« ASSET RELOCATION | dickday's Blog | STARDUST »

Back into the Bereshit: UNINTELLIGENT DESIGN



http://w





One of my favorite films is "Inherit the Wind" starring Spencer Tracy (As Clarence Darrow, sort of) and Frederick March (As William Jennings Bryan, sort of)

The film was based upon a book by the same title. The book, in turn, was more than loosely based upon the Scopes trial set in 1925 Tennessee. The actual trial was a real 'show'. Every major news organization was there covering every word said in the courtroom.

Tennessee had instituted a law forbidding the teaching of Evolution in their schools. The actual trial in the case entitled Tennessee v. John Scopes was a put-on. The young high school teacher had actually taught the theory in violation of the law. But he faced only a $100.00 fine and Darrow had showed up with the backing of progressive organizations and never charged Scopes a fee. So nothing was a stake for either the state or the defendant and it was all set up for the 'show'.  And there was not even a CSPAN.

The author of this fictional history used fictional names for all players. (It always kills me when some author is interviewed as the first writer of a fictional history. As far as just about any 'history' given in this day and age that quotes an anonymous source, you are reading a fictional history) It seems clear that he wished to protect his copyright, shield himself from a libel suit and wished to present a dramatic confrontation between the intelligentsia and good bible totin' Tennesseans.

Tracey becomes more and more miffed during the trial because the judge won't allow any of his experts to testify as to the new findings in fields such as biology, archeology, geology.......

The real fun involves the cross examination of Williams Jennings Bryan by Clarence Darrow.  I mean what is Bryan doing representing the state? And how often do defense counsel cross examine prosecuting attorneys.  It was Bryan's hubris in all of this and the queer part of this charade was that Bryant was a liberal, in the modern sense of the word. He ran for president almost as many times as Harold Stassen and he stood for liberal values as well as a modern perspective of the state. 

And the movie really demonstrates the power of cross examination by a genius. Oh how much fun would it be to witness a great prosecutor cross examine dickyc or rummy?  Let alone w. ha!!

Darrow actually holds up a rock. How old is this?

I am more interested in the Rock of Ages than the ages of rocks.  (Which has to be the greatest line in the movie)

The following is from the transcript of the actual trial-- http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/day7.htm

 

Q--Mr. Bryan, do you believe that the first woman was Eve?
A--Yes.
Q--Do you believe she was literally made out of Adams's rib?
A--I do.
Q--Did you ever discover where Cain got his wife?
A--No, sir; I leave the agnostics to hunt for her.
Q--You have never found out?
A--I have never tried to find
Q--You have never tried to find?
A--No.
Q--The Bible says he got one, doesn't it? Were there other people on the earth at that time?
A--I cannot say.
Q--You cannot say. Did that ever enter your consideration?
A--Never bothered me.
Q--There were no others recorded, but Cain got a wife.
A--That is what the Bible says.
Q--Where she came from you do not know.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Q--You do not think that ?
A--No. But I think it would be just as easy for the kind of God we believe in to make the earth in six days as in six years or in 6,000,000 years or in 600,000,000 years. I do not think it important whether we believe one or the other.
Q--Do you think those were literal days?
A--My impression is they were periods, but I would not attempt to argue as against anybody who wanted to believe in literal days.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 Q--Now, you refer to the cloud that was put in heaven after the flood, the rainbow. Do you believe in that?
A--Read it.
Q--All right, Mr. Bryan, I will read it for you.
Bryan--Your Honor, I think I can shorten this testimony. The only purpose Mr. Darrow has is to slur at the Bible, but I will answer his question. I will answer it all at once, and I have no objection in the world, I want the world to know that this man, who does not believe in a God, is trying to use a court in Tennesseee--
Darrow--I object to that.
Bryan--(Continuing) to slur at it, and while it will require time, I am willing to take it.
Darrow--I object to your statement. I am exempting you on your fool ideas that no intelligent Christian on earth believes.
The Court--Court is adjourned until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

Bryan cannot help himself. He is full of hubris and Darrow knows this and when hubris raises its ugly head, the cross-examiner will never lose.

