« Reich Rant | ~flowerchild~'s Blog | Yeah, Again with a Response to a Post by Dr. Reich »

Dear Dr. Like Talking to a Rock Reich,


But, who is going to make our stuff?  Huh?

Fine.  No more manufacturing in the US. We'll talk about that later.  Instead, let's all sit around and just symbolically earn a living.  Yeah, that'll work  Work...hahahahahaha...I just made myself laugh.

So, symbolic analyst jobs are the next big thing.  They're so in demand they are already being outsourced and 'as long as we don't have another recession' the demand in the US will grow faster than a dandelion in June.  We've only had 5 maybe 6 recessions of varying degrees since 1979 so that makes me feel all safe and secure about the future of symbolic analytic work.

Which brings us right back to 30 years ago when the service industry was our new saving grace.  All the permanently laid off workers left those high paying manufacturing jobs and moved on, taking those low paying jobs after being told they were getting in on the ground floor of ...well, whatever.  Thankfully those great jobs in the service sector kept the regular folk above the poverty line.

No.  Wait.  IT DID NOT WORK OUT THAT WAY, DID IT?  Even with a raise in the minimum wage and the $4/hr job became the $7/hr job, the regular folk were still flirting with poverty.  Flirting, hell.  They done knocked her up and had to marry her.

So, let's educate the great unwashed.  Starting a few months after they're more or less housebroken,  let's give them a sound educational foundation.  Well, that sounds swell and would probably do a lot of good, except who is gonna pay for it?  Their moms and dads and the taxes they pay on their $7/hr jobs? 

Oh, wait....folks living at the poverty level don't pay taxes, do they?  And the poor folks all live in the low rent housing, which beget underfunded schools, which beget students who are ill prepared to seek higher learning and end up getting $7/hr jobs and the burger flipper marries the french fry girl and they have a baby and yada, yada, yada and I don't need a Spirograph to draw this circle over and over again

Your ideas are not breaking the cycle, Dr. Reich.  Is that some of your symbolic analysis at work here?  The money needed to boost education comes from taxes.  Taxes come from folks who make enough money to pay them.  Money comes from working at jobs that pay well.  Well paying jobs are traditionally held by union backed workers in a variety of fields, including the manufacturing that you have little enthusiasm for.

Well, I'm not as ready to dismiss manufacturing as you are.  Revolutionized manufacturing has a place in this country partnered with a skilled labor force because we will always need workers to make our stuff

Not everyone wants to do poof work.  Some folks like to have something to point to at the end of the day and say proudly, "I did that!"  It's proof of work

I guess you could say, it's "poof work vs. proof work".

Summing up, before I blow a blood vessel...

I do not live in the world you do, Dr. Reich.  I live in the working world, the get your hands dirty world, the pencil pushing world, the wrench turning world, the taking care of it world.  

The real world.

I invite you, Dr. Reich....bring your friends in government along with you....I invite you and all your friends to walk around in the actual working world for a day or two and see how most of us do it. 

Don't be afraid of us. 

We won't hurt you. 

We're too farking busy making a living and too tired to throw a punch.


48 Comments

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Woot! There it is! You go, girl.

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Dr. Reich:

Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

If you believe that the American workforce is somehow going to move to an abstract working world while the rest of the world supplies us cheap goods, then you are deluded, stupid, and insane. We are not Hoynhims, and the third world are not Yahoos.

All you are interested in is crafting a piece of pseudointellectual legedermain to distract the labor union from the knife in its back.

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Wasn't it a bunch of those "symbolic analytic" workers that dreamed up the casino game of capitalism that we are now paying them off from what "they" lost? Giving them real money to replace the "funny money" generated through the derivatives market (and those rating and insuring it)?

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I left a comment on Reich's Part 2 thread, but it vanished. Doesn't matter because you've really crushed it here.

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What?!

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What it's really about, Flower, is value-additive work. What can we do that improves the value of something?

Analysis by its nature is not value-additive. A certain amount of it is necessary, true, and yet we can't all sit around and analyze everything - because we don't live in the University of the United States.

Some of the first things we might look at are high speed intercity and commuter rail lines. The construction of them can not be "outsourced", as a rail line is built between the points it serves. It makes equally little sense to outsource the rolling stock manufacture, as rail cars cost more to ship than is saved by outsourcing them overseas. Urban buses as well - for the same reasons, and both rail and buses need operation and maintenance once they're running.

American companies also do very well overseas, although that tends to benefit investors far more than workers, as the jobs are created offshore.

