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Third Debate: McCain dismisses woman's health in abortion law
Obama: With respect to partial-birth abortion, I am completely supportive of a ban on late-term abortions, partial-birth or otherwise, as long as there's an exception for the mother's health and life, and this did not contain that exception...
McCain: Just again, the example of the eloquence of Sen. Obama. He's [for the] health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything.
That's the extreme pro-abortion position, quote, "health." But, look, Cindy and I are adoptive parents. We know what a treasure and joy it is to have an adopted child in our lives. We'll do everything we can to improve adoption in this country...
Wow. McCain dismisses the health of women as a consideration for abortion, then suggests that once he ends abortion (even if the health of a woman is threatened) we will just help everyone adopt the babies that result.
I've seen none of the immediate post-debate coverage highlight this part of the
debate, but I have to believe that for many women (and not a few men) this was the most important exchange in the whole show.
I've seen none of the immediate post-debate coverage highlight this part of the
debate, but I have to believe that for many women (and not a few men) this was the most important exchange in the whole show.
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No, it wasn't the most important. It was as important as other issues.
'Course, women's interests are more important than any others, exactly as only men can be "sexist".
This is "Breast Cancer Awareness" month. There is no "Prostate Cancer Awareness Month." But men are expected to concern themselves with the former, while women couldn't care less about the latter.
October 16, 2008 2:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're wrong. September is prostate cancer awareness month.
http://pcaawareness.net/
In addition, I, as a woman, have been extremely interested in prostate cancer issues. I have proudly, in the course of my career, had a small but relevant part in helping treat and, in many cases, cure men who had this terrible disease. Cancer in any shape, is a terrible disease regardless of who it strikes.
October 16, 2008 8:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that this was a HUGE moment in the debate and, eventually, the election. The way McCain seemed to mock the "health" of the mother paralleled, to me, the way he mocks the necessary "safety" of nuclear power. Pshaw! What kind of wimps would care about SAFETY and HEALTH?
(*tentatively raises hand*)
October 16, 2008 3:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder if McCain has informed his daughters that their "health" is unimportant?
October 16, 2008 8:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
They had a good coverage over at MyDD:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/10/15/233838/00
in which McCain uses his fingers to quote "health of the mother". Good job, John, I suspect your nursing home attendants will soon be responding quick enough to your quote-I need you to come right now-unquote.
October 16, 2008 8:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
I can’t believe that his comments resonated with anyone but the “Abortion is murder” set. For people who believe in privacy rights and those who are ambivalent about abortion, his remarks were chilling.
October 16, 2008 9:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
I believe you are totally wrong. Abortion in the third trimester is a losing issue for democrats. Over 80% of Americans think abortion should be illegal in the third trimester and over 60% believe it should be illegal in the second trimester. Only in the first trimester do over 60% of Americans think abortion should be legal. The caveat being health of the mother which the average american defines rather narrowly.
Fortunately for Obama Mccain is a very poor communicator. "You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything. That's the extreme pro-abortion position, quote, "health."" The pro life position is that abortion in the third trimester has in effect become legal contrary to the intent of Roe v Wade by loosely defining "health" to include the most trivial forms of "mental distress." If this narrative was effectively conveyed to the public and other issues didn't over ride it democrats would lose in it.
McCain was actually articulating badly the same position that Obama was attempting to take when he was pandering to the evangelicals. In and interview in Relevant Magazine, a christian publication Obama said, "Now, I don't think that "mental distress" qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term. Otherwise, as long as there is such a medical exception in place, I think we can prohibit late-term abortions."
October 16, 2008 11:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
I understand the point that McCain was trying to make, but it's not the point he made.
The point he made is that he is so dismissive and condescending to women that he can discuss a brutally difficult thing like late-term abortions with air quotes and a sneer.
