« The Never Ending Story: Peddling Al Qaeda Fear | Desidero's Blog | Eighth Amendment: No Cruel and Unusual Punishment »

Murder + Waterboarding ≠ Torture (when you're scared enough)


I originally titled this "No Hope, No Change."

First, "they" have won the debate. "They" killed around 100 people in the name of "interrogation", prisoners who will not come back. "They" shifted this interrogation to mean only "water boarding", not beating to death and mangling and psychologically destroying in various ways such as years of solitary, and now "they" have gotten us to accept that a little bit of water boarding and stress positions is okay, is a good thing, keeps us safe. And while "they're" at it, beat them against the wall a bit and string them up by the knuckles too, it's just an "enhanced" interrogation technique to find out what the enemy's plotting and keep us safe. Who are "they"? By latest polling, "they" appears to look an awful lot like "us". There were lots of humane doctors and nurses at these "enhanced interrogation" potential-murder sessions, ready to bring the patient, sorry, I mean incorrigible terrorist and threat to our freedom, back to consciousness/life so we can go Back Jack, Do it Again. Let's see, al-Libi we had killed in a Libyan jail - extraordinary rendition, remember? What's most extraordinary is Qaddafi was supposed to be an anti-American supporter of terrorism. Guess he turned out to be a good sport after all. When your enemies support you, can you be on the wrong track? Think of it as global bi-partisanship. Hey, even Garrison Keillor says don't look back, don't be so Woebegone.

Go read Digby now, for the last few days, Empty Wheel as well, depress yourself, then come back.

Did you get down to the part where we relabeled prisoner suicide "manipulative self-inflicted injurious behavior", SIB? A nation of marketers, we are. Sell sand to Arabs, sell ice to Eskimos (Inuit), sell torture to Americans (self-absorbed cowards).

We have Alan Greyson cross-examining the Inspector General over the Federal Reserve, and all she can say is they're doing a "review" to figure out what to study about general topics that may or may not address Federal Reserve actions that extended trillions in off-book credits 8 months ago.

(This is Obama's Inspector General. We're in mid-May now, honeymoon's over. Watch the YouTube if nothing else. Scary. And Obama just announced he wants to put the Fed in charge of managing systemic risks amongst the too-big-to-fails - it's in Digby, trust me.)

We have Harold Ford who defends torture, that it was okay in 2002-2003 because we were vewwy vewwy scared. They might have nukes!!! Laser beams!!! Anti-gravity force fields!!! He even defends Cheney, hoping that one day all of Dick's secret evidence will be released. Eric Holder is head of the DLC, Democratic Leadership Council, one of the driving forces of Democratic policy and philosophy. Torture apologist.

We have Harry Reid, the Senate Majority Leader, head of one of our two Legislative Branches, telling us it's the responsibility of the Executive Branch leaders to carry the burden of deciding when to torture and when not, when to break the law and when not. Politico reports today that our other Legislative Branch leader, Nancy Pelosi, deferred to Jane Harman to protest torture, without signing on, and when Harman's letter went nowhere? "Them's the breaks". (Pardon the pun). Let's just say I don't expect a lot of checks and balances out of these motherfuckers, not that I didn't get the hint some time ago. Official Administration policy remains, "Don't look back, look forward", which now, as reports Empty Wheel, means reviving the Guantanamo Military Commissions. More change!!! More hope!!!

We have the discharging of gays from the military continuing, even though we're ramping up the war in Pakistan now that Petraeus has declared the war in Afghanistan won. (I discussed this in part yesterday.) Presumably we'll need some gay Urdu and Pashtun speakers in the military? Guess not. But we have a letter on record that Obama feels their pain, decrying the policy his administration is forced to continue. (Until you've faced the scorn and ridicule of Rush and Fox News, don't laugh). A Hero ain't nuttin' but a sandwich.

