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How to be Catholic and support torture. Step one: make logic your bitch


Crooks and Liars has a recurring bit called Mike's Blog Roundup, with quick links to various blogs in which Mike was interested, presumably. That itself has an occasionally recurring bit called HOLY CRAP, an even quicker list of links to various things about religion or by religious people, generally with the point of showing how fucked up they are. I am always fascinated by this and usually wind up with 20+ tabs in my browser when it's over, following the long and winding branches of the astonishing human ability to happily hold entirely opposite views in its head and passionately defend each of them, in the same sentence if necessary.

It was through today's Holy Crap that I came to read Beware of copying the Left by Bruce W. Green, founding dean of the Liberty University School of Law. In style, it reads like it's written by a pastor. In content, it reads like it's written by a drunk bully on a corner yelling at "the fags", but with a better proofreader. Shorter Green: We can't torture, because torturing would only play into the hands of liberals. So torture is evil and wrong -- but torture anyway.

That burnt hair smell you're getting is because of the sparks my brain is throwing off trying to understand that summary enough to make my point. Seriously, I can feel the mental resistance in typing it. Due to some internal hangups I have about looking foolish in public, I constantly re-evaluate any logic statements I make for correctness, lest someone point out some obvious flaw in my argument. Part of my brain refuses to sign off on my summary of his article, as it simply seems impossible to me that someone can put that forth as a logical argument. But it's really what he's saying.

It is in discovering this article in which I have decided I shall Fisk! Or write a fisk or enfisk the article or engage my fisk on the information superhighway, whatever the kids' slang might by these days. I didn't have the strength to do the whole article, though. Accept that he basically starts with the premise that being on the Left is not a political philosophy, so much as a cluster of malformed nerve cells at the top of the spinal column firing wildly in self-preservation in predictable reaction to certain stimuli.

Ah, actually, let me do some of that anyway. This first part just fires me up too much not to show it to you.


The Left--modern liberalism or socialism--is not a philosophy. It is merely the action implicit in the philosophy of utilitarianism. Utilitarianism is the view that the rightness of an act is determined by its results--and, liberalism/socialism slowly emerges from a pragmatic utilitarian philosophy of life. ... So, the Left, in adopting liberal and socialistic policies, does nothing more than act consistently with its foundational worldview--the rightness of action is determined by whether the results desired are in fact achieved by the action.

They're the filthiest sort of mindless baboons for whom the ends justify the means. Obviously they're just the kind of pricks who would torture. So torturing plays right into their hands. [zzt fzzt]

But, if liberalism is merely the action implicit in the philosophy of utilitarianism, how then do we explain the Left's apparent opposition to torture techniques? The answer may likely rest in their redefinition of the term and political motives, but, whatever the reason, rest assured that in this matter a liberal is simply a torturer without sufficient motivation and opportunity.

Hell, I don't know what liberals think. Who can? Might as well try to figure out the motivations of a redwood or a block of cheese. But I mean just look at 'em, they just want to torture things, you can tell.

Just rest assured. Ressssst asssurrrrred. There. Logic done! Man, I've totally kicked ass on this writing assignment. There's nearly no reason to continue further with my unassailable argument, but to be fair, they're paying me for a full column, so I might as well pad a bit. But really, I mean...that "rest assured" pretty much locked it up.

A Hollywood liberal, pontificating on the red carpet, or a quasi-socialist, elitist politician on the Washington, DC, cocktail circuit, easily rails against the evils of "torture". But, convince either of them that their own neighborhood will be annihilated in an hour by a nuclear blast unless the government acquires intelligence from a captured terrorist, and they will push each other aside getting in line to torture the poor soul into mindless mush. Why? Because deep in the recesses of their hearts and minds they believe the rightness of their actions is determined by the results of their acts.

In inventing a zero-dimensional character of the pontificating Hollywood liberal, I shall emply the full power of the Hollywood writer creating the zero-dimensional character. My omniscient awareness of the reactions of these flat sterotypes I just now made up is in no way intended to be a reflection of anything I would ever think, because the Left is Bad.

Hey, did you catch the neat trick I pulled here were there's going to be a nuclear attack, but it's the Hollywood Liberal who's the bad guy in this paragraph? He's lining up to "torture the poor soul into mindless mush"? Just wait until two paragraphs from now where the "poor soul" becomes the "murderer" who we have to "harshly interrogate" for America. I got a Klein bottle full of this shit in my head and I am not afraid to use it.

The modern conservative who believes and champions the idea that the rightness of an act depends upon its desired results has already abandoned principle and truth, and become a member of the Left, by another name--whether he or she is aware of it or not. To act and think like a member of the Left is to be already a member of the Left, even if one is under the impression they oppose it.

