Oh, the profits of reverse engineering! (or, damn, I hope this is not another shrieking post in the interminable series on torture)
The Chinese seem to do it better than any. They can take everything from iTunes to $300 Callaway golf clubs tear it down, meticulously copy it and manufacture it on the fly. The only problem is that, as remarkable as their copycat factories are, they produce an inferior product. But that is the objective- free patents, trademarks and copyrights, added to cheap materials and labor, produce a cheap product that can be sold on ebay at amazing bargain-basement prices! However, the Callalway driver doesn't drive anything like the real Callaway because the metal core has been changed. It looks perfect from the outside; a beautiful Callaway driver, but it is not a Callaway. Outside it looks good; inside it is mush.
Our torture regime is eerily similar to
From a 1957 study of the Chinese methods in
It's widely reported that we reverse engineered the SERE program to produce our "enhanced interrogations." SERE was designed to train soldiers to resist, not the usual harsh interrogations that might come from a weaker enemy, but the extreme and absolute torture used by the Chinese, Russians, etc. So you could say it was reverse engineering itself. And two reverses make a forward.
Sounds remarkably like former American Psychologist Assn. President Martin Seligman's "learned helplessness" which was used in SERE (although Seligman used electric shock on dogs to "teach" helplessness in his experiments). We basically just adopted the Chinese and Russian Gulag methods studied at length in the past but converted from the reverse SERE program, which was based on those same Communist methods. Senator Durbin, labeled a traitor, had to get up and tearfully apologize to the country for calling
To state the obvious, we have been using the very torture techniques that we have condemned for decades (centuries?). And the object was not to maim or inflict physical harm on the suspect; it was to break him down mentally through a systemic combination of sustained abuses and deprivations. It was to damage the core of a suspect to get him to talk. And it does get them to talk, to say whatever their, by now, fragile minds think the interrogator wants to hear. That this talk might be babble, doesn't mean it's useless. The value of the information extracted by squeezing the mental life out of a person is, in all likelihood, going to be worthless as "actionable intelligence" but not worthless for other means.
The only question, then, is how did we profit from this? What did we get out of it? I do not doubt that there was more than a little vengeance involved, at least initially. Emotions were running high after 9/11, not without reason and I believe the military and intelligence agencies have been used that way before. But the real motivation could not have been only that. And I doubt they were getting much good intelligence for the effort expended. If real intelligence that thwarted real attacks had been uncovered, the Bush administration would have broadcast it, in some way, far and wide. After all, they broadcast many trumped-up or overblown plots and arrests of mentally deranged "terrorists." They trumpeted info from one case, obtained from a laptop, without torture I presume, even though the announcements blew a months long extensive British investigation into the group.
But, think of the Bush administration pre- vs. post- 9/11. They obtained their power and mandate from the WOT. I think if one scans the literature on these recycled torture techniques, one will find that they do not produce good intel, generally, but they do produce confessions and leads, even if they are false ones. And confessions were proof that our WOT was effective. Leads needed to be chased down. The US Government was keeping
















You golf?!
Who knew?
Thank you Don. From the bottom of my little chicken heart. I don't understand this apathy. I think I may be beginning to understand the apathy of the Germans in WWII, (which always bewildered me).
Willful ignorance? I dunno, but whatever it is, it's dark and ugly.
April 21, 2009 9:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
[Excuse the ongoing editing. This posted before I could clean it up.]
I think your 'little chicken heart' is very big. (Golfed a little long ago (Dorf) but can't due to ruptured disks).
I think a lot of things are at play right now: personal travails in a collapsing economy, too much faith in the man not the office (congress too), and not least, establishment media either reframing or ignoring, and public ignorance of, what's happened. If those videos had been released, you can bet it would not be excused or ignored.
If everyone in DC, from President down, is calling the people involved heroes who were just doing whatever necessary to protect us from the evil-doers, how can you criticize that?
April 21, 2009 10:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
[Excuse the ongoing editing. This posted before I could clean it up.]
I think your 'little chicken heart' is very big. (Golfed a little long ago (Dorf) but can't due to ruptured disks).
