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White Entitlement: Pat Buchanan on Maddow


It is pretty startling how people can ignore certain facts to fabricate from nothing an argument to support their position, but that is what Pat Buchanan did on Rachel Maddow Thursday night.  He created this imaginary world with selective historical accounts to develop a grand theory of White Entitlement.  I have to type this with cellophane over my key board because I am just spitting mad about how, 140 years later, we continue to fight the Civil War and have such a long road to travel to make a more perfect union because of delusional, old, white men like Pat Buchanan.

For reference, you can watch the debate/shriekfest here. 

http://tpmtv.talkingpointsmemo.com/?id=2973685&ref=fpblg

If one agrees with Mr. Buchanan, then one believes that from the very outset the Founding Fathers intended freedom to be a blessing they would keep to themselves, white males, always and forever.  Mr. Buchanan declares that the signers of the Declaration of Independence were composed of 100% white men, implying there was a deliberate effort to keep other races and genders from ever rising out of their unrepresented status. Evidently, these other segments of society would be best represented by white men anyway, in his distorted estimation. 

Mr. Buchanan later emphatically stated that that those killed at Gettysburg and Vicksburg were 100% white males,  It's an interesting proposition, considering that nearly 200,000 black soldiers fought in the Civil War, nearly 10% of the military.  But we can ignore this statistic because these two battles were only a very small part of the four year conflict.  As critical as they were in leading to the final outcome of that war, there were hundreds of battles and within them there are several instances of the United States Colored Troops performing distinguished service, including a horrific engagement at New Market Heights, Virginia, wherein 14 black soldiers were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.  If research is too much for Mr. Buchanan in his senior years, he might consider watching the movie Glory, a dramatic interpretation of an actual regiment of Colored Troops, the 54th Massachusetts, bravely storming Fort Wagner in a doomed assault.  With Morgan Freeman and Denzel Washington among that actors, it's really very well done.  And did I mention the movie is based on fact?  I suppose I could also mention another little piece of trivia, that the South lost the War, but let's move on.  Blacks have fought bravely in more wars then that.

Buchanan also falsely announces that whites were "probably close to" 100% of those killed at Normandy.  Well, gee, here's a photo from the archives of the All-Black 320th Battalion on the beach at Normandy, June 6, 1944.  

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/06/05/2009-06-05_allblack_battalion_that_landed_in_normandy_france_on_dday_to_be_honored_on_anniv.html?CFID=17854669&CFTOKEN=44715724

These guys look black to me!  The caption states that many of these men perished.  If the battallion is All-Black, it is safe to assume some of the soldiers who paid the ultimate sacrifice at Normandy were killed while black.  Of course, there are all those Holocaust pictures too, and I'm not sure whether Buchanan is willing to admit to that tragedy either, I mean just because there are hundreds of evidentiary photos, but that's another topic.  {Author's note:  I do not know whether these brave men prefer to be referred to as Black, Negroes, African-Americans, Sable Soldiers, Buffalo Soldiers, or some name, but having served in battle, having assaulted the beaches of Normandy, I am willing to call them any name they wish.  They have earned at least that much.  In the meanwhile, I shall refer to them as black. though only for brevity sake.  I certainly mean no offense.}

With the war theme, I could continue to explore our involvement in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq.  We could ennumerate the contributions of blacks in these conflicts as well, but I believe that history is so recent, even Mr. Buchanan would be hard pressed to deny blacks have fought in these wars with distinction.   I would simply refer him to General Colin Powell to explain these historical facts over a mint julep on the porch some cool summer evening.  

This post, so far, has been related to Mr. Buchanan's racist bent and focused on blacks, but the Hispanic population is given a similar disdainful and resentful treatment.  This critical moment in history, when a Latina will be elevated to the US Supreme Court, has apparently unleashed Pat's racist genie and his unrelenting fear of people not of his race.  But he fears her gender as well, which may be even more frightening to Mr. Buchanan as can be revealed in this quote regarding Sonia Sotomayor.  "She was appointed because she was a Latina, an Hispanic, and a woman."  Mr. Buchanan is so incensed with this insult to racial purity and so overcome with his sexist tirade, he repeats himself.  Latina already denotes hispanic. Those are not two separate "offenses", and Latina also denotes woman, for that matter, but if you listen to the video, Mr. Buchanan is blinded by his rage against the injustices to white males and fails to realize his redundancy.

In keeping with his fabricationist history, if you will, Buchanan attacks Ms. Sotomayor's education and achievements suggesting that it is probably that her grades were fixed in the spirit of affirmative action.  This is a mean-spirited assumption.  While Mr. Buchanan tries to avoid being labelled a racist because he would not assume the fastest men in this country were not selected for the track team because they were black, but the fastest runners, and that he would not assume that the all white hockey team from MInnesota was selected for being white rather then the best hockey players, he is willing to assume that Mr. Sotomayor was given good grades because she was a Latina, and not because she dedicated herself to studying and deserved them.  He questions her achievement of summa cum laude  when she graduated from Princeton.  Therefore, this is not simply an insult to Ms. Sotomayor, but to anyone graduating with that distincton from Princeton.

This post is about false entitlement.  It is clear Mr. Buchanan feels he is entitled to cast these aspersions around because he is a white male, history's latest victim of prejudice.  Why he is given a national stage to present these lies is beyond my comprehension, but as one commentor noted in my last post, at least now we get to illustrate how twisted and sick these ideas are.  So, in a spirit of unbridled generosity, thank you, Mr. Buchanan, for that.  And thank you, Oleeb, for reminding me of a position I had taken regarding the Reverend Rick Warren when he was invited to speak at the inauguration.  Pastor Warren made a great object of derision and enabled us to express his distorted view of society for days.

Freedom of speech?  Yes, Mr. Buchanan has the right to say what he wishes.  We do not put people in jail for that.  But we also have the right, no, the obligation, to declare that we will not move forward if we cannot face the truth of our shared history and the many contributions that have been made by people of color. 

Thank you, Rachel Maddow, for so emphatically defending a quest for real greatness for this nation in which we can utilize a much greater human population to locate the best and the brightest.  They are not all white and they are not all male, but they are all American, and our best and our brightest can come from anywhere as has been proven historically time and again, whether these fabricationist historian choose to acknowledge this or not.       

 


76 Comments

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He has a right to free speech but I am going to ignore media that carries his tripe just like I ignore Rush Limbaugh. He may have an audience but it is not me.

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Bravo OT and your anger bubbled in me while watching his obnoxious statements and lies. I really have always disliked him but I hated him last night and kudos to Rachel for not losing it as I would have done. I may need plastic wrap for my keyboard if I continue so thanks for a well done tearing apart of a real asshat.

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I love the way Rachel handles him. I admire her for being able to be so gracious when she introduces him, and when she says good bye to him, and I especially admire the way she handles him in between.

