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Rationalizing the Health Care Debate


Part 1 [adapted from comments in the linked thread]


TheraP ridicules a strawman and does it nicely. She defends the virtue of uniformity over diversity when it comes to health care and paying for it.

The fact is that not everyone has uniform health care values or needs, whether viewed at a moment in time or over a lifetime or over generations. Another fact: Health care is not monolithic, treatments and diagnoses are often heuristic and sometimes conflicting. And except in a non-evolving autocracy, having options is a fundamental principle of both nature and nurture. It's easy to misunderstand "degrees of freedom" and then play with words, harder to build an effective system which accounts for real degrees of freedom, whether in natural or cultural reality.

As we all know, personal responsibility does play a role in health, and therefore consequently in health care needs. And as we've seen on Wall St. recently "moral hazard" is a fact of the human condition. We won't make good progress if we only castigate a strawman notion or fence with windmills. If you want to argue that health care is a right rather than a privilege, you must also argue with equal eloquence for individual responsibility.

The USA is, and should remain, neither an anarcho-libertarian free market nor a communistic autocracy, when it comes to health care. The public interest in proper health care is not zero, nor should the individual get it for free.

TheraP's post demonstrates how not to take the straight line to a destination. To expedite, I suggest finding a better frame next time.

There are two key 2-D frames to consider from the demand side: Need and access, and cost and payment. There are similar frames from the supply side (doctors, hospitals, technology, ...).

A third frame is that of transition, if the "system" is to be transformed from the mucked up status quo, what are the transition costs (dollar and otherwise)? Economic and human dislocations need to be planned for and paid for.

A rational solution will not ignore any of these.



Part 2


Part 1 mentioned natural and cultural realities. 

I think the "sanctity of life" issue is not discussed enough. We mostly hear it from anti-social Fundamentalists who want to dictate the behavior of women of childbearing ages. But it applies to end of life scenarios, too.

Something like 1% of patients need over $150K medical care while the vast majority don't need anything more than a few $100s/yr. I've seen stats presented at TPM showing that huge fraction of health care cost is spent in the last months of life.  Here are two illustrative scenarios:

Spend a lot of money at decent odds of success failing to save a life which could on to be very productive, say, a 20 year old accident victim in good health; and, spend a lot of money keeping a bed-ridden octogenarian from dying so quickly, aka decent odds of death.

Both fit the simple criteria of $$ and end-of-life. The values in the two scenarios should be very clear, and very clearly different. While the contrast is clear, the frame is of course simple to the point of being simplistic. For example:  It does not illustrate the possible value to medical science or engineering of making the effort in one or perhaps both cases.  But it is accurately illustrative of value conflicts.

Until the culture shifts, both are technically legit expenses of money in service to health care. And with individuals spending their own earned income, few would complain more than perhaps an eye-roll's worth. But with second or third party involvement in payment for or delivery of services, the question of allocation of finite resources applies. At some point someone other than the individual may have to say, "pull the plug".

We don't need to make it a blanket 'either or' issue to see the problem. But in reality, resource allocation does often come down to that, whether we choose rationally, or wisely,  or not.  If we don't choose, then we choose to bankrupt ourselves on health care extravaganzas not even imaginable 100 years ago.

It would be interesting to see a more detailed breakdown of recent actual cost distributions over the "space" my comment defines. I have no idea where to find such, much less create my own graphs out of some raw data which might not be readily available.

This illustration is just one example of possible cultural conflicts which must be tractable in any rational health care system.  Do we promote assisted suicide?  Euthanasia?  Morphine for a week while someone dies?  Death with dignity without spending $100k in six months before the funeral expenses?

In what sense is life sacred?  In what sense shall we strive to hang on to life indefinitely?

I believe this is an issue in the health care debate, if perhaps often sub rosa.


 

 




23 Comments

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It is a debate. My goodness, hundreds, yea millions of different perspectives on all this.

TheraP has not said, hey--this is the only way. she says here I am. Here is my argument. I am on record, as the lowliest of the low, espousing Grouch's position. It is one of compromise.

TheraP does not respond, oh you idiot!!!!

eds, we need reform. the system does not work.

And you are well read. Give your ideas. I am ok with that.

