RULES OF DECORUM
The valley spirit never dies;
It is the woman, primal mother.
Her gateway is the root of heaven and earth
It is like a veil barely seen
Use it, it will never fail
Tao Te Ching (Ch-6)
Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please
Mark Twain
| Joe Wilson |
 |
As usual, I must reproduce a document with some abridgement to make my point. Using a damn link just does not do it for me. But I have enough of a following, that if I am read, THEY HAVE TO READ WHAT I QUOTE. HAHAHAHAHA!
The Origins of the Decorum Rules
The Rules of the House give the Speaker broad authority to maintain decorum in the House. Much of this authority is codified in Rule XVII, but is also contained in Jefferson's Manual, which is incorporated by reference into the Rules of the House. The Rules, when combined with the principles described in Jefferson's Manual and the precedents of the House form the basis of the decorum rules in the House. The intent is to provide an atmosphere where the Members of the House debate the legislative issues before them, rather than engaging in "personality" by characterizing the actions of another Member or showing disrespect to the institution.
Dress and Comportment
....A Member must stand while speaking and address the Chair in their remarks (Mister or Madam Speaker; Mister or Madam Chairman). They must also refrain from addressing other Members, the President, the gallery, or the television viewing audience.
Members are required to avoid walking between the Chair and any Member addressing the House and Members should not walk through the well of the House when Members are speaking.
Exhibits
Although Members are permitted to use exhibits such as charts during debate, exhibits which demean the House or a Member of the House, or otherwise violate the rules of decorum are prohibited. Any Member may object to the use of an exhibit, and the Speaker may submit the question of the propriety of the exhibit to the House without a ruling, requiring that the House vote on whether or not the exhibit should be permitted. Similarly, Members are prohibited from wearing badges to convey political messages while speaking.
Unparliamentary Speech
A Member should avoid impugning the motives of another Member, the Senate or the President, using offensive language, or uttering words that are otherwise deemed unparliamentary. These actions are strictly against House Rules and are subject to a demand that the words be taken down. A demand that the Member's words be taken down results in the clerk reporting the words and the chair ruling on the propriety of the words. (If the demand is made in the Committee of the Whole, the Committee rises and reports them to the House where the Chair rules on their propriety).
The offending Member may obtain unanimous consent to withdraw the inappropriate words or the demand may be withdrawn. Following such a withdrawal, the Member proceeds in order. However, if the Member's words are ruled out of order, they may be stricken from the Congressional Record by motion or unanimous consent, and the Member will not be allowed to speak again on that day except by motion or unanimous consent.
References to the Senate or Executive Branch
Until the 109th Congress, it was not in order to make certain references to the Senate or individual senators. However, at the beginning of that Congress, the House removed the prohibition on making references to the Senate, leaving only the requirement that debate be confined to the question under debate and avoid "personality." The precedents of the House allow a wide latitude in criticism of the President, other executive officials, and the government itself. However, it is not permissible to use language that is personally offensive to the President, such as referring to him as a "hypocrite" or a "liar." Similarly, it is not in order to refer to the President as "intellectually dishonest" or an action taken by the President as "cowardly." References to the Vice President, in spite of his role as President of the Senate, are measured against the standard used for the President rather than prior standards used to govern the Senate. http://rules-republicans.house.gov/Educational/Read.aspx?ID=5
All righty then. There are some basic rules in life that we are supposed to follow in polite society:
1. You do not makes jokes out loud about having a bomb WHEN YOU ARE IN AN AIRPORT.
2. You do not yell 'FUCK YOU' at the minister when you are present at one of her sermons.
3. Do not fart in an elevator.
4. You do not ask to grasp a woman's teets in the workplace.
5. If you are married, you should ask before grasping your spouse's teets.
6. Do not kick small children or puppies unless they are somehow rude to you.
7. Close your goddamnable zipper, especially when arguing in the courtroom.
8. Do not blow your nose in an intensive care room and while we are at it don't ask the patient to sign legal documents while in a condition that got him into intensive care in the first place.
9. Never ask someone for a light who is hooked up to an oxygen tank.
10. Never play with yourself while using a public phone and then switch hands in the middle of a conversation.
11. Do not scratch your arse and then offer it for handshakes.
12. Do not throw up on your escort at the prom.
13. Do not spit on the tips you intend for the waitress.
14. Do not shite where other people eat.
15. Try not to call Quinn an illiterate Canadian when he is at his keyboard.
Okay, everybody is a little upset about Joe Wilson's outburst except the KKK, The American Nazi Party and fathead dobbs. But think about this.
There were repubs carrying signs during the Presidential Address Before the Joint Session of Congress.
There were repubs booing during the Presidential Adress Before the Joint Session of Congress.
One repub just got up and walked out during the Presidential Address Before the Joint Session of Congress.
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/gop-rep-walks-out-of-obamas-speech-to-congress.php
There were repubs blackberring or tweeting or sleeping during the Presidential Address Before the Joint Session of Congress.
There were repubs wondering (secretly) where George Allen was with his lynching ropes and confederate flag during the Presidential Speech before the Joint Session of Congress..
You know, if you do not make enough 'cuts' in professional golf, they send you down to Q school. In the minors if you are one of the top twenty or thirty in the 'point system' after the end of a season, you are invited back into the 'PGA'.
Smokin Joe Wilson should be sent back to Q school.
I must say that I get my political kicks while watching the House of Commons across the pond. When the Iraq War was in full swing, I actually think I learned more information about Iraq from watching the debate in the House of Commons than I did from the American media.
I think the best line I have EVER! heard in the House of Commons came when a Conservative told Tony Blair that he had more positions than the Kama Sutra. The back benches erupted. And the poor Speaker of the House (Martin at the time) could barely call order.
I can't wait until they come back from recess.
What Wilson did is so--to borrow a phrase--un-American. I really don't remember a member of Congress doing what he did and I have watched these proceedings since Reagan.
September 10, 2009 7:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do not recall anything like this either Forty-niner.
Actually the CSPAN reairing of the House of Commons can be entertaining; especially when Ferris Bueller and Chuck Norris are my only alternatives.
THIS IS HISTORY. It really is. And I certainly hope that there are many repubs who congratulate Joe for being an asshole.