BERESHIT

Chapter 4 tells the story of Cain & Abel. With no women to fight over, with no elections to contest and no World Wrestling Association, Cain goes ahead and kills Abel.

Then the Lord asked Cain, Where is your brother Abel? He Answered: Am I my brother's keeper?

Kind of nice in those days. I mean you could have a nice conversation with god and everything. And Cain of course is an idiot.

I mean god can miss a whole lot these days with almost seven billion people on the planet. What if he does get caught up in one of those wonderful episodes presented by Pat Robertson and happens to miss the murder of 50,000 people in Africa?

I mean Cain has got to figure the big guy knows what has been goin on.

The punishment wielded out by the hand of god is simple exile. And:

If you till the soil, it shall no longer give you its produce. You shall become a restless wanderer on the earth. Cain said to the Lord: My punishment is too great to bear. Since you have now banished me from the soil, and I must avoid your presence and become a restless wanderer on the earth, anone may kill me at sight. Not so! The Lord said to him. If anyone kills Cain, Cain shall be avenged sevenfold. So the Lord put a mark on Cain. Lest anyone should kill him on sight. Cain then left the Lord's presence and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. (Genesis 4, 12-16)

I like this chapter. I mean, the "Mark of Cain" was a warning to leave him alone.

As Darrow would point out, first there was Adam. Then Eve. Then Cain. Then Abel. And Cain not only goes away with his wife (where in the hell did she come from) he goes off to live WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

Poetry, prose and meditation maybe. But HISTORY? I mean come on!!!

Chapter 5 just goes on to recite 'generations' of men.

Adam and some guy named Methuselah lived just short of a thousand years. The purpose of the chapter as stated is to number the generations from Adam to Noah.

Karl Malden died yesterday. He was 97. I watched him in scores of movies and on TV. Interesting guy.

Worked with Brando and Michael Douglas.

The bald man on NBC sends cases of Smuckers to the people reaching the magical age of 100.

The Egyptians (and later the Jews as I will demonstrate later) thought that a perfect life would run 120 years.

People did not live to the ripe old age of 900 years. EVER.

There are Norse Gods that did not live that long.  But why worry about it?

Time and again, on local school boards and in national courts, evolution wins out over creationism. Despite the strength of these victories, however, evolution continues to encounter competition in the classroom. According to the first rigorous nationwide survey of how evolution is taught in U.S public schools, as many as one in eight high school biology teachers presents creationism or intelligent design as a viable scientific alternative to evolution.

The researchers, led by Penn State political scientist Eric Plutzer, questioned nearly 1,000 teachers about their personal beliefs and the amount of class time they devoted to evolution and creationism. The results? About one in six of the surveyed teachers espoused young-earth creationist views, and most of them taught their students those views. Only 23 percent strongly agreed that evolution was a central theme in their teaching. (Jocelyn Rice in Discover) http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jan/036

You cannot come to the ridiculous conclusion that the earth is 6000 years old without a literal interpretation of the Old Testament and without believing that the earth was created before the stars and the moon and the sun and without believing that people used to live for a thousand years. You just can't. There is no other reference book on the subject. And this kind of thinking threatens our educational system. This is NO JOKE.

There is a substantial population in this country that would like to see the most technologically advanced society in the world join Romania. http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/4652/46/

Texas's State Board of Education voted Friday to alter the state's science curriculum and drop a standard that critics say undermined proper teaching of evolution in the classroom for the past 20 years, the Associated Press reports.

The standard, which mandated instruction about the "strengths and weaknesses" of scientific theories, indirectly allowed instructors to teach evolutionary theory alongside intelligent design, a belief that an intelligent being created life on Earth. The new standard approved by state educators encourages students to scrutinize "all sides" of scientific theories, a compromise that still disappoints some pro-evolution scholars. The board also adopted a series of slight curricular changes that critics say unnecessarily encourage debate about key pieces of evolutionary theory, like natural selection and common ancestry.

