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I. F. STONE AND ROBERT NOVAK


After a bitter quarrel, some resentment must remain.

What can one do about it?

Therefore the sage, keeps his half of the bargain.

But does not exact his due

A man of virtue performs his part.

But a man without virtue requires others to fulfill their obligations.

The Tao of heaven is impartial

It stays with good men all the time.

 

Tao Te Ching (Ch-79)

 

Praising the evil man upon his death does a disservice to the hero when he dies.

dickday (Ch-2)


I.F. Stone was a great journalist and a great American. He died in 1989 at the age of 81.


He was a little harsh on my friend Socrates, but what the hell. The man fought for the poor, for Civil Rights and against unnecessary wars his entire life. Naturally if you took these stances in the 20th century, you were labeled a communist. J. Edgar was after Stone till the end of Hoover's tenure as head of the secret police in this country. Never found one bit of evidence demonstrating Stone was anything but a fine American and a fine Journalist.  Believe me if 'they' had found something, Stone would have been imprisoned in a flash.

As far as fighting the good fight Stone once said:


"The only kinds of fights worth fighting are those you are going to lose, because somebody has to fight them and lose and lose and lose until someday, somebody who believes as you do wins. In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing - for the sheer fun and joy of it - to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose. You mustn't feel like a martyr. You've got to enjoy it." http://thinkexist.com/quotation/the-only-kinds-of-fights-worth-fighting-are-those/347064.html

 

If God, as some now say, is dead, He no doubt died of trying to find an equitable solution to the Arab-Jewish problem."

 

"Every emancipation has in it the seeds of a new slavery, and every truth easily becomes a lie."

 

"Rich people march on Washington every day.

 

"The only thing God didn't do to Job was give him a computer.

 

This was my type of guy. I mean I know that the rich DO march on Washington every day.  And they receive a lot more recognition from our lawmakers, do they not?  And his discussion of the good fight. Pretty applicable to the health care issues right now?

 

I watched Robert Novak lie to the American People for forty years. Screw poor people. The rich are not the problem, the government is. His entire life was dedicated to misdirection, obfuscation and out and out lies.

 

He spent much time, EVEN AFTER STONE'S DEATH, perpetrating the myth that Stone was a commie spy. No kidding. As Erick Alterman puts it:


Stone died in 1989 at age 81, but the smear never has. The leaders of this campaign have been the professionally paranoid red-hunter Herbert Romerstein, the comically misnamed "Accuracy in Media," wind-up shrieking doll Ann Coulter and, most tellingly, Robert Novak. The last is, of course, both a respected member of the Washington journalistic establishment and, as everyone who has followed the Joe Wilson/Valerie Plame case is well aware, a man who will give away national security secrets to America's enemies when it suits his own ideological purposes.

Novak has been peddling the phony Stone story for more than a decade now. When I appeared on CNN's Crossfire with him fourteen years ago, he raised it in order to smear my work and my reputation (Stone was my friend and journalistic mentor during his last decade). Following the show, I wrote a letter to then-CNN president Tom Johnson asking for the record to be corrected but received no response. I've tried a few more times to force the issue with Novak, but he has run away from every appearance. And the slander continues. When John Edwards spoke of Stone's Trial of Socrates during the 2004 presidential campaign, Novak fulminated on CNN that this was an outrage, as "Stone received secret payments from the Kremlin." Again, CNN did not bother with a rebuttal, much less a correction.

 

There was meanness and toughness in Novak's work and in his personal style, and depending on your sensibilities, this cruelty either drew you to the man or repulsed you. Novak didn't have a chip on his shoulder--he was all chip, as willing to shred his friends as he was his enemies: He's the sort of guy who would have been perfect to teach anger-mismanagement classes. He famously decked a much younger heckler in 2004, he picked fights with the left by calling I.F. Stone a communist spy, and he earned the label "douche bag of liberty" from Jon Stewart for his coverage of the Swift Boaters' critique of John Kerry.   http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/29938.html

 

So go ahead and slam me for attacking the dead; but it is in the finest tradition of  Robert Novak.