September 10, 2009 7:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's the repuglican precedent for Wilson's outburst. If he VP can do it and not get reprimanded by Congress then what's to stop a member of Congress? Of course, this happened in 2004 when the repuglicans were the majority in both House and Senate. Their lack enforcement of the rules lead to Wednesday night's verbal show of support for Obama.
I would be willing to let the guy off with a sincere apology for his error in judgment, however, since the right-wing of the GOP is practically demanding he receive the Medal of Honor, the Congress needs to impeach the bastard, if that's possible, just to drive home the fact that such behavior will not be tolerated. Otherwise, there'll be more incidents of more brazen acts of ignorance from the halls of Congress.
September 11, 2009 2:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Beetle, this is a fine comment. I shall never forget cheney's verbal assault. And we all know why he was so angry.
How could anyone question my integrity. Oh my goodness. I remember when he filed taxes for 2005 and we discovered that in one year he made 16 million dollars. Remembering of course that his entire 'parachute' as disclosed in 2000 was supposed to be 20 million.
He did get away with this. And I think wilson's outburst was planned--it went right along with the structured booooooooing by the repubs.
September 11, 2009 8:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
I believe the correct spelling is 'teats', unless of course, you have invoked poetic license and are using a Spanish accent.
September 10, 2009 7:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
hahahahahahah. Thank you Jonnie. Now I cannot stop laughing. You are probably correct. I was probably think of 'teeting on one's blackberry'.
I think I shall refrain from editing and let your comment say it all.
I HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF WORSE.
I mean, this does prove you read the goddamn thing. hahahaha
September 10, 2009 7:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
;-]
Loved this one, Dick:
"You do not yell 'FUCK YOU' at the minister when you are present at one of her sermons."
September 10, 2009 7:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm afraid if I tried going to church again after these many years that I would break this one.
September 10, 2009 7:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
hhehehehehe. I laughed when I wrote. It is usually a good sign.
hahaa
September 10, 2009 7:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Heh, I've been to a couple sermons where the minister was spouting so much hate that it would have been nice if someone had done so. And appropriate too.
September 10, 2009 7:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Matya, I am surprised by this. It must be my best line in a month. I cannot stop laughing.
September 10, 2009 7:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Laughter, best thing ever.
September 11, 2009 11:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Even if they are. Unless you are fond of dying a slow death from a thousand er, pecks.
=D
September 10, 2009 7:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
ACK ACK ACK. Okay I get the message, I was just theorizing. Honest. hahahah
September 10, 2009 7:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, you wrote children. I misread it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
September 10, 2009 7:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
The wildfire Democratic hysteria today over one Joe Wilson, and his insignificant one-second burp of political discourse, is one of the most perplexing and astonishingly overwrought mass reactions I can recall in American politics. It's like a parody nitwit 9/11 for the Idiocracy; the final revolutionary triumph of attention deficit disorder.
Barack Obama made the most important, detailed and substantive speech of his young presidency. On a day which should have been devoted to debating, refining and extending his arguments, seizing the momentum and pressing the case for progressive health reform, Democrats all across the chattering landscape, and even in Congress, have allowed themselves to become sidetracked and obsessed with an irritant of the most minute significance.
Congressional conniptions. A string of Wilson posts on TPM Cafe where health care posts should be. (And they aren't even the most ridiculous phenomenon on the site today.) I have also checked in with Huffington Post from time to time today, and have seen Wilson's supremely unimportant face and the blaring headlines on the "affair".
J'accuse! Bad Manners! Censure!!! Expulsion!!!
It's shameful; it's a neglect of civic responsibility; it's an embarrassment to the Democratic party. I literally feel like I am living in a lunatic asylum.
It's like Barack Obama took a grenade in hand, climbed an enemy hill, and blew open a crucial temporary gap in the fortifications of the political opposition, but instead of following after him into the breech, his company of goofy followers stopped suddenly to yell and point fingers: "Hey, this guy farted!!" No wonder Democrats haven't accomplished any significant progressive legislation in decades: it turns out we're utter morons.
Wilson violated the rules of decorum. It happens. You wag your finger and move on. Sheesh.
You think Ted Kennedy, who worked his whole career for health care reform, would be happy to see so many Democrats punting away the opportunity offered by a vital speech to rant on about one little Republican twerp?
Thankfully, there are still people like Matt Yglesias out there, who for all his faults still managed to devote most of his posts today to health care.
And do we really want to start throwing our passionate intensity behind the creepily authoritarian principle that Thou Shalt Not Dis The President When He is Speaking, and elevate what is merely a helpful and constructive rule of civility and decorum into a commandment of respect for the Pharoah? Unfortunately, the reaction tends to confirm that there is a bizarre cult of personality around Obama, one that Obama does little to promote himself, but is apparently a projection of the fantasies and slavish devotion of some of his followers. Some people are acting like Wilson just pissed on the altar of Zeus!
September 10, 2009 8:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dank, what the fuck kind of mess would a dem have gotten into if he yelled fuck you to w while he lied, every fucking time he stood up and spoke to the nation, to the press or to Congress
This is a joke
This fucking sc bastard should be tarred and feather
ed he is nothing but a goddamnable nazi fascist prick and has been his entire goddamnable life
fuck him
BUT THIS WAS AN HISTORICAL SPEECH AND IT WILL BE READ TO STUDENTS FIFTY YEARS FROM NOW.
jOE WILL JUST GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS A GODDAMN RACIST MOTHER FUCKER.
FUCK WILSON.
September 10, 2009 8:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, when that guy in Iraq threw his shoe at Bush, I was OK with it.
September 10, 2009 9:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right. A million people dead is just so much the same thing as a "brown" person getting healthcare. And what color is the sky in your world?
For shame. Have you no decency? You've sunk to this shallow petty state? How utterly disappointing.
I don't think you read Dickons blog, your reply is a classic knee-jerk reaction to your own prejudices and petty jealousies.
I find your tortured glut of complaint to be somewhat pathetic. Perhaps someone should throw a shoe at you.
False equivalence and pseudo outrage are every bit as distasteful of what you accuse "the Democrats" of doing. You, however are far more disingenuous and easy to see through. Also far more dishonest.
