A VICTIM OF HIS OWN SUCCESS
When men lack a sense of awe, there will be disaster.
Do not intrude into their homes.
Do not harass them at work.
If you do not interfere, they will not weary of you.
Therefore the sage knows himself, but makes no show.
Has self-respect but is not arrogant
He lets go of that and chooses this.
Tao Te Ching (Ch-72)
Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.
Mark Twain
Abdullah al-Kidd was a United States Citizen. He even had a birth certificate. The original certificate carried a different name because al-Kidd changed it when he converted to the Muslim Faith. He was at the airport ready to go to Saudi Arabia to study law when...well he kind of got caught up in things. He was sort of mustered by Ashcroft and his gang. Taken off the streets based upon a 'material witness' warrant, was held for 16 days in solitary confinement, transported across the country lost his job, lost his wife...lost everything. By the by, al-Kidd had been a rather fine running back at the University of Idaho football team.
And, since he was a citizen and all without any birthers after him, al-Kidd decided he had had enough and sued the whole lot of them. Besides the Government, he sued many of our fascist overlords individually for destroying his life.
You see... At the heart of the lawsuit is a strategy launched by the Justice Department and the FBI after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Ashcroft, the attorney general at the time, asserted that authorities would take "suspected terrorists off the street" and engage in "aggressive detention of lawbreakers and material witnesses" to disrupt possible al-Qaeda plots. FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III cited al-Kidd's detention in testimony to Congress about the bureau's success in protecting national security.
The matter has been held up in the courts for years but finally a three-judge appellate panel from the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals gave the green light to the suit. All three judges were appointed by repubs. There were several issues to be determined upon appeal. One of the judges wrote a partial dissent. Now the 9th Circuit might hear this appeal all over again, en banc. There will be an appeal from that panel to the U. S. Supreme Court.
Earlier this year, a district court judge in California allowed a detainee's lawsuit against former Justice Department lawyer John C. Yoo to go forward. The suit accused Woo of violating the detainee's constitutional rights by drafting memos that blessed harsh interrogation tactics. The case is being appealed.
Lee Gelernt, a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union's Immigrants' Rights Project, said the al-Kidd ruling is "an enormous decision" that could help advocates finally understand how many Muslims were rounded up using material witness warrants.
. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/04/AR2009090403567.html?hpid=topnews
Now this article is more than interesting on a number of levels.
Governmental Immunity: n. The doctrine from English Common Law that no governmental body can be sued unless it gives permission. This protection resulted in terrible injustices, since public hospitals, government drivers and other employees could be negligent with impunity (free) from judgment. The Federal Tort Claims Act and state waivers of immunity (with specific claims systems) have negated this rule, which stemmed from the days when kings set prerogatives. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/governmental+immunity
That is the first hurdle to overcome if you wish to sue the government. If a postal truck runs a red light and hits your car, you can sue the Postal Service. But how? Well you simply go to the Federal Tort Claims Act. The statute give you PERMISSION to sue for damages.
Remember, you can supposedly sue the government because the government gave you permission to sue them. But there is something in the Constitution that gives you rights in this area anyway; our Forefathers already gave us permissions that could not be summarily taken away from us by legislative fiat:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Fourth Amendment
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Fifth Amendment
Taken together with the 14th Amendment, it would seem to me that an individual has certain rights and should be able to seek 'just compensation' when his life, liberty or property has been taken away from him or her anyway. But always go to the Federal Tort Claims Act first when attempting to redress one's personal grievances against the government.
RUMSFELD: That's what I was just going to say. This President's pretty much a victim of success. We haven't had an attack in five years. The perception of the threat is so low in this society that it's not surprising that the behavior pattern reflects a low threat assessment. The same thing's in Europe, there's a low threat perception. The correction for that, I suppose, is an attack. And when that happens, then everyone gets energized for another [inaudible] and it's a shame we don't have the maturity to recognize the seriousness of the threats...the lethality, the carnage, that can be imposed on our society is so real and so present and so serious that you'd think we'd be able to understand it, but as a society, the longer you get away from 9/11, the less...the less...I won't say there's any wistfulness on the part of Rumsfeld there, it just looks like a candid assessment, but didn't it occur to him there may be a relation between the lack of an attack and the actual level of the threat? Also, President Bush will be called a lot of things in the coming years, but "a victim of success" surely ain't one of them. h
Castaneda v. United States, 546 F.3d 682 (9th Cir. 2008)
http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/cases/immunity/Castaneda.htm
Immunity is what the members of the oligarchy all want. They wish to be free of individual responsibility in both the criminal courts and the civil courts. That is the Holy Grail of the government gravy train. I mean how are you going to turn your 150g/yr position in government into an eight million dollar windfall without immunity?