I think a lot of things are at play right now: personal travails in a collapsing economy, too much faith in the man not the office (congress too), and not least, establishment media either reframing or ignoring, and public ignorance of, what's happened. If those videos had been released, you can bet it would not be excused or ignored.
If everyone in DC, from President down, is calling the people involved heroes who were just doing whatever necessary to protect us from the evil-doers, how can you criticize that?
April 21, 2009 10:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
When you're working on a post, next time, immediately, from the get-go, switch from "print" to "draft" on the blog now page. That will save you from what happened before you were ready to to to print. (Trust me, I've been there. And learned from it!)
Great of you to blog on this.
April 22, 2009 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks. I wrote a quick rough draft in Word (unfortunately with HTML tags for all the links too). I copied it and when prompted by my browser to "save password," it posted. And then the double comment- oi! Believe me, I'll remember your advice next time!
April 22, 2009 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sure you will.... ;)
April 22, 2009 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
We got lots of nuthin'.
April 22, 2009 10:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Out of over 700 detainees in Gitmo, most were innocent. At one point, the military even admitted in their own report that half may have been wrongly accused But that didn’t stop them from holding and abusing them.
Colin Powell’s Chief of Staff claims that, at most, a couple of dozen were actual fighters or terrorists. He describes the rationalizations for holding and “interrogating” innocent people (from Wash. Note):
April 22, 2009 11:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is a brilliant blog! It brings to bear new thinking, not just recycling known info. I stand in awe of your thinking here.
I may post a further comment. As there's so much about this "reverse-engineering" that is despicable! (particularly to a psychologist!)
April 22, 2009 10:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Torture "worked" to maintain repub power. It "worked" to keep the war going. It "worked" to get us to a near-dictatorship. It "worked" to ruin the bodies and spirits of victims and captors alike.
And now "torture" will "work" to drive a stake straight through the heart of the republican party and of all those who willingly did their bidding!
Don't forget in terms of "reverse-engineering" the work of Stanley Milgram: Obedience to Authority. Psychologists were in charge of the torture process. And misused their authority to give cover for crimes against humanity!
April 22, 2009 10:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Let's not blame the republican party for the decades of systemic CIA and executive branch abuse this blog hints at.
America has done all kinds of heinous shit under the direction of presidents from both parties since at least the end of World War II and really since the founding of the nation. It didn't start with Bush and certainly won't end with Obama unless we can expand our thinking on this issue as it plays out over the coming months. I think there is an opportunity to change the paradigm of this country to one that lives up to its ideals rather than simply paying lip service to them, but it will require a mea culpa from more than those citizens to the right of the political spectrum.
We have long been a nation of do as I say and not as I do.
April 22, 2009 11:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jason, there we differ.
April 22, 2009 11:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
So you think only republicans have practiced this behavior? I can detail tons of operations that happened under both parties over the last sixty years that gives lie to that position. Are you honestly saying that we have only betrayed our ideals under republican leadership? Seems an overly narrow scope for our efforts, one that won't actually help fix the problems you care so much about fixing.
April 22, 2009 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
For me, what is really sick about the Bush Regime was their demand that the world approve of their interpretation and decision. At least previously the leadership would be somewhat apologetic about what was being done. They would practice torture until they were caught, then concede that it was wrong and take another tack. Bush simply declared, contrary to all evidence to the contrary, that it was needed and it really wasn't torture. It was an insult to any intelligent person but a relief to the stupid people who bought that line of BS, because, whew, they thought it was torture and that bothered them, but if you say it's not, then I do not have to be bothered by it anymore.
At the end of the day, if Republicans are upset because we identify the deeds with their party, if their party were to disavow those deeds, we might see our way to finding them more acceptable. Instead, we hear the Rush Limbaugh is the leader of the Republican Party and no one has the stones to say anything different.
April 22, 2009 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess my main point is that we can only change the practice if we look at all the historical context that led us here.
By concentrating solely on the latest group of "leaders" to abuse their positions of authority, we run the risk of turning it into a partisan affair rather than one of national reckoning. I can't recall any administration fessing up to torture, democrat or republican, as a national security policy, no matter how deeply buried the practice.