These new standards will be in place for the next decade and will influence Texas's classroom instruction, its standardized test material, and the topics covered in the state's science textbooks. Because Texas is one of the largest textbook buyers in the nation, its approved curriculum can influence the content of textbooks that are sold to other states and school districts across the country.

The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life compiled information about the debate in several states in "Fighting Over Darwin, State by State,"  http://www.usnews.com/blogs/on-education/2009/03/30/texas-schools-face-the-evolution-debate.html

See what is going on here?  Repub textbooks. A lot of money to be had in this market.

I do not mean to say that there is no hope:

Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578 (1987) was a case heard by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1987 regarding creationism. The Court ruled that a Louisiana law requiring that creation science be taught in public schools along with evolution was unconstitutional, because the law was specifically intended to advance a particular religion. At the same time, however, it held that "teaching a variety of scientific theories about the origins of humankind to school children might be validly done with the clear secular intent of enhancing the effectiveness of science instruction."

Scalia and Renquist dissented. CAN YOU IMAGINE?

The most recent case of note occurred in the Dover area of Pennsylvania five years ago.

Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District is a landmark case in the 150-Year Creationism War. The Dover School District voted in late 2004 to require the teaching of "intelligent design" as an alternative to the scientific theory of evolution (heavily influenced by the Discovery Institute's propaganda), and they were promptly sued by a group of eleven outraged parents. http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/30551_The_Defeat_of_Intelligent_Design_in_Pennsylvania

"After a searching review of the record and applicable caselaw, we find that while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science. We find that ID fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980's; and (3) ID's negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community." (page 64)

"[T]he one textbook [Pandas] to which the Dover ID Policy directs students contains outdated concepts and flawed science, as recognized by even the defense experts in this case." (pages 86-87)

"ID's backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard. The goal of the IDM is not to encourage critical thought, but to foment a revolution which would supplant evolutionary theory with ID." (page 89)

"Accordingly, we find that the secular purposes claimed by the Board amount to a pretext for the Board's real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom, in violation of the Establishment Clause." (page 132)

In his Conclusion on pages 136-138 of 139 of this decision he writes:

The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board's ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents. [...]

I saw a great documentary on PBS about this case. What sunk the bible thumpers were their own lies really. Through testimony and documents and hired 'experts' they attempted to separate themselves from 'Creationism'. But the ACLU and other organizations attacking Intelligent design demonstrated that these experts simply took old Creationist arguments and simply cut and pasted their entire bullshit replacing the word 'Creationism'  with 'Intelligent Design'.

Why go back to Bereshit?  Because it is only through examination of this sacred book that Intelligent Design will be destroyed as a viable argument. These people are really contending that the earth is 6000 years old.  By examining the 'Book', you are looking at their only source of data. NO OTHER BOOK IN THE WORLD is a primary source for averring the ridiculous contention that the earth is 6000 years old.




59 Comments

| Leave a comment
user-pic

I wonder if there is even one believer of ID who is employed in either Livermore or LosAlamos or any other of our national laboratories? I don't know one way or the other but something tells me the answer would be no.

user-pic

All you need are Darrow's arguments. 84 years ago.

I would hope the answer is no. Unless of course they are being paid on the side from the likes of AEI or some repub organization.