If you disagree with me, are you really conservative, or are you really on the Left? THOUGHTCRIME!

I do not profess to know all the interrogation tactics employed by the American government, nor do I know which, if any, of those tactics constitute torture.

Oh, by the way, I have no idea what I'm talking about. That omniscience potion I took this morning before I wrote this told me the secret truth in the heart of all liberals, but I guess it forgot to pick up any national newspaper in the last six months. But in the omniscience potion's defense, there are only two types of liberals, Hollywood Red Carpet Guy and Elitist Cocktail Circuit Politician Guy, so I suppose that first one was an easy get.

And, I am aware that the events of September 11, 2001, and subsequent events, have required a reassessment of the tactics of modern warfare.

looks thoughtfully back to the Torture selection on the Today's Specials menu...mmmm...

Nonetheless, there remains the reality that certain acts against human beings are by their very nature objectively evil, and if we adopt those acts as means to an end -- even a good end --- we have already lost our souls, and we have contributed to triumph of the utilitarian Left.

No! Shouldn't have the Torture...too many calories and you'll just be working it off forever. Don't want to be like those liberals at the next table, God they just love Torture, look at them just digging into big heaping plates full of Torture and waving it around under my nose and trying to cram it down my throat. I shouldn't come to this restaurant any more, I keep running into these filthy, craven liberal animals that spring forth, fully formed, from my imagination.

And, let's not kid ourselves. The more humane and moral our American history has been in the past, the more likely we are to unintentionally succumb to the belief that we do not err by treating cruelly those known to have taken innocent life.

[Did I save the right file here? This seemed to make sense for a minute --spinn]

Because, after all, "torture" is what evil terrorists do, and what evil countries do. It is not what America does. What America does is to protect the innocent. If, in order to protect the innocent, we must "harshly interrogate" a murderer, then so be it. Because, after all, people who are tortured are "victims", and everyone knows that a murderer is not a victim.

I'm glad I finally got an opportunity to put in a public forum my point of view that, because someone is guilty of one crime, we are free and clear to commit any of our own crimes against him. Hell, you can really tell I'm a lawyer, huh? I got this shit down. It also means I can finally share the secret joy in my hobby of sticking my switchblade in the tires of any car that's parked at an expired meter.

Good thing this omniscience potion also tells me who the "murderers" are and who the "victims" are. And being able to "torture" some people and "harshly interrogate" other people is a pleasantly unexpected side-effect. This thing was a steal! Glad I traded the cow for the omniscience potion instead of the five beans like that other loser. That other loser who was likely a liberal. Or a conservative who is really subconsciously secretly a liberal...I mean really either way, he's probably a murderer.

I am concerned for America these days, and not just because we face threats from external forces bent on our destruction. I am most concerned that we --- the Left and the Right -- have drifted from the path of principle and truth and lost our way in the resulting fog.

Whew! Almost forgot that faint whiff of balance at the end there. I think it looks properly like I'm saying the Right could be at fault, but not really, but just enough to protect myself from criticism. Um...I hope it's not too much? People won't start thinking I'm secretly on the Left even though I don't know it?

Eh, nah, their omniscience potions will kick in and clear it up.


14 Comments

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Good post. I love C&L as well. This line in the beginning of your post struck me:

That burnt hair smell you're getting is because of the sparks my brain is throwing off trying to understand that summary enough to make my point.

Funny line by the way.

But what it made me remember was the Salem Witch Trials (burning hair). The Christian religion loves torture. Heck it is all over the bible. The culmination and worship of the entire Christian faith is based on some poor schmuck being tortured...for us? So much so that millions of Americans sit in church gazing at the instrument of that torture (aka cross) with adoration. How completely fkd up is that?

It is not surprising in the least that they find ways to justify torture. They have had hundreds of years to perfect it.

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mageduley wrote "The Christian religion loves torture"

Oh! I suppose you think NON-Christians, don't do bad things to other people?

Get real; you’re just prejudiced.

Ever heard of Imposter Christians; as opposed to those who live with Godly devotion, striving to be kind to all, Christians who abhor torture, or any other detestable conduct.

Unlike some NON-Christians, who use a broad brush to paint all GOOD Christians in a hate filled posting.

Wow! You must think it fun to attack Christians and maybe for kicks, secretly you attack the elderly or any other group you find displeasing? Seeing how your self-righteousness knows no bounds?

By the way Christians didn't torture Jesus, people who hated Jesus did.

If given the opportunity would you have impaled him?

I will agree though, I surely wouldn't hang a spent shell around my neck, because it was the instrument of the death of my loved ones. Really what's up with that?


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The people who tortured Jesus didn't "hate him", I doubt that they even knew his name. They thought of him as a common criminal and were just following orders.