We need to disavow the practice as a country, not as members of this or that political party. That requires a broader scope than this comment would suggest.
April 22, 2009 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree. I suspect when the thing unravels there will be members of Congress from both parties with blood on their hands, so to speak.
What has recently become a growing thought for me that I am trying to express is that our opportunity is now to dismantle the partisanship, to find our commonalities and reach for those "higher angels". I do put blame on the Reich for their aggressive tactics. There is no getting around the "K" street project, the corrosive infiltration of the OLC by individuals members of both parties would agree lack substance, or the tendency to suggest there are un-Americans in our midst. McCarthy was discredited once already. We need to do the same to enable us to work together to right this ship.
April 22, 2009 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you're dissembling, jason.
"By concentrating solely on the latest group of "leaders" to abuse their positions of authority, we run the risk of turning it into a partisan affair rather than one of national reckoning."
We MUST focus on the current issues (concentrate solely). But you would be correct to say we must not ignore the background. And when looking at the background, we MUST NOT even hint at making excuses for the Bush Administration.
The time for excuses is at sentencing, not a moment sooner (to make an analogy to US system of justice). Yes, plea bargains happen but that in effect is early sentencing. Your comments go over the line in my view, the line between standing up for due process and wide consciousness, and on the other hand defensive dissembling.
The risk of making it excessively partisan is a risk to be taken (worth taking) with eyes open and with attention to keeping it from becoming mere partisan bashing. But if it is a fact that significant members of a Repo Administration are the recent culprits, hiding from that fact is as wrong-headed as would be to blame all Repos for the faults of some.
If you want to blame George Tenet, too, have at it but make a case, a sound argument.
April 22, 2009 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would be happy to see a full fledged investigation that was able to pry into all the nooks and crannies the CIA and our military industrial complex have built over the last 60 years.
If that leads to indictments and then convictions for what most of us suspect was going on, then I see no reason not to lock the convicted away for the rest of their lives. If we are unable to secure indictments and/or convictions as a result of that process, then at the very least I expect we put mechanisms (which will probably involve rolling back some laws and passing new ones) in place that ensure this never happens again.
I agree that there should be no dissembling or excuses for anyone involved in these atrocities that are so brutally described in the memos. Beyond simple justice is the need to finally, after more than 230 years of trying, live up to our founding documents.
April 22, 2009 6:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Okay, but let's not abandon pulling over someone for speeding just because we can't get all of the speeders. Or say that we must pull over as many speeders in red cars as we do in blue cars, even though there are 300 red cars speeding and only 30 blue cars, therefore we cannot pull over more then 30 red cars.
Right now, it IS about the Bush Regime. I'm not sure there are rivals to the extent he promulgated torture, nor with the willful abandonment of every legal precedent to date. Instead he relied on a very poorly crafted legal opinion. Are we now going to give attorneys a cloak of infallibility? What they opine is legal until a court says otherwise, so as long as we can approach the same issue from a new angle each time we can perpetuate torture? I believe we are not pursuing W because he is a Republican. We are pursuing him because of his role in revitilizing an arcane practice with no rational purpose other then the pleasure of a twisted mind.
April 22, 2009 6:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
You nailed it, though I don't think it was the point you were trying to make. We don't pull over most speeders, in red or blue cars, so the argument isn't about speeders it is about enforcing the law no matter what color car it is.
That requires acknowledging that we don't currently pull most people over for breaking traffic laws in order to address the underlying reason why that is the case. The Bush administration followed every precedent leading up to their watch. He just did it in the open, under the clear blue sky, with no apologies to anyone. Other presidents were more circumspect and kept our dirty deeds in the closet.
I guess the case could be made that we should thank George Junior for bringing that shit out into the light so we could stop it. Until he came along, it was all done on a wink and a nudge and with deep, dark piles of black ops money that went beneath the public's notice. We can't pretend that 60 years of Cold War policy never existed.
The CIA has been doing this shit for a long time and that can't be ignored as we seek to remedy the situation.