September 10, 2009 11:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have shame about a lot of things, Bwakfat, but I'm not ashamed of what I wrote. I am going to continue to react negatively to this kind of discourse, and express my opposition to it, until the progressive forces in this country once again learn how to function as a disciplined, resilient and effective political force, and not a disorganized and twitchy mob of hypersensitive babies and whining defeatists. I'm actually optimistic that confidence and vigor are returning. But today was a setback. Too many Democrats remain mentally enslaved to Republicans, and react melodramatically to everything they do.
September 11, 2009 12:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
You know, I do see your point. This is a big distraction opposed to the healthcare issues at hand. We are in this dysfunctional relationship with the GOP and we should stand on our own separate from their identity. There's a lot to be said about the battered Dem syndrome.
Tomorrow we can still get after healthcare reform, but today we should enjoy the red meat they offered to us. This is an opportunity to flex our muscles and show the middle that the GOP is not the only party with strength and determination. It's a PR field day in that egard. I think people need to see courage in the face of town hall agitators like this Congressman. It makes an example for how they might handle this sort of situation if one arises.
September 11, 2009 2:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Right on, Dan. We don't agree about many of the tactical specifics, but I believe we share the same progressive vision for where this country could go if the democratic party would just focus on the forest rather than the trees.
September 11, 2009 9:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have thought that Obama should take the high ground all along... but that other Dem Leaders should have taken advantage of the situation and Branded the GOP as Wilson. Tie them to Wilson as tightly as possible. To get away from him, the GOP would make concessions.
Call it political arm-twisting, if you will.
I have yet to see any "Nice Guy" approach have any effect on the Repugs. They are NOT acting in Good Faith now, nor have they ever (in the last 2 decades!).
Wilson is a tool for the GOP... and you know, he could be a tool for the DEM's, too.
I know Healthcare is the Subject du Jour and we should be discussing it... There are LEGITIMATE concerns to be sure.
But there has to be some arm-twisting. There has to be some aggressive action... otherwise the GOP will stall... they will use every oportunity to kill this thing. That's a fact. If you can't see that, given the GOP's history, then I don't know what to tell you.
Maybe I'm out of line, but the advice (WRT "Bullies") I'm going to share with you was given to me by my Mother... AND my Mother-In-Law (in BRAZIL) gave it to her children as well... But it goes a little something like this:
If a bully hits you, you are obligated to hit him back.
Don't EVER throw the first punch. Ever. But if somebody hits you, you MUST hit them back or else you assume the PERPETUAL ROLE of VICTIM. When the Bully knows he can hit you and you won't fight back, then he's gonna hit you again. And again.
My nephew just received the same advice from his dad (my Brother). He said, "But I'd get my butt kicked." My brother said, "Yes. You might. It's probably going to hurt... BUT, I'll betcha the Bully doesn't hit you again... He'll think twice because he knows you'll defend yourself."
September 11, 2009 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed!
September 11, 2009 10:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Doublethat Icky.
September 11, 2009 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Your comment is awesome, Dan K.
The Internet is gender and racially blind if you so choose but it's clear to me -- absolutely clear -- that if some of these conversations took place in the real-world, many of the pompous, self-righteous people here would simply not have a leg to stand on: because they would then see that telling a person of color "you don't understand the issues of racism" is kind of stupid.
Know what I mean? ;-)
September 11, 2009 11:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Love you Bwak! I feel the same way, but you already know that.
September 11, 2009 10:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
The shoe thrower is getting what he deserved,
http://www.ksdk.com/news/national/story.aspx?storyid=184806&catid=28
I can't find the link but it is my understanding he is leaving journalism to open an orphanage.
September 11, 2009 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
BUT THIS WAS AN HISTORICAL SPEECH AND IT WILL BE READ TO STUDENTS FIFTY YEARS FROM NOW.
--------------------------------------------------
I liked the speech which is saying a lot. Since I've been ragging on Obama and his speeches from the beginning of the primary until now. But it will only be historic if it leads to a win on health care. Otherwise it will be mentioned a few times as failed and then forgotten.
September 11, 2009 1:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, the hyperbole from dick reaches fever pitch and is backed by nothing SO HE SAYS IT IN CAPITAL LETTERS!
September 11, 2009 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wilson yelled "You lie!" not "Fuck You!" so this comment makes no sense to me.
September 11, 2009 9:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
So? Surely you get the gist of what he was saying. You know what he was getting at... So I must assume your just being aggressive.
If it will help you, then replace the words "Fuck You" with the words "You Lie".
Like this:
2. You do not yell 'YOU LIE' at the minister when you are present at one of her sermons.
Does that help you?
September 11, 2009 10:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
He was talking about a very specific part of the legislation regarding illegal immigrants being covered under a new national program, despite the rather weak "controls" on the abuse that the president was pointing to.
It was not the same as "Fuck You!" and it certainly won't be perceived as such by anyone but the most ardent of the far left. Most Americans, I suspect, will be in the "Who gives a fuck?" category and want to move on to more important issues such as getting this legislation passed.
Ignoring criticism, no matter how rudely delivered, won't make the problems with the current bills go away on their own and it certainly won't gain the democratic party a solid majority of the country supporting their efforts.
September 11, 2009 10:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
I still think you know what he was getting at... I still think you're just arguing over semantics, if you will. Perhaps you wouldn't have used the same phrase... but you have to know what he 'meant'. It was an obvious attempt to make a point by REALLY making a point. I don't think he's claiming an "equivalence" (as you are)... But he's rather giving an "example" of another WRONG thing one could do. And you know it.
...
I think you may have a point with the rest of your post...
September 11, 2009 10:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dead Eye didn't reference point #2, he changed the actual disruption from "You Lie!" to "Fuck You!" which is where the hyperbole always begins.
Before you know it, all republicans are Nazis in waiting and must be crushed.
How long before the internment camps start?
September 11, 2009 10:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great point! FDR brought us interment camps after Pearl harbor and what did we get after 9/11? The Patriot Act and Gitmo! Are you really trying to put that kind of a prognostication on Obama? Seriously?
September 11, 2009 1:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/08/19/beck/41283635.JPG
And this is what we get from Glenn Beck. He's dressed as one of his heroes.