We have Obama supporting a letter from health industry lobbyists, one that proposes savings through among other remedies cutting back on "overuse" of health care services. Let's see a show of hands out there, everyone who knows someone who has "overused" health care services sometime in the last 40 years. Don't everyone pipe up at once. And in case this support isn't enough, it looks like Obama is again signing on to "reforming" Social Security. Now, if his Federal Reserve IG doesn't have one specific piece of regulatory information on Fed dispersal of trillions since September, and if his FCC nominee is completely inept dragged upwards by her well-connected father, I don't see any room for optimism, though I am somewhat wondering if someone will have the chutzpah to bring back "private savings accounts" now that we're all so confident and trusting in our country's financial savings and mortgage institutions. Let's see a show of hands out there, who's ready to jump back in the stock market? Water's warm!!! Never mind the sharks circling!!! House, anyone? Cheap, and should I remind, location, location, location!!!

I don't know, there was something more as depressing, can't recall what it was. Guess that's enough for today, don't want to bring you down. Only love can break your heart.

 
PS - Digby does note a revealing if mostly overlooked statement from Cheney admitting coverup in Iran-Contra: "I went through the Iran-contra hearings and watched the way administration officials ran for cover and left the little guys out to dry. And I was bound and determined that wasn't going to happen this time." Glad to know Obama is doing his part as well, move the debate forward. Certainly the nation doesn't need self-recrimination and remorse and self-reflection and accountability at this dangerous crossroads in history. Tally ho!!!

PPS - And might I say, brilliant strategy, introducing bank "stress tests" to confuse our little brains from "stress positions", along with Geithner's repackaging results that originally were "suck big bags of rocks" into "firm as a rock". I bow before the feet of the master.

PPPS - Via Glenn Greenwald, Obama Administration threatens British court, British government on revealing details on Binyam Mohamed's torture - if they do, Britain will no longer receive US intelligence information. Obama is now Bush's water boy. Torture apologist, torture accessory. Our international human rights agreements are no only so much shitted toilet paper.



 










 







29 Comments

| Leave a comment
user-pic

I know... I know... But I suggest that when you are done being depressed that you get really pissed off(anger is an appropriate and healthy indication of and experience of a perceived boundary violation)and 'do' something. What matters is how we repond.

Obama would not be president right now without 'us'. 'We' made that happen. We can make other things happen but we typically feel powerless, try a little, it gets tough, we do less, get less traction, and give up.

If we could get the same crowds of people that showed up for Obama's rallies to rally in the streets for these issues, sort of like the way they protest in France, if we could learn to do something like that, we would see some change.
I could see this truly being possible when it comes to healthcare. If organizations could unite and have a build up events leading to a day where we all took the streets to demonstrate (maybe a sit in where we all stop traffic and sit in the streets) that we stand for healthcare for all americans, we could make ourselves heard.

I won't quit. I can't give up. I've seen how little things can make a difference.

I will not give up on 'real' and 'meaningful' healthcare reform.

I will not give up on 'accountability' and restoring the rule of law. Politicians of both parties are acting as though our laws are optional and we must push back against that.

I will not give up on getting rid of 'don't ask, don't tell'(it seems to me a violation of the constitution and a violation of personal integrity/freedom).

We deserve a more perfect union (recognizing there is a LOT of room for perfecting).

These things are worth fighting for or they are not worth having.

I will not accept the the dominance of those who use manipulation, mind control, the power of status quo, and hypnosis to try to override critical thinking by sending their 'message' and attempting to own and define public perception.

This country was created by citizens. It is preserved by citizens who have been willing to organize and fight, and die for it. Changes have always come by speaking truth to power and fighting for them.

It would be nice to think that we could just elect the right person and he/she could do all of the heavy lifting for us. But President Obama would still be Senator Obama if we had not fought for what we wanted. He had just as much going for him as he did going against him. It was 'us', we made him president and if we stay in touch with that we can make other changes happen. 'We' elected our first black president. Do 'we' really want to stop there. As far as I am concerned we are on a roll.

Heading toward success, obstacles will arise (such as a Bush/Cheney adminstration that has done about as much as they could intentionally or not to weaken our country). How 'we' respond to that is a demonstrationof the content of 'our' character. We can give up because it's hard, and it's work or we can decide that we deserve it that what we are fighting for is worth it and resolve to keep going no matter what. That's how you get there. That is why we know have our first black president.

It takes work. Look what people have done throughout history to fight for right and to fight for changes. They are our ancestors and we carry their spirit.

I know you were probably not looking for this kind of response and I know I am very idealistic. But what I know about myself is that it is my job to be this way.