Ashcroft, w, cheney, faith, Bolton, Yoo,....they all worked real hard to take away all your fourth and fifth amendment rights. Then they had the front man, w, esplain that his administration did not perform warrantless searches or arrests on Americans on American soil. He lied. Then when the NYT found out, w attempted to stop them from publishing the truth and when the truth was published, he went on national TV to call the reporters traitors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy
And in the Al-Kidd case, by abusing its ability to procure warrants under false pretenses, there are at least some judges out there who believe that Al-Kidd should have his day in court. Al-Kidd and his attorneys argued that Ashcroft knew or should have known that the material witness statute was being used in a sweeping and abusive manner.
Just as a side note, this is THE CORPORATE MODEL followed by all members of the oligarchy that controls this country economically and otherwise. How can we escape individual responsibility? Hell, how can we best benefit from our own incompetence or even our felonious conduct?
GOVERNMENTAL SECRECY: The second point from the HuffPo article that strikes me is the issue of secrecy. Besides the fine job performed by the ACLU http://www.aclu.org/accountability/released.html and others to get information under the Freedom of Information Act, these civil suits are getting us information. I mean, I would like to know:
1. How many people have we detained around the world?
2. How many people have we detained in our own country?
3. How many citizens have we detained in our own country?
4. Where are all these people now?
5. What obscenities have been perpetrated upon these citizens?
6. What losses did these people sustain?
7. What pain and suffering did these people endure?
What really gripes me is the time factor. Rummy and Cheney will be dead before we get most of the information. Ha!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CdW-4TRcDQ
Any plaintiff's attorney would love to quote this rummy statement in a closing argument.
THE VICTIM OF SUCCESS

http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/v/victim_of_success.asp
















I remember writing about this in 2003, I believe, and it was still going on. Thousands of immigrants were violated on bogus immigration charges but, worse, hundreds if not thousands (who knows?) of American Muslims were detained and thrown into a hole and prevented from any outside contact. Many were subjected to worse treatment than a typical criminal prisoner. Of course they were held as "material witnesses" because there was absolutely no evidence of any wrongdoing against them. To rephrase a well-known axiom, their only crime was 'living while Muslim.'
September 5, 2009 6:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
MATERIAL WITNESSES. Don we know who the material witnesses are:
Bolton
Yoo
Cheney
w
Gonzo
Ashcroft
The list goes on and on. WE KNOW WHO THE MATERIAL WITNESSES ARE.
Lets just forget our screwed up morals.
LETS DETAIN THE REAL MATERIAL WITNESS RIGHT NOW!!!
Ha!!!
September 5, 2009 7:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I think we should give them due process (the process they're due). Gonzo will be appointed to represent them.
September 5, 2009 7:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
hahahahaha.
GONZO: Your Honor you have a point here. I really understand that. But I did not really, er...I do not ever recall making that motion in the first place and no.....er........I really do not remember ever speaking with the defendants before......
hahhahaha
September 5, 2009 7:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don Key. You are hilarious. Brilliant.
September 5, 2009 8:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know I always get a kick out him Sal. His avatar, we are all SIMIANS. hahahaha
September 5, 2009 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah he really does have the best avatar around. I get a chuckle everytime.
September 5, 2009 9:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
:) Thanks. I’ve said before, it’s a pretty good likeness of me (and you know they make us where monkey suits where I work, except on casual Fridays when I wear a polo, pressed dockers and giant red clown shoes).
September 5, 2009 9:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
dd,
This theme, I believe, should not be limited to only those detained.
But, we must admit, this and all other abuses would not be possible if We, The People, had done our job. The vast majority by apathy or whatever reason/excuse must share the 'burdens' and the blame.
Just sayin...........
Rec'd.
September 5, 2009 7:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
JUST SAYIN? Hahahahaha. Good point Auntie.