"Pat, you're dating yourself."

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"Dating" one's self is not something Pat is concerned about being. He's a member of Sons of the Confederacy. He's still fighting the Civil War, for Gawd'z sake! But to declare 100% of the soldiers on the beaches of Normandy were white? BS!!! That's a loathesome disrespect to the men who fought and died there while black.

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Another reminder to him should have been that we would have lost the war had it not been for the Native American Code Talkers. It was the use of their language in a code that confounded the Japanese and has the distinction of having never been broken by the enemy. But I guess "American" achievements only count when they are done by white southern men in English.


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Only the willfully blind cannot see that our greatest achievements come when we all join together to resolve a matter. There is no denying the contributions of the Navajo to our success in the Pacific. Unless one closes their eyes really tightly and covers their ears, like a child having a tantrum.

Thank you for adding that to this discussion.

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Buchanan didn't say 100% at Normandy were white. He said, "probably almost 100%" were white. He was right. Arguing against historically verifiable facts is a silly way to shoot down his ridiculous arguments that take facts to irrelevance.

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Prior to seeing your comment while reading the link provided by SPQR blow, I noted the oversight and have amended this post.

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Okey doke.

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Pat's off his meds. I have never heard him this blatant about his racism,his bias, his white supremacism views in decades.

And on Andrea Mitchell, I mean its like--well after all we are all friends.

After pat has spewed out comments that would get anyone else fired.......and he is angry about it Gregor.

I beginning to think that we need a petition to get his ass of of MSM. But there is too much going on right now.

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Frankly, he has declared he's a victim. So we should not make him a victim, but we could make him a liar and demand he recant his bullshit about Nomandy being 100% white people, at the very least. We could also demand he retract his insult to Princeton University questioning their integrity related to grades and the summa cum laude designation.

Who the hell is he to be pissed. He flat out lied and dishonered the sacrifices of soldiers who fought and died at Normandy!!! SH*T!!! I took the cellophane off my sgjhuabqebvusvf..............

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You know the other thing Gregor, is that 40% of the Vietnam veterans were minorities. 60,000 dead in that one.

AND PAT WAS PARTIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR DEATHS

and he never served a week in the service.

THE END

I AM TOO ANGRY RIGHT NOW

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Prepare for cranial detonation. If you factor in the Dredd Scott decision (3/5ths of 60,000), that only counts as 40,000 killed. Pat Buchanan is a completely and totally ungrateful Bastard.

Gee, I just can't wait to see what the leader of the GOP will do now! Next post, Michael Steele and how he jumped up to denounce this racist BS to defend the honor of the black men who died on Normandy Beach. Or did Mr. Steele resign from the GOP in disgust?

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Prepare for cranial detonation. If you factor in the Dredd Scott decision (3/5ths of 60,000), that only counts as 40,000 killed. Pat Buchanan is a completely and totally ungrateful Bastard.

Uh - the 3/5ths rule has nothing to do with Dred Scot. Dred Scot was the case whose decision effectively said that no state could ban slavery within its borders.

Also, the 3/5ths rule applied specifically to slaves, not to blacks in general.

Finally, if you dislike slavery, then the 3/5ths rule was a good thing, as its only effect was to dilute the voting power of the slaveholding South in Congress. Counting slaves as "full persons" would have done nothing but give the slaveowners more votes, as slaves would not have been allowed to vote anyway.

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then the 3/5ths rule was a good thing, as its only effect was to dilute the voting power of the slaveholding South in Congress.


Good for whom?

It certainly wasn't good for the individuals counted as three-fifths or sixty-percent of a person. It was only good for the South according to Lawrence Goldstone in Dark Bargin because that region of the country would be over-represented in the upper chamber of Congress: the House of Representatives. The South knew that the north had a larger population and feared that slavery would soon be outlawed if they agreed to form a union with its northern brethren.

Slaves counted towards the proportion of seats in the National government but they along with free people of color were discounted in state governments. They could not own property. Slave and free persons alike could not testify against white people. Free people of color could not marry a white, black (slave or a free person of color) or native American person. In fact they were often fined for having children "outside" the institution of marriage. They couldn't get married and they were fined for having children with the person with whom they wanted a family.

According to Lawrence Goldstone, if slaves had only been counted as property, South Carolina and Georgia would have walked out (Virginia would have not been pleased)--out of talks to form a union and if slaves had been counted as full, the Northern States would have done the same. The skew of representation to the South was obvious--slaves states were allotted twenty-five of the fifty-six seats. That was three seats short of half. The southern states were just over one-third of the free population

So they compromised. They compromised the lives of enslaved people. As I understand it the shippers in the north formed an alliance with southern slavers because they both could benefit from the continuation of the institution. They were negotiating navigation laws at the same time.

Looking at census schedules from a southern state before 1870 shows the name of owner of slaves in the left hand column followed by the number slaves that person owned. The columns on the right side of the schedule are mostly without a name but has the ages of slaves. It is like slaves only exist for the owner to have more representation. These documents are the official record of the United States.

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1849, please be aware that the commenter Glaivester is a known racist. This is his blog. Note the name of Steve Sailer toward the top. He is a very well known racist and self-proclaimed expert in evolutionary biology. He is also one of the main writers for that blog-scum Vdare. There are 93 results for Vdare in a search of the Southern Poverty Law Center website.

Just wanted you to know.

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Seashell! Thanks for pulling away the curtain. I was wondering why, after writing so much about the deceitful bombastic hysterical brouhaha of an unenlightened racist that a person would seize on the fact that I had cited the wrong court case. It puzzled me that someone so well-informed would say, "You got it wrong!", but then not contribute to making it right. But I suppose from that perspective, his intention was not to contribute to a conversation of this nature, one in which his agenda is so thoroughly discredited for its being grounded in an absolute falsehood. It all makes perfect sense now.

That bit about, Counting slaves as "full persons" would have done nothing but give the slaveowners more votes, as slaves would not have been allowed to vote anyway. was pretty disturbing too. If blacks had the right to vote, the government would have been obligated to protect that right for blacks, something the government only truly began to consider when the Civil Rights movement rose to greater prominence 100 years later.

As I read the last sentence, I was convinced there was definitely something wrong with the Commenter. Without saying it literally, because it would reveal the rancid truth of the Commenter, it seemed to want to say "we" would have stopped the slaves from voting. It's like this guy is lost in the ante-bellum South and fancies himself a southern gentleman with slaves and a plantation ready to mount his horse, draw his saber and fight the Civil War again. Some people just don't know when they have lost.

But the scent of a taunt with the remark "if you dislike slavery"? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA One would have thought after reading my post that question would be moot. Now that I know it comes from a racist, I can see it better for the desperate futile attempt of a delusional character reaching in vain for help that will never come. I emphatically and uncategoricallyt despise slavery and racism. I believe anyone who sees any "good" in slavery is a blithering idiot and hardly worth giving the time of day because one would need to say, "8:11 am PST, in the year of our Lord, 2009. The war ended 144 years ago and you lost."