Another way to look at this is that overall you've looked at the landscape and pointed out the evidence that the glass is half-empty and I am just pointing to some evidence to say yes, but it is also half-full. Blessings:)

user-pic

What matters is how we 'respond'.

user-pic

You're talking from the view of someone who wanted Obama, and still seems to think there's something vastly different from corruption-as-usual.

I'm talking from the view of someone who never trusted him, nor the glorious visions of post-partisanship, who didn't think we'd get out of Iraq quickly, who didn't think we'd stand up to Republicans and their media, who didn't think we'd put women's rights or ethnic equality high on the totem pole, who didn't think we'd get meaningful health care reform, who didn't think we'd hold the torture regime accountable.

In short, give me your solution minus the optimism. The people and the press have voted overwhelmingly without asking the tough questions, and as the YouTube video shows, those questions still won't be answered even if someone like Greyson or Feingold slams their purse on the table screaming, "I want my money". Instead, the last months have been full of blather about how we can't look too close at the money transactions, can't look too closely at the torture procedures - we're scared, we need someone to do something, anything, tell us when we can open our eyes. The polls say the people want the torture, just don't make them watch too much of the process. These are the mainstream voters Obama has focused his efforts on. I'm too left-wing for him, I'm a cry baby, I should grow up, become practical and pragmatic.

Obama has triangulated into regions I never wanted to go. No wonder he can easily campaign for Specter, compromise with the Blue Dogs, toss Wall Street a T-bone. The Democratic Party has gone off into the land of no deep principles, no fine print, just as the Republicans have destroyed themselves by worshiping money and hard-nose process politics (aka "rub the opposition's nose in shit") above all else.

Try this on for size: no one has a fucking clue what kind of person Obama will choose for Supreme Court justice. Though I would surmise it's not going to be far to the left. Obama doesn't have to have principles because we don't demand them of him. He can do whatever he wants and people will cheer and explain and excuse if necessary. It's amazing. "He's not as bad as Bush" is not an evolved political philosophy. National health insurance that is bad can be much much worse than living with the current system, much as I'd like to see a good national health system. Has anyone predicted what our banking/finance system will look like in 5 years, and how it will be for normal citizens and the health of the country? Are we back to assuming everything will be okay? "Trust me", the worst 2 words in politics.

user-pic

One honest private rag describes the "recovery" as a dead-cat's bounce, and asks a quite pertinent question:

"Can you name anything the optimistic politicians and bankers have done to actually correct the fundamental problems facing Western civilization, instead of merely masking them?"

Spread out and subsidize the toxic liabilities, split up the car companies, what's next?

user-pic

“You're talking from the view of someone who wanted Obama, and still seems to think there's something vastly different from corruption-as-usual.”

>>I won’t argue about wanting Obama. I did. And I still think from the options we had he is the better man for the job.

“I'm talking from the view of someone who never trusted him, nor the glorious visions of post-partisanship, who didn't think we'd get out of Iraq quickly, who didn't think we'd stand up to Republicans and their media, who didn't think we'd put women's rights or ethnic equality high on the totem pole, who didn't think we'd get meaningful health care reform, who didn't think we'd hold the torture regime accountable.”

>>While I did want Obama to be president. I did not count on his being able to just walk into Washington, wave a magic wand and make all my dreams come true. As I said the things ‘we’ want, ‘we’ are going to have to fight for. I did not ever get the impression that post-partisanship was close at hand with the ugly election process we had. It seemed stronger than ever. I understand you never liked or trusted Obama but I do trust him to do the best ‘he’ can. I just did not put the expectations on him that you express here. I do not think anyone could walk into the mess that our country is in and just ‘fix’ it with the snap of his/her fingers and have all of the perfect solutions and make everything right.

It is because I don’t place the responsibility on him to make everything happen that I do believe that we can get meaningful healthcare reform but certainly not if we just offer the typical reaction of blame the politicians and change nothing/do nothing ourselves. I believe if meaningful healthcare reform is worth having, it is worth fighting for.

