Islam as Historical Myth
As someone who has encountered no credible evidence that the protagonist of the Christian gospels ever existed, I have decided to treat reports of his activities as historical myth. And having now done some reading (but no where near the amount or extent I've done on the Jesus Myth) I see no reason why this same stance should not be taken in respect to Mohammed and accounts of the history of early Islam.
The generally accepted history - written hundreds of years after the events it reports -- is that a couple of years after the death of an Arab named Mohammed (632 CE), the Arabs, enthused in their new religion, poured out of the Arabian peninsula and quickly subjugated the Near East and Egypt.
I have searched the internets for any contemporaneous account of this conquest and have come up empty. One would have thought that the affected empires, the Byzantine and the Sassanid, would have noticed, but neither seems to have. And the story makes no sense given what we do know of the history of the Near East.
For hundreds of years Arabs had lived sedentary rural lives within the bounds of the Roman and Byzantine Empires (Southern Syria and Eastern Palestine) and the Sassanid Empire (West of the Euphrates). They provided defenses against border brigandage and troops at times of war. In the Seventh Century they were the Gassanids and the Lakhmids and lived, here. Both groups were Christians, Monophysites and Nestorians, heretics as far as Byzantium was concerned. What would make anyone think that these Arab Christians would, overnight, abandon their faith and become Muslims? Or that a bunch of ragtag pastoralists would overwhelm these warrior societies?
I am most intrigued by the claim that a mighty battle took place between the Byzantine army and these Muslim peninsular Arabs "over six days in August 636, near the Yarmouk River" at which the Byzantines were routed and forced out of Syria and Palestine forever. The <i>Wikipedia</i> entry provides an exhaustive description. Who could doubt its veracity?
And yet, the notes reveal that the primary source is a Persian historian named "al-Tabari" (838-923 CE), who is said to have relied upon one "Ibn Ishaq" (died 767c.). Both men were hagiographers of Islam's founders and of the Arab race (bias), and for neither were the events contemporaneous. As I noted above with the respect to the broader "conquest," here, also, I've searched and have found no contemporary report of this battle.
Does anyone have better information? Is this simply an example of the historical myth of Islam?
The generally accepted history - written hundreds of years after the events it reports -- is that a couple of years after the death of an Arab named Mohammed (632 CE), the Arabs, enthused in their new religion, poured out of the Arabian peninsula and quickly subjugated the Near East and Egypt.
I have searched the internets for any contemporaneous account of this conquest and have come up empty. One would have thought that the affected empires, the Byzantine and the Sassanid, would have noticed, but neither seems to have. And the story makes no sense given what we do know of the history of the Near East.
For hundreds of years Arabs had lived sedentary rural lives within the bounds of the Roman and Byzantine Empires (Southern Syria and Eastern Palestine) and the Sassanid Empire (West of the Euphrates). They provided defenses against border brigandage and troops at times of war. In the Seventh Century they were the Gassanids and the Lakhmids and lived, here. Both groups were Christians, Monophysites and Nestorians, heretics as far as Byzantium was concerned. What would make anyone think that these Arab Christians would, overnight, abandon their faith and become Muslims? Or that a bunch of ragtag pastoralists would overwhelm these warrior societies?
I am most intrigued by the claim that a mighty battle took place between the Byzantine army and these Muslim peninsular Arabs "over six days in August 636, near the Yarmouk River" at which the Byzantines were routed and forced out of Syria and Palestine forever. The <i>Wikipedia</i> entry provides an exhaustive description. Who could doubt its veracity?
And yet, the notes reveal that the primary source is a Persian historian named "al-Tabari" (838-923 CE), who is said to have relied upon one "Ibn Ishaq" (died 767c.). Both men were hagiographers of Islam's founders and of the Arab race (bias), and for neither were the events contemporaneous. As I noted above with the respect to the broader "conquest," here, also, I've searched and have found no contemporary report of this battle.
Does anyone have better information? Is this simply an example of the historical myth of Islam?
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Yeah sauce for the goose....
Just pisses a lot of people off. But hey, we are all grown ups.
There are threads going back thousands of years before Mohammed. I always saw him as a warrior.
May 17, 2009 9:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
What about Spain and India?
May 17, 2009 10:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seriously --
What about them?
May 18, 2009 9:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Damn, you're right, Ellen. I just looked it up in Wikipedia and Zoroastrianism is still the official religion of Iran. How could I have missed that?
May 18, 2009 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or Dearborn, MI?
I'm afraid the fact that one finds Muslims in a particular location a millennium and a half or so after the religion's supposed date of foundation doesn't explain a lot about anything.
May 18, 2009 8:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
A millennium? The Sassanid empire fell within a decade or two of Mohammed's death. A hundred years later, Muslim troops had taken Spain and crossed into France. And, as Lalo notes, parts of India.
If you are arguing that initial explosive expansion of Islam is in doubt, the burden is on you to make the case.
Has the specific Battle of Yarmouk been aggrandized by the victors or downplayed by the losers? Or a little of both? Sounds plausible; it happens all the time.
But in what way would that be evidence for or against the historical existence of Mohammed?
Like the New Testament account of Jesus, the Quran is short on biographical details. Rough dates of births and deaths, names of family members, and some improbable tales of wondrous doings. Ninety per cent oral tradition, collected and embellished years after the fact.
Can we discern the real personality, character and motivation of Jesus or Mohammed beneath the later layers of religiosity and orthodoxy? No.
Is that the same as calling them fictions? No.
May 19, 2009 2:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Doesn't Angels & Demons cover this off?
