I Wish Joe Wilson Were Right.
During his recent speech to Congress, President Obama asserted that proposed healthcare reform legislation excluded illegal immigrants from insurance coverage. Representative Joe Wilson (R., S. Carolina) shouted "You Lie", and gained instant notoriety in the media. Who was right - the President who claimed the illegals were excluded, or Representative Wilson, who claimed they were covered.
To this nation's enduring shame, the President was right and Wilson was wrong. We are now committing ourselves to punishing illegals with the threat of illness, pain, suffering, and death.
I understand the political forces that have imposed this obscenity on healthcare reformers. I am convinced that in their hearts, they would wish to extend to illegals the compassion we owe to all human beings. I understand that their first priority must be to achieve desperately needed reforms of a healthcare system spiraling toward catastrophe. I understand all that in my head, but at a deeper level, it is something I truly don't understand. What have we become as a nation when the greed for political advantage forces us to forfeit our basic humanity? Is it worth it for the winners of that concession to have scored such a decisive victory over kindness? Is it worth it for those who made the concessions to sacrifice the victims for the sake of others? Sadly, the answer to the latter question is probably yes.
Illegal immigration confronts us with daunting challenges. These must be addressed - to some extent with more secure borders, and to a greater extent by enforcement of laws against fraudulent employment. Enforcement requires penalties, but the death penalty should not be the enforcement mechanism, even if only a few die for lack of timely care, nor should unnecessarily severe or prolonged illness be the penalty for those who recover spontaneously or reach the hospital ER before it's too late. Is there not something in the Constitution about cruel and unusual punishment?
I remain hopeful. I hope, and at some level I believe, that if we today can blithely ignore employment regulations so as to enjoy the benefits of cheap labor by illegals, we might find ways to circumvent healthcare regulations that leave the same laborers uncovered by insurance - including insurance they would pay for to the extent possible.
It is not that we are asking taxpayers to cover all their healthcare costs at our expense. We do that for some individuals, but we wouldn't for the illegals. We do it for felons imprisoned for murder, rape, armed robbery, child molestation, and other crimes. If they fall ill, they go to the prison hospital and are treated as a gift from the taxpayer. But they are in this country legally, and that makes all the difference. They are Americans.
On most occasions, being American is something to be proud of.
Not this time.
You're absolutely right.
September 13, 2009 12:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
You could not be more wrong. The Constitution guarantees the rights of American citizens, not illegals. Too many of our friends in the labor movement working for universal health care are losing their jobs to illegal immigrants here in this country. Roofers, electricians, plumbers, landscapers, and other skilled tradesmen and tradeswomen. They have families to feed and children to keep well and raise healthy.
But no, we have to hang a sign outside the borders that says: "Y'all come in! We're giving shit away--no money down, no risk!"
The flood of illegal immigration would grow to truly biblical proportions if health care were free and on par with American , who already have to wait behind the occasional illegal immigrant in ERs. The Golden Hour--that literal 60 minutes between a heart attack or stroke and irreversible injury--would be exceeded as wait times grow to what? 90 minutes? 75 minutes? Maybe just 65 minutes? Every additional five minutes added to the average will cost thousands of lives--perfectly law-abiding, good lives.
We might as well make it this country's policy to extend health care to sleeper cell agents. Surely those poor illegals won't cost any American lives if we get them well, either.
September 13, 2009 1:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think there are around 20 million illegal immigrants now. Every single one of them pretty much gets care exclusively through the emergency room. Are you truly proposing that caring for the majority of these cases in a non-emergency clinical setting would increase emergency room wait times for heart attack victims? I don't follow this logic at all. Please explain.
September 13, 2009 2:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
You make a good point, kgb, and it may well be that offering care for the 17 million (or so, I've read) illegals in this country might relieve pressure in the ERs.