 

This son of a bitch perpetrated nothing but right wing vomit and he even aided the 'Swift Boaters' in their smear campaign against Kerry. http://townhall.com/columnists/RobertNovak/2004/08/27/swift_boat_interview?page=full&comments=true

 

It is up to the government to keep the government's secrets.  So Stone was selling secrets to the commies but Novak was only outing a CIA operative because like the moon to NASA, the info was there for his column. http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/r/robert_novak.html

As David Margolick wrote in Vanity Fair four years ago, there's no danger that anybody will ever publish an anthology of Novak's work.

The Novak scowl wasn't an act. He truly didn't care what people said about him. Even in death, this last of the breed is impervious to his critics. http://www.slate.com/id/2225617/

Novak describes his friendship with Ian Smith, the former prime minister of Rhodesia. He admired Smith largely because white-ruled Rhodesia blocked Soviet-supported Marxists from getting a larger foothold in Southern Africa.  Of course, all of this came to end after Smith caved in to pressure by the British and U.S. governments and extended the vote to Rhodesia's majority of uneducated blacks. What happened, in Novak's view, was a foreign policy failure of the Carter administration.

Listen folks, the younger will forget, but anytime anyone wished to attack foreign racist pricks, they were simply advancing the cause of communism.

Yeah, but Robert Novak became a pinnacle of Civil Rights we are to believe from his own column:

"Well into the 1970s and beyond as I pondered this incident, I saw it as helping me understand that Martin Luther King was a mythic figure for blacks. His professional, political, and personal shortcomings were subsumed in his ascension as symbolic leader of African-Americans, who demanded and deserved a national holiday for him. The people who opposed it, including me, were wrong."

 

But I found an interesting take on this statement by a fascist blogger:

This, of course, ignores accumulating evidence that educrats are using Martin Luther King Day as a vehicle for anti-white brainwashing.  And in fact this about-face on King by Novak and other conservatives has less to do with principle than a desire to avoid being labeled a "racist" for standing firm in pointing out his peccadilloes, plagiarism, and pro-Communist affiliations. Even if King has become a "mythic figure" for his ethnic constituents, does this mean conservatives should silence any criticism?

Sometimes, the right wingers can help us out in our search for the truth of things. Even this Nazi knew Novak's adherance to Civil Rights was a ruse.

Almost every single obit has to include this:

Media Matters for America reported that, on August 4, 2005, Novak "stormed off CNN's set after using vulgar language during a live discussion with CNN contributor James Carville on the Strategy Session segment of the August 4 edition of CNN's Inside Politics.

Frankly I don't care about this incident at all.

The fact is that Novak spent his entire life fighting for the cause of the rich over the poor, the cause of the powerful over the powerless,  the cause of the evil perpetrators against the victims.

REST IN PIECES, Robert Novak. I aint gonna miss ya at all.


62 Comments

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Fuck Robert Novak.
I spit on his honorless grave.

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When you're done with that, I'm going to want to "water his flowers" a bit. And Reagan's too. Hell, maybe even Nixon's while I'm at it.

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I thought I might be attacked for violating the Tao on this one.

Grouch, I swear I thought I was only one of a few that despised this guy and just about everything he represented.

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I've despised and distrusted that low-life son of a bitch Novak since I first became aware of him. You have expressed what I wanted to but did not have the art to write. I tend to be reduced to incoherent name calling.

Thank you. The world is better for Novak's death.

I ran across this quotation from Karl Popper this morning, and it seems appropriate as I express my utter intolerance of the gutter-slime Bob Novak.

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society... then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."
— Karl Popper (source: Quotable Quote)

I do not extend my tolerance to Novak. Nor should any civilized human being.

As an aside, I have decided that Pat Buchanan deserves a similar seat in Hell for much the same set of reasons. The only distinction I can find between the two of them is that Buchanan seems to care what others think of him so that he covers up what he really thinks most of the time, while Novak appeared to revel in being reviled.

By the way, DD, which translation of the Tao Te Ching are you quoting from? The language is much more crisp and poetic than the copy I have.

