is morally OUR responsibility is shameful and cowardly. I am extremely disappointed in Obama and his Justice department.

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Name one person in the US executive branch who has ever, EVER, been tried for war crimes. (I'm researching that right now. Let's see what we find.)

To the best of my knowledge, it's a ball we've never picked up in the first place.

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So, when someone dumps a load of sewage onto your front porch, do you just scratch your head and say, "Hmm, that's never happened before."?

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via Wiki:

"In 2002, during a brief visit to the UK, a petition for Kissinger's arrest was filed in the High Court in London based on Indochinese civilian casualties and environmental damage resulting from U.S. bombing campaigns in North Vietnam and Cambodia in the period between 1969 and 1975.[34]

Kissinger, the war criminal, walks the streets of New York freely.

The bombing of Hanoi on December 24, 1972 resulted in harsh reactions from the prime-minister of Sweden, Olof Palme. During his famous speech that same day to the media (nowadays referred to as "The Christmas Speech"), Palme expressed harsh criticism for the war, comparing it with several of Nazi Germany's and Soviet's worst deeds.[18] This froze the diplomatic climate between the United States and Sweden, a freeze that lasted until March 1974.

Lt. William Calley, tried and convicted, My Lai massacre. That effectively puts Lynndie England and Chuck Graner on par with Calley.

Robert S. McNamara? For all of the bluster of the left after Vietnam, nothing.

So let's get real. We tend to like the breastbeating, but don't do anything of consequence.

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Shorter Jade7243: Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

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It's not the boss, it's the same old huff and puff... So-and-so committed war crimes! but after a while the hew and cry dies down and we move on. Any prosecutions will not reach the upper levels of the Bush administration.

So maybe let's change tactics? Punish Bush and co in some other manner?

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Why can't TPMers discuss Obama's decisions without someone accusing the other of being a cultist, kool-aid drinking Obamabot?

Dissenting does not always mean you are objective or right and defending Obama does not mean you are a mindless disciple. It's starting to remind me of HuffPo. Picture yourself in room, face to face with the other commentators before you start with the insults.

Not directed at everyone, but you know who you are.

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IMO amnesty from charges should've only come in exchange for testimony.

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Dunno if someone said this already, but Spain chickened out and dropped the case.

ho well. Would have been fun to watch, if just to catch a good dog and pony show.

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