I know that the hardline anti-women crowds want to strip out health of the woman protections. I also know that in the real world, those protections matter. The anti-women hardliners would do things like deny abortions to women with ectopic pregnancies. Even though ectopic pregnancies in the fallopian tube *always* result in the death of the fetus, the hardliners want to wait until the fetus dies on its own before removing it. In the process, they dramatically increase a woman's chance of serious complications. These people are vile.
Here's an example of their thinking:
http://www.rightremedy.org/tracts/9
October 16, 2008 1:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
People hear what they want to hear and ignore the rest. What you heard was I'm sure very different than what catholic democrats in PA heard or many other protestants like them who are concerned about the number of abortions. Luckily for democrats this year the economy has taken priority over that issue. But its not going away and if the economy improves it will come back to bite them in the ass. Mostly because of crazy extremists like you who lump the majority of Americans who support abortion and also support regulation of abortion with the most crazy pro life extremists on the other side.
October 16, 2008 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Huh? I'm an extremist because I will fight tooth and nail to include health of the woman exceptions into any ban on late-term abortions? I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Americans, even those who are anti-abortion, support health of the woman exceptions. Pretty much anyone who is sane and who doesn't hate women supports health of the woman exceptions.
It's the whacked out fringe who doesn't want those, and McCain was playing to them with his sneering, dismissive, callous disregard last night.
October 16, 2008 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're locked in a clinch with the crazies on the right as you attempt to make this discussion about ectopic pregnancies. As you scream about ectopic pregnancies they scream back that you want to kill babies. Both sides are insane imo and get in the way of any intelligent dialog on the issue. This doesn't address any of the concerns of a majority of Americans.
There's a great deal of concern about abortion among most Americans as the fetus enters the third trimester. While there is overwhelming support for health of the mother exceptions or even considerations of psychological health that doesn't address the very real concerns about trivializing those exceptions with a mental distress exception.
That you chose to totally ignore my only point to go frothing off at the mouth about ectopic pregnancies pretty much defines you as a crazy in my eyes. Your avatar matches your character exactly.
October 16, 2008 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I totally do not understand what makes me crazy here. I firmly believe that any late-term abortion bans must include a health of the woman exception. Is that a crazy position?
I also know that there are people who do not want health of the woman exceptions. They want no exceptions, no way, no how. I find those people dangerous and extreme. Is that a crazy position?
Help me out here because I don't see anything in what I've written that could be construed as extreme.
October 16, 2008 2:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure what makes your position extreme either. I'd also like to add that I am against all bans on abortion. If a woman wants to make that choice and her doctor agrees that it is medically safe, then she should have that right.
It's not as if women make these decisions lightly. It's not as if a woman in her third trimester will suddenly decide she's not ready to be a mother. The law should have respect for a woman's judgment.
Moreover, I think it takes us into very messy territory when we try to start defining who should be allowed to have an abortion and who shouldn't. There are more than a few people who don't think mental stress/concerns about mental health are a legitimate reason to get an abortion (it reminds me of the people who think postpartum depression is just a bad case of the blues). I cringed when I say Barack Obama make a similar statement. We have a long way to go in this country before we have mental health parity. Is there any guarantee that bans won't hurt women with mental health concerns?
If a doctor says that an abortion is medically safe, the courts should respect that.
October 16, 2008 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I meant "I cringed when I saw Barack Obama make a similar statement."
I realize he was talking about women requesting mental health exceptions in their third trimester. But, he still sounded pretty flippant to me; it was amplified by the fact that he was talking to a Christian magazine that has published more than a few anti-choice articles.
Moreover, the instances of women requesting mental health exceptions in their third trimester has got to be extremely rare.
October 16, 2008 4:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
oceankat, maybe you should reflect on the apparently kneejerk ranting you're doing here before accusing anyone else of being "crazy" or "extremist".
October 16, 2008 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's because he views women as chattel.
October 16, 2008 10:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
McCain: "Health, shmealth! And safe nuclear power? Give me a break!"
October 16, 2008 11:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
i am surprised that there isn't more discussion about the comments McCrazy said about Supreme Court nominees.