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Further discussion by me will have to wait, I'm tempted to go out for the evening!

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Have fun eds. Have some fun!!!!

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I gave it a shot. Oh well.

"TheraP does not respond, oh you idiot!!!!"

What is that supposed to mean in this context?

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eds,
I notice that you refer to health CARE and not health insurance, until we eliminate the Insurance Companies and their "parasitical" role we will never have TRUE health CARE reform.

AHIP is the problem getting to reform.

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Yes, I don't attempt to uncover all bases at once, I'm neither that articulate nor is my thinking at complete.

I think "insurance" is a misnomer. Whether it's a big deal or merely a handy euphemism, I'm not sure, but it rubs me the wrong way. What we call "insurance" varies widely. Car owners carry insurance, Wall St. bought and sold insurance on securitized mortgages some of which were not owned by either party, there are a range of life insurance types out there (term, whole life), ...

We often mix up 'assurance' with 'insurance'. A safety net is not a pension plan, for instance, and lip service is talking the talk while not walking the walk. We also mix up paying for ongoing services with saving for a rainy day, and so HMOs appear to combine what I'd usually think of as insurance with what I'd usually think of as ordinary expenses.

So "insurance" is a loaded and possibly misleading term. It's about paying indirectly for health care, that much is clear to me. Whether the indirection is a good or a waste, whether it's restrictive of so-called "freedoms" or not, these are side issues which depend on the details of the indirection.

Indirection is indirect. TheraP curiously used indirection to critique indirection of one kind while promoting another. Single-payer is an indirect payment method, too. Single-payer proponents cite stats which are supposed to show that Medicare is much less inefficient than private insurance, something like 25-35% overhead for the latter vs. 5% for the former. That makes a Medicare-like version of Single-payer sound quite attractive. Of course these stats aren't definitive. For instance many doctors stopped accepting Medicare patients. Everyone can cite an anecdote. What to make of the grab bag results, but chaos?


Thanks for your comment.

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I'm neither that articulate nor is my thinking at complete.

Nah. You are just, occasionally, misunderstood.

Oy! The humility!

=D

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I try to be just. I suppose my words are occasionally misunderstood, too.

:-)

But in fact I cannot yet articulate a complete basis for the debate in one sitting. Maybe in another post.

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Thank you for the post.

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You're welcome. If you see this, could you share a bit more on topic or about what you appreciated in the post?

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You're welcome. If you see this, could you share a bit more on topic or about what you appreciated in the post?

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"Spend a lot of money at decent odds of success failing to save a life which could on to be very productive, say, a 20 year old accident victim in good health; and, spend a lot of money keeping a bed-ridden octogenarian from dying so quickly, aka decent odds of death."

Unfortunately, the 20 year old doesn't want to buy insurance because he is invinceable even after consuming a six pack and he's afraid some old codger is going to benefit from his insurance premium.

You can't value the life of the 20 year old more than the life of the 80 year old. What you can do is provide evidence based medical care so that the 80 year old isn't offered treatment this is unlikely to be effective. That is exactly how they handled my 83 year old father's cancer. He received neither the bone marrow transplant nor the chemo that a 20 year old would have received.

On the other hand, my 75 year old mother received a hip replacement and at 87 she is still walking, driving and enjoying a relatively pain free life.

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Sorry, reply is below.

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"Unfortunately, the 20 year old doesn't want to buy insurance because he is invinceable even after consuming a six pack and he's afraid some old codger is going to benefit from his insurance premium."

This is the simplistic argument that I disagree with most in this debate about "insurance." While there may be a few 20-year-olds out there playing Russian roulette with their lives because they think they are "invincible," most I know are not. They are college grads making a decision to pay off student loans (which left unpaid ruin credit histories and making getting a good job, buying car or home or leasing an apartment difficult) or they are non-college grads working in minimum wage or low-paying jobs where the decision is either made for them (no employer-based insurance) or they cannot afford the premiums.

The problem in this debate is that the focus is on cost and insurance, and not prevention and care. Stated another way, we don't need to concentrate on selling insurance policies, which is what mandating universal health insurance does, but on providing quality, affordable healthcare to every American. There comes a point in this argument where we have to say, if countries "poorer" than us can do this, we can too.