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My soft cover coffee table edition is translated by

Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English; 1972, Vintage Books
U.S. & Canada (Random House)

Alan Watts does a little intro and includes similar remarks to yours. I bought this new. ha!!! I just 'refound' cleaning my place up a bit.

There is irony here of course. My kind of soft harrangue against Novak is at odds of course with my verse. ha!

I do like your quote, a lot. It embodies my entire feeling about this. I could not just write this without the Stone material.

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I have that one myself, as well as a small, pocket one - Penguin, I think.

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I really enjoy it and it has those black and white pictures of nature--kind of a 'twist'. It does seem to get me in a better mood.

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The copy I have is the Penguin Classics version first published 1963, translated and copyright by D. C. Lau and reprinted in 1974. Compared to the verses Dickday has been printing it seems sort of "muddy" or unclear.

Reading my Penguin version, then reading the same verse by dickday is almost like looking at a scene with badly fogged up glasses, then cleaning them and looking at the same scene again and seeing it crisp and clear with much greater detail discernible.

I was quite surprised at the difference.

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"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society... then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant." — Karl Popper

Perfect.

And this is why we must show trolls and provocateurs no mercy. They seek to abuse tolerance, our discourse and discussions, and us. Afford them none.

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I'm with you Grouch. I know the some are upset with my edge, but I'm with you! They are sick individuals who enjoy being the bully and I have no tolerance for it. I'm not saying I won't overstep, but then I will apologize and mean it, but only to some.

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Drink plenty of fluids, grouch. You have a lot of waterin' to do. ;o)

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hahahahah. Flower, I always hated that guy.

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Yikes. You almost knocked me off my chair with that font-size, there Dick.

Rest in pieces, indeed. There is something wrong with a country which lets monsters like that on TV at hours when the kids are still up. I mean, you didn't even need to hear what he was saying, he just oozed evil. Traumatizing for the young'uns.

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God Almighty I have to render unto you the Dayly Line of the Day Award for this here TPMCafe Site, given to all of you from all of me for this gem:

"There is something wrong with a country which lets monsters like that on TV at hours when the kids are still up."

Because mostly you knocked me off of my chair.

Obey sometimes a font just shows up. Something to do with how I cut and pasted the damn thing. But I love Stone's quote so much, I thought why the hell not. LETS WAKE UP. We are going to lose on some issues sometimes. But we awaken to fight another day--or some such. ha!!!!

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ooh. ze prize! deeply honored, Dick.

The Stone IS a great quote - especially the end "you've got to enjoy it". Changes one's whole way of looking at these battles, no?

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Copy it into wordpad. That eliminates the font settings. Then you can post it from wordpad and use HTML settings to set a font you like, if the place you are posting recognizes those HTML (or CSS) instructions.

Or if you don't want to play technogeek every so often, don't sweat it and take what you get. It's like buying a used book. Somebody else liked it at least once. :-}

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LisB told me to do the same thing. I will discuss this with the Wise Seashell who actually comes into my computer from Atlanta. It was her older main frame that was fixed up and then erased with new software installed.

The irony is that I loved this little squib from Stone so much, that after attempting to fix the problem, I was not that chagrined that it was unfixable. Fighting for right, knowing you are probably going to lose AGAIN...Just because you love it. ha!

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We received a subscription to I. F. Stone's Weekly as a wedding present in 1970, and I must say the man was opinionated. He was even better when he was a guest on the Dick Cavett Show and could banter with DC. Very enjoyable memories.

Novak, on the other hand, was a traitorous, malicious, morally and ethically bankrupt product of the primordial goo.

To misquote Clarence Darrow ". . . I have read many obituaries with great pleasure". Novak's was one of them.

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Stone was one hell of writer though. Takes you back so many decades. Eric you make me happy this PM knowing we all have not forgotten him.

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dd,

This is the best I've read on Novak. I actually found it to be well balanced. Utilizing Stone as 'counterpoint' only serves to illuminate Novak's failures in being as a (only self proclaimed) reporter of the news.

