They Died For Our Freedom (Not Really)
This is based on a comment I just left on a Paul Rieckhoff post that's a little buried and this has to be said, and it has to be said on Memorial Day... first off... I have never served in the military, will never serve in the military and don't have the guts to die for some one else's cause. That out of the way...
Can we ban the phrase "died for our freedom?" Because I can't think of a post WWII military death that qualifies. Nobody fought for my freedom in Iraq, either time. Or Viet Nam. Or Korea. Or Panama. Or Grenada. Nobody rigged elections in Nicaragua for my freedom or yours. Even Afghanistan, which I do believe is a just war, has nothing to do with anyone's freedom. Maybe in his fever dreams, Osama bin Laden imagines subjecting us all to sharia law but even if we let him attack us without response for years that will never happen.
I've been alive since 1975 and in that time we have never fought a war for "our freedom." We've never even fought a war that we had to fight -- they've all been wars of choice. So this Memorial Day I will not give thanks to people who "sacrificed their lives for our freedoms" because that's not what happened. I'll apologize to people who sacrificed their lives for the ambitions of elite decision makers who need to be brought down a peg or two instead. Because that's the truth of it all and that's what we're really memorializing.
Can we ban the phrase "died for our freedom?" Because I can't think of a post WWII military death that qualifies. Nobody fought for my freedom in Iraq, either time. Or Viet Nam. Or Korea. Or Panama. Or Grenada. Nobody rigged elections in Nicaragua for my freedom or yours. Even Afghanistan, which I do believe is a just war, has nothing to do with anyone's freedom. Maybe in his fever dreams, Osama bin Laden imagines subjecting us all to sharia law but even if we let him attack us without response for years that will never happen.
I've been alive since 1975 and in that time we have never fought a war for "our freedom." We've never even fought a war that we had to fight -- they've all been wars of choice. So this Memorial Day I will not give thanks to people who "sacrificed their lives for our freedoms" because that's not what happened. I'll apologize to people who sacrificed their lives for the ambitions of elite decision makers who need to be brought down a peg or two instead. Because that's the truth of it all and that's what we're really memorializing.
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Great post Destor.
It is my belief that since WWII we have become, in many aspects of our behavior, what we use to go to war to stop.
But this day on the calendar has become perverted. No longer do we really honor the sacrifices that those have died made for our country...their memories are used by some who want to justify often indefensible actions that our government has taken in more recent military actions.
May 25, 2009 9:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly. They talk about "our freedom" but they mean something else entirely. The ones who go to war are braver than I am for sure and are mostly noble in their intentions, but they're being used and we're being lied to about it.
May 25, 2009 9:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well let's see...since our founding. Wars that truly involved fights that directly were abut protecting our 'freedom' by my count only include;
The American Revolution
The War of 1812
The War of the States
WWII
There might have been legitimate reasons for the other military actions we've involved in that aren't listed...but it wasn't for 'protecting our freedom'.
May 25, 2009 9:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're missing the point entirely. You're acting as though we have to have a banner for each war that says "Fighting for Freedom" or else those who die didn't die for freedom.
That's logically fallacious.
There were plenty of draftees in WW2 who just wanted to make it through the war to get back home. Are you insinuating that they died for freedom simply because the war was about defending freedom? Again, the logic is faulty.
It comes down to the motivation of those who serve. Most of those who serve are patriotic citizens who believe in defending this country and its ideals. Yes, that includes our freedoms.
So if they die, they most certainly died for our freedoms. No matter how you try to spin it you can't take that away from them.
May 26, 2009 12:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Most people who fight and die in wars do so because they are forced to (or choose to, for economic reasons), not because of some lofty ideals.
May 26, 2009 7:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually I am a bit taken aback that you felt compelled to state you never served. It is telling about what our country has become. I haven't served either but to comment on people who have, often having died doing it, and the reasons we have undertaken wars in the first place does one not have standing unless one has served? We have almost become a culture that worships at the altar of the warrior...and almost cult like in its fervor.
May 25, 2009 9:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, we all have standing. That's what having civilian control of the military is about. But I do like to be upfront about my own experiences. It bothers me when people who not only haven't served but who would never, blithely send others to war. I want to be more responsible about that, but may as well admit that I not only haven't served but that I never seriously considered it and can't imagine ever doing it. Consider it more "full disclosure" than claiming legitimacy. When it comes to actually making policy, I think people in the military or with military experience have too much influence, if anything.