We have plenty of money to build weaponry and wage war, but never enough to care for our people? We can fund the war in Iraq, but not provide health care?

Priorities.

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Yes, your mother is not a representative case of "end of life costs", she's more a counter example which shows that life isn't over until it's over!

"unlikely to be effective" is not a sound general criterion. Sometimes longshots should be taken.

You can indeed make comparative value assessments, but not as your words might suggest. You just need a rational metric, a means of measurement which makes sense. This might involve the culture shift I mentioned, and your father's case fits even if you put the emphasis on "unlikely to be effective". It's not that you judge one person over the other as a person, but you'd judge their potential productivity, in effect, their ability to pay back the investment. We already judge criminals, and we evaluate generally based on ability and potential, so I don't see this as perverse even if it might seem radical.

I realize that this can be spun in a ghoulish or soulless manner, but I encourage the reader to think outside of those boxes. The point is that it's not as simple as your father's case would have it.

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Eds, I don't know if bluebells parents are typical cases. I'd need more stats on that. I do know my mom may need knee surgery - right now they are trying alternatives and surgery will be the last resort. She is a very active and vital 83 and should remain that way for as long as she can. Here is where I think the amount spent on health care for the older person may be more than the with the younger. The cost of knee surgery is less than the cost of the problems that will occur if my mother is immoblized. Being as I am going to be moving back home to help my parents out (my dad is a different story) at the end of the month, I am really focused on this issue. Thank you for posting.

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Well, this is not an argument for killing off the unproductive! The context is the last six months or so of life and why so much money is spent then. The likely implication of this is that the money is largely spent failing to keep someone alive at the last minute. Knee surgery for someone who lives 5 years, or even more than one year, would not be an example of "end of life" in this sense.

If you mom had a deadly disease with a prognosis of death in 12 months, would the knee operation be something to go for (assuming it was ruled out on strict medical grounds)?

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assuming it was NOT ruled out


sigh...

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Good points eds. There definitely has to be some kind of cost/benefit analyses/formulae which factor in age variables/longevity expectations in a universal health care system. I would also think there would be some kind of appeals/review procedure through which decisions can be challenged.

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"The problem in this debate is that the focus is on cost and insurance, and not prevention and care."

I don't see that in my post or in the particular example. Which part of which debate are you referencing, Jade? The focus of part 2 is on values, potential end of life decisions. Neither part discusses insurance, and cost is only one of four factors mentioned, and mentioned in passing. Take another look?

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private insurance bureaucracy and paperwork consume one-third (31 percent) of every health care dollar. Streamlining payment through a single nonprofit payer would save more than $350 billion per year, ... -- PNHP
This is a bit off the core topic.

31% of every dollar would include dollars spent by Medicare and by private payers, as well as private insurers. Or does it mean that 31% of private insurance dollars goes to paperwork etc?

The former implies that the overhead is much more that 31% of private insurance billings, since private insurance is only a fraction of total coverage.

If the 31% figure could be reduced to 6%, then 25% of whatever = $350B, so the whatever would be $1.4T. That looks like only the private insurance part. If so then it's not "every".


Anyone have details on where 31% and $350B come from? The PNHP site doesn't appear to justify them.

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(late comment, I came here via your link in a more recent thing)

I don't know the source of the original figures. However, the huge overhead is purely for private insurance dollars. Medicare overhead (from whatever source the "1/3" number comes from, I assume) is in the 1 to 2 percent range.

The large fraction of private insurance dollars going to "paperwork" (really, "administrative") makes sense to me: if you ask at a doctor-group office, you will find that they typically have at least one full-time employee whose job is simply to deal with insurance paperwork, and other employees (including the doctors) also deal with insurance paperwork. If you add up the fraction of the doctors' time plus the part- and full-time support staff, it comes to at least 10 percent of the practice's cash flow.

Clearly, money spent at the insurance company itself is also money not spent on actual health-care-delivery. If this is about twice what the delivery-group themselves spend, and theirs is a bit over 10%, then the total is going to be around one third.

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.

How apropos . . .

Mister "Calculator and Spreadsheet" Eds? Sending people off on a tangent and wild goose chase instead of discussing an issue in the original thread?

Gee ... I'm not surprised.

~OGD~

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