The truth is, I can't wrap my brain around how to offer care in a way that doesn't promote more illegal immigration. If THAT could be solved, I might go for it. But I think just folding them into the system would be an expensive proposition that would inherently increase doctor visits AND visits to the ER by illegals. It pisses me off that people just waltz into this country as if they're entitled to break our laws and displace many of our best skilled tradesmen by working cheap.
September 13, 2009 3:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure I buy the cause/effect relationship here. I mean if that was all there was to it - wouldn't Mexicans just keep rolling on through up to Canada for the free health care? I think the opportunity for cash money is going to always be the attraction and the availability of such opportunities will be the driving/limiting factor until a sane policy emerges to address the obvious disasters created by aspects of the globalization structures currently in place.
Perhaps fortunately, it's all an academic discussion. Providing for anything but the most expensive (and most likely to cost American lives as you point out) ER care for these people is structurally unfeasible through any of the bills on tap. IMO, the whole issue is far more complicated than can be addressed as a part of the health care/insurance reform/giveaway legislation anyhow. But I do strongly stand behind my belief that ANYBODY should be able to purchase insurance and carry their own weight regardless of immigration status.
I lived in Vegas for quite some time (quite a bit longer than I've been up North) and know first hand the front-lines of the issue. We really need to do something for sure, but I seem to be on the same page as DD here. There is a cause and effect that can be directly traced to corporate hegemony. If we want to fix the problem, we're going to have to change the way we do business in Mexico(and Latin America). But, as with the insurance industry, there are powerful people making much money keeping stuff screwed up - who are specifically motivated and rewarded for undermining everyone's wages. Fixing it will be as big a battle as health care. The us vs. them dynamic doesn't help either, it really clouds reasoning when the issue is viewed wholly in terms of external threat.
Immigration reform is gonna be a doozy. If you think folks around here are whacking each other over the head now ... just wait!
September 13, 2009 4:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lots of illegal Mexicans in Canada, too. I guess some do roll on through for health care, but they're also getting better care right now in the U.S. than they often get in Mexico. Not that they have bad doctors, just too few.
September 13, 2009 4:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey there ... Ripper . . .
Let me first preface this with, I've been an active member with AFSCME for over almost 30 years through my work at UCLA before retiring. In addition to that I acted as a bargaining agent with the Plumbers & Pipe-fitters locals in So Cal for 6 years previous to that. So that will give you an idea where I stand on union issues.
But this bit of hyperbole really caught my eye.
You don't really think that the President outlined free coverage for all through the planned "Exchange" do you? Do you have any idea how the "Exchange" is planned to be set-up? If you don't it would behoove you to immerse yourself in the actual particulars of the bills so far being presented for consideration so as to not appear lacking in knowledge when talking about what the health reform bill will and will not be.
And as a hintm here's a little question: What currently stops any undocumented alien, say from Armenia, or Britain, or Mexico, or Ireland, or Russia, or any other country from purchasing health insurance from any private company? Nothing.
I am not for undocumented aliens flooding our borders. Nor am I for undocumented aliens receiving that which is not theirs to receive such as Medicare and Medicaid nor any other subsidies from taxpayers money under current law.
But to shoot from the lip about what the current reform will do and/or will not do is a disservice to the intelligence you've exhibited in a myriad of your comments here throughout the Cafe when not mixed with emotional hyperbole, such as this instance.
Let me remind you of what the President stated when speaking of the public option:
Hmmm ... "if taxpayers were subsidizing.." and "..like any private insurance company, the public insurance option would have to be self-sufficient and rely on the premiums it collects."
"Rely on the premiums."
That sure doesn't sound like a give away to me. And even in the HR 3200 mark-up under Sec 246 it strictly forbids affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States. No matter what the knee-jerk reaction has been out of corporatist shills Kent Conrad and Max Baucus and all the rest of the "Gang of 6".
But there's no way that those "private insurance plans" provided through the Exchange can be forbidden to be purchased by anyone who would so choose to purchase a policy, undocumented or not. The "public option" is a whole different matter related to the availability to undocumented individuals.
~OGD~
September 13, 2009 4:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
OGD, the give-away I was referring to wasn't meant to imply that insurance for anyone other than fully subsidized individuals would be free under HR 3200. Fred is arguing illegal immigrants should be covered under health reform, ergo among the subsidized individuals.
I was referring more ambiguously to a number of economic and social benefits, not all government-provided, that unfairly accrue to illegal immigrants. That includes occupying American jobs and housing, using parks and recreation facilities, etc.
September 14, 2009 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here ya go ... Ripper . . .
Thanks for returning to clarify the feelings of emotion relating to what you initially posted with this latest comment to further muddy what I perceive Fred's point was in his post.
These two graphs are what I read as the crux of Fred's post (my bold highlight):
You see, I just don't read Fred's response the way you have. Especially in light of your original statement that I highlighted, again that being: "But no, we have to hang a sign outside the borders that says: 'Y'all come in! We're giving shit away--no money down, no risk!'"
I don't read Fred's post as "...giving shit away..."
With that said, allow me to also point to this graph of yours:
My opinion is that that statement there is the biggest line of irrational rhetoric that I've read around here that been placed in print.
I specifically point to your "The Golden Hour" line of rhetoric. Either you have no idea how ERs truly work what with triage, which I find hard to believe from many of your previous knowledgeable and sensible comments here at the Cafe, or as I suspect you've taken broad literary license to spruce up your prose to underscore the disdain for those selected individuals who find themselves in a situation that is driven mainly by poverty and employers who prey upon this cheap labor source as their personal servant class.
Anyway ... I stand firmly on the side that Fred has staked out. That being the "...compassion we owe to all human beings" coupled with my refusal to sell out my soul just "...to sacrifice the victims for the sake of others."
You see my Granny, rest her soul, many many moons ago told me to never forget the following teaching:
That's taught me to keep my eyes peeled for those that are truly the enemy. And those enemies are not those who are the victims and neither are those the enemy who are but pawns in the game (1963 I was there at 17) within this realm.
Human Rights is a Civil Right!
I hope you get my drift.
~OGD~
September 14, 2009 10:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
"But I think just folding them into the system would be an expensive proposition that would inherently increase doctor visits AND visits to the ER by illegals."
You are ignoring the old adage that a ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
You are so incensed by the economic damage done by the willingness of American business people to hire illegals on the cheap and of the illegals who are facing economic privation at home -- if not starvation to take jobs for those wages that you are ignoring the impact of preventive care.
If we 'give' a little bit now, we can avoid having to 'give' a lot latter. If we give the woman with diabetes a flu shot we do not face having to treat her for pneumonia in the ER later.
September 13, 2009 10:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did you know there's two sides to a coin? Fred is talking about one side and you're talking about the other. The problem is, the coin is made up of both sides.
Granted, the immigration problem is big, but look at Italy. Look at that extremely long coast line where some areas are completely uninhabited. They have tons of illegals coming in from the Balkins, the Middle East and Africa. Their immigration problem is far more sever than in the US because the illegals really do stand out in a crowd there. And don't forget the Roma - the gypsies that roam through western and eastern Europe. Plus being a part of the European Union, many EU residents can be found down there too.
The problem is immigration is a serious global problem, not just a local one. A method needs to be crafted to stem the flow. Problem is what are the causes, how to address it and by whom.
As for the US problem, there needs to be some serious work with Mexico, Central and South America to identify what measures can be taken to stem the tide of illegals heading for the US. Solve that issue and the border problem will disappear.
As for Fred, he's concerned about the scorched earth health care legislation. Granted, illegals are a major cause of insurance rates rising - the cost is transferred to those who can afford to pay. However, the main problem is the people who employee illegals as a source of cheap labor while pocketing the money earned by their labors and not giving them insurance, retirement or social security - that's a lot of money. I agree anyone needing health care shouldn't be denied regardless of their legal status and their ability to pay. That's where the government comes in. Perhaps the US government should strike up an agreement with Mexico where if a Mexican national receives health care in the US and they are here illegally, Mexico pays the bill. If the Mexican government has a problem with it, then perhaps they should patrol their borders more closely. But we, as a nation, can honestly say we take care of everyone within our borders regardless of their status.
September 13, 2009 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think engaging the Mexican government is a good idea. In the specific case, however, we are talking about legislation that would prohibit illegal immigrants from purchasing insurance, not require us to give them free care. If they were allowed to purchase insurance, that would cost the U.S. nothing. If they couldn't afford the premiums, it would be reasonable to exempt our government from subsidizing them, but that's a different issue.
September 13, 2009 5:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Illegal immigration confronts us with daunting challenges. These must be addressed - to some extent with more secure borders, and to a greater extent by enforcement of laws against fraudulent employment."
If the laws against fraudulent employment were followed, the illegal immigrants would not be drawn here in the first place and we wouldn't have to have this conversation.
September 13, 2009 2:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
There are universal truths that are taught at University through their Cultural Anthropology Departments.
Not a lot. But some truths that seem to indicate the collective unconscious described by Jung.
One is US vs. them. The 'civilized' and the 'barbarians'. THe 'Chosen' vs. the Unwashed. The HUMANS vs. the subhumans.
The slogan on the STatue of Liberty must be modified so that we advertise what we are, not what we had once aspired to be.
The beacon has become a wall.
September 13, 2009 2:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
dd, for nearly our entire existence--indeed, long before France gifted us with Lady Liberty--the United States has set immigration quotas. At times, those quotas were manipulated to favor one ethnic group or another. But this country has NEVER in its history sanctioned illegal immigration. Simple respect for our national sovereignty doesn't mean you can't immigrate. It just means you can't toddle in and out of the U.S. at will without abiding by our laws. We can't fit 6.8 billion people within our borders even if we wanted to. But many ARE welcomed, provided they only follow the rules.
Your comment is too simplistic, too racial and too exaggerated for me.
September 13, 2009 2:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Easy for you to say perhaps, but its my job illegal immigrants are taking away. As my teeth rot in my mouth and I can't find enough work to afford dental care.
Its a complex problem and I want to be compassionate. But the US economy simply doesn't have room for all the people who want to come here. It has nothing to do with civilized vs barbarians. I spent a year in Mexico. Most of the Mexicans I knew and invited me to visit before I arrived were college graduates I met in the US. After I was there I met poorer and less educated Mexicans. I'm poor, I don't hate poor people.
And it has nothing to do with race. If Canada was poor and there were 20 million illegals here and ten thousand more crossing the border every day I'd still have a problem, even though they are white.
September 13, 2009 3:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
OH I do not know if its easy for me to say or not Ocean.
Just a thought. The corporate interests want the closest thing to slave labor they can find. That is a fact. If it were not, we would not have the type of traffic we are getting from our southern neighbors.
Certainly the current situation is not helping you or me in the slightest.
And this adds to the many other pressures and influences from the oligarchy that are literally torturing tens of millions of us.
September 13, 2009 3:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
I know DD. I don't hate illegal immigrants. Were I born in Mexico its certainly possible I'd make the same choice they, to sneak across the border to make a better life for myself and my family.
I spent a few months in Guadalahara. My friends found me the cheapest hotel in a safe part of town. It turned out it doubled as a house of prostitution. I would talk to the girls, and I do mean girls, most were teens. About half couldn't read.
At some point I noticed one girl's hands. The whole palm and fingers had skin so thick and callused that it looked like the sole of a foot of a person who never wore shoes. I was amazed/confused and I asked her why. She said, ever since I was a little girl every day I had to pull weeds on the farm.
So I do understand their plight, I've seen it, and I do sympathize.