May 25, 2009 10:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well we should have standing...and do to some extent, but.
I agree with you in you comments here. There was a reason the military is under civilian control...well 'technically' under civilian control. It seems the 'civilians' in control must gain some kind of private approval of the career military people or they will not be allowed to effectively oversee our armed forces. I am struck at how our founders never envisioned a standing national army and then looking at the behemoth that is our permanent military force currently in place. In many ways we have become the antithesis of what our founders envisioned us being.
May 25, 2009 10:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
That concerns me too. And don't forget that's the straussian/neocon plan:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/therap/2009/05/who-is-leo-strauss-and-why-sho.php
Perpetual War! That's their plan!
May 25, 2009 10:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
We have been in a state of perpetual war since WWII Thera...and even with a new administration in place, promising 'change', no change is in the offing.
Everything is put into the context of being a 'war'. The war on drugs, the war on terrorism, the war on poverty, war, war, war. The word conjures images that the danger facing us threatens the existence of our country as we know it. It allows the government to act in extraordinary ways disregarding the rule of law and leading to tyranny.
I read your very fine post about Strauss and the neocons. It is scary and more then a little troubling that there are forces in our society which seek to limit our freedom by saying they are protecting it. I suggest anyone who hasn't read that post to do so. So many times people who make that case do so in a shoddy way where critics can write it off as paranoid tin foil hat conspiracy theory stuff. Not the case you make though...very thorough and sound. A must read imho.
May 25, 2009 10:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, it's as you say. The war just never ends. It only morphs. Once I read and understood the straussians, I felt I had understood many events, not just the wars. It's very disheartening.
That post on the straussians went far and wide. I had no idea it would catch on as it did. But for me, it's been transforming, in terms of being able to understand things - all intertwined - that never made sense individually.
Thanks for your added insights on the "war" on everything!
May 25, 2009 10:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
The main culprit was 'The Cold War'. For 40 or so years it allowed our government to act in secret under the premise that at any moment thousands of Soviet nukes would come raining down on us. And people bought the story that the Soviets were suicidal maniacs who would launch an attack that assuredly would result in the total destruction of their country. Now that the Soviets are gone Islamic extremists have replaced them. Speaking to many people who buy the neocon bullsh*t I keep on hearing how much a threat Islam is to our way of life...if their religion takes hold here our country as we know it will perish. Same old song and dance. Keep us sacred, divided and on a constant war footing...and at war whenever possible. We are fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and for the last 50 years have had troops massed at the DMZ in Korea. Hell we still have a Cold War embargo on Cuba and the Cold War ended 20 years ago...Cuba is that big a threat to us?
May 25, 2009 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is there a way to un-recommend a post? What a bunch of pedantic drivel this is!
It's pretty obvious you've never served. I have. Have you ever spent 5 minutes to speak to anyone in uniform about why they serve? Most who serve are patriots who love their country and are willing to give their lives for our way of life (which includes our freedom, by the way).
The wars they are compelled to fight in are not of their choosing, but their motivations for joining the armed forces most certainly have to do with defending our lives, our land and our freedom.
Thanks for disparaging their motives and their sacrifice on the very day dedicated to them. Shame on you.
May 25, 2009 11:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're entitled to your opinion...and thanks for making my point.
May 26, 2009 12:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
What point is that? You tried to make a few and I'd like to respond to it directly.
May 26, 2009 12:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Basically all the points I made on this thread. I do respect and honor their service I just refuse to genuflect at the altar of the almighty warrior...and basically have no interest in defending my patriotism based on my views of how our military is being used, in terms of operations and their use in government propaganda. I guess I am also a bad person since I don't have multiple 'support our troops' ribbons on the back of my vehicle.
May 26, 2009 12:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
It has nothing to do with patriotism, but how noble is it to disparage those who serve by completely dismissing their motivations and saying they didn't die for our freedom? These are patriots who are serving their country. What purpose does it serve to attribute a negative connotation to their deaths? They signed up, volunteered, to defend our freedom. If they die in that service then it stands to logic that they died defending freedom.
And by the way, you claim to honor their service but then show your true colors by referring to them as the "almighty warrior". It drips with sarcasm.
May 26, 2009 12:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well I hope you are as passionate about defending them after their tours are up and they are tossed in underfunded VA facilities like they were depreciated equipment.
And for the record I still insist that not every conflict they fought and died in was to to really protect our freedom. This in no way disparages them...just our leaders.
