Taunting Christians - Part II
***Okay, I figured it out. I thought if I pressed "Enter" a couple of times in the Entry page it would take me to the body of the text. It publishes!!!! Sorry for the multiple posts.***
This post began while reading another post about Jack Tapper of ABC. You can find it here:
If you read the article Jack wrote here: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/06/abc-news-jake-tapper-and-sunlen-miller-report-the-other-day-we-heard-a-comment-from-a-white-house-aide-that-neverwould-have.html, you will find a comment on the blog, Posted by: Mark | Jun 4, 2009 12:06:54 PM
I don't know whether Barack Hussein Obama is Muslim or not, but I do know a direct, simple way to tell whether he is truly Christian or not: simply invite him to share his testimony of Jesus. A true follower of Jesus Christ will be made manifest by his fruits, as the Savior taught.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to fake a testimony of the Savior-especially to those who share such testimony! Let him tell us exactly WHY he is a Christian, and what it means TO HIM to be Christian. Tell us what is means TO HIM to have the Savior's Love and Mercy manifest in HIS life. If he has truly felt the Savior's love and healing power in his life, it will manifest itself in his testimony! So, Mr. Obama, tell ME what that Savior means to you. I'm listening!...
A few weeks ago I wrote a blog about Taunting Christians. Because this post was so aggressive, I thought I would bring it up to illustrate the point from my previous post. This is a classic example. This is how Christians taunt people, how they are bullying people by being overpowering and demanding. I'm not suggesting Mark has some Divine power in his tack. However, the framing does have an authoritarian tone, so to the unquestioning mind, they submit to this illusion of authority.
The first sentence has one major red flag, which I always bristle at when I hear someone suggest they have, especially after reading Socratees. Mark suggest that HE has the capacity to know if Obama is truly Christian. It is pretty darn arrogant to suggest that one has the key to knowledge of another's faith. That one can discern for that person what their faith is. I would suggest he take others at their word. That is unless there is some qualification about being Christian he wishes to impose on others and I question by what authority he believes that he has that capacity to the exclusion of any other, in particular the one who he is challenging.
Maybe Mark really means to say "I want to know if he is Christian enough, that Obama meets the criteria that he has for being a Christian. This kind of reasoning demands that others have to meet Mark's standards, which are extremely arbitrary. Prove to him that Obama is a Christian? I don't share Mark's perspective on this and I resent his suggestion that Obama answer to him. Mark is not the final authority on being Christian and it disrespects any other denomination's criteria of belief. As I wrote in a recent post about the murder of Dr. Tiller, if Obama is a Christian, then by his deeds we will know him, and it seems to me is deeds are speaking very eloquently in that regard. He need not respond to your provocation.
The post about Taunting Christians is here:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/gregorzap/2009/05/taunting-christians.php
The post about Dr. Tiller's murder is here:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/gregorzap/2009/06/a-slain-abortionist-satans-car.php
June 4, 2009 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
GZ -
I rec'd the post for most of the usual reasons.
But 'This is how Christians taunt people, how they are bullying people by being overpowering and demanding.' I take issue with. This infers that ALL Christians do this - didn't we have the conversation about generalities and same brush, etc.?
And Jack/Jake - a thorn by any other name is still a prick (thorn et al, or assume otherwise?!?).
Hope all is well in Oregon. Always appreciate you.
June 4, 2009 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess I missed my mark. I was trying to suggest that while Mark declares he is a Christian, he is only one kind of Christian with his own opinion about what makes one Christian. It flies in the face of what others believe and we should not believe what he is suggesting is at all valid or accurate, or represents all of Christendom.
June 4, 2009 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks.
June 4, 2009 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know, Auntie. I have been trying to get away from the inflammatory language, but I really want to say people who espouse crap like this are from the Christian Reich, taking a brown shirted attitude toward people who are not following their party line.
Mark's rant is meant to intimidate people and cause them to question their faith which, if they succumb to his challange, causes them to have to prove their faith in some way, perhaps by agreeing with him rather then risking their salvation. I want to find a way to discourage people from nodding in agreement with him, while respecting their right to believe. It's a conundrum.