September 11, 2009 1:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am saying that no one sets out to create that kind of atmosphere but it can come to being even so given the right set of circumstances. This country is still divided, a fact you continue to ignore.
September 11, 2009 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not ignoring the divisions in this country. But I disagree that those on the Left are the ones who have to do all the reaching out and softening to appease the agitators. The Left is so far from intransigent you can't even see it from there. MOre insightfully, they do not print the newspapers in the same language, the ones at the Left versus the ones from Intransigence, because the Left and intransigence are that far apart.
The Right has not made any moves to meet the Left, unless you count cheering wildly at the mention of reform related to medical malpractice, to ensure no doctor can pay too much for a patient he killed, paralyzed, crippled, or otherwise handicapped.
Okay, I'm really going now. Take care.
September 11, 2009 2:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ding!
September 11, 2009 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MLBfwblps8
September 11, 2009 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did you realize the title of that Youtube clip is "Cuck" Berry?
(his only #1 hit,btw)
September 11, 2009 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
In shorter terms, you approve of Wilson's outburst and are rationalizing it to us on his behalf.
Just be honest, Jason, if you can.
September 11, 2009 12:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
You continue to prove a point. Thank you.
September 11, 2009 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Grouch. I lost control of this blog as usual, which is always fun anyway. But if you yell out "you are a liar" to the President of the United States during an address to a Joint Session of Congress you are indeed saying:
Fuck you Obama
Fuck the Chief Executive of the United States of America.
Fuck rules of protocol
Fuck Congress for even having rules of protocol
I do not understand what the hell the dispute is here. hahahahah
September 11, 2009 1:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
The dispute is contentious.
September 11, 2009 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ayep
September 12, 2009 10:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
If a dem had yelled out during one of W's grammatically incorrect speeches he would have been lynched, seriously, called Un-American, Un-Patriotic, and they would have added whatever else they could slap on him. In fact if it had been a democrat, he would already be officially censured, and they would be looking for way to get him to either resign or not run for office again.
That shit never happens to Republicans, they can do or say whatever they want. That is why I hate them!
September 11, 2009 10:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes he would have Mac. And I recall the word 'traitor' being used in 2002, 2003, 2004 and I also saw Rachel and KeithO quoting this Wilson as using that term against anyone who questioned the wisdom of invading Iraq.
I think of these things and I become irate as you can see in some of my comments.
It does me no good to use this kind of language.
I just become like THEM.
September 11, 2009 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly right.
Wilson's message to the Congress and to the nation watching the address was "Ignore Obama! He should not even be listened to! He should not legitimately occupy the office of President!"
It is another part of the effort by the Republicans to delegitimate Obama as President. The same effort worked to an unfortunate degree on Clinton and was a major element in keeping Gore from being given office in 2000.
September 11, 2009 12:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very well said.
September 11, 2009 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm pretty sure you could have fit a few more fucks in that comment. Please pay closer attention and try harder in the future or we'll have to penilize you by removing the "f" from your keyboard.
September 11, 2009 3:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL! It really is beginning to lose any meaning. Next we will see it CAPITALIZED and BOLDFACED.
They say if you can't speak without constant cursing there's an issue. What happens if you can't writer without constant cursing?
September 11, 2009 6:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
"They say if you can't speak without constant cursing there's an issue. What happens if you can't writer without constant cursing?"
I'll have to fucking think about that and fucking get back to you also.
September 11, 2009 6:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who is "they?"
Can they find their ass with one hand with any reliability? Why should we trust "they?"
Shit. Or trust you, for that matter?
September 11, 2009 6:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
“They”? “They” are those prissy little fuckwads that make it so when good old movies are shown on TV that a character says a horrible word like “hell” in it has to be dubbed over with “heck”. “They” are those prissy little fuckwads that make it so we all have to live our lives to protect their frail sensibilities. “They” are those twisted fuckwads that raise Barbie and Ken to believe, really believe, that oral sex is not sex. “They” raise piss brained fuckwads like Your-a-liar-Wilson and Drip Duvall and will now go on TV and defend these twisted fucks. "They" should go get me a footstool and a beer because this rant took a lot out of me.
September 11, 2009 7:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Be a raid DD, be very, very a raid!
I was negligent in my usage of uck in my latest rant and he came to my house and pulled the s right o my keyboard. This is so ucked up. I swear om my grad ather's ucking grave I will ucking never, ucking ever, do anything that ucking stupid again.
September 11, 2009 6:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anybody wanna buy an F ?
September 11, 2009 6:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
OK folks, it's time for a singing break. I'll be Country Joe McDonald, you all be the Woodstock crowd.
Ahem "gimme an F...."
September 11, 2009 6:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Out uckingstanding!
A good and very useful vietnam era comment less the "f".
September 11, 2009 6:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Barack Obama made the most important, detailed and substantive speech of his young presidency. On a day which should have been devoted to debating, refining and extending his arguments, seizing the momentum and pressing the case for progressive health reform, Democrats all across the chattering landscape, and even in Congress, have allowed themselves to become sidetracked and obsessed with an irritant of the most minute significance.
--------------------------------------------------
Thanks Dan, rec this comment. This is what I've been trying to say less eloquently here
September 10, 2009 8:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ocean, this was the most important speech made so far.
But we should not forget the fascists and their defense of a plutocracy with nothing, no logic, no reason, no facts....
Wilson REPRESENTS THE REPUBS. PERIOD
If you do not believe me listen to sean, rush, palin, bachman, weiner savage..
September 10, 2009 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hear hear, dickday. Wilson represents the Repubs. Period.
What they are after is power to use the government to advance their own desires, and they represent a culture that strongly believes in sharp social hierarchy and clear differences in social class. They consider themselves to be at the top and they want everyone else to be scrapping and toadying to them to join them.
Sean, rush, palin, bachman, weiner, savage and beck all consider themselves in the upper class and want to indoctrinate the rest of us that they belong there. If you consider only income and wealth and not human value, their logic can seem reasonable.
Then they try to manipulate the rest of us to ignore human values.
September 11, 2009 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
You post seemed very eloquent to me Ocean. I agree heartily.
September 10, 2009 9:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was trying to serve honey and you came here with vinegar. I'm glad you did in spite of the attacks on you.