April 22, 2009 6:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ahhh…to dream…
Does it not seem at times like half of the energy spent by our government is in pursuit of CYA?
I listened to Amy Goodman interview Jane Harman yesterday and couldn’t believe her attitude about being wiretapped considering her history (all the while pretending not to remember any conversations that may have occurred, if they did indeed occur). Whether you like Glenn Greenwald or not, he had a great take on it this morning.
April 22, 2009 7:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am not typically in agreement with Greenwald from a methodology perspective, but that was awesome. Thanks for the link.
April 22, 2009 8:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're distracting again when you talk about the last 60 years. I guess I should not expect better from you.
April 22, 2009 8:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lovely ad hominem. I guess I shouldn't have expected better from you. Did you have something relevant to add or are you just kvtching?
April 22, 2009 8:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jason, I don't disagree, and some of it in the past had to do with the WH acquiescing to military or intelligence leaders and advisers (I'm thinking mostly of JFK here). And certainly a president like, say, Reagan, with Iran Contra or support of dictators and death squads in El Salvador and elsewhere, was committing acts as "extralegal" as some of the things Bush has done.
But you have to admit; BushCo took things to a completely new level. No administration, in modern history anyway, is in their league. It seems to me that they were mostly ad-libbing one inept action after another, clothed in macho posturing, and hidden behind state secrets, all for the purpose of covering up their previous bungling.
It wasn’t so much that they were on a mission to abuse their office and the constitution as they just didn’t care. On 9/12/2001, they were trembling in the WH trying to come up with something that would distract the public from rightfully blaming them for being asleep at the wheel the day before. And the Frankenstein they created, the Great WOT, to a certain degree had a life of its own. Could the handling of “enemy combatants or the aftermath of the Iraq invasion have been any more incompetent?
April 22, 2009 3:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Could the handling of “enemy combatants or the aftermath of the Iraq invasion have been any more incompetent?
No. It was so bad that it has Richard Perle, one of the main architects and cheerleaders of the war, denying that neo-conservatism exists, denying that he is a neo-conservatist and if it did exist, denying that neo-conservatism has a foreign policy.
April 22, 2009 6:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
No argument from me on that. The Bush White House was the culmination of 230 years of paying lip service to our founding principles. We codified many of those ideals as the Constitution and then power promptly began working the creases for any advantage it could find.
John Adams was a great man in many respects, but he capitulated to political expediency in ways that set the stage for George Junior and his merry band of fascists. Washington wrote the script for the chief executive to follow and none but a handful ever did. Even some of our most celebrated presidents have dark underbellies filled with hidden abuses, deep regrets and missed opportunities.
I would be happy to see an America that wasn't afraid to slaughter its sacred cows in an effort to live up to its charter.
April 22, 2009 6:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do not doubt that there was more than a little vengeance involved, at least initially. Emotions were running high after 9/11, not without reason and I believe the military and intelligence agencies have been used that way before.
Emotions may have been running high after 9/11, Don, but by 2005 when these latest memos were concocted, it's hard to believe they were so high that they blinded any rational considerations.
As Jeffrey Record put it in Bounding the Global War on Terrorism:
And that was before the torture stuff came out.
April 22, 2009 6:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Absolutely, seashell. That's what I was trying to get at following that statement. But stoking the desire for payback with fear of more attacks and demonization of Muslims was a powerful tool used to influence, not only the general public, but the military, media producers, editors and pundits, and especially, congress.
As I say in the previous comment, I believe many of the Decider's decisions were made to cover the blunders of previous decisions. What motivated Bush....Cheney....Rumsfeld at their core, though, is a complicated question with many answers requiring a genius analyst; it’s not something I could ever unravel(it’s a rotten egg wrapped in a ball of mud at the bottom of a stinking swamp).
Above everything, though, Bush had to maintain a permanent war footing and periodic confessions and plots uncovered through “interrogations,”along with high levels of “chatter,” and maintaining a continuous high threat alert (almost martial law conditions) kept it going. I think, through 2005 at least, the country was undergoing its own brainwashing and "learned helplessness."
April 22, 2009 7:30 PM | Reply | Permalink