May 26, 2009 12:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
The almighty warrior is a by-product of the way the government emphasizes their importance to our culture. Again it has nothing to do with them per se...just how we are 'programmed' to view the military. For a country that, when it was founded, was supposed to have no standing army it seems that now if not for the military there would be no country. Military supersedes country now. And anything our government does now is represented by a soldier wrapped in an American flag. Is that what the soldiers view themselves as? I don't think so but that is what we are told they are.
May 26, 2009 12:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm new at this pacifism thing, but particularly during the Iraq war runnup in 2003 we got this whole 'narrative' about how we owe everything to our valiant troops. I got an email from someone claiming that essentially we have Christmas because of the Iraq war - or wouldn't have Christmas without the war.
Where does my fealty to brave troops end? The prince of peace was brought to me by the dogs of war? Does that fealty extend all the way to tricking myself? We lost Vietnam - so did we become less 'free' after that? Of course not.
The 'motivations' of individual soldiers don't much matter. If they're ordered to torture, they torture. If they kill kids - well then that's just 'unintended' but of course then the next line is about how war is hell and you've got a break a few eggs to re-form the mid east or whatever.
I can understand why most soldiers can't tell themselves that they are just thugs for the oil companies or something. People need plenty of 'white lies' just to get through the day - but the problem comes when the white lie becomes a 'fact.'
May 26, 2009 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
See the breakthrough new website ourvoiceourcountry.org for a timeline and information on American Popular Movements, the engine for positive change that has fueled our democracy.
Those who took stands for freedom and justice through these principled Movements, sometimes leading to beatings, arrest and even death are great American patriots, whose courage are an inspiration for our time, and will continue to be so for future generations.
It is the freedom and justice brought forward by these Movements that are often the motivation, whether truly of falsely, used to urge our soldiers on in times of war.
May 26, 2009 12:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Most men and women serve in the military and when needed serve during a conflict for honorable reasons. They may feel called to some great cause beyond themselves. They may be serving a personal ethic of civic responsibility. They may be trying to improve themselves in character or social standing. They may feel obligated by a sense of equitably sharing in a burden that has been laid upon others. Or they may just be motivated to observe the Law and answer the draft.
All men and women are taken into the military and used in conflicts by selfish men in pursuit of their own power and ambition. Even the world wars were the product of the selfish ambition of a few who first neglected the welfare and security of most.
There is plenty of honor in military service. There is almost no honor in the use of military force. Every person who died in a war died with honor. Every one of those deaths was caused by someone who knew no great cause other than themselves; someone who had no personal ethic other than themselves; someone who was interested in improving only themselves over others; someone who had no sense of equity and who used the Law for their own selfish gain; someone who had no honor.
(Note: It seems to me that there is no significance in the fact that you did not serve in a conflict other than that you were lucky you didn’t.)
May 26, 2009 1:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Larry, you are such a great theorist! I admire your comments immensely!
May 26, 2009 11:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are right Destor.
It has been many decades since those who have died in the US Military were fighting for our freedom. It is right and honorable to pay homage to those whose lives have been taken during miiltary combat, but it is certainly inaccurate to say they died fighting for freedom in any of the wars in my lifetime starting with Viet Nam. All our wars in recent decades have been imperialist wars whose main aim is to dominate a country or region.
May 26, 2009 2:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
I posted a blog earlier today which I think speaks to what you are saying. Please understand that I don't necessarily disagree with your statements, just your timing.
"Today we do not debate the merits of the job they do at our behest, but honor the blood they shed at our request. Because even when the mission itself is questionable or not well thought out....American Armed Services are on the ground doing thier job! We owe them respect for that.
It's a somber and gloomy day. It's raining...and perhaps that is appropriate. Even the heavens should weep for the loss of our soldiers.
And after we have reflected upon the blood that we have spilled, perhaps we as a nation will remember how precious that blood is.
Let us make this promise to our troops: Tomorrow we will think about the loss before we commit the troops. Tomorrow, we will be certain that the loss is justified by the mission.
There are times and places where military action is not only justified, but required. Regardless of the justification, tomorrow let us never forget that in the real world we bury our children in war! Perhaps tomorrow, we will remember that war is a reality and not a B-movie! The extras don't get up after the filming and have coffee.
Today, let us say God Speed to our fallen countrymen! Our prayers go to your families. And thank you!"
I sincerely hope we heed your words tomorrow!