This is just plain silliness. Except it aint. ha

user-pic

Actually Creationists do occasionally go to work at Lawrence but they tend to ignore things like the radiation danger warning signs and so soon they, ugh, die.

user-pic

hahaha. yep. Bible just not a good rule book, when it comes to nucular research and such.

user-pic

To be fair, the Bible is just as good of a defense against ICBM's as the best that science has to offer, SDI. So logically we could just shake our Bibles at North Korea and yell "Na Na Na Naaa Naaa."

user-pic

I would bet that there are, but they would be technicians or someone not in the natural sciences. There once was a technician from Kansas at Los Alamos that made a name for herself on the internet by posing as a scientist and "proving" that global warming was a fraud. She turned out to be one of the fundies from a very fundamental church. If they can't believe in something that they see all around them, there will be some that won't believe something that occurred in deep time.

user-pic

Yeah, you make the best point Aggie. But whenever I do hear someone, I do not care if he is a minister of the church, a minister of the government or a minister of science........

I WISH TO KNOW FROM WHENCE THEY DERIVE THEIR INCOME.

HA!!!!!

user-pic

Hold on a minute there...I knew a couple of scientists at Lawrence Livermore who believed in ID - plus, they believed that they themselves were the designers. Ha ha - seriously, one of them was an expert on Jupiter, and I met him a couple of months before those comets were going to hit the planet. Talk about religious experience - this guy was experiencing rapture about every 5 minutes as he was telling me about the significance of the event.

user-pic

You have me laughin so hard. First I misunderstood your comment. There was that magic 1.5 second delay.

I hereby render unto you the Dayly comment of the day Award for this here TPMCafe site given to all of you from all of me.

But this one line:

Hold on a minute there...I knew a couple of scientists at Lawrence Livermore who believed in ID - plus, they believed that they themselves were the designers.

HUBRIS, true hubris, can be very funny!!!

user-pic

These were smart guys, DD, I kid you not. Astrophysicists...I mean, you have to be smart to even sign up for that class.

The other one was David Dearborn, who does archaeoastronomy for a hobby. You can find him in google, but here's a really interesting statement he made re: lie detector use at LLNL:

http://www.spse.org/Polygraph_comments_Livermo.html

Scroll down the page to David Dearborn.

user-pic

This comes down to determining the level of threat assessment and what to do about it. At some point arguments pro and con tend to become subjective. Not a good place to be on this particular topic. Trying to make objective evaluations where the data is subjective is a thorny problem.

user-pic

What's more worrisome is religious wingnuts have been proselytizing the Air Force for years. The last thing we need is people who believe the onset of Armageddon will rapture them into heaven having access to nuclear bombs.

user-pic

Yeah like Watts as Secretary of the Interior under Reagan...on his knees every morning praying for the end of the world.

How could he possibly have been worried about future ground water pollution?

user-pic

Is James Watts still alive? He's another guy I wanted to live a long life to see what he;d done this country. If I remember correctly he actually alluded to his belief that the world would come to an end soon in congressional testimony so any long term damage would be moot.

user-pic

In regards to the Air Force, that is something I have noted for a while. I find the direction a bit disturbing. The Air Force Academy appears to be where this is rooted and is a real conflict. I don't know how you can have an officer corps not be totally screwed up when they are likely and improperly influenced by religious dogma. The tasks being handed over to our militray are bad enough without having a bunch of nut jobs running things or setting policy.

Another reason where this is very bad is the increasing role of the military in domestic intelligence. That is a real bad idea. Bush and Rummy got the ball rolling in that direction and now it has a head of steam up that I'm not sure can be reversed. I don't want the military having one thing to do with the domestic side and especially not domestic intelligence. This is a huge fuck up as far as I'm concerned and a major departure historically speaking and more than a little conflicted constitutionally.

user-pic

Well done, Dickon.

I went to a Catholic school. They hired secular teachers to teach Biology and wisely stayed out of it.

Pity these evangelicals don't take a page out of their playbook.

user-pic

I'm sorry, that was confusing, I mean that they also taught us religion, and creationism, they just didn't call it Biology. It's silly. If the evangelicals want to teach their children creationism, let them build schools and do so.

But don't call it Biology. Biology is Biology. Religion is religion.

user-pic

Yup Bwak. The Roman Catholics are not the problem here. All you have to do is get a Catholic Bible and the footenotes.