“In short, give me your solution minus the optimism. The people and the press have voted overwhelmingly without asking the tough questions, and as the YouTube video shows, those questions still won't be answered even if someone like Greyson or Feingold slams their purse on the table screaming, "I want my money". Instead, the last months have been full of blather about how we can't look too close at the money transactions, can't look too closely at the torture procedures - we're scared, we need someone to do something, anything, tell us when we can open our eyes. The polls say the people want the torture, just don't make them watch too much of the process. These are the mainstream voters Obama has focused his efforts on. I'm too left-wing for him, I'm a cry baby, I should grow up, become practical and pragmatic.”

>>My job is optimism, not going to quit that. Solution? Well, I have ideas like taking action to create coalitions of groups that want to see meaningful healthcare reform and where there is agreement and work to create that series of events leading up to an event/demonstration on a national scale. I think Americans are mostly unified on getting meaningful healthcare reform. I think this is a realistic option. Part of the events should include ‘setting the people’s table for healthcare reform and inviting people to come and engage in dialogue and present different plans and ideas that might work so that we can kick things around. And other people may have much better ideas than mine.

Just as I don’t feel that I should just ‘expect’ the president to fix everything, I don’t expect the media to do what it should be doing without pressure from us. Right now it is ‘us’ that is missing in all of these problems. I do not believe that we can’t just point a finger and say they are supposed to do this and they are not so it’s not going to happen. Sometimes you have to do things yourself. I think that we as a people have been lackadaisical too long about government and media and what we have now is a result of this. We have left our employees in charge of our business for far too long.

We are going to have to work for and fight for what we want. I don’t give a gd what the polls say. I know that the politicians use media, message, and mind games to try to persuade and control public perception. We know that there have been crimes committed and it is up to us to make sure that there is accountability. You are completely mistaken if you think that I am some person in la la land expecting Obama to make everything okay. I don’t think any one person can just make this mess okay and I certainly don’t have any desire to attack you personally for your perspective. I think he is doing the best he can do with his current skills, tools at his disposal, and current understanding. He just the president.

“Obama has triangulated into regions I never wanted to go. No wonder he can easily campaign for Specter, compromise with the Blue Dogs, toss Wall Street a T-bone. The Democratic Party has gone off into the land of no deep principles, no fine print, just as the Republicans have destroyed themselves by worshiping money and hard-nose process politics (aka "rub the opposition's nose in shit") above all else.

>>No doubt, I don’t like some of these things either but I still think he’s making the best of the players, problems, and territory he has to deal with. The two parties have gotten lawless and ridiculous like teenagers who’ve been left without parental supervision for far too long. It is my opinion that ‘we’ are what is missing. If we don’t change, this is only going to get worse. If we don’t change, we may not only, not get meaningful healthcare reform; we may just sit back and let our country fall apart. Parenting teenagers is hard work. Having the kind of country we ‘want’ may require more from us than we have been willing to do.

The thing is we can. We can change things. If the things we want are worth having, then they are worth fighting for. If they aren’t, well then we can just sit back, go for a ride, and take what we get because it’s all we are willing to take responsibility for. It just depends on which way we ‘choose’ to direct our attention.
If you want things to be different, if you want things to get better my suggestion is ‘be different and get better’. No we may not be able to change everything we want but we can make it better, more perfect. You seem to me like a person who wants it all which is great because then we just keep on working to make it more perfect.

"Try this on for size: no one has a fucking clue what kind of person Obama will choose for Supreme Court justice. Though I would surmise it's not going to be far to the left. Obama doesn't have to have principles because we don't demand them of him. He can do whatever he wants and people will cheer and explain and excuse if necessary. It's amazing. "He's not as bad as Bush" is not an evolved political philosophy. National health insurance that is bad can be much much worse than living with the current system, much as I'd like to see a good national health system. Has anyone predicted what our banking/finance system will look like in 5 years, and how it will be for normal citizens and the health of the country? Are we back to assuming everything will be okay? "Trust me", the worst 2 words in politics."

>>As far as the Supreme Court goes. I actually believe that President Obama has a deep passion for the law. I think he himself would like to serve on the supreme court. I actually think he will take great care in this decision and I have confidence in him to make a good choice. His choice may not be the perfection you would desire but I believe that it will be good.

We have to get involved. We have been asleep at the wheel. I think that the republicans preferred it that way so they learned how to project hypnotic messaging to get us on board and let them run the show. Bad move ‘us’. I think the democrats and republicans both have strengths and weaknesses but right now ‘we ‘ are what is missing. And we can point all of the fingers and get pissed off at everyone and afraid about everything and give up hope and just take what we get because that’s all we are willing to do.
WE could also choose to take responsibility for the mess ‘we’ have created through our participation, involvement, or lack thereof and change that, start somewhere, and get to work.