There were so many sins committed by w's administration...so many felonies......so much theft.....so much rape and pillaging
TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO CHRISTIAN MEN WOULD DARE TO GO
That is just the epitaph. hahahaha
September 5, 2009 7:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
DD: Please write a play-by-play play script of the trial we would all like to see. Imagine yourself as the prosecutor for the people, as you imagine yourself as Gonzo, for the defense. Enquiring mind want to see and understand how all this actually happened, and we really want to see (particularly if Cheney and Rummy will die before they could ever be tried) what might be revealed, even in hypothetical court. You are the man for this job.
September 5, 2009 7:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh Belle. Fun idea. Fun, fun, fun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IEm_Yc7Ehc
BUT I NEED AN EDITOR AND A WEEK TO WRITE IT.
you will be my editor.....coauthor
hahahaha
September 5, 2009 8:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, Dick, I'd love to be your proofreader, if not your editor but since, these days, I am regularly overlooking word omissions and mistakes just in my own comments, I'd be a sorry bet as either editor or co-writer -- much as I would enjoy the task. So better to ask NC Steve or someone else who also has a legal background.
If you like, however, I'll write the scene and wardrobe notes on the cast of characters, including the press in attendance?
September 5, 2009 8:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
ITS A DEAL.
Hope you are well!!!!
September 5, 2009 8:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
dd,
It didn't begin nor end with w's admin.
Perhaps it can be argued they were the most vile, pervasive in manner and abusive of the process, but can we proclaim that as fact? I'm not sure.
One of the most interesting and valid questions, IMHO, is 'Why did they believe they had this right to invoke the actions and processes taken?' 'How did it come to this?' Therein lies the core issue.
September 5, 2009 7:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
CHENEY. one word Auntie. He knew from Nixon where he started.
He knew that Nixon could have broken more laws and gotten away with it. So did rummy.
They conspired for this who goddamnable mess. (blesses himself with holy water)
That is how this all began. ha!!!!!!
September 5, 2009 8:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
You should listen to Aunt Sam, DD. She seems to have a bit more objective view on the situation.
Powerful men have been abusing that power since we stumbled out of our caves. In just the 20th century, both democratic presidents and republican presidents have broken fundamental laws and gotten away with it.
Not that this latest group of assholes shouldn't be held to account, but if we think that it will end there without a little more holistic of a view, we are sure to be abused in such a way over and over again.
September 6, 2009 9:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
And so you are suggesting..... what?
Even if it were true that "everyone does it!" your point here is what exactly? Get used to it?
Oh, I know you follow up this equivalency argument with the elegant "Not that this latest group of assholes shouldn't be held to account" qualifier. But what exactly would you recommend as a remedy other than your (and Obama's, apparently) previous assertions that we need to simply look forward and forget about such things because they happened in the past? (Just as an aside, how many crimes have ever been prosecuted that DIDN'T occur in the past save, perhaps, the prosecution of Saddam's use of imaginary weapons of mass destruction against the United States?)
Nixon was appropriately driven from office for crimes that were considerably less egregious than the sum of the criminal activities THAT WE KNOW ABOUT committed by the Bush/Cheney criminal enterprise.
Your tepid "Oh, everybody does it, let's just move on!" argument on our civic responsibility tells us a lot more about how these crimes were allowed to take root and multiply in the first place rather than offer an appropriate remedy to ensure they don't happen again.
Damn right they should be held to account - the whole lot of them! And the preservation of the rule of law establishes this as a much greater priority than we've seen thus far within this Administration and this Congress.
September 6, 2009 12:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sleepin, it's all ultimately Kennedy's fault. And liberals. If we'd all just become moderate republicans, then republicans wouldn't do the batshit insane stuff they're doing. Because we'd support them. Or BE them. Or something...
(I don't know, still kind of confused about how this 'non-ideological' thinking is supposed to work...)
September 6, 2009 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
If we could all become moderate repubs, we would be quieter Obey and easier to get along with. hahahaahh
September 6, 2009 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Naw Dick, going by present company, I think the rules to being a moderate republican are
1. don't ever fucking shut up
2. find ways to passive-aggressively insult your interlocutors
3. ignore the content of all replies
4. deny you ever said what you said
5. externalize blame for all the woes of your party
6. ignore all objective evidence
7. go back to (1) and repeat the series ad nauseam
September 6, 2009 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I get kinda' confused, too, but I'm taking lessons.