I actually took out a couple of Catholic treatises, and they are all consistent in keeping religion out of science. I guess five hundred years of fighting science just never paid off. ha!!!!

user-pic

Yeah, well they seem to be going backward now. Holding up the beatification of John Paul II, probably on of the more science-friendly Popes.

It's too bad, really.

user-pic

Tell that to Da Vinci and Copernicus. I suspect their view of Catholicism is a bit less charitable.

There have long been fringe ideologies that become the law of the land until they aren't. Fringe beliefs that are taken way too literally or applied to liberally until the practice stops. "Fundies" got close to that control with Bush in office, but he didn't deliver the Rapture Right throwdown they (and you apparently) long expected and now the brand is forever tarnished.

This is where I think you make your "fundamental" mistake when commenting on these matters:

There is a substantial population in this country that would like to see the most technologically advanced society in the world join Romania.
You assert that the craziest of the crazies somehow represent a "substantial population" in these matters and cite five-year-old polls with unknown methodologies to back it up. Then all that is laid at the feet of some grand "republican" conspiracy, though all you can point to is some obscure school district in Texas who introduced intelligent design in additional to evolution.

Life isn't that neat and tidy, let alone religion which is vastly more complicated for some people. I could explain Intelligent Design in a way that would reinforce our belief in the underlying truth of Darwin's theories. Many scientists have reconciled the idea of a Creator that falls outside the constraints of the Bible and the churches it spawned these last 1700 years.

I think there is a critique to be made of all sorts of long-held practices in this country, most of them fringe in nature, but if the end goal is to create a more just and understanding country, I fail to see how continued use of prejudice and stereotypes and broad-brush application of fringe beliefs as being more wide-held than they actually are is not helping the cause. Of course some of the most extreme religious beliefs appear crazy to us, but for many their ideas of religion evolve over time. Fundamentalist Christians no more represent a majority of Christians than Wahhabi Muslims are representative of Islam.

I think your intentions are great, but your aim is a bit off.

user-pic
Fundamentalist Christians no more represent a majority of Christians than Wahhabi Muslims are representative of Islam.

I agree with you, but unfortunately, in many areas of the country they wield far more influence than their numbers might suggest. Recently here in GA, there was the major fight in Cobb County over the teaching of intelligent design (and the subsequent "disclaimer" stickers)and having grown up in TX I can tell you that evolution in schools has been an issue as far back as I can remember (and I'm embarrassed to admit how far back that is).

I live in a very conservative area of a conservative state. I, too, hate painting people with a broad brush; however, for some of us, these battles are not just academic, they are very real.

user-pic

I agree but still think we need to maintain a sense of proportional response to the issue.

I suspect that most people, even in the reddest of red states, still don't pay attention to the issues. If voter turnout statistics tell us anything, I think it tells us only the hardest of the hardcore turnout for primary elections. That means super-liberal liberals and super-conservative conservatives, but not too many people in between the extremes. At least, not until the general election and by then it is too late.

What we need to do is encourage a more dispassionate discussion of these issues, co-opt the efforts of moderates and use them to increase primary turnout to elect progressive politicians. I have spoken with many evangelicals who consider themselves progressives first. Given the history of the country, that makes sense for me. Until proven otherwise by specific individuals, I will apply that definition to most Christians.

If it is human nature to stereotype people, why can't use positive memes in our political dialogues?

user-pic
What we need to do is encourage a more dispassionate discussion of these issues, co-opt the efforts of moderates and use them to increase primary turnout to elect progressive politicians.

How do you separate passion from fundamentalist religous beliefs? If someone's worldview is entirely shaped by the fact that the world is 6,000 years old and Jesus rode dinosaurs, I'm not sure that's possible from an emotional standpoint.