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maybe for kicks, secretly you attack the elderly

No...I only attack the religious mentality that tells me I am going to burn in hell if I don't believe that their god is the one and only god.

In fact, at the Salem trials the good Christians actually thought they were saving the souls of the people they were torturing by purging the evil spirits from them by burning them alive.

Again I ask, how fkd up is that?

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You've never heard me or any other True Christian, say you'll burn in hell.

Purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”
“The church has relied on tradition to support a middle ground between heaven and hell.”—U.S. Catholic, March 1981, p. 7.

Rom. 6:7, NAB: “A man who is dead has been freed from sin.” (Kx: “Guilt makes no more claim on a man who is dead.”)

Eccl. 9:5, JB: “The living know at least that they will die, the dead know nothing.”

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Wow. That's a lot of anger.

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Wow is right...but in the "resistance" rant, they never answered the question, but attacked the writer. That is the same bait and switch that was used by the government to authorize torture (the PC term "enhanced interrogation techniques").

Everytime I read that "the majority" think that torture was okay "in this instance" are unwilling or unable to accept that what our gov't did was illegal. The smoke and mirror justification was their attempt at CYA.

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It's amusing to see the rightwingers hang their arguments on the hook of moral relativism.

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It is clear you don't know the events leading to the torture and the extraordinary rendition, by People who knew of the man Jesus.
It is evident that Slander and lies about decent people of faith, is nothing new among those who are reserved for the same judgment as the wicked.

Hateful anti – Christians judging others, but then cry because they will be judged accordingly.

To BevD

They knew who Jesus was, and being afraid of losing their authority “they took counsel to kill him”

(John 11:47-57) . . .Consequently the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the San′he·drin together and began to say: “What are we to do, because this man performs many signs? 48 If we let him alone this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49 But a certain one of them, Ca′ia·phas, who was high priest that year, said to them: “YOU do not know anything at all, 50 and YOU do not reason out that it is to YOUR benefit for one man to die in behalf of the people and not for the whole nation to be destroyed.” 51 This, though, he did not say of his own originality; but because he was high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was destined to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that the children of God who are scattered about he might also gather together in one.

53 Therefore from that day on they took counsel to kill him.

57 As it was, the chief priests and the Pharisees had given orders that if anyone got to know where he was, he should disclose [it], in order that they might seize him.

(Matthew 26:57-59) . . .Those who took Jesus into custody led him away to Ca′ia·phas the high priest, where the scribes and the older men were gathered together. …….59 Meantime the chief priests and the entire San′he·drin were looking for false witness against Jesus in order to put him to death,

(Matthew 26:65-68) . . .See! Now YOU have heard the blasphemy. 66 What is YOUR opinion?” They returned answer: “He is liable to death.” 67 Then they spit into his face and hit him with their fists. Others slapped him in the face, 68 saying: “Prophesy to us, you Christ. Who is it that struck you?”
(Matthew 27:1-2) 27 When it had become morning, all the chief priests and the older men of the people held a consultation against Jesus so as to put him to death. 2 And, after binding him, they led him off and handed him over to Pilate the governor.
(Matthew 27:11) . . .Jesus now stood before the governor; and the governor put the question to him: “Are you the king of the Jews?” . . .
(Matthew 27:20) . . .But the chief priests and the older men persuaded the crowds to ask for Bar·ab′bas, but to have Jesus destroyed. . .
(Matthew 27:22-24) . . .Pilate said to them: “What, then, shall I do with Jesus the so-called Christ?” They all said: “Let him be impaled!” 23 He said: “Why, what bad thing did he do?” Still they kept crying out all the more: “Let him be impaled!” 24 Seeing that it did no good but, rather, an uproar was arising, Pilate took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying: “I am innocent of the blood of this [man]. . .
(Matthew 27:26-31) . . .Then he released Bar·ab′bas to them, but he had Jesus whipped and handed him over to be impaled. 27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the governor’s palace and gathered the whole body of troops together to him. 28 And disrobing him, they draped him with a scarlet cloak, 29 and they braided a crown out of thorns and put it on his head and a reed in his right hand. And, kneeling before him, they made fun of him, saying: “Good day, you King of the Jews!” 30 And they spit upon him and took the reed and began hitting him upon his head. 31 Finally, when they had made fun of him, they took the cloak off and put his outer garments upon him and led him off for impaling.

(2 Peter 3:3-7) . . .For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his?
5 For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.

(Proverbs 1:22) 22 “How long will YOU inexperienced ones keep loving inexperience, and [how long] must YOU ridiculers desire for yourselves outright ridicule, and [how long] will YOU stupid ones keep hating knowledge?

Psalm 37-37:12
10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.
11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

See you around?