I think enlightenment must come in choice of wardrobe and practicing the dance steps. I'll keep you posted. ;O)
September 6, 2009 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm workin on it too...
*one step forward, two steps back, do a shimmy-shimmy and spin yourself around...*
and, well, we all know how bobby ended...
September 6, 2009 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hi Sleepin!!! I can tell you I sure agree with this:
Nixon was appropriately driven from office for crimes that were considerably less egregious than the sum of the criminal activities THAT WE KNOW ABOUT committed by the Bush/Cheney criminal enterprise.
It is no accident that cheney and rummy climbed out out of the Nixon bogs. And they both learned a lot.
Nixon had his 'list' bfd. It was nothing compared to w's.
Fact is we were under martial law for seven years plus and we still are. And Obama is discovering how difficult it is to get out of that martial law that has become so entrenched in government.
September 6, 2009 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great post, DDay.
Al Qaeda attacks the WTC supposedly as an assault against the United States and all that it stands for. And our response? Capitulate to the enemy by passing the Orwellian "Patriot Act" and otherwise surrender rights guaranteed under the 4th, 5th and 14th Amendments to our Constitution. In short, our cowardly response to this assault is to immediately surrender much of what America stands for.
Take THAT, Al Qaeda! (We sure showed them, eh?)
Rummy brags about not having had an attack in five years. Why would Al Qaeda attack again? I mean, why would they want to mess with success?
I want my Constitution back. And I think we should be prepared to go after ANY enemy of the State to protect and preserve it, whether they thrive in Afghanistan or in the privileged position of ex-government officials whose legacy of abuses lays like a cancer within the body politic that threatens to metastasize without serious intervention.
September 6, 2009 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I of course meant to say "thrive in Pakistan." A very serious mistake, and I apologize for it. We had our chance to get them in Afghanistan and keep them from spreading, but Saddam and his WMD was a greater priority on the neo-con list of "Countries We Should Invade Today." That leaves us with the tricky proposition of how to now get Al Qaeda out of Pakistan, although we do remain safe from Saddam's WMD. Rummy would tell you it's a terrific trade-off, but I have my doubts.
September 6, 2009 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Congress had a lot to do with that.
That's why we have the checks and balances.
And there was a lot of public sentiment to support those Congressional acts. But we need to be protected from ourselves by Congress. And we should have been.
That's why I love Franken's quote the other day. To paraphrase: "I represent you. But I will use my own independent judgment in deciding how to vote."
I wish all of Congress was that brave.
September 6, 2009 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
First, let me say I won't address the "proving a negative" issue you point out with the "that we know about."
Second, let me say, that I am a big fan of some of Nixon's most clever strengths -- one that we never saw in other modern presidents: global geopolitical theory.
Third, let me say, I am no fan whatsoever of the past 8 years.
Having said that: Nixon's crimes were that he used the institutions of government to threaten and harass those citizens who politically disagreed with him.
All presidents in recent history -- where we have records -- routinely break, or skirt, laws. Nixon institutionalized the practice of using the mechanisms of government against it's own common citizens. I do not believe even Iran-Contra (where the Executive overstepped it's constitutional authority over the Legislative branch) can compare with that.
Should GWB's administration turn out to be as dangerous as Nixon's, so be it. But let's keep things in proper perspective: Nixon was the president in most recent history who acted farthest outside the spirit of the US Constitution - and did so almost like a near dictator. His crimes are the most scary, because they are the most subtle and pervasive.
Are "enemy lists" still kept in the Oval Office?
We need to keep remembering history. GWB currently looks larger than Nixon because he is nearest us in the rear-view mirror. And because he brought absolutely nothing positive to the table.
September 6, 2009 2:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
We have been victims of martial law for over eight years. Loss of rights with regard to habeas corpus, loss of rights with regard to warrantless wiretaps,
loss of rights with regard to access to governmental information.......
There are tomes written about all this. And give aways to the oligarchy that owns almost everything in this country along with out and out theft from taxpayers coffers by the vice president of the United States to his own goddamn company.
To say nothing of give aways to the corps who bought and paid for w's administration.
THE SCALE of it all really dwarfs what Nixon ever did. Planting a bug at the DNC, who gives a damn.
But you know who tutored and mentored rover? Donald Segretti.
And the accomplishments of Nixon's administration were in many ways remarkable. He lied about his 'secret plan' but it was my hero LBJ who got us in the mess to begin with.