September 13, 2009 1:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right there with you on this one. I'm amazed that now the so-called free marketers want a ban on even purchasing insurance ... WTF? So we pay the emergency room acute disaster price for even those who would otherwise care for themselves? THAT'S a really great plan. Xenophobic hate makes people do some really stupid things. I guess illegal immigrants could always get the incarceration benefits you describe by turning themselves in and then fighting deportation :-(
I think we're going to have to deal with health/education issues related to illegal immigration in an immigration reform bill. But I've got to note, you left out the most effective thing we could do to alleviate the immigration problem: enact policies that encourage wage growth in their home countries instead of empowering our corporations to use other nations as virtual slave-labor pools (and we are by no means alone in supporting this practice).
September 13, 2009 2:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
I wouldn't mind if the U.S. funded foreign aid packages to build clinics and hospitals and training centers for doctors and nurses, primarily in Mexico because Canada seems to be doing okay with its health care. And you're right, kgb, wage and business growth would help alleviate the economic pressure to emigrate while preserving more jobs here.
September 13, 2009 2:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am somewhat saddened and disappointed by the tenor of some of the above comments. It seems to say that illegal immigration should be discouraged, and therefore it is acceptable to impose on these immigrants an increased risk of illness, pain, suffering, and death as a means of discouraging them. I would have thought some of the commenters would have been more compassionate than that.
Therefore, let's make it unequivocally clear. Illegal immigration must indeed be discouraged, and there will be little argument with that. What must also be discouraged, in my view, is a form of discouragement in which we sacrifice our most basic principles of humane behavior in order to make life in this country intolerable for some under circumstances of illness. Just as we do not do that for imprisoned murderers, rapists, or child molesters, we must not do that to other human beings who have violated immigrtation laws. I see it as a profound moral lapse, and not one I would expect of those here whose moral sense I had come to respect.
I therefore appeal to all to separate two distinct questions - how do we appropriately enforce immigration laws and penalize violaters, and how do we treat fellow members of the human species?
I hope that once we step back from issues of anyone's self interest, or any group's self interest, we will be able to make that distinction. It will be one of the way we define ourselves as human beings.
September 13, 2009 10:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't routinely visit the Huffington Post, but this morning I noticed a title that seemed relevant, and is -
Why Obama Should Have Been Lying
September 13, 2009 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
After reading the Huffington Post article, I see the issue is beginning to rise as an issue for discussion and I see your take on it.
As I stated above and on that post as well, the US government needs to develop a working relationship with all countries concerning health care of foreign nationals on US soil. If a Brit takes ill or injures himself while visiting the US, his medical bills should be forwarded to the British NHS for payment. It's a simple courtesy that goes both ways. As for Mexico, every illegal immigrant that receives medical attention, their bills should be forwarded to Mexico. Once we get the national governments to create an agreement to work together to pay for their citizens health care bills the issue of illegal immigration becomes an issue for the ex-pat's nation to resolve if they don't want to pay the medical bills.
September 13, 2009 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
BTW Fred, I finally got a chance to read and respond to your post yesterday ... Is The Public Option Important? I hope my input helps.
September 13, 2009 2:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for that thoughtful input. I responded there to some of your commentary, although I didn't get a chance to address everything.
September 13, 2009 5:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well Said, Fred.
September 13, 2009 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
As Colin Powell said back in 2003 . . .
If you break it... you own it . . .
After all -- It is the moral and humanitarian thing to do.
What are there, some 31.2 million citizens in Iraq? That's about the same as that in the state of California. But we can sure spend everybody's hard earned taxes on them ... but screw our own citizen's and our neighbors to the south.
The following was just from the USAID alone. No telling what amounts had and have since been earmarked and buried in the Iraq budgets since then.
Assistance For Iraq » Reconstruction Overview » Health
Maybe we should apply for USAID and UNICEF funds for own situation...
~OGD~
September 13, 2009 6:01 PM | Reply | Permalink