Regarding race, I also believe that there are too many examples of extremely intelligent and industrious people of color to subscribe to any notion that one's race defines one's destiny. But that completely ignores the fundamental truth that racism is just plain wrong. In the end, however, none of these consideration would make a bit of difference to Glaivester. The only one that really matters is that it 2009 and we the people have decided that we will do everything in our power as a society to make race irrelevant when giving any consideration to who is free and are we equal. YES WE ARE!!!*

*Note: I kind of went all Yoda here. "NO! Try not! Do! Or do not. There is no try"

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DANG IT! I CLICKED TOO SOON!!!

Here's the link from Star Wars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2yKze0iu-U

My point is that in regards to race, until we declare the fight is over, it continues. The argument has been resolved regarding race, but some people still do not yet accept it. In this case, we do still have a conflict, but it is with a very isolated and marginalized faction. That is why I would not say, YES WE CAN. We already have. YES WE ARE. The kitchen is pretty much clean. We just have to sweep a few crumbs off the counters.

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Boy, you are misinterpreting me here something fierce.

(a) By "If you dislike slavery," I meant "in the context of opposing slavery." I was not suggesting that there was some question of whether or not someone should dislike slavery or implying that I liked slavery or found slavery reasonble (I don't and I don't).

(b) That bit about, Counting slaves as "full persons" would have done nothing but give the slaveowners more votes, as slaves would not have been allowed to vote anyway. was pretty disturbing too. If blacks had the right to vote, the government would have been obligated to protect that right for blacks,

You make a good point. If slaves had been allowed to vote freely (i.e. such that they did not fear retribution from their masters for voting for someone the master opposed) then the 3/5ths compromise would have beeb unfair to them, as it would have diluted their voting power.

However, at the time the 3/5ths compromise was reached, there was no question that slaves would not be allowed to vote. You may argue that those Founders who (rightly) opposed slavery should have fought to get slaves the right to vote, but at the time the people who opposed it were too powerful for their will to be overcome.

Given that slaves were not to be allowed to vote in any case, counting slaves as "full persons" for the purpose of Congressional representation would have done nothing but increased the Congressional representation of those in slave states who were allowed to vote, i.e. slaveowners and other whites.

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It certainly wasn't good for the individuals counted as three-fifths or sixty-percent of a person.

First, let's be clear. The only sense in which the 3/5ths compromise counted slaves as 3/5ths of a person is in terms of determining the size of a state's Congressional delegation. The 3/5ths compromise was about counting persons for purposes of Congressional representation, it had nothing to do with the metaphysical personhood of slaves. Given that free blacks were to be counted 100% toward Congressional delegation, it is obvious that in metaphysical terms, blacks were considered persons, and that the rationalization from slavery was based on other grounds than a denial of black personhood.

It was only good for the South according to Lawrence Goldstone in Dark Bargin because that region of the country would be over-represented in the upper chamber of Congress

Only if you compare it to not counting slaves at all. I was comparing it to counting slaves as full persons for the purpose of Congressional represnetation.

Whether the 3/5ths compromise was good or bad for the South depends on what you are comparing it to. Definitely it was better for the South than not counting slaves at all, but it was not as good for the South as counting slaves fully toward Congressional representation would have been.

What you are apparently arguing is that slaves should not have been counted as persons at all. If you are going to argue that, then you shouldn't be simultaneously arguing that the 3/5ths compromise degraded slaves' personhood, because if it did, you are effectively arguing that their personhood should be denied.

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First seashell thanks for the heads-up

I said:It certainly wasn't good for the individuals counted as three-fifths or sixty-percent of a person.

First, let's be clear. The only sense in which the 3/5ths compromise counted slaves as 3/5ths of a person is in terms of determining the size of a state's Congressional delegation. The 3/5ths compromise was about counting persons for purposes of Congressional representation, it had nothing to do with the metaphysical personhood of slaves. Given that free blacks were to be counted 100% toward Congressional delegation, it is obvious that in metaphysical terms, blacks were considered persons, and that the rationalization from slavery was based on other grounds than a denial of black personhood.

So what you are saying is that black people could be counted for the purpose of representation but they could not participate in the civil and sometimes religious life of the state or the country in which they help build . This gave them personhood?

I said: It was only good for the South according to Lawrence Goldstone in Dark Bargin because that region of the country would be over-represented in the upper chamber of Congress

Only if you compare it to not counting slaves at all. I was comparing it to counting slaves as full persons for the purpose of Congressional represnetation.

I am comparing it to living the United States as a free person. I am looking at the whole picture; being counted, and being able to live a free legal life--voting, marriage, property rights, family rights--in the place they help build and secure liberty.


Whether the 3/5ths compromise was good or bad for the South depends on what you are comparing it to. Definitely it was better for the South than not counting slaves at all, but it was not as good for the South as counting slaves fully toward Congressional representation would have been.

It is like someone showing up for a shift at work, claiming they are doing work but in fact they are watching someone do the heavy lifting on a ten hour shift. From all appearances it looks like the person who showed to watch person doing the heavy lifting is doing the work but in fact they are stealing the actual workers labor.

What you are apparently arguing is that slaves should not have been counted as persons at all. If you are going to argue that, then you shouldn't be simultaneously arguing that the 3/5ths compromise degraded slaves' personhood, because if it did, you are effectively arguing that their personhood should be denied.

Yes I should argue that it degraded the slaves because without this advantage the south saw the writing on the wall that they could not continue to perpetuate the institution; they actual panicked after they negotiated because knew this was only a temporary fix until they came up with business arrangements with the north continue the institution. There was no way they would have had the votes in Congress to sustain it if representation was strictly limited to a free white population. They agreed to this arrangement knowing full well that they were going have to import more slaves to swell the numbers seats they had as a result of the three-fifths compromise. It actually happened.


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By God, are you thick-headed.

Try to comprehend this:

The 3/5ths compromise stated that when counting toward Congressional apportionment, people who were enslaved would only be counted at 3/5ths of their actual population (e.g. a populatiuon of 1 million freemen and 500,000 slaves would be counted as 1,300,000 for purposes of representation.

If the slaves were freed, they would immediately count fully toward representation.

In essence, the 3/5ths compromise imposed a 40% penalty in Congressional representation for enslaving a person.

So far from telling blacks that they were "only 3/5ths of a person" the compromise told slave states that they would suffer a 40% penalty for every resident they enslaved.

Yes I should argue that it degraded the slaves because without this advantage the south saw the writing on the wall that they could not continue to perpetuate the institution;

Again, you are arguing that counting slaves at all degraded them, not that it degraded them to count them at a 40% discount.

I am comparing it to living the United States as a free person. I am looking at the whole picture; being counted, and being able to live a free legal life--voting, marriage, property rights, family rights--in the place they help build and secure liberty.