There are hundreds of people in w's administration who should be charged, tried and convicted and sent to prison. Maybe thousands.
And all their assets should be confiscated just as if they were convicted drug dealers.
September 6, 2009 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dick writes:
Stop it. Just stop it.
You overuse words with religious zeal and then hypocritically complain about Glenn Beck.
You are in a race to the bottom, Dick, with the folks who watch and absorb FNC and you are helping to take down the country with you.
Your knowledge of history is poor at best. LBJ didn't get us into Vietnam -- Kennedy did. Watergate wasn't about "planting a bug".
You need to spend some time gleaning things from books rather than Google searches. And a very good dictionary. Words and concepts have real meaning -- and the more you post your histrionics, the more you drain meaning from them. Do you understand that FNC does that for a reason? It's because it ends up limiting thought - as George Orwell pointed out over 60 years ago.
September 6, 2009 2:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Eat my shorts. go away. Shoo. I am done with you.
September 6, 2009 3:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
You need to go back to your spiritual texts -- it's not enough to quote them, you have to live them.
"Eat my shorts?" Really, Dick.
September 6, 2009 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just thought I would come back to this since the blog is dead anyway. And I had less than the usual audience.
What you do is attack the individual directly. And you should not do this.
I do it for satire and for retaliation.
I have good dictionaries....I do not know what word or probably words I misspelled.
But CT I cannot be hurt anymore. I am numb and reaching older age.
I have seen you take a part of a post, a personal revelation and you feel you can use it in argument.
I know Kennedy got us in Vietnam although thereis a good argument that Ike started the whole process, but I had friends killed there and I had friends come back really beaten up.
And the numbers, the real numbers of soldiers that were sent over there by a dictatorship were astounding. The real numbers of deaths and the real numbers of injury are astounding.
ANd the repubs maintain that if we just had sent in a few million more, the world would have been better defended from 'communism'. It was bullshit.
Nixon was elected because he claimed to have a 'secret plan' to get us out. In the end more died under Nixon.
Yeah, I have a couple dictionaries as well as a good set of encyclopedias. Most of the time I use what is provided by the net. Spelling is not always universally agreed upon you know. I love reading an article and instantly knowing that the author is English or Australian or....
Lala will go on an on about communism or some such.
You will go for the genitalia and I do not understand why.
I could argue on the abortion issue either way. I really could. I mean with the technology available including the morning after pill, I would go along with a 60 day limit.
There are many other issues I could go either way on.
At any rate, do not come to my posts anymore.
It is a waste of time. You stayed away this whole time....forget it. Who cares what I say anyway?
September 6, 2009 6:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
a) The dictionaries are because you misuse words, not misspell them. When you talk of martial law, you are no better than the teabaggers -- and you should get an appropriate response.
b) Your story of Vietnam is sad -- and you bring it out to add validation of your point of view. I don't talk about my personal life here, because to validate one's point of view by lacing it with tragedy means you don't have another way to show validation. While it may inform your personal viewpoint, it does not -- and should not -- hold any weight in making a political argument. Shit happens. We all have it. Even the teabaggers. So, everyone deserves empathy. Now what? It evens out to zero.
c) Nixon won election in 1968 because the Democrats implodes. Again. Sound familiar? If the Dems would stop blaming external circumstances and realize that the bullets they are feeling are a result of the gun they are holding to their own heads, the US would be a better place. (PS That election was a cliff hanger -- it was possible to win. Even with Wallace in the mix.)
Here comes the dictionary: please go look up "dictatorship". You've misused the word.
Uh... no. The Democrats started the escalation in earnest under Johnson under the advice of the military. Again, your "history" is out of whack with reality.
I find it amusing that now you pull out this "old, tired man" persona after you've tailed me on several boards recently - with taunting comments - and once I responded (after several times ignoring you), you complain about the battle. Cry me a river.
September 7, 2009 1:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
I believe we are in agreement, CT, about the seriousness of the crimes committed. To wit:
You point to the actions of Nixon against citizens of the U.S. as being particularly extreme. I am aghast at the refusal to grant rights (including the right of habeus corpus) to ANYONE, citizen or not. But that's just me and my liberal ideology.
But Al-Kidd is a United States citizen. I believe it is easily argued, therefore, that the crimes of Bush/Cheney & Co. are as egregious as those for which Nixon was drummed from office.