I believe that if it’s worth having, it’s worth fighting for. I believe that anything is possible, we may have to work for it, however.

“One honest private rag describes the "recovery" as a dead-cat's bounce, and asks a quite pertinent question:
"Can you name anything the optimistic politicians and bankers have done to actually correct the fundamental problems facing Western civilization, instead of merely masking them?"
Spread out and subsidize the toxic liabilities, split up the car companies, what's next?”

When I was a teenager I picked up a random book at my grandparent’s house and I opened it at random to a page that had this poem:

(Two men looked out from prison bars. One saw mud and the other saw stars.)—I do not know the author.

Where we choose to focus our attention and how we choose to respond. That makes all the difference in the world.

user-pic

Obama put in Geithner. He put in Larry Summers, he wanted Daschle, one of the great dead-ender health care lobbyists, he put in Eric Holder, kept in Gates and Petraeus, he's bent over backwards for anti-gay preachers and made clear he's not intent on investigating the previous administration. Meanwhile we've given away trillions, including much of that since Jan 20, we're dismantling the car companies, we're upping our military ante in Pakistan while slow-balling the withdrawal from Iraq (euphemistically called "support troops"), we continue to embrace torture and the extrajudicial procedures "against terrorism"...

Sorry, skip the optiimism, I'll stick to seeing bars until someone actually cuts the window open. Do I think I can convince very many blue sky visionaries out there? No. I write a long post, and all you can give me back a "glass half full, half empty" psychoanalysis. In contrast to the Obama crowd, "No, I can't" ("No, no se puede"). Maybe "poco a poco" if that.

user-pic

From Glenn Greenwald:

Right now -- as the American press corps celebrates itself for demanding Saberi's release in Iran -- the U.S. continues to imprison Ibrahim Jassam, a freelance photographer for Reuters, even though an Iraqi court last December -- more than five months ago -- found that there was no evidence to justify his detention and ordered him released. The U.S. -- over the objections of the CPJ, Reporters Without Borders and Reuters -- refused to recognize the validity of that Iraqi court order and announced it would continue to keep him imprisoned.

user-pic

Your choice. Enjoy.

user-pic

Sync. You are hummin today!!!!!!

user-pic

Name that tune....

user-pic

Yes he has Dick, he expresses optimism and very good points that I totally sgree with. I can't agree with Des, Lalo and the other trolls who despised Obama from the start and offer nothing but hate and negativity to the table of debate, that will get you nowhere. People like Sync and Free Rider got it right when it comes to Obama. People like Desidero got it wrong. If Obama was such a terrible President like Des thinks he is, then he wouldn't be getting a 67 percent approval rating from gallup and a 90-4 approval rating from his own party. Des is a sore loser and an very unhappy man and because Obama dosen't live up to his standards, he hates him with a passion and let's that hate known here on TPM Cafe. Yes do I disagree with Obama on things? yes. I disagreed with the money in the stimulus and his plan for Afghanistan and that's only because no matter what he does he will fail because Afghanistan is not winnable anymore and it's a losing battle sadly. But just because I disagree with him dosen't mean I think he's a bad President and will lothe the very sight of him. No, I just know I won't agree with everything he says, same goes with my family and friends.

Thank you for your good postings Sync, you expressed it well. Des, take some medication and calm down, because you have a deep hate for Obama that's scary. Same goes for Bluebell, Rtuabaga Ridgepole and Oleeb. There's people that dislike people and there's people that dispise people and you sir are the latter.

Well that's all I have to say on the matter. Have a good day. Take care and God bless.

user-pic

Great, Bradley - George W Bush had 90% approval at one point, which means he must have been a good president.

Shorter Bradley - "Des doesn't agree with me, so he must be a troll." Bwaah ha ha ha ha. Grow up.

Do I "despise" Obama? Hardly. He seems a fair bit like myself, not that I would vote myself president.

But clue-to-Brad: I'm not obligated to like Obama, or show optimism, or anything else. If I'm sitting in a shithole, I'll likely point out it stinks.