Anyway, while I think you're right in most cases, I think the above electoral strategy is a pipe dream where I'm at (at least for the foreseeable future). McCain won 71% of the vote in my precinct. Most local elections do not even have a democratic candidates. I have learned the hard way, both at work and in my neighborhood, that the quickest way to be ostracized is by describing yourself as a "liberal" or "progressive". In most people's eyes around here, that is one step down from being a Catholic and (barely) one step up from "satanist". Seeing that I'm a liberal Catholic, I spend most of my time feeling like an exhibit at the zoo. Trust me, most people around here have never met anyone like me (or my husband).

The point I'm trying to make is that in my area, it is not a matter of rhetoric or meeting people in the middle. The culture I'm surrounded by is not one that accomodates moderates. Given an opportunity, the school board would gladly have my daughter learning that the Grand Canyon is a result of Noah's Flood and she'd be taking a field trip to the creationist museum in Kentucky. I understand the need for a more civil discourse, but if push comes to shove, I'll be damned if I let that happen.

user-pic

We (progressives) need to be dispassionate in the face of illogical passion. Their mode of debate shouldn't dictate ours.

Fundamentalists may not change their stripes, but combating fanaticism with fanaticism seems to me a losing proposition from the get go. It isn't the fanatics who need to be changed, it is the great silent majority who are watching from the sidelines who need to be changed or at least motivated to vote for change in increasing numbers.

I reject our entire mode of political discourse in this country - no matter the subject - as being totally antithetical to many of our stated goals.

user-pic

PS: McCain didn't win 71% of the vote in your county because they are all fundamentalist Christians.

Many people who voted for him may have done so for any number of reasons, most of which I suspect are non-ideological in nature. People are simply lazy and look for the right party. It also indicates a 29% minority that can be built on.

There are complexities at work that micro-trend politicing can't address.

user-pic
PS: McCain didn't win 71% of the vote in your county because they are all fundamentalist Christians.

I agree and I didn't mean to imply that.

There are complexities at work that micro-trend politicing can't address.

Oh, absolutely. Being "conservative" in this part of the country is something very in-grained and as much a part of the culture as NASCAR and sweet tea. This is why I think the job down here will be long and difficult. That's not to say that I think it's pointless.....I was relieved and happy to see Obama's campaign as active as it was in this area. Any positive exposure at least helps to dispell the stereotype. That's all good.

user-pic

Very healthy way to approach the problem. I am sometimes afraid that our natural inclination toward easy solutions will keep us from putting in the work (and time) necessary to change the expectations of voters.

user-pic

That is what I get for last-minute revision of link contents.

Fixed linkage.

user-pic

Thanks much for the link. I've always been a huge fan of his.

user-pic

Jesus Christ Karl. (Blesses himself) where the hell you find a link like this.

Do not worry. I will not tell the therapist. If I did she would have to tell the authorities under 7 U.S. S 2235,2236.

user-pic

I just follow his blog.

user-pic

This is such a good comment and the line about Jesus---well I already swiped it and used it in another comments.

How do you argue with a wall of ignorance?

user-pic

Thanks for the compliment. :)

You can't argue with a wall of ignorance....and especially not with those who firmly believe that they are on a mission from God. This is all about reaching the next generation, after all. Isn't that what the fundie home schooling movement is all about? God forbid children should be taught to question anything or develop any critical thinking skills.

user-pic

I hope you are correct Jason. I really do because this stuff really scares me.

Polls saying that this % of people 'believe in evolution' are just a waste of time. Meaningless.

Nobody 'knows' what 'evolution' is. But we do 'know' that neither Jesus, nor Moses, nor Noah rode dinosaurs.

It is like a teacher with first graders attempting to get the arithmetic basics pounded into their little heads. And Kevin just refuses to 'get it'

Republican organizations FUND this antievolutionary crap. From whence is the money coming from. I always ask that question about any issue.

I just know that in my little cable market there are three regular channels and three 'community access channels' that will air this 6000 year crap. And I marvel at it.