September 6, 2009 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Habeus corpus is one of those prickly things -- scholars are still arguing about Lincoln's involvement with it.
And no disagreement about how we are a nation of law -- and that the government needs to subjugate itself to those laws.
My point was that Nixon brought the Executive Branch to almost a Stalin-type state: where there was a broad sense of being a "political enemy" in the true sense of the word, simply because you disagreed with someone's political views. We have not seen that type of behavior (perhaps only yet) from the people in GWB's administration. Fortunately, Nixon still had a better sense of obligation to the Constitution than Cheney/Rove, because the brazenness of Cheney/Rove and the rest of them, mixed with Nixon's mentality would have been quite explosive indeed. Nixon wanted to respect the law, the GWB administration apparently did not.
September 6, 2009 3:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just to remind people of the types of "political enemies" Nixon had:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon%27s_Enemies_List
I don't believe the equivalent list existed for GWB's administration. And herein lies the difference for me.
September 6, 2009 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
You make an interesting distinction regrading the political nature of Nixon's crimes; that he targeted political "enemies" for his crimes. It is a valid distinction, but I think your point about Bush/Cheney's particular disregard for the law is equally valid and makes this more a quibble about the intention and not the severity of the infractions.
An interesting conjecture can be drawn from Cheney's complaint that Obama threatens the safety of this country with any insistence that the previous Administration's activities - and those of the CIA and DIA, etc. - should be open to examination. Given all the powers he assumed as the Executive for domestic wiretapping and whatnot without any Congressional or Judicial oversight, how far a stretch is it to imagine him using these tools to prevent a political opponent from prevailing in an election as a "national security" pursuit. The ability to operate in secrecy was so incredibly important to Cheney in his deranged mission to "keep us safe" from the boogey man. How far would he wander away from the law to thwart any "traitors" who might blow his cover?
When the NYT printed the expose' regarding the top-secret "black site" prisons we were operating in other countries, Bush was quick to declare such disclosure as treasonous. It was a very chilling response, in my book, and one that showed just how far afield this Administration had placed themselves from any notion of "open government" and accountability under the law.
September 6, 2009 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, it is a call to examine ALL of history before coming to a judgment about this particular moment in history, that histrionics helps no one move forward.
You continue to read whatever you want in my words, though, it seems much better suited to your style of debate than to actually respond to what I said.
September 6, 2009 6:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, yes, jason. It appears I and so many others have this nasty habit of responding to what you have written rather than what you meant.
Sweet Jeezus! What a bunch of hokum! And so you respond to my request for an explanation of what, exactly, you are suggesting as a remedy for the crimes of the Cheney Administration with another dose of platitudes that are about as substantial and as useful as a fart in a mitten.
Do you really mean "ALL of history?" Would that include the history of the dung beetle? Maybe throw in the history of mustard and its use as a condiment? And surely we can't overlook the history of the Ojibwa Sioux and their displacement from northern Wisconsin during the lumbering boom of the late 19th Century, right?
How will we know that we have completed the study of "ALL of history" so that we can then carry on with the business of governance? Isn't that practically impossible? After all, at the very moment you declare "ALL of history" has been studied, are you not committing that statement to history, which then must surely require some studying of that statement before we can move on?
And then there's "histrionics helps no one move forward." Excuse me, but "huh?" I suppose you are right. Something like an internal combustion engine is probably better suited for such a task, but just WTF does this have to do with anything that was asked of you.
Jeff: "Ok, you don't like my idea, so please tell me how you would address the problem?"
jason: "Histrionics helps no one move forward."
Jeff: "I wouldn't have thought of that. Thanks for the idea, oh sage one! We'll get right on with its application and have the problem solved in no time."
What a fraud. You can read it, and you can know what I meant by it all at the same time. But then again I'm not in he habit of passing off indefensible statements or incoherencies as legitimate contributions to a discussion. You should try such discipline yourself if you wish to be "understood."
September 7, 2009 8:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
You and like five or six others dismiss me, maybe as many as ten. Most of them boomers. Forgive me if I have to consider the source before dismissing most hateful rhetoric. You guys have been ignoring inconvenient information for more than forty years now.
More of your transparent tactics at not talking about the issue at hand and objecting to things I never said or even implied. I had nothing to do with Vietnam or Civil Rights. I wasn't even born when they started. Seriously, that shit is long over. Time to start talking about today's problems and offering solutions to meet them.