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Jesus also said:
But those mine enemies,
who would not that I should reign over them, bring here, and slay them before me." (Luke 19:12,14,15,27)

I think he was just schizophrenic.

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to mageduley: A very good illustration, but I am afraid you have misunderstood the significance of those verses, Verse 11 told why the illustration. The disciples, were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly. The man would not return for awhile, but while he was away….

11 While they were listening to these things he spoke in addition an illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly. 12 Therefore he said: “A certain man of noble birth traveled to a distant land to secure kingly power for himself and to return. 13 Calling ten slaves of his he gave them ten mi′nas and told them, ‘Do business till I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent out a body of ambassadors after him, to say, ‘We do not want this [man] to become king over us.’ 15 “Eventually when he got back after having secured the kingly power, he commanded to be called to him these slaves to whom he had given the silver money, in order to ascertain what they had gained by business activity. 16 Then the first one presented himself, saying, ‘Lord, your mi′na gained ten mi′nas.’ 17 So he said to him, ‘Well done, good slave! Because in a very small matter you have proved yourself faithful, hold authority over ten cities.’ 18 Now the second came, saying, ‘Your mi′na, Lord, made five mi′nas.’ 19 He said to this one also, ‘You, too, be in charge of five cities.’ 20 But a different one came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your mi′na, that I kept laid away in a cloth. 21 You see, I was in fear of you, because you are a harsh man; you take up what you did not deposit and you reap what you did not sow.’ 22 He said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I judge you, wicked slave. You knew, did you, that I am a harsh man, taking up what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Hence why is it you did not put my silver money in a bank? Then on my arrival I would have collected it with interest.’ 24 “With that he said to those standing by, ‘Take the mi′na from him and give it to him that has the ten mi′nas.’ 25 But they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten mi′nas!’— 26 ‘I say to YOU, To everyone that has, more will be given; but from the one that does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 27 Moreover, these enemies of mine that did not want me to become king over them BRING here and slaughter them before me.’”

The Master, Jesus Christ, the one who would return with kingly power had given these “slaves” something of value. What? What belongings of great value did Jesus Christ entrust to his servants?

It was a set of values. Find new disciples

Jesus’ words,after his resurrection: “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe ALL THE THINGS I HAVE COMMANDED YOU.”—Matt. 28:16, 19, 20.

Upon returning, this man, called before him “these slaves to whom he had given the silver money, in order to ascertain what they had gained by business activity.” (Luke 19:15)

This parable shows clearly and forcefully their obligation to increase TRUE CHRISTIANITY to the greatest possible extent

Would he find the slaves had done as directed, was there harmony with what he taught or did the slaves misuse the mans belongings for their own personal gain, did they do ALL things as commanded.

After the inspection was completed he would oust his enemies from the earth, as shown at Luke 19:15-27.—Ps. 110:1-3..—Matt. 24:3; Luke 19:11-27.

All the “slaves,” like the ones in the parable of the minas, were ‘to do business until he came.’ (Luke 19:11-13) It would be Jesus’ business, the King’s business.

Instead we find to many of the so called Christian Churches are not what the king expected, and in fact have worked against the Kings interest, saying ’WE don’t want you as king”
He in turn states Moreover, these enemies of mine that did not want me to become king over them bring here and slaughter them before me.”

Slaughter the liars, those who defamed me, those who murdered and tortured in my name.

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Slaughter the liars, those who defamed me, those who murdered and tortured in my name.

Who decides Resistance? Who decides who are the liars? What evidence is required? Is it the church elders? What group mentality will condemn the "liars" that you speak of?

I think the commander of the Spanish Inquisition and the Elders of Salem were certain they knew. I am sure they used that exact passage to justify their actions.

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The Supreme Judge is the one to make the decision.

(Matthew 10:22-28) . 28 And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen′na.

(Romans 12:17-19) 17 Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay,

(Romans 13:1-4) 13 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.

Christians know what can happen. But we are not cowards. Death has been conquered. True Christians believe in the Resurrection. So if wicked men and imposter Christians promote murder and torture. You already know, they may kill the body, but you’ll get a new one if you remain faithful.
The Great Judge will make the wicked answerable to him. You’ll have your day in court. As will all our brothers who were persecuted for Righteousness sake

(Mark 13:13)
13 and YOU will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name. But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.

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After reviewing your question I would add.

Just because some murderer or wicked person invokes some scriptural reason for their wicked deeds, is not justification, the Most High never authorized the act.

Some never give him credit for much, but the moment they can discredit him or find fault, they assume that all who claim to be Christians are an example of Christianity.

If those who at the Inquisition said they were Christians, somehow that makes them so because they said so?

What standard would you apply?

(Matthew 7:15-21) 15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]. 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.

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