One of our torture & extraordinary rendition victims died still in custody 3 weeks ago, in a Libyan prison where we sent him, likely murdered. Optimism? Change?

You write 29 lines, and don't address one goddamn thing I wrote, just say, "Obama's popular so he must be good."

Go bother someone else.

user-pic

And to be clear, Sync disagreed with me but discussed my points, didn't just wave happy dust over my face.

user-pic

you haz happy dust? I want some. Soma for the masses! Thant's the ticket?

Seriously, this is intolerable, Des. I'm not sure that we could have elected anyone with the balls to go after the status quo, but it ain't happening.

I guess the worst thing we can do is give up, and/or pretend everything is hunky-dory. It isn't.

I'm glad to see you haven't given up.

Good post. Thanks.

user-pic

Okay, Bwak steps in with some wisdom - "a little bit of happy dust be okay".

user-pic

My big issue with Obama during the primary is that I thought he was too much of a compromiser and couldn't think of anything he'd stand on his principles against public opinion for... Well I was wrong. He went against public opinion to go to bat for Wall Street. Whoo hoo. Now the democrats are the party that protects Wall Street. Anytime Congress makes a move to address executive comp, the White House has a new intiative with no teeth, no results, just words.

Helping homeowners facing foreclosure in Bankruptcy Court by forcing cramdowns. White House went silent after promising their full support when it was taken out of the bailout bill. I have 0% hope left for a public option now that the health care industry has come to Jesus and is willing to reduce costs by eliminating unnecessary procedures. Thanks! Don't Ask Don't Tell, nope leave that to Congress to kick around for another four years. That's a big help to deny benefits to the folks that already have health care. How does that help the uninsured again?

And if he's not going to do the big stuff with sky high approval ratings, when will he do it? Egads. I don't think he has any principles other than compromise, and the opposition is a flailing, stumbling set of asshats who have no idea how to get back on the right track. Why are the compromises with them and progressives are left withering out in the desert?

I've been too annoyed to comment much Desi, but thanks for keeping up the good fight.

user-pic

Via Greenwald today - Dawn Johnsen thrown under the bus for simply opposing lawlessness. Arlan Specter supported 100% just because he's one of the Washington gang. Forget Democratic values. It's nepotism and pat-on-the-back redux. Hey, can you get that spot behind my shoulder blade? Yeah, little lower, that's it.

user-pic

Choosing one of the above...

Ted Koppel yesterday on NPR (paraphrased);
"If it's (waterboarding) OK for terrorist suspects as the shortcut to obtaining life-saving information, what about for drug dealers? Where does it stop?"

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104023978

Monster point Ted. The slippery, and fast, slope to Police State. The Bush Regime and it's Gestapo wannabe Cheney were so corrupted and so lunatic on this matter, we only see the bare outlines of it yet.

user-pic

Tasering for one is commonplace. Multiple times. Old women, kids, doesn't matter. Get them to behave. Even if it kills a few.

user-pic

Yes. If we don't have high standards across all aspects of jurisprudence, if we don't rule out physical mistreatment of all types, we're halfway duped by the Cheney's of the world already.

Which I really think is the offensive fascist's objective here, before he checks in at hell. He'd like to fire back at Obama for outing his criminality, but he moreso aims to elevate this absurd matter to the level of legitimate debate. With major media as his cohort, obviously.

That way there is some more road paved to Police State, should Americans ever be stupid enough again, to give his party enough votes that they can rig a single state and get a 5-4 verdict to install them into power.

Obama has made the moves to ignite the review process, but has not categorically said yet that it needs to happen - as a nation of laws that wants to keep it that way in the future. Hopefully, Cheney has personally angered Obama enough now with the Pro-Torture campaign, that he is looking at the categorical statement. After the horrors of the Bush Regime, we need to cover this as a nation.

user-pic

What is the point of depressing ourselves? Isn't that what you ridiculed, "manipulative self-inflicted injurious behavior"?

It's one thing to rail against corruption in the abstract, another to deal effectively with it in practice.

I was a bit surprised to see Harold Ford Jr. sounding like an apologist when I tuned through whatever show it was part way through that segment. He usually strikes me as pretty smart and reasonable. But we should not confuse cynicism with giving in to some evil other side.