Another sector where we need to put in serious effort is energy technology. Why should Vestas get all the wind turbine money? And again, we can't outsource rebuilding the grid in new and more robust and decentralized ways - it's a physical plant improvement that is done in place.

Just a bit o' food for thought.

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Analysis is a valuable precursor to synthesis. That is, it can add value, result in better outcomes.

What constitutes a better outcome? This is also subject to valuable analysis.

The problem is that what Reich is talking about seems to be adding layers of optimization as though those layers will net out to positive value sufficient to support millions of people. That tends to turn a society into an economic bureaucracy.


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Analysis is a valuable precursor to synthesis. That is, it can add value, result in better outcomes.

What constitutes a better outcome? This is also subject to valuable analysis.

Nice bit of tail-chasing there. When you stop going in circles, try not to fall down from the dizziness.

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not doing that. When you want to discuss something instead of attacking your own stupidity by projecting onto others that way, let's chat.

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Stone washed and tie-dyed. Nice work.

One has to think that Marie Antoinette had such men to dinner quite often just to give her court the lilt of a benevolent monarchy.

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Dear Doctor Reich-Rock,
Theoretically I will have a futuristic job thinking, not tinkering. What does that pay? I mean, I’m 62 and a little old for reframing. I once tried to manufacture evidence against your way of creating arguments, but like my 401K and my union, it disappeared into thin air. I had nothing left but the residue on my real forehead. And despite intellectually fiddling with my red hot ‘96 Saturn, the car demands hands on experience to be fixed.

If I could somehow link my intentions with the engine, perhaps it might tell me “why US taxpayers would want to own today’s GM.” And the engine would say: THE WELFARE OF THE PEOPLE COMES FIRST, theoretically. But then, cars don’t really talk, do they. During depressions, they just sit in the driveway, contemplating bankruptcy and the loss of drivers and the price of oil and global warming. I wanna be a new green electric truck. Is that symbolically or analytically a prospect?

Realistically Sincere, stratofrog

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Well done!

I think the elite, even those like Dr. Reich who I like and admire, have a hard time really grasping the implications of how not okay it is to destroy middle class jobs and tell the victims of the job losses and those in the same social/economic class to buck up and find new skills. We know something they don't know. That is that whether or not workers in the impacted class get new skills they are being asked to leave the ranks of free, middle class citizens and re-enter the peasantry voluntarily. Workers have cooperated thus far with their own elimination, but I am hoping and praying that huge numbers start waking up now that it is clear that our "leaders" are telling us to bail out the wealthy crooks who have destroyed our economy and mortgaged our future to the Chinese while at the same time quietly adopting the lifestyle of 21st century serfs. Unacceptable.

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Once upon a time, American industrialists realized that union wages (for which they'd run union members through rigorous gauntlets, by the way) and niceties like environmental regulations were cutting into their exorbitant profits, so they shipped their factories off to places like China and Mexico, where workers, should they chafe at dime-a-day pay, are fired and replaced in a snap. And pollution? Schmolution!

In a few years, when we're in rags and eating bark off trees, factories will come back, and we'll be damn glad to be chained to our machine tools and lose a hand in unregulated sweatshops just for a scrap of bread.

Well... that's then. Until that day, we'll shuffle paper to each other, and the government will borrow more money to pay us. We'll live the phantom paradise of a "service economy" until some genius finally discovers there's nothing left to serve. Through it all, brilliant economists will tell us, over and over, that we're living the inevitability of the global economy. We know they're brilliant because brilliant writers working for brilliant media barons tell us so.

We shop for trousers of Kleenex at Target, and eat generic slop. It's all global, baby. Can't hold it back.

Our betters tell us so.


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Curt, I think you are on track. There have certainly been a number of folks over the years who have argued that whether by intent or natural outcome the U.S. was being converted to a "third world" economy. (Michael Parenti for one)

I would lean towards the "intent" part when one examines the mechanisms of formal globalization (meaning NAFTA, GATT, CAFTA, IMF, WB, WTO). Particularly since the passage of the Uruguay round of GATT, the power shifted from governments to corporations. What this shift has led to is a cooperative assault on national policies and protections. (Chile lodges a complaint against the U.S. with the WTO; U.S. complains about the E.U.; E.U complains about India; etc) All of this to reduce safety standards to the lowest possible level (now at the "industry set" standard for phytosafety for example)

However, more pertinent to the current issue is the effort to create a "borderless world" for trade and capital. On the other hand, every effort has been made to keep workforces in place. One of the major mechanisms for this is the anti-immigration movements and policies in the U.S. and Western Europe. The intent (or consequence) is corporations can then set up workforce bidding wars between nations with the jobs going the lowest bidder. If labor is moving to jobs, then labor will move to the highest paying, best protected jobs. Since (while radically eroding) the U.S. and Western European nations have the most safety and pay protections for workers, pressure cannot be applied without the threat of moving jobs elsewhere.