May 26, 2009 2:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
here's a couple of short quotes you might enjoy:
Also, don't take it personal, but your really ought to see this.May 26, 2009 8:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Now that's riding lightning!
May 26, 2009 8:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
We fight them over there so that we do not have to fight them here!!! w
We fight them over there so that we do not fight the real enemy here. Me.
May 26, 2009 10:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
To everybody that question the timing of this post and the comments...Speaking for myself I am fully comfortable with what was said and when it was said.
I do care about the men and women who serve our country and value their service. I care about them so much that on 'their day' I will question how and why we are fighting the conflicts in which they died. So my take is not only wasn't it inappropriate to do the post and make these comments yesterday...it was the absolute right time. In fact what better time to...
May 26, 2009 9:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, D, I made much the same points to my wife yesterday and was going to write a post about honoring the military by not using them. We should honor their sacrifice by acknowledging that it has nothing to do with our "freedom" and everything to do with protecting the American Empire.
You don't need to have served or even wanted to serve in order to examine the evidence and come to a logical conclusion. I spent ten years in the "peace time" Navy of the 90s. Just about anyone in uniform then and now would say they prefer exercises and operations to wars. They prefer being "pretend" warriors than getting shot at. They would much rather do Goodwill Cruises where they build schools and paint orphanages than get shot at in Iraq or Afghanistan.
We should honor our troops by closing every damn military base in the world and quit waving our dicks in everyone's faces. We should honor our troops by letting them train with foreign counterparts and learn new cultures without being required to shoulder the human cost of collateral damage to civilian populations. We should honor our troops by letting them be stationed in the US exclusively, keeping them close to families that crumble in their absence. We should honor the troops by giving them the gear they need to fulfill the missions we give them.
There is zero honor in the continued abuse of the military and military families, no matter how many flags we wave or speeches we listen to or magnets we stick on our cars.
May 26, 2009 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't even hear the word “freedom” anymore when it is used to rally for war. All I hear is “Freedumb, freedumb, freeeee dumb”.
May 26, 2009 10:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Removing ourselves from the safe distance of 2009, I get the feeling that transported to December, 1941 both Libertine and Destor would be raising the same complaints about "dying for someone else's cause', which would be their right.
Hawaii was not even a state, there were ample economic reasons for the war, and it was unlikely the Japanese would do anything to deny our 'freedom' here in the continental US. The Japanese sought hegemony in Asia not North America, just as the on a smaller scale, Mao sought to control Korea when he sent the Chinese Army across the Yalu against MacArthur.
May 26, 2009 11:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's a very powerful objection and I have to admit that I don't know. I've never been asked to die for any cause and I won't pretend to be able to tell you how I'd react to it. Some of my relatives fought in the Pacific. Some almost didn't come back. I'd resent never being born over it.
But, though I come down, from a safe distance on the WWII Is a Just War side, I do think there are reasonable contrary arguments.
May 26, 2009 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure NCD. The reason I'm not sure is, just as you state, we are so far removed. But if there is an attack on our military forces in any of our territorial possessions by another sovereign nation (i.e. someone attacks lets say Puerto Rico) I would say a declaration of war is justified because the attack would be an act of war. So I am guessing if I was there at the time that I would have been fully supportive of our government's actions. Good question and point you make...
May 26, 2009 12:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
The fact is we weren't fighting for our freedom in WW2, or for revenge for Pearl Harbor, although that attack jump started recruitment and the war effort. In the end, if the voters elect honest leaders with the best interests at heart, no war would be entered into that was not totally justified and necessary. I think WW2 and Korea were justified. On the other hand if the US had stayed home and let Europe slug it out in the stalemate of WW1 they might have eventually made a true peace and we might have avoided WW@.
In ww2 we were fighting to prevent the military rulers of Japan and Germany from turning Asia and Europe into a resource base, and Asians/Europeans into serfs, for the Japanese and German war economys. To understand what life under these regimes was like you must read books like The Rape of Nanking link or Prisoners of the Japanese link, or literature on the Holocaust.
May 26, 2009 8:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe we still have some old-fashioned and ritualized ways of talking about the military profession that don't quite match the reality.
First, the US military in 2010 is an employer, and participation in the military is job. One gets paid for doing it. For some it is a career; For others, it is just a job they do for a few years before moving on to something else.
I assume most people in the military feel good about the job they do, and in addition think that what they are doing is very useful to the country, advancing various national interests, including legitimate defensive interests, that can be advanced through the use of actual military force or preparation for the use of military force.