And someone pays to air this crap. And someone is paying the idiot to spew out this garbage. And sometimes the audience is made up of children.

user-pic

Well, we've seen where a small handful of wealthy people can give the appearance of a much larger movement than later proves to be the case. For me, assuming these are fringe ideologies allows me to a little more freedom of movement than when I approach subjects that have a more existential threat such as climate change.

In either case, I have really been working on maintaining the same equilibrium to my commentary on the matter at hand. The more emotional I get, the less logical my argument and less likely the person I seeking to persuade will get beyond the presentation to the underlying principle.

user-pic

The evangelicals CAN'T farm out the teaching of biology. Their entire business plan depends on teaching their ideology to the exclusion of all opposing concepts, and Creationism is a key pillar to their worldview and the ideology that supports it.

For the Catholics, Creationism is of much less inherent importance to their Faith and they have a very different and much more varied set of worldviews than do the evangelicals. That's not too surprising since the evangelicals teach what is essentially a body of ideas which are heretical to Catholic doctrine. While the evangelicals firmly believe they are right and the Catholics are wrong, the Catholics consider themselves to "be" Christianity and they have the nearly 2 millennium history to demonstrate it.

user-pic

Yes Richard. And it was 'abortion' as well as some other issues, that softened that antipapist attitude.

I wish that somehow 'abortion' would just go away. We would get a lot more Catholics into our fold.

Oh and great line, 2000 years I mean. I have been using it for years.

80% of all Christians are Catholics. ha

user-pic

The bitching is always about evolution specifically. Not the Big Bang theory. Not General Relitivity. Not black holes or time dialation or all the wierdness implied by quantum physics.
It's just that evolution theory cuts too close to the bone. It calls into question the perfect specialness of human beings. It says we are animals and part of and dependent on the intricate webb of life instead of in charge by the decree of the omnipotent creator.
Seems to me that when fundamentalists talk about their beliefs it mostly boils down to their salvation, their eternal reward, and how it makes them feel good. That is the bottom line: them and them and of course them. And we can't even consider the posibility that maybe the whole shooting match is not about them. Too much time and energy invested in number one to allow for that.

user-pic

Nope this is not my experience at all. Look at the stats on the idiots who are TEACHING OUR CHILDREN who believe that the earth is 6000 years old.

Damn. I get too mad about this.

But man/nature is at the core. I agree.

The damn monkey argument.

user-pic

Oh, no, like DD says, there are the "young-earthers" out there, who argue stridently against the laws of physics, among other things.

"God" never said it, I know it, that ends it.

user-pic

I wish god would tell them to go to their room. hahaaha

user-pic

Taken literally, the Cain and Abel story tells us that Cain had a wife. Knowing that only four people existed on this planet, one can only surmise that either Cain took his mother away from Adam, which is not mentioned, or Adam and Eve had a daughter who is not mentioned, and her elder brother Cain took her as his wife in a case of incest that makes Jerry Lee Lewis look quite clean.

No school in this country could or should get away with teaching the Creationism theory only. If bible-thumpers want to stop the evolution theory from being taught, they can only try compromising by having their theory taught along with not only the EV theory, but also Buddhist teachings as well as every other religious doctrine known to man today.

Here in the US, we are supposed to practice the separation of church and state. If the church won't separate itself from the state, then let the church move to Texas and start separating from the rest of us there.

user-pic

Yep, like I said. Let them build and fund their own schools.

user-pic

Hey Bwak, did I tell you that I loved you today?

Ha!!!!!!!!

user-pic

Why not? Or what about the Hindu teachings of 24,000 year cycles? yes

user-pic

Creationists have often had trouble explaining the many deficiencies of humans whom they allege were God's work, but Mark Twain had a good explanation - "Man was made at the end of the week's work, when God was tired".

user-pic

Great line Fred. I am picking up your link now.

user-pic

Here's a more detailed, musical version of creation - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpNoQaB2LT0

user-pic

This is great. I just played it in our chattroom.