This "competitive" labor process can force workers to "give up" protections and pay, and nations to lower standards to "compete" in the global market. However, it is a competition that leads only one way for workers.

This is one of the reasons we not only need unions, but that we need global coordination of unions. There is no way that the U.S. workers with a minimum wage of roughly $7, can compete against nations with pay of $2 or less. At the very least workers in "advanced" economies need to be active advocates for improving the working conditions and pay of workers across the world.

I could go on and on, but ... Right On Curt ... and keep up the good work flowerchild!!! highly rec'd

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Another thing to keep in mind, Rowan: It's impossible to erase borders and implement this international trade empire without eradicating the political base of individual nations, as well. Those competitors in regions with less "sophisticated" regimes will enjoy real advantages, like working their employees long hours with no benefits under deplorable conditions... and no options. Draconian backwardness like that is only possible in systems where freedoms are as scarce as potable water and life-spans past 40. Just to compete, Western governments will become more "efficiently tyrannical"; democracy means too much red ink. And, again, I think that's the intention: The world will be one, big, blank Monopoly board - with guard dogs and guns, of course.

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Great comments from both of you here. Side note: It's interesting to keep in mind when talking about the benefits of 'free trade' just what that means in terms of actual cost of the items being traded. A friend of mine has a sewing factory, that his grandfather started many decades ago. He's been losing business because the cost of producing it abroad is about 5% cheaper after all the transportation/import costs are factored in. So the stuff he's producing for various companies gets shipped overseas to save us $1 on a $20 item. Meanwhile 40 employees are out of work. My friend admits he'll eventually have to close his doors. His goal is to be the last sewing factory in his area to close its doors. Once those doors are closed, bringing back that manufacturing capacity will be more expensive, and hiring a skilled work force will be all but impossible.

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"No. Wait. IT DID NOT WORK OUT THAT WAY, DID IT? Even with a raise in the minimum wage and the $4/hr job became the $7/hr job, the regular folk were still flirting with poverty. Flirting, hell. They done knocked her up and had to marry her."

Alrighty then, I hereby render unto you the Dayly Line of the Day Award for this here TPMCafe Site, given to all of you from all of me.

GREAT BLOG FLOWER!!!

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Chi migwetch, Mr. Day. I have space on a shelf for just such an award. :o)

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EGGZATLY!!! The analytic jobs are already going over seas. The Chinese are learning english and the Indians are learning the American accent. Eitehr way, if these is any way for the job to go overseas, it will.

It's not that we do not build anything, it is that we will not build anything until we can degrade wages to the point that the shipping costs render the import too expensive, or we resume tariffs, which protected us for decades, and which are prevelant around the world, prety much everywhere else but here.

Why no tariffs here? Because our politicians are not patriots, but globalists. They cater to international intrests who seek to sell thier goods to the US, but who have no fouled the market. Now that our economy is in ruins the best we can hope for is parity with the rest of the world.

Great post, FC.

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What a lot of twaddle by all contributors to this essay.

Dr. Reich was largely responsible for one of the greatest growth spurts in American history, so it's unlikely that the breathtakingly over-simplified "ideas" presented on this page haven't occurred to him.

American industrial capacity has taken a hit, but so has that of most of the countries in the world. We no longer produce much in the way of consumer goods, and much of our steel-making capacity went away a generation ago, but there are not many countries in the world that can compare with the United States for the manufacture of industrial machinery, airplanes, and the like.

The kinds of jobs that depend on blue-collar labor are vanishing and will continue to do so all over the world. That's just the way it is. Good or bad has nothing to do with it. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it. As the Zen Yankee says, "It is as is and ain't no iser."

Moan all you want. But train your kid to be a steel worker, a garment worker, or a car maker and you're pissing away her or his future.

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We're out of cheap energy for growth spurts. Reich is fighting the last war.

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You totally RAWK!!!!!!
Yep.

And Duh.

Also.

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So with a half million people losing jobs every MONTH, what brilliant plan do you have in mind to turn things around and put them back to work? What are all of those workers to do?