The most important defensive role the military plays consists in its mere existence, and its maintenance of a continual state of readiness. Apart from the actual wars that are fought, and whether or not those controversial wars are truly defensive wars, soldiers are indeed "defending our freedom" just by getting up every day on their bases, keeping in training and doing their jobs. Their preparedness to defend the country sends the message to potential attackers that the country is quite capable of defending itself, and exerts an ongoing deterrent effect.
Yes, there is a certain amount of pious doubletalk surrounding the military profession. Many people have a strong need to believe all of our military endeavors are "defensive". I suppose they are if you use a sufficiently strong sense of "defense" where advancing one's interest is described as "defending" one's interests. My impression is that soldiers, especially those career soldiers with long years of service under their belts, are fairly canny about understanding the difference between pious doubletalk and reality.
It is good for the community to honor people who do dangerous jobs such as military service, firefighting and police work, and to take note of the fallen and memorialize them, because that community honor and appreciation is an extra form of compensation that gives people an incentive to do bad jobs that they might not otherwise want to do.
It is just a bit misleading to describe this profession in terms of "volunteering" and "service". Joining the military is not the same thing as signing up to give one's time and labor freely to coach a Little League team. It's also not some kind of bucket brigade. I guess you could say I am a volunteer at my job, because nobody forced me to take it. Nevertheless, it is a job for which I am compensated. we also talk about "service" in the workplace, but it's a bit of a euphemism.
May 26, 2009 12:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Some good points in here, but the military is not a job like any other. Not even like the police or firefighters, exactly, because "the boss" can't come along one day and send your entire firehouse to fight blazes in the middle east.
Many people join the military for any number of reasons, but economic necessity and finding a permanent way out of hardship typically factor highest on the list. It is a "volunteer" force in that the military is rode hard and put away wet on a constant basis with very little regards for the cascading societal ills that come from that misuse.
Economic austerity and dead-end lives are as sure a "recruiting" tool as a forced draft.
May 26, 2009 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Out of the park..................much respect D, for some much needed truth telling.
May 26, 2009 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for giving voice to several ideas I also share, destor23.
I often feel awkward on Memorial Day. One part of me doesn't want to show disrespect for the fallen, ruin anyone's fun, or get attacked by pseudo-patriotic hordes on my day off for saying what I really think.
But every time I hear someone say the day is for our war dead, I want to ask:
"Can't it be just as much for remembering the horrors of war?
Or does that defeat another key goal of the day, which I believe is the subtle indoctrination of the minds of the young, establishing the equation in their impressionable minds of [going off to war] with [hot dogs, BBQ, parades, big-screen TV sports, fun, pool parties and solemn expressions of respect from all]." It's a big part of a process that is includes rah-rah war movies, the Great John Wayne Rambo syndrome.
Regarding the point of dying for "our freedoms," I completely concur. But I finally realized that what Bush and the neocons mean when they say "freedom" is not the freedom to pursue happiness, or freedom of speech, or even freedom of or from religion, but something more like the "freedom" to pursue their imperialist or capitalist dreams. Unimpinged and unregulated big business activity. Like the freedom to build McDonald's franchises or Mobil Gas stations in Iran or Nicaragua or wherever. That's the only way they can say such absurd things with a straight face, I have to think.
Respect,
Turnaround
May 26, 2009 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great post.
May 26, 2009 8:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am a Vietnam veteran. My unit, a combat engineer battalion, had many deaths. (They're at panel 5W of the Vietnam Memorial.) I wish I could say that those men died defending freedom or that they even believed in what they were doing. However, that isn't true. We were stuck in an existential nightmare that made no sense then and even less now. The only people who believed in our mission were our senior officers. Of course, the highest rank of anyone who died was E-4. Half of our deaths were non-combat related. They included a guy who fell in a rock crusher; a guy who got drunk his first night in the unit, puked and aspirated his vomit; a malaria death; 2 guys who died in a truck accident; 2 drug overdoses; 2 guys who died in a helicopter accident (the tail rotor came off during a landing at our base); a guy who injected battery acid thinking it was heroin; 2 GI on GI murders, etc. (I did all the casualty reports, so I know.) Most of our combat deaths were by IED, also a pretty inglorious and random way to die.
Those who see any glory or honor in war are not seeing the war I saw.
May 26, 2009 9:15 PM | Reply | Permalink