Now, I want to go read Stone.

Thanks. Rec'd.

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Auntie, read Stone. Independent. Thorough. Anti Vietnam. Pro civil rights.

LEST WE FORGET.

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Thank you for the clip of Carville driving Novak off the set, I was out of the country. It was pleasurable to watch.

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Anytime Jonnie. I saw this when it happened. It was funny too because, like a lot of conservatives, Novak was passive aggressive even though he would actually get into fisticuffs from time to time.

They all desired to emulate Buckley.

I did not spend time on it because, like I said, for some reason all the bigger blogs already have.

Which reminds me, I love Mediamatters. I mean I have to check in a couple times a week anyway. But I bet you this segment is on Youtube as well.

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Christ no; someone has a blog up exhorting us NOT to spit on Novak's dead memory. I backed out with no comment, though my fingers were achin' to type away! Thank you dear, for unleashing us!
What happens when we fear to speak the Truth about the dead (and i always use the T-word with anxiety) is we get fable-history: last night in our local paper another Libertarian asserted that Ronal Reagan never raised taxes. Won the Cold War with munitions and armament build-up. Who cares if Novak opposed the Iraqi War? The disgust that permanently set in his face made you see what lived inside the man. God can forgive him; I don't want any piece of it.

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God forgive him, I do not wish a piece of that!!!!

hahahahahaha

What good are all the records available to us, the articles, the speeches, the videos.....

If we choose to ignore the obvious.

Hey it was bastards like him that drew the line in the sand WEndy. I know exactly what side I'm on.

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To quote some dick, "Ha ha ha ha!"

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Good riddance.

The Plame story was shopped around to a number of reporters, it was actually more about her husband Joe and Yellow Cake. Only Novak printed the story and outed Plame by name and occupation. There was absolutely no reason for including her name and position with the CIA.

I don't know how many people were put in danger of losing their life becasue of Novak' story.

This SOB should rot in hell.

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You got it John. And all the sob cared about was THE SCOOP.

He was nothing but a pooper scooper. ha!!!

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I too, do not think that it is appropriate to make up good things to say about bad people. However, I try not to speak ill of the (recently) dead. I would go so far as to say that he will hopefully have time to reflect on his character before he returns for another chance to improve.

* I say "recently" because I believe that honesty is critical.

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Crossed my mind Rowan. Crossed my mind. But I kept running into these obits on the Web and on cable.

I think I stayed away from the obscene however.

Yelled at him for years.

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Interesting, never knew all that about Novak.

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Believe me Gary, Stone was much more interesting.

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Folks in my profession have a strange power over the dead. We get to decide who gets remembered and who gets forgotten. Pretty powerful, huh?

Anyhow, if I know anything about my profession and the people who practice it, I. F. Stone will be remembered, along with that other great journalist Harry Golden. Robert Novak? Robert Who? See? I've forgotten him already.

I should add that there's a reason why Stone will be remembered--not just for what he stood for, but for how he stood for it...the man could write up a storm. That alone will keep him in the present as time marches forward (that's also what historians do). Novak, when he wrote for a living, really couldn't write. His partner then, Roland Evans, really couldn't write either.

Some people we remember for how bad they were...Nero and his fiddling, Hitler (the international standard for evil--silver plated and kept in Paris so he can be brought out to measure those who are "just like" him--or not)...the ones whom Twain meant when he said "heaven for the climate, hell for the company"...and we remember good people, some of whom we turn into legends others into Saints.

But the mediocrely bad, that's another story. We leave them to rest, in peace or not.

So I just suggest people save their spit for some worthwhile purpose--like cleaning a spot off your shoe. Ditto for your "water"--it's fertilizer, after all, use it for growing something the world can use.

I spent a little time online to see what might be out there of Stone's or Golden's writings. There's a website packed with I.F. Stones writings, and one can read his weekly online.

http://www.ifstone.org/

Lots of references for Golden, http://www.ajr.org/Article.asp?id=4229 but I haven't found The Carolina Israelite yet. Someone should scan it in. I'm sure the Library of Congress will, when it gets around to it.