It's pure folly to steer this country away from production in favor of service or "thinking" jobs. It's a clear path to the extenuation of the masses serving the rich. We've been heading down that path long enough. If we're ever to be self-sufficient again we need to stop listening to the Reichs of the world and look instead to creating the kinds of jobs that are a benefit to all of us.

Remember when we used to do that? Remember when we were all proud of this country and what we could accomplish together? Remember when we had fewer billionaires and a massive middle class?

It's lost now, but if it's gone forever, there's no hope for any of us.

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what brilliant plan do you have in mind to turn things around

To let the smart people, like Reich, figure it out rather than have people like, no offense, you pipedream about bringing back the kinds of jobs that are being done by 10-year-old Chinese and one-year-old machines.

Understand this: Those jobs are gone. Forever. People will no longer be able to make a living melting down whale blubber, producing buggy whips, or digging holes. Fewer and fewer are needed to build cars. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

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A hell of a growth spurt?

For whom?

Most of us treaded water. I did alright in the 1990s. I could pay my bills, live decently, although not extravagantly, and put money away for the kids college and a bit for retirement. Kust like my Daddy, although he did that on 1 salary, not 2. Hmmm.

But hey, congrats for being one of the 1 or 2% that did "well."

You fucked the rest of us, but whatev, you have yours

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So what's your solution? If we're out of cheap energy, how do we power the big plants that employ the blue-collar guys? It seems to me that Reich is telling us that big industry IS the last war in the US, and that intellectual pursuits are the way to go.

Big industry is closing down in the US, but the fastest growing industrial nations are like Uzbekistan and Vietnam -- growing fast because the denominator in their rates are so low, not because the enumerator is high.

Forget all about making jeans and cars. Those kinds of jobs are being performed by machines, and that trend will do nothing but increase. Learn to program the machines, or be a plumber or an electrician.

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I don't have a pat solution. I think manufacturing and farming will trend less energy-intensive, which will require far greater numbers of human workers than symbolic analysis.

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Oh gee! Manufacturing?!

Well yez. Fancy that. Some folks have no idea of the real world. Mr. Reich is one and tankard is... I dunno what tankard is.

Tanked, maybe.

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You are a very good cheekhen...

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Yeah, I did well in the 1990s and I'm not apologizing for it. But I fucked the rest of you? C'mon, get real.

But you have a point. The gap between the did-wells and the did-poorlies grew under the conservative Clinton Administration as it has under all the administrations since Reagan, because they have all been conservative, just as the current administration is

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Tanked am I? Then it should be easy for you to refute my statement of FACT that blue collar and no collar jobs are disappearing around the world.

Or you can sit there, call me and Dr. Reich names, moan about reality, and fire up another pipe.

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Here's an exercise for you. Find out how many people-hours it took to produce, say, a ton of corn in 1940, 1970, and 2000.

And do you really think manual labor is LESS energy-intensive than machine labor? I really doubt that you are that uninformed.

Any industry that can't operate on fewer and fewer people as time goes on is an industry that will die. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

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Here's an exercise for you: post your opinions without being arrogant. The only reason it takes less man-hours now is because they can add more petroleum BTUs. When the petroleum gets more expensive, what will people do, analyse the crops out of the ground?

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My apologies for coming across as arrogant. I admit it's a problem for me.

Bit if we can't afford the BTUs using efficient machinery, how will we afford MORE BTUs using inefficient human labor? Non verisimilis est.

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Using machines seems more efficient because fossil fuel has been so cheap and contains so much embedded energy. Maybe manufacturing lines are better, but the internal combustion engines that are the backbone of farm and construction equipment are not all that efficient. In many vehicles, 80% the input energy is lost as heat. We won't be able to throw away that energy much longer. There are certainly opportunities to design and engineer better machines, but I don't see that as Symbolic Analysis, and manufacturing better machines is itself energy-intensive.

I don't expect a return to 18th century farming and manufacturing, but I think there will be more opportunities for laborers wielding machines rather than the automated systems we have now.

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So where do the BTUs come from that people burn? Sorry, Donal, but people don't manufacture energy out of thin air, either. The physics just doesn't work, no matter how hard we hope.

Swallow it. We probably will never have as many blue collar or no collar jobs than we have now. Now matter how you do the math, they go away. Now, maybe they go away because civilization goes away, but one way or the other, they are gone.

That's not because Bob Reich took them away.