Irrelevant to the discussion, which is not over whether or not slavery was degrading (it was) but over whether or not it was degrading to slaves not to count them fully for census purposes. Note that the 3/5ths rule only applied to slaves, so that living as a free person automatically got you counted fully.

The 3/5ths compromise did not preserve slavery, slavery was not going to be abolished at that time no matter what. In fact, in terms of Congressional representation, it gave states an incentive to free their slaves.

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Women were counted as 5/5th of a person for representation purposes, but did not have the vote.

But yes, people don't get that the 3/5th was a Northern initiated arrangement to lower Southern political strength, not a Southern comment about the value of a black person's life. Given the South's druthers, they would have counted slaves as 5/5th for electoral purposes too.

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Looking at census schedules from a southern state before 1870 shows the name of owner of slaves in the left hand column followed by the number slaves that person owned. The columns on the right side of the schedule are mostly without a name but has the ages of slaves. It is like slaves only exist for the owner to have more representation.

Yes, that was the political situation at the time, which is why counting slaves as "full people"* for the purpose of Congressional representation would have only given the owner more representation.

*In case I am not being clear, "counting slaves as 'full people'" in this context means counting a state's population as the number of free people plus the total number of slaves (as opposed to counting the state's population as the number of free people plus 3/5ths the number of slaves) when it comes time to apportion Congressional seats. It has nothing to do with whether or not slaves would have full political, economic, and human rights, which was not under discusson at the time, and could not have reasonably been accomplished until after the anti-slavery side had become much more powerful.

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which was not under discusson at the time, and could not have reasonably been accomplished until after the anti-slavery side had become much more powerful.

This is incorrect. When the sundry of states were negotiating to re-write the Articles of Confederation in the summer of 1787, Virginia--yes Virginia of all places--was in the midst of cutting all ties with the slavery. That means importation of slaves and the institution of slavery. They were working on scheme to deport all people of color from the country of Virginia. So it was being discussed.

Furthermore, the Southern States--namely South Carolina and Georgia-- came to the table knowing that slavery was non-starter in negotiations that is why the came up with a compromise to count only a portion of slaves.

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This is incorrect. When the sundry of states were negotiating to re-write the Articles of Confederation in the summer of 1787, Virginia--yes Virginia of all places--was in the midst of cutting all ties with the slavery. That means importation of slaves and the institution of slavery. They were working on scheme to deport all people of color from the country of Virginia. So it was being discussed.

First of all, if this is accurate, Virginia was not discussing giving slaves full economic, political, and human rights. It was discussing getting rid of them.

Secondly, though, my point was not that there was no one interested in abolishing slavery, or that there were no plans to abolish slavery in certain territories and states. It's that there was no serious discussion of abolishing slavery throughout the United States, and that it would not have been possible at the time for those who opposed slavery to force all of the Southern states to free their slaves.

Furthermore, the Southern States--namely South Carolina and Georgia-- came to the table knowing that slavery was non-starter in negotiations that is why the came up with a compromise to count only a portion of slaves.

I don't see how this undermines my assertion that the southern states freeing their slaves en masse and giving them full rights was not under discussion. The slave states may have not had the power to push their preferred policy through the Constitutional convention, but the free states did not at the time have the power to abolish slavery in states that did not want slavery abolished.

It seems to me that a compromise that convinced the slave states to join the union was ultimately in the best interest of the slaves (or at least their posterity). By getting the slave states to join, the stage was set so that the free states could eventually force the slave states to abandon slavery. In the absence of a union between the slave and free states, it would have been much harder for the free states to push policies that led to the end of slavery in the slave states.

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The 3/5ths compromise stated that when counting toward Congressional apportionment, people who were enslaved would only be counted at 3/5ths of their actual population (e.g. a populatiuon of 1 million freemen and 500,000 slaves would be counted as 1,300,000 for purposes of representation.

So why did the south continue to import slaves and want extra time beyond the expiration year of 1808 if it was so much of a disadvantage for them?

Not

If the slaves were freed, they would immediately count fully toward representation.

I am sure my comment that the of the lack of legal, social and other rights covers that assertion.

In essence, the 3/5ths compromise imposed a 40% penalty in Congressional representation for enslaving a person.

So far from telling blacks that they were "only 3/5ths of a person" the compromise told slave states that they would suffer a 40% penalty for every resident they enslaved.

Again, if this was such a disadvantage why did the south continue to import slaves? The population kept increasing beyond what one might expect by natural births. Let's see, slaves weren't picking cotton fast enough and tilling the tobacco fields at a rate sufficient for southern plantation owners; and they could increase their numbers in representation national government as well. It was advantageous for the south to continue business as usual even expand.

It seems to me that a compromise that convinced the slave states to join the union was ultimately in the best interest of the slaves (or at least their posterity). By getting the slave states to join, the stage was set so that the free states could eventually force the slave states to abandon slavery. In the absence of a union between the slave and free states, it would have been much harder for the free states to push policies that led to the end of slavery in the slave states.

Puh-lease! It was in the best interest of the business; namely indigo, tobacco and cotton.

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Sigh, we stole the spinning wheel idea from England, and Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin in the 1790's, thus suddenly making the cotton industry attractive in the short time after the Constitution was agreed upon. Virginia was less of a cotton state than those further south. By the time 1808 came around, the South's economic landscape and outlook had shifted, 10 short years.

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Look under land speculation and the Ohio Company. Lewis and Clark had already been to the West Coast. It was called the Oregon Territory. The Northwest Territory was just a hop, skip and jump across the Ohio River.

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[That giving blacks full political, economic, and human rights was not under discussion at the time the Constitution was written] is incorrect. When the sundry of states were negotiating to re-write the Articles of Confederation in the summer of 1787, Virginia--yes Virginia of all places--was in the midst of cutting all ties with the slavery. That means importation of slaves and the institution of slavery. They were working on scheme to deport all people of color from the country of Virginia. So it was being discussed.

You do understand that throwing all black people out of Virginia and forcibly resettling them in Africa is not what I was referring to when I talked about "giving them full political, economic, and human rights," don't you?

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It's that there was no serious discussion of abolishing slavery throughout the United States, and that it would not have been possible at the time for those who opposed slavery to force all of the Southern states to free their slaves.

That's interesting. Look at the Northwest Ordinance where it was the wish to have new states without slavery. No?

You do understand that throwing all black people out of Virginia and forcibly resettling them in Africa is not what I was referring to when I talked about "giving them full political, economic, and human rights," don't you?

You do understand that the very people they were trying to throw out were members of white families. Hmm! that's interesting too. Though, it was not to be talked about in the so-called polite society.


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"Northwest Ordinance" = "Throughout the United States"?

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Look under land speculation and the Ohio Company. Lewis and Clark had already been to the West Coast. It was called the Oregon Territory. The Northwest Territory was just a hop, skip and jump across the Ohio River.