I agree that the "debate" on TV seems misguided, too much focus on trivial little parts of the problems without even a half-good awareness of the larger context.

user-pic

I ridiculed calling suicide "manipulative self-inflicted injurious behavior", like calling civilian deaths "collateral damage" and other sanitized and misleading euphemisms.

user-pic

I know. I'm saying, don't stop there.

What's the line between harsh interrogation and torture? Let's not call all interrogation "torture" unless we make it clear that we truly stand against all interrogation.

BTW, sometimes cumbersome phrases like that are not euphemisms.

user-pic

I think Greenwald is right. Even Cheney calls for transparency on torture and Obama is covering it up.

user-pic

Thanks for looking at this with open eyes, Des. One addition to your post: I don’t think the letter that Harman sent to the CIA actually was condemning the torture. It was advising them to keep the tapes for proof of the written transcripts; nothing more. When it came out after the tape destruction scandal that she had been briefed, she claimed the letter was her questioning of the enhanced interrogation tactics, but if anything, it was implicitly endorsing them (and now, ironically, Pelosi claims she tacitly endorsed the letter).

On major fronts, the Obama administration is not trying to slowly change Bush programs or even let them fade out but is actually escalating them or actively covering them up. I gave them the benefit of the doubt in the Binyam Mohamed case because they initially claimed that the British court was misinterpreting what they were saying. But they have now made it perfectly clear, as someone use to say, that they will withhold intelligence, even of a pending terrorist attack on England, if it releases the unredacted documents that prove what is already known (that Mohamed was illegally kidnapped, tortured and rendered to be tortured by the US). This would be a new low even for Bush/Cheney and I can only imagine the high-pitched screaming against it that would be going on at TPM, Dkos, etc. if it were them.

It’s possible that British officials wanted them to “force” their court to keep it secret but that doesn’t excuse it. Along with offering blanket amnesty to alleged torturers or concealing illegal spying and the like from the public or letting “banks” stick up the people, once we start down that road it’s near impossible to turn back. The idea that even after the Democrats have the presidency and both houses (even a filibuster-proof Senate) that liberals are going to have to march on Washington if we want to see liberal policies enacted (even then doubtful) raises the question- is this still America?

I have been looking for Obama to do that post-partisan thing and reach across the aisles- but to the left, to progressives. It seems like the only change is a little bit of this, if we give up a whole lot of that. The change that’s off the table is any fundamental change. Change that shifts power.

Sync expresses it well, but I still don’t understand the idea that Obama and the Dems are doing their best yet we who elected them have to somehow force them to do what’s right. Unless the “we” here is Goldman-Sachs or Exxon-Mobile, why would the people who have elected this government to bring change have to take to the streets and corner them into acting like they represent us? Do elections mean nothing? Does it take constant dissent, protest and demonstration against everything the pro-change progressive government does to achieve real progress?

user-pic

Well, I guess elections mean nothing if you elect the wrong people or if it's "2 from column A and 1 from column A". The amount of crowd motivation that went into getting Obama elected seems like a once in a generation thing (and it wasn't like he beat McCain/Palin by *that* much) - I can't imagine anyone getting excited enough to march the streets that quick (okay, not in America), except the opposition tea baggers. Besides of which, Obama now controls most of the levers of street activism - he pulled the stuffing out of the 50-state effort, he convinced MoveOn and others to focus their power through him. So he only has to worry about constituencies that will make a difference, and in this case it's his Wall Street buddies who've become the ultimate purpose of government.

user-pic

I'll also wait until some big Obama fans start getting disappointed before I get too serious. No need to wade backwards against the crowd, can get trampled.

user-pic

I think you already been serious. Although I disagree with on on your views. You do make your postings in a very serious manner. It don't get any serious than this.

user-pic

Probably right, though there's still a difference between writing blog diaries, vs. making phone calls, gathering petitions and stomping the halls of Congress.

Leave a comment

Desidero

user-pic

Following: 4
Followers: 58

Posts
Comments & Recommends


Favorites

  • Favorite Books Ack, Books? Who reads books? A boy and his dog, note the graphic.

All Reader Posts
How to use myTPM

Advertise Liberally
Share
Close Social Web Email

"To" Email Address

Your Name

Your Email Address