June 4, 2009 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
But the great thing is you keep marchin' on! With vigor and conviction trying to speak out and reach out.
And it is needed and I so appreciate (as I've said before ad nauseum). You do great point/counter point! Please - don't stop.
June 4, 2009 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just a note on language:
"This infers that ALL Christians do this"
No it doesn't. At most it implies that this is the dominant mode by which taunting Christians taunt. It does not even suggest that ALL Christians are taunters, except if one grossly misreads it.
June 4, 2009 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks eds - I hope you feel better now, I know I do.
June 4, 2009 9:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I feel a bit like the janitor sometimes... but in this case a bit humorless since your language hit a couple of pet peeves of mine.
June 5, 2009 5:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well first, obviously why the hell should the president of a secular nation be expected to espouse their faith? It is a wrongheaded premise before you ever get into the Socratic issues.
On the larger point, I think it is certainly possible to tell when someone is being blatantly disingenuous. For example, politicians paying lip service to ideas they clearly care nothing about is a common theme here. So I do think it is *possible* to discern someone's basic connection to an issue by watching them talk about it. Where it gets more difficult is in those instances where someone talks a great game. There is no way to prove they mean it. The guy making the comment in question is clearly a moron.
But I agree with Aunt Sam. Painting with a broad brush and saying some asshole on a blog who uses religion as a weapon is representative of Christians is like saying Lieberman's bloody views on the implications of an Israeli state is representative of Jews.
June 4, 2009 2:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Israeli Lieberman ... not our own "Traitor Joe" (although his views on Israel are pretty harsh too).
June 4, 2009 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree, that sometimes a person cannot hide their lies, but in this case, it seems that even if Obama was rolling on the floor speaking in tongues and the skies opened up and the sun came down, Mark would still not believe. I see his provocation as a rigged game. The whole screed was to simply sow the seeds of doubt for their own sake.
June 4, 2009 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't buy into bad faith yourself here.
The legit issue is that no one person is qualified to judge the faith of another at a deep level. So Mark would go too far if he meant it that way.
Mark's valid if overstated point is that we are all qualified as bullshit detectors at least at some level.
June 4, 2009 4:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, 2000 years and there have been fine Christians, and terrible people who pretend they are Christian and those who are confused about their own belief system.
It is the cable show, Pat Robertson and the lot, who drive me up the wall. I get so mad. I mean to more than just intimate that off shore corps should not be taxed in the name of Jesu Christe...
And praying in front of a camera. I mean, come on.
Or praying on tv for the death of a 'liberal' jurist.
I have to remember the really fine followers of Christ.
Forgive the confused.
And battle the so-called christian soldiers who seek money and fame.
June 4, 2009 3:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dickday wrote "And battle the so-called christian soldiers who seek money and fame."
If people really knew what the scriptures say. these money changers would not have any credbility.
(Matthew 10:7-9) . . .As YOU go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’ 8 Cure sick people, raise up dead persons, make lepers clean, expel demons.
YOU received free, give free. 9 Do not procure gold or silver or copper for YOUR girdle purses. . .
As individuals, this scripture applies:
(Matthew 25:35-40) . . .For I became hungry and YOU gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and YOU gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and YOU received me hospitably; 36 naked, and YOU clothed me. I fell sick and YOU looked after me. I was in prison and YOU came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you?’ 40 And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.. . .
DON'T GIVE IT TO THESE ROBBERS, HELP THE PEOPLE DIRECTLY.
GregorZap don't taunt real Christians.
Knowing this scripture helps.
(Matthew 7:15-16) . . .“Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. . .
June 4, 2009 6:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excuse me, Sir, but who are you to define real Christians? You think because you throw out a few quotes you can tell me who to taunt? As if this post were about me? This post is about Christians who demand others prove their faith to them. I have faith and it is not for me to prove it to you. Frankly, it's none of your business, do not assume you should make it so.