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Correction: Lewis and Clark didn't begin their adventures until the Louisiana Purchase.

Northern states began the process of outlawing slavery; for example the city of Philadelphia during the run-up to re-writing of the Articles of Confederation wanted--I didn't say accomplished --to outlaw slaves in its midst because was embarrassing to have foreign dignitaries in a place claiming liberty for all.

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You do understand that the very people they were trying to throw out were members of white families. Hmm! that's interesting too. Though, it was not to be talked about in the so-called polite society.

Which is totally irrelevant to the topic we were arguing about, which is whether or not there was any serious consideration of banning slavery throughout the U.S.

Please try to stay on topic.

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Let me spell it out for you in nice simple words.

Having the Constitution explicitly prohibit slavery throughout the entire United States was not possible at the time and was not under serious discussion.

Individual states and cities abolished slavery, there was a great effort to prevent the spread of slavery into new territories and colonies, a lot of people wanted to work towards the eventual abolishment of slavery.

However, at the time the Constitution was written, there was no serious discussion of the Federal government immediately abolishing slavery throughout every state and forcing slave states to free their slaves; nor was this possible.

Do you understand what I am saying?

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That's interesting. Look at the Northwest Ordinance where it was the wish to have new states without slavery. No?

How does that refute my point that abolishing slavery throughout the U.S. (i.e. in every state, forcing the freeing of slaves in states that had slavery nad not allowing any new slave states anywhere in the U.S.) wsa not under serious discussion at the time?

No one's arguing that slavery was legal everywhere at the time or that restrictions on slavery were out of the question. I'm arguing that freeing all of the slaves in the U.S. was not under discussion at the time.

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Wonder what the wounded count is really in Iraq and Afghanistan? Then let's see how many were wounded while black, such that the wounds can be seen, anyway. Grrrrrrrrrrr. This new keyboard might not make it either. It's covered but I'm ready to throw it at the wall.

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When I was in the nation's capitol a few years ago I made sure that I went to two places: the National Archives and the African American Civil War Museum. I went to the National Archives to see if I could add to the collection of records I already had (have) and to the African American Civil War Museum to see some of the artifacts from that period. I was too much in hurry to do any real research at the National Archives but I had time to locate my great grand uncles in the register of United States Colored Troops. I wanted to talk to the curator of the museum but he was doing an interview. I am one their email list and I have working on an genealogy chart to include in their collect. The museum request that visitors submit their genealogy chart to become part of the record.

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Awesome! That is totally awesome. All my peeps came at the turn of the 20th century on the boats through Ellis Island from E. Europe. To guys like Buchanan, we're just a bunch of pollacks.

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Nice
Gregor

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Nice job Gregor!

I watched that bombast. Actually, I think that his diatribe (and the article he wrote) are staged. The R party is apparently trying to fire "the base" by more calls to white unity. Racist - certainly. Nuts? Hardly. Will it work? Depends on how many unstable folks you want to push over the edge. However, that has not troubled the Republican party in decades.

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You may want to give my prior post a read.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/gregorzap/2009/07/keeping-racism-alive-and-well.php#comments

They are pursuing a dwindling demographic if they are going after racists. This is now and shall ever more be a multi-cultural nation. Sure, in the Mid-West there are pockets of purity, but there's no future catering to those who believe in the decidedly false proposition of racial entitlement or superiority. "The Base" is not growing, but shrinking, which does not dispute what you are proposing, it simply predicts it's future lack of success.

If they were watching the numbers, they would flow with them, not against them, but if they believe that immature salmon story about how only dead fish go with the flow, then they have determined their destiny.

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Wow, Rowan and GZ - I might believe the staged thing of most people, but not Pat Buchanan. He's been beating this drum since he was a Nixon aide. And he was so visibly angry while talking to Rachel that it's hard to believe that was staged.

Of course, in his eyes the racism is all reversed and it's white males that are the victims, while minorities are snatching what is rightfully theirs under the auspices of Affirmative Action. So his isn't ugly racism, it's God and Country (and guns!) racism, or so he seems to believe.

He literally called Frank Ricci a poor white victim of reverse discrimination (RD). (At that point I had a vision of poor black lynched victims hanging on a rope and almost threw up.) I also noticed that he concentrated on poor white working folks as the real victims of RD, and that is the part that I do think is politically staged. After all, how many poor white working males are vying for the job of Supreme Court Justice right now?

As GZ mentioned, Pat seems to believe that AA continues its nasty work in colleges long past admission. He said that people accepted under the AA plan were also graded under the AA plan. That has not been my understanding of AA.

I wonder if we can somehow get Princeton to explain their exact AA protocols after someone is admitted. Is there a grading curve? Was Sotomayor graded on a curve? I don't expect it to change Buchanan's mind, but it would probably help set others at ease, if (when) it turns out that AA stops at the admittance door.

Didn't Josh Marshall go to Princeton?

What do you all think?

Cellophane on the keyboard?

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Gregor and Seashell:

The following rules for honors awards at Princeton was taken directly from the transcript of a Princeton undergraduate who graduated, cum laude, in 1968:

"Honors: Honors are awarded to a student on the vote of his department. Departments elect to award honors either on the basis of the thesis and comprehensive examination or on the basis of all studies completed with distinction in the department ...."


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Wendy, THANK YOU so much for this information. So Pat is wrong that her honors were based on AA grading curves. I know he thinks that it's all wink - wink from the "AA devils" that seem to populate admissions offices in the best schools (in his opinion), but this info goes a long way towards debunking yet another untruth from this racist!

Thanks again!

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Hey Gregor . . .

Buchanan is a perfect example of a plate of mashed potatoes in search of it's gravy.

~OGD~

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As someone who is in part Jesuit educated, I am outraged that Buchanan is as well. How little effect they had on his moral center (such as it may be) during that time.

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Lets not forget the magnificent Black Sheep Squadron.

http://www.acepilots.com/aces214.html

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Yeah, right! hahahaha

Kind of not related to the post. I did not notice if any of those pilots were black, but I think not.

Relevant to the post one might reference this website, however. You know, before Mr. Buchanan asserts only whites fought in WWI.

http://themidnightdj.tripod.com/wwi.htm

BUt if you want to discuss black pilots, then the best reference for that would be the famous Tuskegee Airmen. For your edification, you might click hereh.

http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_tusk.html

One has to wonder whether, given the outstanding performance of the black air group, whether we might have had even greater success with more black pilots, instead of limiting our resources to white pilots only. Clearly, precluding blacks from participation limited the number of pilots we had, regardless of whether they were better or worse, impirically. But the fact of the matter is that, not having any other examples then the Tuskegee airmen, we can only assume they were better. But we all know what happens when we assume. Let's just call it an opportunity lost and a tragedy, because better air support would have saved lives and ended the war sooner.