People just smell blood in the water. They're trying to go in for the kill. I'm afraid this over reaction might backfire and its surely distracting from a good speech by Obama.
September 11, 2009 2:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
I hope my disagreement is not considered an attack on Dan K. Frankly he seems to me to "get it" although at times I feel the nuance is a bit off.
Naturally, his nuance needs to be corrected, explained and expanded. I am a progressive liberal with my own point of view which I am innately required to share, after all.
September 11, 2009 7:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama's speech was not a one-time thing. It was the opening salvo in the push-back to the effort to kill health care reform.
We have had the period of ten thousand flowers in which all the ideas are presented. That time is over now. Now is time to decide what the actual implementable program will look like. That is what the program to by handed to government to implement will look like. Something will be handed to government to implement. The pubic demands it. The nature of "that something" is what all this political battle is all about. There will be changes.
The Republicans are determined to stop any change and they can get those on Medicare and on apparently adequate employer-provided insurance to react from fear that someone will take away what they already depend on.
The Democrats now have to unify behind a program to deal with the Republicans. The Democratic base is strongly behind a change in the health care system. Something will pass. And if the Democrats don't pass something, the nation will go after the Democratic Party - the majority party - and replace them with the only legitimate opposition, the Republicans.
That's where we are right now.
September 11, 2009 7:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your post is as good as Dan K's comment, Ocean. I know it will be hard to do, considering that you were hardcore Hillary (yes... I do remember something along those lines ;-)), but watching the video downstream is, I believe, just as applicable here if you change a few names.
So a "rec" for your comment as well.
September 11, 2009 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
On a day which should have been devoted to debating, refining and extending his arguments, seizing the momentum and pressing the case for progressive health reform, Democrats all across the chattering landscape, and even in Congress, have allowed themselves to become sidetracked and obsessed with an irritant of the most minute significance.
Actually for me Joe Wilson is a nice distraction from doing exactly that. I am depressed by the ramifications of his speech (Rowan captured them nicely and I am in agreement with Obey and Miguel's comments). Frankly we have been talking health care all summer. I wanted the cost benefit of the public option to be front and center instead it was perceived as and played as a sop to progressives.
I have years ahead to pick on Barrack, this heartbreaking. I want to pick on Joe.
(ps. I love the altar of Zeus reference).
September 10, 2009 9:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not sure about the cult of Obama part as much as it is a cult of liberalism.
I think the bloggers complaining the most about Wilson's "unAmericanism" [sic] have branded Obama not liberal enough, almost in the same exact tones reserved for republicans.
Through the looking glass indeed.
September 11, 2009 9:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dan,
Wilson's outburst was not insignificant. It was an effort to bring Republican rules for Democratic town halls into the Congress.
Wilson's outcry is another step towards destroying the communication that has to exist between government and the people in a democracy. The Repubs are losing in democracy, so they are trying to shut it down.
Cheney's "Fuck You" was different. It was the refusal of government to listen to any criticism. Cheney was beyond being uncivil. He was stating that he, as the government, refused to listen to anyone who disagreed with him and had no need to be civil about it. That is a very authoritarian attitude.
Both Cheney and Wilson were each, in their own way, displaying the profoundly authoritarian and anti-democratic nature of the radical conservative Republican Party.
Wilson's lack of civility in the House of Representatives is only insignificant if you consider American democracy as insignificant.
September 11, 2009 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well put Richard. Good distinction.
What gets me is that there really is no difference in the tactics of the repubs in or out of power.
September 11, 2009 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
There's no difference in the tactics of the repubs in or out of power because it is the same people and they have the same goal. They want control over the rest of us and they want the power to decide who succeeds (that is, who pleases them) and who fails (those who oppose them and prevent them from exploiting those they consider their inferiors.)
They are conservatives. They use their existing power in the status quo to defend that status quo, and they do not dare to permit changes because changes might knock them out of that power position. Change is inherently unpredictable and they do not trust that they can deal with changed circumstances.
September 11, 2009 6:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I commend this comment!
September 11, 2009 11:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are exactly right and our well intentioned friends are, as Democrats often do, missing the entire strategic purpose of the GOP and being set up once again to get bushwacked despite our overwhelming numbers vs theirs and despite the fact that only a tiny minority agree with them. Failing to smack this down with great vigor and determination is going to lead to more of it and worse.
September 11, 2009 12:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's a very interesting observation. It leads me to some thoughts.
The Republicans are extremely good at operating with a strategic view in the media and popular political arenas and using these to get elected and gain power. They use public relations and marketing techniques to manipulate the masses and to take advantage of hot button issues to gain electoral advantage. Fear and anger are the strongest emotions. They are rotten in the policy arena, probably because they place getting elected and gaining power at a much higher priority than they do using government for the benefit of the people. This works in part at least because they attract the individuals who are authoritarian in nature, so that they respond better to authority.
Since business organizations operate on this authoritarian model, this probably explains the constant claims that they will bring "business methods" to government. You will notice that big corporations have organized themselves so that they do not have to respond to shareholders much, and certainly not to minority shareholders. They also fight any interference from government or other organizations.
Democrats individually make their own decisions and are generally averse to taking orders they don't agree with. This causes them to be attracted to education, so you would expect more educated people to be Democrats. Such individuals tend to be democrats with a small "d" who accept that others disagree with them, so they do not either accept or build strategic managers who supposedly have the global information that allows them to have a better strategic vision of politics and authoritarian power to implement their decisions. Since they democrats do not legitimate such strategic managers, they are a lot harder to control. Thus the "herding cats" metaphor.
I'm still trying to understand the social-system-level explanation for the differences between conservatives and liberals. This is my latest explanation.
September 11, 2009 5:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
What intrugues me is that our government hands power off to those who do the best job of manipulating the media and manipulating a minority of the voters who can flip the outcome of the election.
As long at the manipulators can make this process work they do not need to also be competent at policy development and implementation. That's governing. In fact, being competent in the skills of policy development and implementation is often a detriment to getting elected.
Getting elected is gaining power. Actually using the power effectively can be used to attack a candidate for election.
That's our current media-driven democracy.
September 11, 2009 10:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yet again, illustration of our need to be able to rec comments as well as posts.
September 11, 2009 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you.