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Thank you, thank you , thank you Professor.

Yes, the historians decide. hahahahaha

Novak was no ubermench, that is for sure.

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Thanks Professor.

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thanks dickday this was very interesting, I didnt know about Novac or Stone. Stone I will look in to. Novac, I just read all I want to know, his own friend called him "the prince of darkness" and Novac liked it so much he wrote his memoirs with the same name. Novac..The end.

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Stone is the man Dondi. Just hit Professor's link when you have time. or hit it now and book mark it.

THE END for Novak anyway.

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Oh my gosh, I.F Stone and Harry Golden! I loved them both. I'll have to hunt around and see if I still have any of their clips. (I've stuffed clippings into folders for more than 30 years. It's like Christmas all over again when I grab one and go through it.)

But Novak? I heard he died and I felt nothing. Then I had to laugh because I was pretty proud of myself for feeling nothing, until it hit me that Novak wouldn't have cared that I didn't care.

Bastard.

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Hahahahahahah. Ramona. My goodness. Now make sure you pick up Amike's link to Stone.

Twenty years gone....And I would love to see those clippings by the by.

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Can we --Catholics-- give him back to the Jews?
The most unfortunate convert since Robert Hanssen.
Be interesting to see what erstwhile colleague John McLaughlin says of his adversary.

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McLaughlin, lately, sure sounds like the conservative's conservative to me Vex. I was astounded by his comments last week on his show.

Remember when most Roman Catholics, representing the latest in immigrants, were liberal?

Grew up watching Bishop Sheen. Loved the man, still catch old reruns from time to time.

Times change and Sheen would be a repub I am afraid.

Abortion, sexual mores, divorce...issues the ruling economic oligarchy use to keep some semblance of power I am afraid.

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Since you left no Stone unturned on Novak and Stone, here's an instant replay of Novak and Rove leaking secrets -- in 1992.

At the time, Rove was the founder of a direct mail company in Texas called Karl Rove & Company. Pres. Bush was in trouble in his presidential re-election bid, even in Texas. His Texas campaign manager had decided that he liked another direct mail company more than Rove's, and divided his million dollar direct mail budget so that Rove got $250,000 and the other guy got $750,000. When the head of the Republican party in Texas striped the campaign manager of his authority during a tense meeting, Rove (allegedly, ha!) leaked the story to Novak as revenge. Consequently, Rove was fired for leaking and the $250,000 went to the other company, anyway.

You know how we sometimes say that somebody is so rotten that they are dirt beneath our feet? One down, one to go, is the way I look at this.

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I eat up stories like this Seashell, which you already know. 17 years go by and all is forgotten until someone digs it up.

I spent the longest time attempting to find older stuff on novak. Not that easy. But that is the fun of it, is it not? ha

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Most of your commenters illustrate the exact point I made on my posting. http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/garry_owen/2009/08/robert-novak-being-respectful.php

There's no civility at all. I guess leftwing and rightwing blog readers are all the same shit, different color. I guess we should in advance save the outrage when people celebrate Ted Kennedy or someone else on the left's death.

Novak attacked Stone and countless others. His attacks were vulgar and cowardly. What he did was disgraceful, but not illegal.

Spitting and pissing on his grave. Is that what we'd tell his widow and children?

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Your comparison works if and only if there is true moral equivalence between the two.

And while Ted Kennedy has demonstrated an instance of truly appalling bad judgment, his career otherwise has been solid in the betterment of his fellow Americans.

Can anyone honestly say the same thing about Novak?

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Good point. But do you think you can be the true judge of moral equivalence?

I didn't use Ted Kennedy as an example because of his foibles. I used him because he's considered an icon of the left and because he's old and in bad health.

The president is a perfect example. Any sane person would recognize he's never done anything bad in his life, but if something happened to him you better believe there'd be celebrations on the rightwing blogs. From where we're sitting we'd be pretty outraged by that, rightfully so.

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I would be outraged by an attack from the right wing but I thought about this, from a moral angle.
Richardxxx helps out with my defense.