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My apologies, you are so correct. The Tuskegee Airmen is the group I was referencing. A friend, trying to get me out the door, gave me the wrong info and I linked to it in error. Thank you for the correction

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Johnnienohands, my response was probably over the top because this issue has me in such a fury. I am keeping the cellophane on the keyboard so I don't lose another one. LOL. I'm glad you wanted to bring the Tuskeegee Airmen into the conversation. It certainly helps to deflate the Buchanan's subtle notion that if blacks were not the lion's share of those killed and wounded at Normandy they should be discounted.

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No problem, MY ERROR WAS HUGE.

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Read your history. There might have been up to 300,000 blacks in all the services, but they fought very few conflicts relatively, and mostly only later in the war.

http://www.genealogyforum.com/gfaol/resource/Military/CWNegroTroops.htm

According to Livermore, 97,598 colored troops were called from the territories and Southern states and "all but one regiment enrolled after 1862" ( Livermore, 50n ). "Of the regiments brought into action," Fox points out, "only a few were engaged in more than one battle; the war was half over, and so the total of killed does not appear as great as it otherwise would have done. The total number killed or mortally wounded in the colored troops was 143 officers and 2,751 men. The officers were white." The first colored regiment to be engaged in combat was the 79th US Colored Infantry (First Kansas) at Island Mounds, MO on October 28, 1862. In the assault on Port Hudson, LA on May 27, 1863, colored troops were used for the first time in a general engagement. On June 7, 1863 the colored garrison was attacked by Walker's division at Millikens Bend, LA. and retained their postion after hand to hand fighting. Colored troops next participated in Gillmore's unsuccessful assault on Fort Wagner, SC. on July 18, 1863. The 54th Mass. led the attack and lost 272 out of 650 engaged, including their commander. One of the most severe regimental losses of the war accurred in the 8th U.S.C.I. at Olustee, FL on February 20, 1864. This regiment later distinguished itself at Chafin's farm. Ferrero's 4th Div., IX Corps, was the first Negro unit to serve with the Union army in VA. It was not committed to action until the ill-fated Petersburg Mine Assault on July 30, 1864, where the misguided interference of Meade and Grant with Burnside's plans led to their being butchered. Hinks's division, XVIII Corps, made up entirely of Negro regiments, made a successful attack on the Petersburg defenses on June 15, 1864. Paine's colored division of XVIII Corps and William Birney's Col. Brig. of X Corps, about 10,000 total strength, were actively engaged in the action at Chafin's Farm on September 29, 1864. At Darbytown Road, VA, on October 27, 1864, the 29th Conn. C.I. performed good service. Two colored brigades took part in the battle of Nashville, TN. on December 15, 1864. The 13th U.S.C.I. lost 221 men in its assault on Overton Hill, which was the greatest regimental loss of the battle. At Honey Hill, SC on November 30, 1864, a colored regiment, the 55th Mass., had the highest casualties: 144 men. Fox, from whom the above is paraphrased, lists the following additional battles in which Negro troops were prominently engaged:

Of the battles then listed, Appomattox is the only one you're likely to have heard of.

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Did you miss the part about the movie Glory? It was nominated for five Academy Awards and won three. Here's the movie website on Wikipedia for all the gory Glory details.

The battle of Fort Wagner and the Battle of the Crater were known to me, but I appreciate your bringing all these other examples of when black soldiers contributed to the war effort.

Question? Does the fact that they only fought late in the war somehow mean they were less dead? Or their contribution less significant? IS there some suggestion that the blacks were not eager to fight in the Civil War? The only thing holding back the blacks were the whites because of some absurd notion, never actually proven in any time or place in history, that blacks would not achieve any level of success. History has proven that wrong, time and again.

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Uh, it means their contribution was less significant. Isn't that obvious? If you fight 5 battles and I fight one, your contribution is greater. There were many reasons for this, but Buchanan's still pretty much right, it was all whites at Gettysburg (if that was the battle he mentioned).

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Maybe we an agree that he mentions Gettysburg by listening to the video? I'm not willing to compromise on that. The man said Gettysburg.

Funny thing is, of all anamolies, I found a reference on the web that it is possible that there was a black soldier on the field at Gettysburg, armed and ready to fight ... for the South!!!

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Therefore, if the guy who has 5 battles gets more to say about the guy who has one, then the guy who didn't ever fight in any battles, Pat BUchanan, should STFU. I can agree with that logic!

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Oh, and I realize you were simply trying to save space when you cut off after the colon, but before the information the colon preceded was introduced, and I agree it was better not to use that much space. Still I think it worth noting that the "additional battles in which Negro troops were prominently engaged:" amounted to 33 engagements above and beyond those above- indicated.

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LindaMuller at Buchanan.org
is the email at Pat's website for contacting him.

You may also want to check out this blog for definitive refutation of the Vicksburg comment:

Pat Buchanan: Worst Shameless Bigot in the World

And a book called African Americans in the Gettysburg Campaign, by James M. Paradis, "dispels the myth that no black men fought or were killed defending Gettysburg from the Confederate invasion."

And BTW, Pat Buchanan never served in the military, during peace or war. I know a lot of white veterans who'd be interested to know about Mr. Buchanan's deliberate attempt to erase and tarnish the service of their comrades.

I sent an email to Linda Muller at the email above. It ended like this:
Please be careful in the future when playing with fire. FAIL and go back to Jesuit school for some lessons in morality, ethics, and HISTORY.

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Even if the book "dispels the myth", if it's commonly accepted history that no blacks fought at Gettysburg, then this is irrelevant to Buchanan. I grew up talking about 9 planets in the Solar System, and just because we chucked Pluto out of the club, it was way tiny an had a different orbit, doesn't mean I was off my rocker using the scientific standard of the time.

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This is not about our believing our solar system was believed to have 9 plants when you were a child. This is about growing up and realizing there are, infact, only eight planets in the orbit of this Sun.

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So he says "almost 100%" for Gettysburg rather than "100%". It doesn't change the issue, which is that we need affirmative action in some fashion, and he's making the case that discrimination in affirmative action is equal to the original discrimination, that an injustice towards one equals an injustice towards millions.

But people are going to argue with him instead whether American history and society up through WWII was almost exclusively determined around the actions of white males. Next thing we'll be having that discussion about whether anything industrially significant came out of George Washington Carver's peanut efforts. Talk about fighting from a swamp.

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Okay, folks, the arguments here or by Rachel aren't that convincing.

Try a few classics. Jackie Robinson was "Affirmative Action", by Brooklyn Dodgers owner Branch Rickey. Robinson was a great ball player. Though he might not have been the best of the Negro Leagues? Why not? Because Rickey wasn't looking for the best black player - he was looking for a great player *AND* one who could take being spit on and cursed at and spike and a host of other indignities.

Just one simple example that you can rarely just open up human structures and they equalize like a machine would. Water and electricity aren't biased, don't have memory. People are and do.

The problem re: Alan Backey is that we don't have a satisfactory solution. We do end up having to discriminate to some degree for some amount of time in many many cases. And it sucks to be on the other side of discrimination always. Even if you excuse it with trying to correct hundreds of years of injustice, someone will have their life ruined, their opportunities blocked.

And then there's the blindness we have to other people's discrimination. Men often don't see or understand sexual discrimination, often see "just joking" where a woman sees and senses an imbalance of power. Same for racial issues. So if white men continue to make all the decisions, they can likely continue to discriminate even while being new thinkers, simply because their perspective doesn't extend well enough to women and racial minorities.

Regarding the Court, we've put politicians on the court before - non-judges. Buchanan is big on written decisions now, but if I recall correctly with Alito and Roberts, his buddies tried to find people without a lot of written opinions to refer to. In short, it's all about politics, not any real concern about legal standards. It's quite possible we have too many bookworms on the Court and not enough who can synthesize. And then we have Clarence Thomas who's basically useless for judicial opinion, just a predictable vote. This doesn't seem to bother Buchanan either.

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And it sucks to be on the other side of discrimination always. Even if you excuse it with trying to correct hundreds of years of injustice, someone will have their life ruined, their opportunities blocked.

No Des. Having your life ruined is when you are hanging by rope from a tree, put there by a lynch mob. Having to perhaps go to your second choice law school is a disappointment for a while. Considering that the 2nd choice is probably another 1st tier law school, opportunities are not all that blocked, either. Blocked opps come from poorly funded elementary and high schools and over-worked teachers and poverty at home that is endless and grinding. No summer camps, no tutors, no swimming pools in country clubs. It's working at a low paying job on a roof in 95 degree weather so you can advance to ????

Buchanan is full of shit about the poor white working people suffering from reverse discrimination. When is the last time you saw a poor white working man vying to be a Supreme Court Justice. The ones who are normally hurt are the ones who just sorta automatically expect to get in to the law school of their choice, because they are the privileged. And by the God in their America, they should never suffer a disappointment because of a low class minority woman from the Bronx. It's not fair, you know.

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No, there you're just assuming that white people always have a great backup plan, that if they don't get one position they just find a similar one. In terms of grad school applications, it might be that way, it might not. Someone may only have the money to go to a nearby school. They may have to switch careers or if it's for a scholarship they may just have to give up. Sure, in general whites have more opportunity, but callously assuming they don't need the position, that it's just a cherry on the top, one of a dozen possibilities, while blacks are still dealing with lynching, nope, this is the framing that gets whites pissed off.

People's lives can be ruined by lack of access to a particular school, particular training at the right time, a certain job whether just to tide them through a tough spot with no money or to cement their careers. And we're agreed that blacks usually have it more difficult in many areas (though I don't suppose Malia and Sasha or Michael Jackson's kids will suffer too badly). If my dream is to be a fire fighter, or a dancer, or a cellist, there are so many positions in any town. If I can move, more access. But if my spouse has a job or for some other reason, then my choices are limited. Having that choice further limited by the color of my skin or ethnic group, whether white or black or latino or Arab or Asian, still sucks. We try to distinguish between lack of opportunity vs. just ethnic group in improving the situation, but we don't always succeed. We do what we have to do to try to make our society equitable, but belittling the dreams and aspirations of those who suffer from this omelette is no way to go.

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American History is simple but not for simpletons like Buchanan. It is 100% not 100% anything.

Take the Great African/Native American Patriot Crispus Attucks for instance:

"In 1770, Crispus Attucks, a black man, became the first casualty of the American Revolution when he was shot and killed in what became known as the Boston Massacre. Although Attucks was credited as the leader and instigator of the event, debate raged for over as century as to whether he was a hero and a patriot, or a rabble-rousing villain."
-From PBS' Africans in America

"And to honor Crispus Attucks who was the leader and voice that day: The first to defy, and the first to die, with Maverick, Carr, and Gray. Call it riot or revolution, or mob or crowd as you may, such deaths have been seeds of nations, such lives shall be honored for aye..."
-John Boyle O'Reilly


I don't think this poet anticipated the likes of Bill-O and Buchanan when he wrote those words to honor the Attucks memorial in Boston in 1888.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crispus_Attucks

Or perhaps he wrote this as a pre-emptive to the then and future human fail of bigotry.

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Really, are you going to follow Buchanan back through history looking for a few black characters? Hey, I think we know blacks were marginalized - that's the whole point. That is why 108 out of 110 justices were/are white, why 108 out of 110 are men. Arguing with Buchanan on this is a dead end. The real issue is that affirmative action works, and is needed, but has to have limits, that without affirmative and special attention to long-term entrenched racial problems, then we'd still have Jim Crow laws and a host of historical inequities. So one white guy gets denied grad school after millions of blacks were denied basic school. Yeah, it sucks, but not near as much as continuing the old practice. Balance it out after a while - it's called righting historical wrongs, but without destroying a sense of fairness.

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The point is not to argue with Buchanan, but to dismantle his argument and illustrate the lies he needs to justify his argument. Your right, though, and you are on the porch of the next argument, the one in favor of affirmative action. As I think of this, I have a vision of that R-Kansas telling people Obama and Thomas might have been abortions if they wre readily available, or free. One could also say, wtihout the availability of Affirmative Action, we they might have lived but never risen to the position of power they now hold. Note: This is not an argument that Obama and Thomas both have a similar level of ability, but both have made the most of their opportunities.

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Very good, I was going to write "every time we cut an education program or other assistance, we also risk the loss of opportunity to millions of potential Obamas or Thurgood Marshalls". Of course we do that all the time - can't afford education and social programs, just TARP bailouts.

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You sound as reductive as Buchanan. This is not argument, this is scope. It would be impossible to follow Buchanan's history because it doesn't exist anywhere but on the points of his forked tongue.

Attucks is not a 'character' he is symbolic of the American characteristic, as is the pale, cowardly Buchanan. Marginalisation of the American mind is what's important here.

Buchanan's bigoted 'thesis' is legitimised by its projection from the fantastically shiny, broad and shallow platform that is cable television. He depends on ignorance to make his points. He doesn't need to be argued with but rejected wholesale and placed fittingly into that category of proudly ignorant american which despite its existence, America's greater ideals still have a chance to thrive.

Argue the finer points of affirmative action with Pat Buchanan? Please. Reflecting on and reaffirming who we truly are is to me, much more edifying and useful.

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It's not "the finer points" - it's the basic principle. But he goads you into arguing against "the sky is blue" (yes, of course at night it's black) instead of simply insisting that affirmative action is necessary. In fact, you end up arguing against yourself by pretending that black participation in the historical events he mentions was anything more than marginal. The real answer is, "Yes, you're right, Pat, even though blacks have been here for hundreds of years, American History and Politics is almost completely 100% white. Even 100 years after the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation and the 13th-15th Amendments this was true. So obviously the situation was not just going to fix itself, whites were not just going to relax attitudes, blacks were not just going to apply themselves, hop into school, hop into good jobs. Even with the Civil Rights Act, with government enforcement of laws on the books (pushed by black protests and black legal actions from the likes of MLK and Thurgood Marshall) it didn't just happen. So to get past the water cannons, the German Shepherds, the severe economic disparities and the permanently tilted playing field, some measures have been required to counter this. Affirmative Action is only one part. It's not the goal, it's a tool, and while we may misuses the tool occasionally and our use of the tool will become more skilled over time, that doesn't mean the tool or approach is fatally flawed. And if you use a word such as "horrid" to not differentiate between Alan Basky missing out on one grad school slot out of hundreds available, vs. black kids not being able to go to a real school, one with whites where there are books and resources, or blacks denied jobs continuously for a hundred years just because of their skin color, then your command of English vocabulary is extremely taxed. They are not synonymous situations, not even the slightest. I have sympathies for Alan Basky, and would like to make sure he's taken care of, but I have sympathies for millions of blacks in more dire straits.

There was once a sci-fi movie where aliens had kidnapped 3 children, so the leader of Earth decided to surrender the planet so as not to have the 3 children harmed. It seems ludicrous, laughable, insane, but then the Republican attitude towards Affirmative Action is built on the same weird, absurd premise. Hey, 3 white people got hurt, so let's ignore the plight of tens of millions of blacks!!!

These small cases where a white person gets burned do not rise to the level of "horrid" in the same way that does blacks prevented from voting and participating fully in American government, society, industry, power. The Ricci case is a red herring, but indicative of the difficulties that Affirmative Action brings, because it is implemented by flawed commoners, not by skilled trained surgeons. Affirmative Action can be a scalpel or a chain saw - a lawsuit where blacks are denied promotions is likely a finer-tuned response than integrating the military full stop.

The case of Ricci v. New Haven seems at heart 1 thing - a misplaced emphasis on a testing process only vs. a balanced approach that includes performance on the job, character and team leading skills, comfort with typical tasks. And it points out that likely blacks aren't as good at taking tests as whites. Oops, you may not know what I mean. Because I wasn't good at it either, until I'd failed my Masters' final. Because I assumed that I was supposed to work from my class texts, the lectures, the assignments. But after I failed my test, I discovered what fraternities had known for years - that there were hundreds of old exams available for every course, and the questions didn't change much year to year. I could have been a bigger drunk *AND* had a better GPA. Okay, that's only one part of Ricci. There's also the side tutoring special courses that it may have been more whites took, and I haven't seen a fair comparison on who spent more time on studying. I know I had a job opening I went for, with a list of criteria, and I spent weeks and well over a thousand dollars getting all the certification pieces in that I didn't have, finishing 6 or 7 Microsoft and other exams in 2 weeks. And then they decided to change the requirements for the announced position. This happens all the time, and historically if you're black, it's more likely to happen *against* you than *with* you. The fact remains in Ricci that there are fire departments around the country who manage to run promotion tests and evaluations without lawsuits, so one botched test should not be a huge change in legal precedent.

The arrogance that Affirmative Action is always better, always done well, should be avoided. There are dozens of examples where busing was counter-productive, often destroying the societies it was supposed to help integrate, with marginal benefit of access to resources and real gains for students. Of course making kids spend 2 or more hours on a bus each day would seem to be a huge, obvious flaw, but one that didn't seem to deter a particularly activist judge in Boston and ones elsewhere. That again doesn't mean busing can't be a good solution for some locales, it's just not a one-size-fits-all cornucopia for entrenched racial disparities in education.

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Dude, you're the goaded one. You've got me confused with the folks doing Vicksburg and Gettysburg research. He jolted you into suggesting that Rachel should have detailed Jackie Robinson's travails on the diamond as an adequate affirmative action defense. No. The basic principle is having a clear picture of who American's are and how we got to this point. When you genuflect and cede to him a gross distortion...
"...Yes, you're right, Pat, even though blacks have been here for hundreds of years, American History and Politics is almost completely 100% white." ...you have no ground in a bigot's mind to argue the 'finer points of affirmative action.'

The Buchanan's of the world depend on seeing a white past. It doesn't exist, so stop pretending with him that it does.

I concur with your practical points of exam efficacy, legacy knowledge banking (and cheating...see Bush), and yes detailing (you're arguing with yourself here) American History...

"enforcement of laws on the books (pushed by black protests and black legal actions from the likes of MLK and Thurgood Marshall) it didn't just happen. So to get past the water cannons, the German Shepherds, the severe economic disparities and the permanently tilted playing field, some measures have been required to counter this. Affirmative Action is only one part. It's not the goal, it's a tool, and while we may misuses [sic] the tool occasionally and our use of the tool will become more skilled over time, that doesn't mean the tool or approach is fatally flawed."

This is not pretending anything. You could have added that these very struggles made it easier for white women to more fully participate in society from jobs to the playing fields.

I will not accept Buchanan's worldview and then argue its reform, it seems you can't either.

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Isn't it ironic the Mr.Buchanan gets his dandruff up and he has never worn a uniform, let alone seen a battle field during a war.

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Again, you are arguing that counting slaves at all degraded them, not that it degraded them to count them at a 40% discount.

No you missed the point. Slavery degraded them period. It didn't matter if you--anyone for that matter--counted them as one-quarter, one-half or whole it, the business of trading human beings was odious.

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No you missed the point. Slavery degraded them period. It didn't matter if you--anyone for that matter--counted them as one-quarter, one-half or whole it, the business of trading human beings was odious.

FOCUS ON WHAT WE ARE ARGUING ABOUT, PLEASE. YOU'RE CONSTANTLY BRINGING UP ISSUES THAT ARE NOT GERMANE TO THE ARGUMENT.

Do you have attention deficit disorder, or do you just not care about making an argument in a linear fashion.

I'm not arguing that slavery is not degrading. I'm arguing about the constant assertion that the "3/5ths compromise" reduced slaves to "3/5ths of a human being." That assertion is wrong.

Apparently what you are complaining about is that the Constitution did not prohibit slavery. Fine. But understand that a Constitution that prohibited slavery would not have gained the support fo the Southern states and would have resulted in the U.S. either not being formed, or of it being formed only by the Northern states. The 3/5ths compromise was necessary to get the slave states to sign on, and my point is that, far from declaring slaves to be 3/5ths of a person, it reduced the power of the slave states from where it would have been had they been able to fully count their slaves.

Now I am sure that you are not going to pay attention or respond to anything I said and you are simply going to remind everyone how bad and hypocritical slavery was, completely ignorant of the fact that no one is disputing this.

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GregorZap

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