So what are the costs of programming, database storage and operating time to keep comment recommendations? I used to check my comments and reply to those who responded to me, but that led to individual conversations that others could audit.
I wonder what the evaluation was that eliminated that system? And who made it? Was there more than just one or two individuals?
The decision is one thing. The decision process is a whole different evaluation when you are in a larger organization or in multiple organizations working together to achieve something (like working with a contractor or contractors.)
September 11, 2009 5:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
That kind of programming isn't difficult but you are correct that the data storage itself can be quite pricey! I'd charge plenty to store data like than and continually back it up, you'd have to have a fairly complex RAID system, and I am sure their IT department would have to grow, which is great for keeping us employed so I for one think it is a great idea!!!!!
September 11, 2009 6:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
As a student of web programming I am quite interested in your reply.
I'm sure you know how many programmers it takes to change a light bulb.
They can't do it. That's a hardware problem.
But we software types can ask what the hardware people are doing and why, and as a business student I also understand the accounting problems. The interaction of the disciplines is interesting, and Josh Marshall is the one who has to coordinate them all and put out a product.
I trust Josh's product. Not perfect, but excellent.
September 11, 2009 6:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wonder what the evaluation was that eliminated that system?
That comment rating was causing too much acrimony among participants, that it was intended to be a self-policing system and ended up causing more trouble than it helped. This site had that function for several years.
And who made it?
Josh Marshall, and he said so in a public comnent on one of the meta threads.
Previous to Feb. 2008 on TPMCafe he used two software systems with comment ratings built in, the type where your good total scores gave you privileges one way or another to help moderate or a bad score took away certain capabilities. And the other sites were using Movable Type. Those systems did not work with Movable Type, and had to have separate maintenance, and he wanted to move the entire site to Movable Type, which he considers the industry standard, and to have people able to blog to all the TPM sites at once, and to be using the same system as the other sites. Movable Type does not have a lot of community or interactive capabilities, and all the special stuff we use on TPMCafe like "My Dashboard" and "My Comments" had to be custom built. He said straight out at the time of the switch to it that he had decided he no longer wanted a comment recommendation system, but he would try to add some of the other community features back in as he could.
Suffice it to say I doubt anyone would find it a fruitful use of time to be asking for comment ratings here, as Marshall tried them for several years and decided he doesn't want them anymore. (BTW, I think a lot of users enjoyed them a great deal--it is a simple way for people to give feedback without having to comment, so you input from more than 1 or 2 people, and that is really really great for honing your writing skills. Replies don't really do the same thing, you get drawn into conversational mode with them, and that can be both good and bad, but with ratings from more than a few users, you see how well you are communicating to a bunch rather than getting into dialogue technique.)
September 11, 2009 6:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting information, I didn't know that. Thanks!
September 11, 2009 6:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you. That was quite informative.
Would it be reasonable to say that we lost a part of the individual level of on-line community in exchange for a reduction in on-line conflict and the effort to standardize on a more manageable system? If so, it would be a standard trade-off that has to be made by an successful organization that is growing.
Can't say I like it. Still, I have been delighted to see TPM growing in traffic and influence, and it attracts a readership that I am very comfortable with. (Living in Texas that latter part is quite important to me.)
September 11, 2009 6:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
One additional thought. As I watched Obama's talk, I had the feeling that there was a unity on the Democratic side that I have not seen before. That may have just been my imagination.
But Wilson's outcry clearly shocked Nancy Pelosi. The look on her face was amazing. I think I am seeing similar reactions among other Democrats.
We have known for a while now that the shape of the health care overhaul was going to be worked out in the Democratic Party because the Republicans have removed themselves from the discussion. Joe Wilson highlighted that fact - as publicly as he could on nationwide TV - and that seems to be sinking in. Wilson contributed more to Democratic unity than just about anything else short of Obama's speech itself.
Look at the counterpoint there. Obama's speech gave the Democrrats a clear program to rally around. Wilson displayed the wolves at the door who are out there to take the Democrats down if they can't get their act together. All in one short hour national TV.
That's why the Republican leadership landed on Wilson with both boots. That's in spite of the fact that the leaders the Republican base depend on are the talk show hosts who are crying to Obama's blood and the destruction of the Democratic Party through killing health care reform.
That should be clear now to every competent politician in the Congress and the administration.
If it doesn't result in the Democrats caucusing, working out their differences within the party and then presenting a united front to get the bill past the Republicans then the Democrats are beyond hope as a party the American people can depend on.
I expect to see the results of the solidifying of the party in the near future. I also think it was the purpose of Obama's speech, and Wilson just helped him to succeed.
September 11, 2009 1:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Richard:
LET US PRAY
September 11, 2009 1:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your point is well taken that we ought not lend too much allegiance to decorum rules. And, of course it would be preferable to stay above the fray. But that Wilson was also wrong on substance should be of at least equal concern. More to the point, his colleagues will only seek to distance themselves form his break in decorum, but capitulate with regard to substance, and they will continue to preach fear.
Wouldn't it be great to have a real debate on the role of government and how healthcare will be paid for. And without increasing taxes! Who isn't skeptical about that?
However, I don't think it is unseemly or undignified to be shocked (or at least feign shock) at this behavior. Not because it is so atrocious in and of itself, because it isn't. To me, it was simply a forgivable emotional reaction. But doesn't the visceral reaction unmask the deeper more basic problem confronting us with regards to GOP thinking and behavior; the problem (at least as I see it), that you also alluded to, of arguing from authority?
The GOPers are attached to thier ideals as if they were a part of what they needed for survival. These ideals are based at their root on god's law, and then to a lesser extent (although just as tenaciously), on other ideals and concepts such as capitalism, the institution of marraige, government as a necessary evil, etc. You can write a book (and some have) on the folly and dangers posed by this type of thought.
The dangers of this mode of thought are evident in the GOPers behavior, I think, more now than ever. Right or wrong, they have convictions born of things that don't exist. Or at least things that do not readily lend themselves to objectivity and rational analysis. They bind thenselves in these convictions of authoritative sanction and they *know* that they are right. All efforts must be made to protect these convictions based on what they know to be "right". Now I'm just babbling, but I hope you see the point.