Rowan, a friend of mine, thought it a bit harsh for the newly interred.

There is irony or contradiction in the post in light of the message of the Tao I present. True enough.

You have your opinion and this post should not go unchallenged.

Stone fought for my version of Truth, Justice and the American Way.

Novak dissed Stone before and after his death, as I discuss in the body. But Novak fought against Truth, Justice and the American Way his entire life.

Half, at least, of what came out of his mouth were lies. Pure lies.

THE END

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I find the defense of the often extremely unacceptable and antisocial so often presented that what someone did "...was not illegal..." to be sad, sick and quite inadequate. It merely shows that what Novak did with his profession was, while obviously morally outrageous to almost everyone, carefully calibrated so the he did nothing for which he would have to pay a formal social legal penalty.

If anything, his careful calibration and ability to avoid the retribution of the law makes his behavior and the way he lived his social and professional life even more obnoxious and disreputable. If all we are after we die is memories others have of us then Novak has earned everything found in this thread.

Oddly, I am not even sure he would disapprove. I can visualize him in Hell looking at how many people he has angered and sharing it with Satan as a great joke. He might consider it as something that he succeeded at in his life; an achievement few others had reached. An evil achievement, but certainly not one many others could match.

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I partially agree. Whether someone did something illegal is an important measurement, but certainly not fully adequate on its own.

I'd even argue that his behavior re Plame was probably illegal, but like OJ or MJ there was no conviction (or even indictment in his case).

If you read my post, I'm not celebrating him and I'm quite critical of him.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/garry_owen/2009/08/robert-novak-being-respectful.php

My objection is not to saying he was a disgusting man, because he was. My objection is to saying you'd spit or piss on his grave. What does that say about you or us? (My favorite quote uttered by a British parliamentarian during a death penalty debate: "When we abolished the punishment for treason, we did not abolish that punishment because we sympathized with traitors, but because we took the view that this was a punishment no longer consistent with our self-respect.")

Similarly, who cares if he'd disapprove. I didn't care what he thought when he was alive, I don't care now. It's about how we conduct ourselves. And it's about how we criticize the type of hateful and divisive birther and town hall (Obama is a Nazi & Communist) rhetoric on one hand and then tolerate or even encourage it in our own camp.

I don't have sympathy for him, but I do for his family and that they'd have to see any of this in what's obviously a tough time.

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Your blog, having taken a second look, was more in keeping with the Tao. I did not, of course speak of pissing on the grave but I was not blessing him either, thats for sure.

I get your message. Well put.

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"What does that say about you or us?" Well, don't include yourself in the "Us;" you can say what you want, and you can judge what WE say, claim the moral high ground, and some of us still won't agree with you.
Is this better? "She looked down, bobbed her chin, and crossed herself. 'I'd piss on his grave."

Uh, we ain't sayin' it to his wife or children; I'd imagine they had their own issues with him, though.

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heheheheeeeehe.

Uh, we ain't sayin' it to his wife or children; I'd imagine they had their own issues with him, though.

You screwed up my smoke on that one. Because of the context here I can only give you my personal award for line of the day.

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I wasn't really disagreeing with you as much as attempting to clarify my own thoughts, feelings and statements. Nor did I in any way read what you wrote as an endorsement, defense or celebration of Novak. Your question, below, is in fact is a very good one.

My objection is to saying you'd spit or piss on his grave. What does that say about you or us?

My answer is that I am and was afraid of Novak, and so I was previously and still remain angry at him. In my anger, my current desire is to place a stake in his heart and in his public memory.

However, I had the opportunity to drop by Half Price Books, and picked up a different translation of the Tao Te Ching, this one by Stephen Mitchell. (Harper Perennial Classics edition, copyright 1988) In his Introduction, Mitchell presents this (p. ix), which I have found illuminating. The first part is written by Mitchell, the second part he quotes from the Tao Te Ching itself.