He said that he would consider any qualified candidate, regardless of the beliefs vis'a'vis Roe vs. Wade, but that anyone in favor of Roe vs. Wade wasn't qualified.
Or did I get that wrong?
October 16, 2008 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice Air Quotes McDonut - It is not the "pro abortionists" who determine what constitutes "women's health" it is the doctors - and you cannot legislate that they break the Hypocratic Oath when a woman's health is in danger - the living have rights, too.
My favorite part of the debate was when McCain accused Obama of voting against Stephen Breyer, who was appointed during the Clinton Administration, long before Obama was in the Senate. McCain's mind is really failing him - there is no way he should be president.
October 16, 2008 1:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I totally do not understand what makes me crazy here. I firmly believe that any late-term abortion bans must include a health of the woman exception. Is that a crazy position?
--------------------------------------------------
No, most Americans agree with you according to extensive polling. But when you start ranting about ectopic pregnancies and refuse to even address the concern a majority of Americans have about the mental distress exception it labels you an extremist in my eyes.
I also know that there are people who do not want health of the woman exceptions. They want no exceptions, no way, no how. I find those people dangerous and extreme. Is that a crazy position?
-------------------------------------------------
Yes, its absolutely as extreme as your refusal to discuss the mental distress exception. Neither of those extremes are in the mainstream of thought among the majority of the public, according to polls. Its simply not what the average American is considering when they think about this issue.
At any rate I'm done with this. Tell your candidate all about ectopic pregnancies since clearly he needs to hear it considering what he said about the mental distress exception.
In an interview in Relevant Magazine, a christian publication Obama said, "Now, I don't think that "mental distress" qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term. Otherwise, as long as there is such a medical exception in place, I think we can prohibit late-term abortions."
October 16, 2008 3:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know why I'm not addressing the "mental distress" - because it's a totally irrelevant straw woman. But, since you insist, I will.
1. I'm well aware that Obama has previously stated that he does not believe mental distress should be included as a health exception.
2.Second, I'm not convinced it's an issue. There is simply no epidemic of woman declaring "mental distress" because after six months of being pregnant, they've blithely decided they don't feel like going through with it. It's utter, absolute bullshit.
Third-trimester abortions are extremely rare, only a tiny fraction of one percent of all abortions. They are virtually always done for medical reasons, either because of serious, severe threats to the woman's health or because of issues with the fetus. Any notion that women are just jumping up and down to find any excuse to get an abortion at six months is mind-bogglingly ludicrous.
There, I've addressed the mental distress issue. Again, I don't think anything I've just written qualifies as crazy.
October 16, 2008 3:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
You think "mental distress" is a totally irrelevant straw woman yet you think questions regarding the removal of an ectopic pregnancy is some how relevant? Even among the most right wing abortion foes those who would object to the removal of an ectopic pregnancy is miniscule.
Mental distress is an issue because the American people are uncomfortable with the concept of third trimester abortions. Just as partial birth abortions are an issue both because of that discomfort with third trimester abortions and the ugliness of the procedure, even if medically necessary.
My point in posting was pretty simple. I was disagreeing with this post, "I can’t believe that his comments resonated with anyone but the “Abortion is murder” set....those who are ambivalent about abortion, his remarks were chilling."
I believe McCain's comments did resonate with a portion of the American people in a way that Palin's abortion positions do not. If McCain wasn't such a poor communicator it would have resonated much more. Democratic politicians can't touch the issue of third trimester abortion because as soon as they attempt to address it the far left base will attempt to divert the discussion with rants like yours about ectopic pregnancies and vile anti women hardliners.
This hurts the democrats in two ways, with their pro choice hardliners and with the main street voter who hear the invectives and see them directed at themselves.
October 16, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
And my quote was directed at his apparent dismissal of the need for a “health of the mother” exception for any law banning late-term abortions. He didn’t say that the law needed a health of the mother exception but that it needed to be tightened up. He mocked the entire concept by using air quotes. That's what I found chilling about his remarks.
October 18, 2008 3:25 PM | Reply | Permalink