June 4, 2009 8:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
It appears you are have a problem with rage.
The moment you decided to post your hate filled post you made it an open discussion. Otherwise why didn't you keep your business to yourself?
You wrote "I have faith and it is not for me to prove it to you."
(James 2:18) . . .Nevertheless, a certain one will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.. . .
You don't have to prove nothing to me your actions speak louder than words
Your work in this posting shows your faith.
What is your faith that promotes nothing but hatred, anger, rage, unreasonable behavior.
I wouldn't want to follow you or your faith.
June 4, 2009 11:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
As far as I'm concerned, you know a Christian by his/her actions.
There is a divide in the Christian Church concerning the matter of being saved. Some say once saved, always saved, others say you can lose your salvation by the way you live your life. We are never going to know for sure until we meet our maker face to face.
But I contend that you can, indeed, lose your salvation through your actions, and these right-wing whackos that go around spreading lies, tearing people down, murdering abortion providers, denying people the most basic of human rights (i.e. health care) and generally behave in a manner that I am SURE makes our Lord cringe had better start doing some serious soul searching. And if they are smart, they'll err in favor of believing they CAN lose their salvation, because it may help them to think twice before acting the way they act.
I love my Lord with all my heart, and the poor behavior of my fellow Christians is NEVER going to change that, but I am working up a serious case of being pissed off by the way many Christians are acting lately. I really dislike being judgmental, but IMHO they are doing more to hurt the cause of Christianity than any non-believer or militant from another religion ever could. If I was searching now, I'm not sure I would even give Christianity a second look, based on the words and actions of the high profile Christians these days.
June 4, 2009 11:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
stillidealistic Wrote: "I love my Lord with all my heart, and the poor behavior of my fellow Christians is NEVER going to change that, but I am working up a serious case of being pissed off by the way many Christians are acting lately.
You are not alone in that sentiment.
What I really don’t appreciate are those people who delight in attacking Christianity.
It’s easy to find poor behavioral Christians, and then put them up as strawmen to be attacked.
“See and these people call themselves Christians” HA
That’s ’s what I see when I read these types of blogs.
That’s why I use the words of the Apostles, not I being judgmental, but straight out of their writings their own words. They have every right to show or set a guide, in how to identify REAL CHRISTIANS. To keep the Congregation safe and pure, that was their assignment and all others seeking the righteous principles that should be adhered to should follow their examples.
As above, I was attacked for using the scriptures. Attacked for following the footsteps of the Christian faith.
Which shows me the true intent of this blog was nothing more than Taunting Christians just as he labeled his blog
So if some bloggers delight in attacking or TAUNTING the Christian faith, slyly working in their own taunting of the Real Christians, because of a few bad apples. Shoving our faces in it, as though they were the judges. Yet they probably could care less about the Christian faith, only looking for the bad apples as tools of ridicule.
June 5, 2009 12:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Are you calling only the righteous here? I thought JC was cliing someone else?
June 5, 2009 2:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, Resistance, how you assume.
Take a note, R. I am not attacking the Christian Faith. I am attacking the arrogance of those Christians, like Mark, who demand others cater to them and their perspective on Christianity. I am suggesting they are not being Christian in their actions, specifically taunting. You declare you are not being judgmental, but you are, and so am I. You assume I could care less about the Christian Faith. Untrue. But my understanding and yours are very different. Do you want to know about our differences? Just read Revelations. You see my attack as merely ridicule and are blind to its merits. Face the truth that these people are defiling the Christian faith in their heinous actions. Call them to account as I am.
In your comment above this you selected,
I would apply this to the horrendous behavior of those who brag about their faith while celebrating the death of Dr. Tiller, CELEBRATING THE DEATH!!!My proposition is this. Holding them responsible for their behavior, regardless of the actions of the doctor, does not make me any less of a Christian. I would suggest you consider the same. Revealing these wolves would not diminish your faith and I am disappointed that you would propose it does mine. This blog is going off the board and we should move forward. Peace.
June 5, 2009 1:53 AM | Reply | Permalink