Unencumbered by any concept of sin, the Master doesn't see evil as a force to resist, but simply as an opaqueness, a state of self-absorption which is in disharmony with the universal process, so that,as with a dirty window, the light can't shine through. This freedom from moral categories allows him his great compassion for the wicked and selfish.
Thus the Master is available to all people
and doesn't reject anyone.
He is ready to use all situations
and doesn't waste anything.
This is called embodying the light.

What is a good man except a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man except a good man's job?
If you don't understand this, then you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret.

I suspect this is telling me to deal with my fear (which I do not wish to acknowledge, even to myself) and not to expect that anything I do to or about Bob Novak will have anything to do with the source of my problem. The problem I have is within me and that is where my solution lies. My acknowledgment that I am afraid of Novak is my recognition of the likely accuracy of that diagnosis.

Of course, I still want to place a stake into Novak's heart and let it go at that.

I just found this passage surprising, and thought I would share it here. I also find it difficult to reconcile with the Karl Popper quote I presented above. I'm going to give that problem a bit of time to percolate.

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Stone was born to Russian immigrant Jews in Philadelphia in 1907.

Now, it was *exceedingly* common for Jewish intellectuals in 1930s and 1940s to identify with the Soviet Union. PUHHLL-EEAAZE do not embarrass yourselves by the way trying to say that this ordinary fact is somehow not true.

Here is an article (May 2009) from a peculiar but somewhat familiar right wing intellectualist screed that has a *lot* of detail indicating that Stone was of that ilk. http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/special-preview--i-f--stone--soviet-agent-case-closed-15120 No surprise at all assuming this to be correct; so many of his contemporaries were, with some families proud of it to this day. Article says that Stone was a real rah-rah Soviet guy back then (again, **many** were); never a Party member but supposedly was fired from the New York Post for being too pro-Soviet. They have a ton of such details with names and dates. (The 1939 Sovet-Nazi Non-Aggression Pact really shook him up, though, some say.) The authors further claim that they have original Russian-lanaguage KGB historical documents saying that Stone did some work for them, into the 50's.

We have to remember that spy-recruiters have a strong incentive to exaggerate as to who they recruit: If they recruit nobody they can get fired; if they report that they recruited a journalist they merely have lunch with once in a while, that's golden. So if KGB documents say he was recruited, it doesn't mean that he really was and it could be someone covering their ass by putting that in file. There is information BTW that Stone soured on USSR in 1956 when Khruschev gave his "secret speech" denouncing Stalin's atrocities, and also some suggestion that he was lured back but couldn't stomach it any more after the Soviet tanks rolled in for "Prague Spring" in 1968, and he just had it after that.

I have no idea what happened. But I am not prepared to simply presume that every bit of the above is false just cuz we somehow like Stone. I just don't have the info.

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Oh I do not know OT. In the pre FDR era, I certainly would have been a socialist if not a communist. Workers HAD NO RIGHTS WHATSOEVER. No provisions for the poor except through private charities. 25% unemployment without even considering women who were not considered employable in most places.

I would certainly have cheered for the Russian Revolution.

But there simply was no proof that I.F. Stone sold or gave secrets of our government to the commies or anyone else. NONE

His access to SECRETS would have been the same as any gooooooooooood reporter. No more, no less than H.L. Mencken or others of that calibre.

But I know that Novak did break a law--thousands probably. But the won he did break was the State Secrecy Act and he did so knowingly without remorse.

And then he would lie further about the 'fact' that Plame's husband had no experience 'in such matters' while the original lie about nuclear materials being sought by Saddam was a goddamnable lie. Novak knew it was a lie.

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It's very interesting the distinction between "spy" and "agent"; it is fundamental but I had never thought of it before (and I feel *dumb* over this!). The "spy" is the guy who sells his country's secrets. How would Stone even have had *access* to secrets (just like you say)? An "agent," though, could be a guy who puts articles in newspapers for you and maybe gets some cash for that (or maybe even doesn't). It could be somebody who wants to help the cause, somebody who would gladly write an article along the lines of whatever, but just hadn't gotten around to it before getting a request over lunch. So the very allegation, "So and so was a Soviet agent!"can be a lot less damning than we think. (If you read again what I wrote, you'll see that I was gently suggesting that virtually the entire Jewish intelligentsia in the U.S. were at least somewhat sympathetic to USSR in 30s and 40s and a lot of 'em still crow about it, so I've got the idea already as to the thinking of the period, somehow as you say.) If true, I think all that is really alleged is that Stone ginned up articles for two or three years in late 30s, before he got his mind blown over that hideous Non-Aggression Pact. And then there is other scattered info (or libel? dunno) that he may have done more leading up to 1956 (Stalin is denounced), and they may have tried to get him to do more later (see below).

And you have to remember, too, that soon after that, USSR was our *ally*! Anyway, I think even his more lucid critics agree with you that there is *NO* record that he sold any info to anybody, even if he did write articles on request, also not proven in my understanding. I also am serious about the need for "spy recruiters" to exaggerate what they got done, and KGB were some exaggerating fools with all them 5-year plans and whatall to fulfill. "Oh, I got this guy working for us and that other guy!" Else they get canned for not meeting the quotas. If some spy-recruiter gets the assignment to re-recruit a once-sympathetic journalist, if he can even get the reporter to go to *lunch* with him, he counts that as a big-ass success ("Recruitment going very well, better than hoped") and so does his boss, because they gotta show numbers to the oafs higher up.

By the way, the idea that somebody would put an article in the press to advance the agenda of some foreign country, that's pretty tame by today's standards and some would regard it as "PR," though I don't know rules about registering as foreign agent.

The Plame thing is just a living nightmare; can't even get started on that! Remember when Bush was spewing 'bout how he'd get to bottom of it or what? Thanks for your Post, dude! You sure are prolific, and not merely sharp as a tack!

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You got that right OT. So much irony here in what you say.

I mean we have Novak pursuing the cause of right wing racist whites in Africa.

We have hundreds of thousands of Jews exterminated by the Ruskies.

A lot of irony.

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You know, in then-USSR, the German invaders arrived, and they set about immediately to exterminating Jews. And they'd line them up and mow them right down. I was in field outside Kharkov (Eastern Ukraine) earlier this summer and I was given to understand that they killed 16,000 Jews there and left a mass "grave" (it ain't no grave, though, DD, is it?), that's now covered up with grass. There's a small monument. That's one of the lesser known, mass-scale atrocities of the war period, eh?

The Nazi's invaded Kiev in September 1941. In that same month, September, they found time to massacre over 33,000 Kievan Jews at a war crimes site known as Babi Yar. Same month!

I asked myself, how do humans get the idea that killing other people because of who their parents happened to be, given all the other myriad problems that we might have, is how they should be spending their time?

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"Praising the evil man upon his death does a disservice to the hero when he dies.

dickday (Ch-2)"

So well said. Oh Prince of Darkness lie...

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Hahahahahaha. Actually I kind of liked that line.

And the Prince of Darkness did lie, a lot and now lies permanently.

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Thanks for this post, dd. I am glad to know I'm not the only one whose immediate reaction to the news was a smirk and a thought of "good riddance!" I felt a little guilty about that at first, but then gave myself some slack, for all the reasons you (and others) mentioned.

And it's also good that we have a few here to remind us to be civil, as we ought to be (and as your post was). But my mom may not have been correct when she told me that if I don't have anything nice to say, I shouldn't say anything at all.

As others pointed out, we have to be sure that someone's death doesn't automatically make their actions while alive okay. I was slightly sickened to hear all the eulogizing for Ford, and the cannonizing of Reagan, both of whom were far better men than Novak (and that's not saying much).

-- ARG

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I missed this Arg. That is why I always go back a day after the blog is through.

You hit my sentiments on this one. This is exactly how I feel. I try at times, unless it seems poetically correct, to refrain from the obscenities
I love. It is so much easier to simply quote the person I am challenging. Use their words and actions to push my agenda.

Thank you for your thoughts.

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dickday

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  • Location Virginia, MN
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retired atty crotchety old man

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