And to recapitulate, sure, what Wilson did isn't that big a deal, especially given that we are talking about the lives of people who need healthcare. The remark should be quickly condemned and quickly disposed of as insolent ineffectual words. But, they (the words "you lie" are effectual among a significant portion of the country. Why not use this incident to shed light on the vacancy and toxicity of the approach to the issue of healthcare or any idea that Dems have? They are intent on opposing Obama, Dems, and free thinkers because we threaten them. They are scared. They haven't the capacity to engage in a reasoned legitimate debate over healthcare because they already ascribe to the unassailable view that government is evil. Any attempt to "help" people via the government must therefore be opposed at all costs. Is it a great leap to presume that violence is around the corner?
I think most of us would agree that a comment by this Wilson dude is underserving of attention and that we have a moral sense of duty to not lend it additional credence. That we contribute unwarranted prominence (even martyrdom) is regrettable. But, I beleive we have a competing obligation to lay bare the real motivation of recent GOP behavior: avarice, conceit, ignorance, racism, and most of all, fear, which are cloaked as honest concern.
September 11, 2009 1:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right or wrong, they have convictions born of things that don't exist. Or at least things that do not readily lend themselves to objectivity and rational analysis
I know. Am I being sucked into this side show? Or must we meet the lies, lack of decorum, lack of documentation....lack of any reason every time it rears its ugly head?
w did not have anything to do with the Twin Towers coming down or the attack on the Pentagon. To speculate on that is ridiculous and yet there was negligence on the administration's part as they prepared for war in Iraq--at the very moment w took his first oath of office.
We have left wing nuts. Yes. But they get almost NO AIR TIME whatsoever. Ayres. What a joke. Thirty years ago he walked away from a terrorism charge. The Weathermen were a joke...an off shoot of the SDS.
The Weatherman do not have ten to twenty million listeners.
The right wing nuts do!!!
September 11, 2009 2:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Weatherman do not have ten to twenty million listeners. The right wing nuts do!!!
And being so many, invariably, and lamentably, some of these listeners/followers are our friends and family. It's hard to understand and harder to accept.
September 11, 2009 4:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
The best way to get the Republicans to shut up and move to more civil tactics is to win: win the health care debate, win the upcoming bank execs salaries debate, win the energy debate, win in November 2010.
Failure breeds repudiation. Eventually the money guys in the Republican Party are going to take charge and send the yahoos back to Yahooville.
Michael Savage was dropped today by his flagship station. The tide is turning.
September 11, 2009 7:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
you bring me happy news.
I hope our friend Bill Bowman weighs in on this at his post.
September 11, 2009 7:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
First having a new puppy and having had a father that kicked small children... um.... keep your feet on the floor!
I think the republicans that behaved badly should all get detention and be required to write and recite the president's speech and the Rules of Decorum until they can recite them by memory.
Wilson should be reprimanded and chastised until he really apologizes. And continuing to donate money to his opponent to make sure he has the best opportunity to remove Wilson from his seat.
September 10, 2009 9:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very Good Sync. You got me goin now.
And about the puppy thingy, it was postulation, pure postulation. ha
September 10, 2009 9:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good to see you backing down on the puppy thing. This is a pic of my kaida when she was a puppy and I was highly offended. I agree with the rest though. If only you had been around to warn me before I went to the prom. /sigh, water under the bridge
September 11, 2009 2:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
hhahhaah. I hope you are kidding. hahha
September 11, 2009 8:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
No I'm not kidding that really is a picture of my dog. Are you insulting my dog now?
September 11, 2009 9:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Your puppy is adorable.
I agree. No kicking. Ever.
September 11, 2009 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
OH no I love your puppy. I was speaking of your reference to the prom.
Honest.
I love puppies.
September 11, 2009 11:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Does the TSA check Blackberries when attending appearances by the President?
Did the Senator that walked out early, did he come in with a briefcase and then leave it behind?
Maybe the Blackberry was the trigger?
September 10, 2009 9:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
HAHAHAHA. It was a commie plot I tell ya Resistance.
now you do have me laughing
September 10, 2009 9:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wilson will go down in history as did John Wilkes Booth.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/10/why_we_need_to_take_the_anti-obama_hate_seriously/#comment-3596195
September 10, 2009 9:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh you do have laughing again. I must get rid of this venom. Fox and the right wing are just enraging me today.....
O LORD GIVE ME STRENGTH.
O TAO GIVE ME PEACE.
September 10, 2009 9:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I came across something today that can give YOU and I hope
(Proverbs 29:7) The righteous one is knowing the legal claim of the lowly ones. He that is wicked does not consider such knowledge.
Keep on perfecting your good works DD
September 10, 2009 9:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wilson will be lucky to merit a parenthesis in a footnote to a footnote in the annals of history. His fifteen minutes have been stretched out to a whole day, thanks to the hapless Democrats, but his little flash in the pan should be over soon.
September 10, 2009 10:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
That would be anal of history, probably.
September 11, 2009 12:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
you got that right. hahahah
THE ANALS OF HISTORY.
hahahahah
September 11, 2009 1:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Democrats have spent the day giving this nobody Wilson free publicity and airtime, and also sidetracked the substantive part of the health care debate into foolishness about illegal immigrants and more grist for the Lou Dobbs mill.
Nice move, guys.
Maybe Democrats will learn something some day about controlling the debate and the message, instead of being owned by their opponents.
Perhaps tomorrow when some random wingnut yells, "Nazi!", "Muslim!" or "birth certificate!" as the president walks by, we can spend another day talking about Nazis, Muslims and birth certificates, instead of health care.
September 10, 2009 9:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or we could read your positive takes on President Obama's speech.
September 11, 2009 9:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Do not kick small children or puppies unless they are somehow rude to you.
You call that poor creature from the addled state of SC, with more forehead than brains to call his own, 'a goddamnable nazi weenie'. I say HA! .
Have you no shame, no recollection of our having conversed before on your treatment of dogs???? I refer to the infamous episode where you confessed that you BURIED THE DOG!!!! I stand by what I said then:
Please revise your odious submission or I shall have to take drastic measures in a most un-decorous manner.
Buttsekks!!!! TruckNutz!!!
:-)
September 10, 2009 10:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yez
seconded.
September 10, 2009 10:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
And for the sake of the little people too!