When you are bored some nite drop by Fred:

http://widget.mibbit.com/?settings=7a731d035e7e4a1205ccf106b1333be1&channel=%23tpm-aholics

user-pic

I had some trouble with the theory of evolution. If you keep going back at some point there's the question of why there was anything to big bang and start evolving. So I considered intelligent design. But considering the complexity of the universe how could any being be that intelligent, there's just too many details.

Than I saw the movie Rainman and how he could count all the toothpicks on the floor with just a glance. That's the type of attention to detail that would be needed to create a universe.

So now I'm a firm believer in idiot savant design.

user-pic
If you keep going back at some point there's the question of why there was anything to big bang and start evolving.

Evolutionary theory in no way addresses its origin. Questions about the origin of the universe in its current form, or even the beginning of the evolutionary processes, are not in the scope of the theory.

user-pic

Yeah Karl. I was having a 'discussion' with someone on a related blog.

'Scientists' know a lot about the 'properties' of gravity. BUT THEY REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT IS.

'Scientists' know a lot about the 'properties' of light. BUT THEY REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT IS.

There certainly are a lot of evolutionists of the zealot variety. And a lot of properties are known concerning how it works.

'They' know a lot of different manners in which biological entities change over time from generation to generation.

There can be long and boring adaptions.

There can be relatively 'catastrophic' changes in genetic make up for a biological entity and time seems to be 'squeezed'.

I love specific demonstrations of 'change'.

One of my favorite examples involves squirrels living in a relatively close proximity.

One group lives in a forest area with 'soft' nuts. And the video demonstrating how they get to the nutrition contained in the nuts is precious to watch.

A short distance away, the squirrels have a little different kind of claw to their make up. The nuts are harder. AND THEY BREAK THE NUTS ON ROCKS in order to obtain their nutrition.

Religious zealots take the oddest unexplainable examples and say: See the theory does not work.

There are things above the heavens and beneath the earth that are just not at the zealot's disposal. Ha!!

user-pic
So now I'm a firm believer in idiot savant design.

LOL!

user-pic

Kind of a good line, huh? I love lines like this.hahah

user-pic

I cannot believe in the existence of an entity that, by will alone, can change the shape of the Earth from a globe to a cube.

On the other hand, if God does exist, he is either the greatest mass murderer or the greatest underachiever in the history of the universe.

user-pic

Good point John. I have no doubt that there is a god or gods.

Whether or not they care about the ants on this rock.....

user-pic

First I think all children should be educated on what a 'theory' is And that we don't exactly 'know' something when we are going by our theories.

There are some people out there who believe that we were brought here by aliens such as in the movie Stargate. Maybe we should teach that theory too.

I suppose that it's a good idea when kids are in high school to have a conversation and touch on the fact that there are some alternate theories not widely believed and let the reasons why be known and understood. I think this would explain whey evolution is the theory we do follow... because the facts back it up as most likely.

Give them the facts and let them draw their own conclusions. That may be better than leaving it unaddressed so that when the subject comes up they can put the particular theory/idea in a healthy perspective.

user-pic

I cannot disagree with this Sync.

But what questions should be posed on the SAT?

And what are the proper answers to those questions?

Leave a comment

dickday

user-pic

Following: 284
Followers: 132

Posts
Comments & Recommends


  • Location Virginia, MN
  • Party Democrat
  • Politics Fabian Socialist

Favorites

  • Favorite Blogs huffington post Slate
  • Favorite Books Le Morte D'Artur, Justice at Nuremburg, Heroditus' An History, Foote's Civil War, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, and of Shaw's plays
  • Favorite Quotes A horse is a horse of course, of course -- a matter of strategery-- all men are created equal,

Bio

retired atty crotchety old man

All Reader Posts
How to use myTPM

Advertise Liberally
Share
Close Social Web Email

"To" Email Address

Your Name

Your Email Address