And I know I'll kick myself for asking, but how did Christianity get launched, if JC wasn't around? Some unknown genius/madman write it up? Maybe drawing on their knowledge of fave Egyptian myths? Or did a trip to Tibet &/or Ireland tip the balance?
May 17, 2009 11:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
You could ask the same of Scientology ...
May 18, 2009 10:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
I believe his name was Saul of Tarsus, and he didn't even meet JC.
May 18, 2009 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
"he didn't even meet JC."
What about that road to Damascus meet up?
May 18, 2009 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't know if this is snark, but Paul met a 'vision' not a man.
May 18, 2009 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe you should give more credence to visions since there is a chance that we are all just holograms anyway.
http://tinyurl.com/9rgepd
May 18, 2009 3:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
If this is intended as satire, it's way too subtle for me. My decoder ring just melted.
May 18, 2009 2:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Poe's law
May 18, 2009 9:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
I loved this. Seriously. It resonates.
May 18, 2009 6:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
If you can't find any historical evidence of Jesus or Mohamed, you must have forgotten to remove your blindfold.
About 100 years after the death of the man who is believed to be the historical Jesus, there were already written records of a sharp divide between the Gnostics and the Orthodoxy. Given that it is widely believed that for the first few decades of Christianity everything was passed by word of mouth, this is REALLY good evidence of the existence of Jesus. In fact, there's a great deal of circumstantial evidence that the crucifixion and resurrection took place.
As for Mohamed, he and his family formed a dynasty that ruled the Arabian peninsula. His existence has never really been a matter of debate. He is as historic as Joseph Smith, and equally credible.
You seem like you confuse evidence with proof, a common trait among smug atheists.
May 18, 2009 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
As for Mohamed . . . His existence has never really been a matter of debate.
Why not?
Credo quia absurdum?
May 18, 2009 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually it has.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad
May 18, 2009 11:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
The myth of Santa Clause has been around for at least a hundred years. Does that mean we should now take his existence as fact? Thomas Paine pretty much debunked the entire biblical account of everything more than 200 years ago. Faith and facts rarely mix.
May 18, 2009 11:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why does this matter? All these religions mix historical events with made-up facts to serve their self-delusions. The more this nonsense is treated seriously, the more people are apt to worship at the altar of irrationality.
May 18, 2009 10:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Personally, I dig the altar of rationality. You know, rational self-interest, rational economic actors, rational voting behavior, independent academics, objective journalists, *snort snort guffaw.*
Sorry dude. If Ellen really wants to hunt down dangerous true believers and their cults, I'd suggest she give up the burning desert sand and head to NYC.
They even got their own Wailing Wall, I hear.
May 18, 2009 11:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well... as long as we're pointing out historical myth, there is no archeological evidence for Solomon, David, Joshua, Moses, and certainly none for Abraham or any of his immediate decendants (the Genesis account of Joseph in Egypt is a wonderful, Arabian Nights-like yarn). The first documentary proof of a king in Judea/Israel is Josiah in the seventh century.
May 18, 2009 11:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
FYI speaking of historical myths:
New Torah For Modern Minds
By MICHAEL MASSING
New York Times Saturday, March 9, 2002
Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/09/books/new-torah-for-modern-minds.html
May 18, 2009 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Granted that history and myth are oft woven together inseparably, why do you ask?
"the myth of X" does not make X itself merely mythical nor does it make X a "never occurred nor existed" thing.
History, in the scientific sense, relies on evidence and coherent theory to infer from fragmentary evidence a likely pattern which "connects the dots" understandably. Good history doesn't settle for any ol' understanding but for falsifiable theory which stands out of the crowd.
Myth properly tells a story to "explain the unexplainable". Myth isn't quite fiction and it isn't quite fact. It's metaphysical in that it tries to enlighten where facts and evidence dare not tread.
Some myth is worth taking on. Some fictions are worth debunking. Some facts are misconstrued.
Why these myths, now?
May 18, 2009 3:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
In discussing myths I think we want to distinguish between historical myths and religio-foundational and salvation myths.
Mohammed's night ride on Buraq and his tour of heaven is of the latter type; the Battle of Yarmouk is of the former.
And it is historical myths which should be made subject to analysis and verification employing the tools of the historian.
Examples of historical myths: George Washington chopped down the cherry tree; the founders were Christians.
May 18, 2009 7:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps the distinction you need is between proper myth and fiction.
You are concerned that the Battle account is mostly or entirely fictional. As myth it serves its proper purpose if it enlightens or conditions spiritually. GW and the tree is a conditioning tool.
May 18, 2009 10:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
A suggestion --
Use Microsoft's Age of Conquerors' scenario builder to create a reenactment of the Battle of Yarmouk. The game has both Saracen (Arab)and Byzantine civilizations (I checked with my grandson). The game provides age and civilization specific weapons and warriors plus the ability to recreate the geography of the battlefield.
Here is a play-by-play of the six-day battle to help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Yarmouk
It could be great fun.
Then again, someone may have already created a reenactment at the gaming site you could play with instead but you would still need the game software to access it.
May 19, 2009 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're facing a bit of a problem. Find the Arabic equivalent to Wikipedia and go from there. Oh, right, you face an oral and written language barrier as well as the Western cultural and perhaps religious bias.
See the problem?
May 18, 2009 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I believe there is enough evidence to conclude that the historical Jesus lived. There is anecdotal, oral tradition, eyewitness accounts (the epistles of Peter and the Mishnah of the Talmud) and contemporaneous cults. There are written records of the Roman empire which tend to collaborate the new testament accounts and the events surrounding their accounts, so I think it is possible to conclude his existence.
May 18, 2009 5:56 PM | Reply | Permalink