September 10, 2009 11:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
heheheheheheheheh. GODDAMN IT THE DOG DIED, MY BEST FRIEND, AND I BURIED HER.
hahahahah
I did not kick the dog
I did not kick the children
I did not kick the bucket
Said SAm I Am Not
hahahahahah
September 10, 2009 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I shall confer with my sister goddesses, the CHICKEN, the MANATEE and the DOLPHIN about accepting your so-called explanation.
In the meantime, Mr. DogDay, I would not get on any elevators if I were you. Not everyone knows the rooolz of decorum, and may commit a #3 on YOU!
Rule #16. Never piss off the goddesses.
:-)
September 11, 2009 12:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
hhahahaha
This is too much tonite. I do not know how to respond
I better stay away from lists for a couple of weeks.hhahaha
September 11, 2009 12:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Republican Party has become almost entirely now the party of southern reaction and racism. They are spiraling out of control and believe they can recapture momentum and power through outrageous intimidation and bullying which is their normal M.O. in Congress but they've never taken it to the brown shirt stage until now. If we, and by that I mean grassroots and elected Democrats don't stand up and forcefully denounce these assholes it is only going to get worse and it is going to end up tragically. For those who want to be superior and just smirk instead of literally smacking them down now please understand who you are dealing with. The only thing these people understand is force. They are building up for a little putsch. Their schock troops on the Supreme Court are going to allow corporate money to wash over the political system in hopes of resusitating their increasingly unpopular ideas and positions. Things are reaching a crisis point. It is much like the point where France and the allies had the opportunity to stand up to the German fascists and refuse to leave the Rhineland. Instead, the French and the allies backed down which emboldened the fascists who,a that time were too weak to wage war. Hitler later declared that had they stood up to him when he marched his troops into the Rhineland he would have yielded. Now I'm not saying they are Nazis, but I am saying they are more and more a nascent fascist movement in the US and they must be dealt with forcefully and not ignored.
I saw a sign once that said:
"The 5 most dangerous words in the English language are: Maybe it will go away."
Well they are not going to go away without having their asses handed to them and better to do it now than wait until they have metastasized even further and grown stronger.
September 10, 2009 11:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bravo!!
September 10, 2009 11:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
"The 5 most dangerous words in the English language are: Maybe it will go away."
Very good point.
September 11, 2009 12:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Oleeb. Well said.
September 11, 2009 2:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. Just ... Wow. That such a paranoid screed would get "mega dittoes" just proves Dan's point overhead that a good chunk of the democratic faithful have jumped the shark.
This sort of commentary is not only an overreaction of epic proportions, but it isn't even close to being accurate. Nazis and racists as a way of describing "almost entirely" all of the republican party.
Maybe my neighbor was right. Mercury being in retrograde would have a extremely negative impact on our communications through the month of September.
September 11, 2009 9:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
It might be uranus that is in retrograde.
September 11, 2009 9:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Was that meant to be funny or inflammatory? Sorry to report it failed on both counts.
September 11, 2009 9:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Mercury aside, you have to admit that the GOP is letting the inmates run the asylum. When was the last time you Boehner, Kantor, McConnell, Steele, etc. say anything productive to shut down the teabag crazies? When was the last time they led?
We just watched the leader of the Democratic Party speak directly to his Progressive friends in an effort to get the Party together on healthcare. What do we get in response? The whirlwing of Right Wing talk radio and cable news craziness, and silence from the GOP "leadership".
September 11, 2009 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
I meant when was the last time you HEARD Boehner, Kantor, etc....I didn't mean to include you on the list of GOP leaders. Though honestly, I'd be an improvement.
September 11, 2009 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
"It'd" be an improvement...
Jeez. Sorry I need some coffee.
September 11, 2009 9:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
GET IT TOGETHER DORN!
September 11, 2009 9:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
DORN 76 IN 2016!!! HA
September 11, 2009 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Coffee in Every Pot!
September 11, 2009 10:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Now that's change we can believe in. (as he takes a sip of some good ol' Nicaraguan coffee)
September 11, 2009 11:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
If it is blue mountain coffee in every pot then you will get my vote no matter what, but if it is millstone, I will oppose you vehemently. :)
September 11, 2009 6:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
The tools in Congress are beside the point. The persuadable audience is among the moderate republicans and conservative independents at the grassroots.
Treating them as if they agree with everything the most vocal of minorities in the party do, which teabaggers and members of Congress are a minority of republicans, is not doing the democratic party any favors.
I think Dan made a pretty good case why a little more dignity and aplomb would have delivered huge benefits now lost to the whirlwind of overzealous outrage.
September 11, 2009 10:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
How is the Repulican Party imploding not doing the Democratic Party a favor?
September 11, 2009 10:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
The republican party imploding doesn't mean half of the American public all of a sudden become liberals.
Letting the leadership of the republican party ho down in flames is fine. Standing around toasting marshmallows and singing camp-fire songs is only going to widen our divisions at the grassroots which Obama has only begun to mend.
The biggest problem for the democratic party right now is other democrats.
September 11, 2009 10:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are right Jason. Knowing the mindset of the GOP, where the whistle blower is the criminal, they will never join the liberals for destroying their party. They will ignore the many shortcomings that have emerged as a result of their authoritarian preferences and the inherent risks associated with that decision to abrogate their responsibility for keeping a tight rein on their representatives. You are absolutely right that they will blame the liberals. But I see it as responsibility, not blame. We hold them responsible for what happens on their watch. But the point is not that they join the Dems or start their own party. The point is that the GOP is crushed and disorganized and cannot reform into a viable force to resume their march to power.
September 11, 2009 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think you may have misread my main argument on this particular thread.
The best thing the democratic party faithful can do right now is get the fuck out of the way and proceed as if the GOP fully supports everything they are doing by designing solutions that are a bit more innovative than throwing money at the problem hoping that some will stick and make a difference.
The only thing that will ensure the neocons never rise to power again is an innovative and empathetic democratic party who can inspire the silent majority to change the GOP from the ground up. The only thing that will stand in the way of a conservative renaissance is the liberal left hooting and hollering as the clowns in Congress continue to shoot themselves in the foot.
No one likes a poor winner.
September 11, 2009 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink