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Tocqueville





As Chappelle or Chris Rock might put it

WHERE THE WHITE WOMEN AT?

This fine 'clip' is from Drudge. And they do not call it Drudge for nothin. They have played the actual video of this mishap.  Our president slips on the step and reaches back at the same time in order to help another woman down the steps. The French President is smiling at the mishap. NOT WHERE THE WHITE WOMEN AT.  http://mediamatters.org/blog/200907100022


Oh well, where did this kind of racist crap come from anyway?

Democracy in America was one hell of a read. Probably seven times in the last five years or so, I have picked it up and read it from cover to cover. Some places there are more underlined lines than those I left alone.  It is back as my bathroom read. You have to put yourself into the year 1848 to appreciate lines like this:

 

...my hatred is concentrated against those who, after a thousand years of equality, introduced slavery into the world again. Whatever efforts the Americans of the South make to maintain slavery, they will not forever succeed. Slavery is limited to one point on the globe and attacked by Christianity as unjust and by political economy as fatal; slavery, amid the democratic liberty and enlightenment of our age is an institution that cannot last. Either slave or master will put an end to it. In either case great misfortunes are to be anticipated...(363)

 

God protect me from trying, as certain American writers do try to justify the principle of Negro slavery; I am only saying that all those who formerly accepted this terrible principle are not now equally free to get rid of it.

 

Any intermediate measures seem to me likely to terminate and that shortly, in the most horrible of civil wars and perhaps in the extermination of one or other of the two races. (360)

 

Western Europe had abolished slavery.  Twelve years or so later, the Tsar abolishes it...well sort of. And America is a result of the enlightenment in Western Europe. For Tocqueville, THE END IS NEAR. QED he is predicting civil wars not just a civil war.

 

Tocqueville warns the South that even if they were victorious in their attempt to break the union, they will end up in other wars with the 'negro race' and the North will not come to their aid. (358)

 

And even though folks like Scalia and Sessions might feel that the eyes of the rest of the world have nothing to do with us, Tocqueville is saying it is idiotic to forget your roots America. Western European Thought alone will not countenance this sin.

 

But what is to happen when emancipation occurs?

 

To give a man liberty but to leave him in ignominious misery, what was that but to prepare a leader for some future slave rebellion. Morover it had long been noticed that the presence of a free Negro vaguely disturbs the minds of those no free, infecting them with some glimmering notion of their rights. In most cases the Americans of the South have deprived the masters of the right to emancipate. (362)

 

I know I am jumping around a bit, but Tocqueville is jumping around. Because he is having as much trouble coming to grips with the enormity of the problem of race in America. Slavery is just on of the issues. In other words, abolish slavery and you will still have slavery, just in another form.  Just as it did in Tsarist Russia and in America.

 

He even sites a model for one possible outcome, and that model is Spain. Eventually the 'moors'just kind of gave up and left for their countries of origin. (358)

 

He also speaks of racial mixing.

 

There are parts of the United States where Europeans and Negro blood are so crossed that one cannot find a man who is either completely white or completely black; when that point has been reached, one can really say that the races are mixed or rather that there is a third race derived from these two but no precisely one or the other. (356)

 

This just became of interest to me because of the class structure among the African Americans over the last century or so where the 'lighter' blacks created their own special caste or class. But as far as Southern Whites, no such class was admitted... You are 25% black? Then you are Black. Are you 8% Black? Then you are Black. That's it. End of discussion.

 

And you look at Germany in the first half of the 20th century, writing all these studies on the European Jews. Once you reached some percentage of being Jewish, you were Jewish. And they got very technical about it in terms of whether or not the grandparent of Jewis Descent was male or female. And those ideas changed over time. 

 

By abolishing the principle of servitude, the Americans make slaves free.

Perhaps what follows would be hard to understand unless I quote an example, and I will choose that of New York. In 1788 the state of New York forbade the sale of slaves in its territory. That was a roundabout way of prohibiting importation. Henceforth only the birth rate increased the Negro population. Eight years later a more decisive measure was taken, and it was declared that from July 4, 1799 all children born of slave parents should be free. That closed all means of increase; though there are still some salves one may say that slavery does not exist.(350)

 

See, we have to remember that slavery was abolished in the North OVER TIME.  And people were not holding hands and singing: 'We Are The World' either.

 

Race prejudice seems stronger in those states that have abolished slavery than in those where it still exists, and nowhere is it more intolerant than in those states where slavery was never known.

 

So the Negro is free, but he cannot share the rights, pleasures, labors, griefs, or even the tomb of him whose equal he has been declared; there is nowhere where he can meet him, neither in life nor in death.


In the South, where slavery still exists, less trouble is taken to keep the Negro apart; they sometimes share the labors and the pleasures of the white men; people are prepared to mix with them to some extend; legislation is more harsh against them, but customs are more tolerant and gentle. (343)

 

Well now I may let loose my disdain for the liars and hypocrites:

 

Daily Beast:

Thirty-eight-year-old Audra Shay's campaign to become the next chairman of the Young Republicans went from obscure to infamous over the past week, after The Daily Beast revealed details of posts of her Facebook account. Specifically, a thread where one of her friends posts that ""Obama Bin Lauden [sic] is the new terrorist... Muslim is on there side [sic]... need to take this country back from all of these mad coons... and illegals," and Shay responds eight minutes later with: "You tell em Eric! lol."

"This is an outrage and I CANNOT believe this nation has him as our leader! It makes me sick!" She posted a few minutes later: "My disdain for Obama is directly proportionate for his disdain of this country."

Taken by themselves, the exchanges on Shay's page might be dismissed as an isolated ugly incident.  But there's a pattern emerging from the fringe of the GOP grassroots. Three weeks ago, former South Carolina State Election Director and Richland County GOP Chairman Rusty DePass "joked" on his Facebook page that first lady Michelle Obama was descended from a gorilla which had gone missing from a local zoo. Days later, Tennessee state legislative aide Sherri Goforth emailed out an image labeled "Historical Keepsake"--showing august portraits of all the presidents of the United States, ending with a pair of googly-eyes peering out from a black background to symbolize President Obama. When confronted, the aide to State Senator Diane Black said only that she regretted sending the image to the wrong email list and from her government address. She was "reprimanded" by her supervisors but not otherwise punished (a forced furlough at Memphis's National Civil Rights Museum would have been an inspired penalty). And of course, all this has taken place after Chip Saltzman's bid to be RNC Chairman was derailed by his decision to mail out a parody CD featuring the song "Barack the Magic Negro." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124692407982802911.html#mod=rss_Politics_And_Policy

And our own friends at Cafe have discussed the pool incident at length. http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/cjames/2009/07/why-guilty-white-liberals-feel.php#comment-3522650

But be sure to read Jonnienohands' comment in that blog. Remember everyone is on the alert for a liberal that may sound racist. As though we, and I mean me, get a racist thought from time to time...

You see a liberal understands his or her shortfalls. Understands that things must change because we are all a part of the system that perpetrates injustice.

The South would point out the deficiencies of the North with regard to their racial and racist policies. This in an attempt to cover up their own sins.

Neoboho gave me this gem called Mississippi Goddam..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAYVaHEMK0I

Nina Simone gives voice to some of her problems with the North.

Racism is not only a disease of the South. But I believe it is an inextricable disease of the Republican Party.

My last blogs on Sessions and Steve King would complete this gig. Steve Katz & Old Golden Decoy referred me to sources in my Sessions piece.

I intend to get back to Tocqueville several times this summer on other subjects. And has an interesting take on Native Americans and Alexis detested Andrew Jackson. And for good reason.

(The tome from which I quote is Democracy in America, by Alexis de Tocqueville, translated by George Lawrence, Harper & Row, 1966 NYNY)






41 Comments

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Excellent. And needed to be said - although your text is one of the most factual and illustrative I've read.

Query - Have you ever known a racist who didn't also engage in acts of gender chauvinism? My experience is they usually are part and parcel of the same package.

We need more posts and open discussion on this topic. Please.

Thanks. Rec'd.

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Oh Auntie, sexism...well it just goes hand in hand with racism. There are those who are not necessarily 'racist' but sexist.

But the old Beauregard crowd. I mean when did a conservative repub ever, ever, ever vote for a bill even discussing the rights of women!!!!!!!!

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I remember the date well. It was Feb. 31st!

Old guard Repubs are mired in all segments of bigotry. Hmmm, can't even think of one repub woman who holds the banner high for any minority.

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dickday should probably stay away from serious subjects like slavery, where his "concern" is limited to making cheap points about "racist" oppression of poor little Barack Obama, who was apparently elected President of the United States before that "racist" nation noticed that he's black.

But apart from his phony "concern," dickday's miserable ignorance about slavery is displayed with crystal clarity by his endorsement of Toqueville's ludicrous misstatement that...

Slavery is limited to one point on the globe...

This silly thing was written in 1848, a mere 40 years before slavery was abolished in Brazil, and slavery wasn't even exactly abolished in Brazil in 1888, because the Brazilian government continues to free about 1000 workers officially classified as slaves every year.

And when was the last slave sold in Mecca, dickday? Obviously a heroic anti-slavery crusader like you would have to know that without even thinking!

In 1925 slaves were still being bought and sold at Mecca in the ordinary way of trade. The slave market there consisted of the offspring of local slaves as well as those imported from the Yemen, Africa, and Asia Minor.

And it was only 133 years after Toqueville wrote that "Slavery is limited to one point on the globe" that slavery was finally abolished in its last legal stronghold...

The last nation to formally enact the abolition of slavery practice and slave trafficking was the Islamic Republic of Mauritania in 1981.

And just as in Brazil slavery wasn't even exactly abolished in Mautitania in 1981...

In answer to the Mauritanian government's assertion that slavery no longer exists in Mauritania, Mohamed recites the names of the family members he left behind in slavery. "If I tell you their names, can you count them?" he asked shyly. "I was never taught".

These quotes from Wikipedia and the BBC can only present the most minimal picture of the continuation of slavery all around the world long after 1848, or 1888, and even after 1925, and even now, because almost none of the serious historical literature of this subject is available online.


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Lighten up RR.

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Brevity is the soul of wit.

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And anyone who "gets" Polonius knows what a truly bang-on wonderful comment The Bard wrote in that.

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Wasn't it called Sludge?

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As in what happens after someone flushes a toilet.

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Drudge, sludge...ha.

Really disgusting organization

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I've always thought of it as dredge, as in dredging the bottom.

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Leave it to the media to make much ado about NOTHIN'! It pisses me off (jeez, I better up my water intake, I'm pissin' so much!)to see them actively searching for bogus ways to get to him...

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Political cartoonists have always been with us.

But this is just plain wrong, this makes it look like

WHERE THE WHITE WOMEN AT. HA!!!!!

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Good post dickday, brings up a several things I had not thought about.I guess I always looked at slavery in a simplistic right or wrong kind of way Tocqueville thought it out and discerned things correctly.One thing was that the south was going to have a civil war even if it left the union on peaceful terms because the slaves would eventually rise up and seek to break their bonds.It follows then that a course of bloodshed was set from the moment slavery was allowed to take hold in this land. Suffering sown suffering reaped.
It always seemed to me from my observation of children that racism is not a natural trait but a learned disability.Thanks

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Yup and I caught it on the seventh read really. I mean if they had formed their loose federation. I mean and they had problems, the north would have said

SCREW YOU

And reconstruction would have failed anyway and there had to be jim crow for a hundred years.

And there was Alexis, 160 years ago, seeing it and writing it down

WHERE WAS HIS PHD IN SOCIOLOGY? Ha!!!!!!!!

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Indeed. Since there was no such thing as “sociology” in his time, De Tocqueville proceeded to invent it.

It occurs to me that he might be canonized as the patron saint of bloggers. Although he was of aristocratic lineage and sat in positions of governance in the “Republican light” (if I may say) era of Nineteenth century French politics, he seemed to have had a profound appreciation of the purely bourgeois society emerging in the U.S. So perhaps it is possible to write cogently about something without being an “insider” as it were. And not just write but write with prescience and perspective. Here at the “café,” like De Tocqueville, we too sit in our own kind of silks and powders and eschew the “juste milieu” (just middle) and aim higher.

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Larry, I will naturally fall into satire on my uneducated take on this man but for an aristocrat sixty years from 'THE FALL', he is quite taken by the town meeting, by the the industry, by the sheer fortitude of these 'people'.

They seem to be making 'something' out of nothing. RR makes a good point about slavery being world wide 160 years ago--of course the reports I am getting indicate we have a female slavery industry that is world wide today. Serfdom and slavery (or a modern version there) abound TODAY.

The sins of Europe 160 years ago or even 65 years ago are so stark that we forget our own.

But there is this flavor of DEMOCRACY even today in this country; mostly on the local levels. School boards, municipalities....

"Hey, this is my town too, I live here, I have some say in all of this."

The repubs could be really delving into this 'spirit'. Instead they kind of allude to it and simply twist its significance into some ugly tool to meet their own objectives.

Reading Herodotus as he studies Egypt is reflected in this piece. What do Egyptians eat? When to they arise to perform their duties? Whom do they marry? Herodotus being the first anthropologist.

In 700 or 800 pages Alexis can be a little off as they say. But taken as a whole...he could 'see' things and, of course, provide quite a narrative as to what he was seeing as he saw it.

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I have two favorite takeaways from DinA. The first is his observation that education ends in the U.S. when it begins in Europe. He noted that in America a person is expected to select their trade at the age of about 15 and from then their studies revert to mere job training whereas for a European education is thought to begin when one leaves primary schooling and continues for a lifetime.

The other is his musing on the future for America. He wondered if a society so dependent upon individual initiative would be able to engage in cooperative efforts once the continent had been subdued. He was not optimistic.

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dickday, my post went to sleep as I was replying to you,timed out.Yours was the last comment and closed it so nicely. I just wanted to say thank you.

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Wasting away again in Tocque-a-ville
Searching for my lost hemostat roach-holder
Some people claim that there's a cannabinoid to blame
But I know it's no psychotropic chemical's fault

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Look Pseudo, recreational use. Only.

Besides I find the tome of Alexis to be a fine diuretic. ha!!!!!

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Don't You Mean, The Modern Religious System Proposed by L. Ron Hubbard: Diuranetics?

I never knew a man could tell so many lies
He had a different story for every set of eyes.
How can he remember who he's talkin' to?
'Cause I know it ain't me, and I hope it isn't you.

Well, I'm up in T.O. keepin' jive alive,
And out on the corner it's half past five.
But the subways are empty
And so are the cafes.

Except for the Farmer's Market
And I still can hear him say:
You're all just pissin' in the wind
You don't know it but you are.

And there ain't nothin' like a friend
Who can tell you you're just pissin' in the wind.

Neil Young; "Ambulance Blues"
"On The Beach"; Reprise (1974)

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Here is a little roche(foucauld) for your hemostat:

"Good advice is something a man gives when he is no longer able to set a bad example."

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DD,

I am delighted that you revere the gret Tocqueville too! Since the first time I read his great work I have used it as a guide to the American character. His insights are incredible and it is incredible how little of it is outdated even now with respect to the dynamics of our social milieu, national character, our habits and so on. I have long thought if there is one book that must be read about America it is this one.

His observations regarding race are, as you point out, amazing. I think we need to understand it in the truly long view and I do not believe the fight over race and equality is over by any means. There are substantial battles to be fought, but as you know T was firm in his belief that equality was the prime mover of our age and that it's inexorable victory over inequality is bound to come. He lived at the beginning of the age, I think at best we are in the middle of it. So, all good citizens of the republic must remain not only vigilant, but prepared to fight for the continued advance of equality into a future, we can only pray, is brighter for all than our present.

Thanks for the excellent post and congratulations on having read the great book perhaps more times than anyone I've ever heard of!

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Remember Oleeb, there were a couple years there that I had nothing to do..no internet, no computer and limited tv. hahahaaha Books are good companions that way.

Time. My god. Think, today a criminal trial can last four weeks or more when rich people are on the docket and it sometimes takes 18 months to get them in front of a jury; and yet Law & Order takes an hour to tell the story.

How is unemployment going to look 6 months from now?

Just imagine. There were just a few miles of railroad tracks really. It took time for Alexis to move around...maybe that is why I think of Herodotus. Ha.

Equality really got to him. Not signs...not speeches...but how people interacted.

Larry is talking about education in America and in Europe at the time...

Thank you for chiming in here Oleeb. It is hard, as you know, in a short space (relatively) to give even a short portion of an epic justice.

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Racism is not only a disease of the South. But I believe it is an inextricable disease of the Republican Party.
How you can say this in a blog about slavery is beyond me.

Republicans ended slavery while the democratic party sought to sustain it. A republican ended segregation in the military ten years after a democratic president signed a law that he never intended to enforce. The same democrat who dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

By continuing to paint our enormous problems as a matter of Republicans Evil and Democrats Good, you miss a ton of opportunities to actually accomplish many need changes. Your methods are in direct conflict with your stated goals and your assumptions are not born out by either facts or basic common sense.

Nothing is as black and white as you try to make it.

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Sure, Jason, and absolutely nothing has changed since 1865.

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All kinds of things have changed since 1865. Hell, all kinds of things have changed since 1965, but there is still little evidence to support the notion that all racists are republican. Or that all republicans are racist. Such caricatures do little to move the conversation forward if the ultimate goal is greater equality for all citizens regardless of race.

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President Obama in Ghana after walking the ground zero of American slavery:

“It is particularly important for Malia and Sasha growing up in such a blessed way to remember their obligation to fighting oppression and cruelty wherever it appears.”

Regarding what Jason said, I’m afraid that racists live among all the people here, but appear most dominantly at the present time in the Republican party’s overtly racist public statements and actions.

What you write DD is so important because YOU are fighting oppression and cruelty wherever it appears. The yearning toward equality is a force that needs tending and you are a master gardener. I’ll have another Tocque of that history.

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It appears in the most strident and contentious voices within the republican party. Mostly at the highest levels where they are trying desperately to maintain their grip on power. The average republican is no more racist than the average democrat is a communist.

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You betcha Strato. Oh we have come soooo far in 160 years. Going back to when I was a kid you can almost take off a third of that time. That fifty years period represents so many mile stones in this struggle.

One of the next chapters is going to be a little more disillusioning, I am afraid.

I think I will examine gated communities and what Alexis might have thought about that.

THE NEW CASTE SYSTEM. HA!!!

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Interesting rooting the discussion this way.

Racism has not gone away; however, like most things it changes the way it manifests itself over time. Sometimes, it even shows its more (historically) "common" face.

In part because so many do mot understand how inequality (including racism) work, as a society we constantly look to the past. Folks then say "We don't do that (slavery, Jim Crow, forced reservations, segregation ...) anymore so racism is dead. Unfortunately, we still have many forms of these "old" forms with us, and new manifestations as well.

I will be spitting out teeth broken from gritting them if I hear one more time how Republicans freed the slaves. The Republican party of Abraham Lincoln is not the Republican party of today. I am sure that Lincoln (and other good Republicans from then through Barry Goldwater) are shouting from their heavenly bleachers at today's "Republicans." If the true Republicans want their party back, they are going to have to reclaim it from "the base." Instead, all I see politically is catering to a very narrow, very bigoted, group.

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Yeah I should direct this to Jason.

Did I say or do I think that all repubs are racists?
No.

But Sessions, Imhofe, Cronyn, McConnel, Vitter....

The leaders of that party have done nothing, ever in their careers to advance the cause of minorities in this country. No bills introduced, no bills even voted upon by any of these people.

It is heartening to see a 399-1 vote in the House for a resolution to at least put up a marker to help us remember who built out White House.

But the disease of racism is IN the repub party and is an important part of the thoughts and aims of a core group in that party.

Fifty years ago it was not that way. BUT IT IS NOW.

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That is a different statement when you name specific people. To say that racism is endemic to the republican party as a whole is less precise and more prone to collateral damage. Why inflame differences by using such broad strokes when language affords the ability to use fine lines?

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Fine blog, DD. Until today the main thing I knew about Toqueville, was that Gingrich thought he was wonderful. I see from this that he had much more to offer than newt has.

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FDR, I get so mad at Newt. Sometimes he would say something and I actually would turn up the set to see if I heard it right.

What a great idea, I would think.

Now I ignore everything he says. He is in it for the money. The fame, the outrageous comments. He really cares about NOTHING but himself.

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Very fine, dd. And you are spot on with your Republican comments, never mind opinions that differ.

I think I will examine gated communities and what Alexis might have thought about that.

A favorite subject of mine! They are called private governments and are currently the subject of many new laws in Florida.

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Yeah, those pesky differing opinions. So much easier to just ignore that which doesn't gibe with your existing views. Doesn't sound all that liberal to me.

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JEM - as somebody pointed out, there's many a year between the 1860's and now. Declining to take those years into account doesn't help your cause.

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We aren't talking about all the years between the 1860s and today. We are talking about the last forty years at the most. We are also talking about broad generalities that doesn't help your cause.

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I bet they are. I bet Florida is doing everything it can to sanction this rich bologna. ha

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