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If we can't feed ourselves it doesn't really matter what collar we wear. Food could be a problem eventually, though I think the US is in pretty good shape. One would hope that we choose to grow food instead of fuel (ethanol), but people in Ireland starved while those in charge were exporting crops.

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This does nothing to further your thesis that we should be developing industrial jobs, does it? Sorry, there I go being arrogant again.

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While I certainly support maintaining manufacturing and manufacturing jobs in this country, the argument is a distraction from a bigger problem.

You don't think they're outsourcing abroad or importing workers from abroad to fill jobs that require a B.A., M.S., PhD, MD?

Have our Democrats in Congress protected us against these visa scams? Is it easier to get a Democrat to support increasing the budget for higher education in this country or to support increasing the number of visas for the foreign educated who will work cheaper?

There is a war on the American middle class and we have no National Guard or Reserves to fight it and we sure don't have a political party to fight it.

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Bravo, Flowerchild, once again. I wish I wasn't so tired of this. I wish I had been right that maybe Reich was just joking. I wish that Michigan, My Michigan wasn't dying a slow, excruciating death.

I hope I'm ready to do battle again soon. In the meantime, rage on, my friend--rage on.

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It does seem like this fight has been going on forever....but, it's only been 30 years. ;o) And, I ain't dead yet.

I have not attended to this blog as usual...my daughter drove 500 miles through the night to spend a few days with her parents so I am focused more on that at the moment. So, I will rage on after a brief intermission.

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Thank you, Flowerchild for telling it like it is.
Your post RAWKS! (not like the “Rock” in your title)

Pudding Lane is a short drive from here and now.

Who's Afraid of Industrial Policy?

Even after decades of downsizing, the auto industry still accounts for 25 percent of US manufacturing output. It provides jobs to about one out of every ten manufacturing workers, either directly or through a chain of parts makers, suppliers and related industries that support local economies in wide swaths of the country beyond Detroit. – Max Fraser, The Nation

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090601/fraser

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Remind me not to piss you off!

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Not much time, let me cut to the basics:

A country that cannot MAKE actual physical objects (of every level of complexity) cannot indefinitely maintain the respect of others, its own self-respect, or its place in the world (see 'British Empire').

This is the end of the story, be you PhD or 8th-grade dropout.

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I think that one of the biggest issues is our trade policy. Free trade has been nothing of the sort for American labor. While both capital and labor are moved freely across international boarders the productive output resulting from such movement is not so free to move. Many of our largest trading partners still impose tariffs and otherwise protect their domestic markets while maximally exploiting ours. American capitalists relocated domestic manufacturing abroad, not for the purpose of expanding capacity to meet growth in foreign demand, but rather to export products for sale back in to U.S. markets. Those same interests also lobbied the U.S. government (the true problem) to further open domestic U.S. markets to the products of such "outsourcing". The result has been NAFTA, China MFN trade status, both signed by Bill Clinton, among other culprit governmental actions. The reason for this, of course, was because it allowed capitalists to pocket more profit by bypassing U.S. wage rates and U.S. economic infrastructure(i.e., transportation systems, power and water distribution, law enforcement and courts, stable government and military) support costs, those very things which have made U.S. domestic consumer markets so desirable. It is no accident that free trade has not equalled fair trade for the American worker and small business.

It seem to me that the key to future American employment and wage growth lay in correcting trade policy unfairness, along with solid international intellectual property protection. Without such trade corrections and 'idea' protections any significant new U.S. created industries (i.e., green energy) would soon be outsourced as well. Those economic incentives to outsourcing American production that are rooted in unfair trade policy have to be removed. The international financial system is so intertwined, however, that it would be short-term risky for the U.S. government to press for an equitable treatment of international trade barriers. Particularly since we now owe so much of our national ass, in the form of T-bills, to many of the foreign interests whom we need to so press.

BTW, so called "knowledge" jobs will not fix the outlook for Americans as information technology has made such jobs the least costly to outsource. With no physical plant to move or construct, along with excellent foreign technical Universities, especially in India and China, essentially all that's physically needed is a desk, a PC, and Internet access.

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So we all ride around on bicycles and deliver pizza to each other, huh?

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You and newt are making me more depresseder by the minute.

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It just occurred to me that 400 years go whites came to this continent abd began exploitation. This nation arose and prospered until recently when we stopped exploiting it and producing things. We now allow the rest of the world to exploit US except in these days they do not even need to show up on the continent. They can do us from anywhere in the world.

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~flowerchild~

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