When I speak of examining all of our history of course I mean the history of the United States. I speak of understanding all of the context before deciding that what I think the best plan of action is. You pick and choose information that suits your argument and dismiss everything else. The classic debating style of an ideologue.
The classic defense is to call me the one be an ideologue in three, two, one....
September 7, 2009 9:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
And this is precisely the kind of contradiction you so freely embrace in such consistent fashion. Say anything. Now, say something else. Is it consistent? doesn't matter, it fits the present argument. Pretty slim pickings from an intellectual standpoint. Downright dishonest, and much the reason you have such difficulty being understood for what you mean, rather than what you say.
As for my grasp of history? Please excuse the slight, but I would rely upon the opinion of someone other than the clown who could say with a straight face the following:
or,
or,
Yeah, I'll trust my grasp of the history of the real world rather than your promenade through jason-world as displayed in your telling of the parallel-universe history of the pursuit of equal rights in America.
But then again, I'm sure I've got it all wrong, cuz I'm relying upon the words you've written rather than what you meant.
September 7, 2009 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yet, you never seem to actually offer a differing opinion based on facts, only your own skewed perceptions of events that are so far in the past they have taken on the patina of an epic to you.
Sorry, but this comment is just more out-of-context copying and pasting in order to avoid having a single unique thought of your own. You debate like the hardest of the right fringe and then wonder why you rarely get the results you have "fought" so long to deliver.
Waiting for the next copy-paste reply in three, two, one....
September 7, 2009 10:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, and so I am a "far left ideologue" who has no ideas or thoughts, eh?
Just another senseless contradiction from the Master of the Dodge. Keep digging, buddy. I'll let the record speak for itself.
September 7, 2009 5:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again, you quote something I didn't say.
Yes, you are an ideologue (based on your political methodology of belittle instead of debate) who happens to be on the left side of the fence, though that is not the exclusive home for the breed.
I'm not the one with a barrow full of shovels.
September 8, 2009 8:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
I say histrionics helps no one because you and your crew are hysterical, constantly, not to mention just plain rude and not terribly well-versed in history.
September 7, 2009 9:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
You must remember...we are dealing with people that come from two different backgrounds but wind up with the same type of disordered personality.
First you have those who come from a background where there were few if any consequences for their actions and so expect this to continue. The were treated special and expect to continue to be treated special.
Then you have those who came from backgrounds where no matter what they did or how they behaved, they were severely punished. The simply gave up on following any rules or trying to be a "good kid". So now they could give a wet slap about any rules or consequences.
Oddly enough both result in the same thing. Spoiled Brats
C
September 5, 2009 8:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
First you have those who come from a background where there were few if any consequences for their actions and so expect this to continue. The were treated special and expect to continue to be treated special.
If this does not describe w I do not know what does!!!!!!!
September 5, 2009 9:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
And now the Obmama administration has convened a panel do decide what to do about Indefinite Detention; their report is due out in January. Something tells me we aren't going to like it.
If the world looks to us (God knows why in some cases) to be the Beacon for the Rule of Law, what must they be seeing lately? The new President was supposed to be charting a different course, but lots of human rights groups are reporting some bad trends.
September 6, 2009 8:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Who decides these things? Right now there are people charged with street crimes who languish in 'holding cells' for months. They have a right to a speedy trial, but what is 'speedy'? The problem is that their court assigned attorney is overworked, understaffed and rarely make the demand anyway.
But there is always a JUDGE available if a motion is brought on the inmate's behalf.
This indefinite detention with adequate access to a judge is barbaric.
September 6, 2009 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Apparently that is exactly it; will we hold people WE consider threats to national security without charges, without hearing the evidence against them, no attorneys, perhaps no communication with their families. Britain has some creepy version of this going on, has since the 70's. They are considering a system called Total Information Awareness that links all their ubiquitous surveillance cameras, sattelite images, computer data bases, etc. Oh, and ID, DNA, etc. What price safety? I dunno dick. The stuff nightmares are made of.
Anyway: I have a certain spot of loathing in my heart for rummy. I tried to find a way to put up one of the Wizard of Whimsy's photoshops of him here, but it didn't work. His work is barbaric and awful, but you can just google wizard of whimsy to find them. Happy labor day, er...not so much?
September 6, 2009 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink