In Defense of OpenLeft: It's My Party and I'll Cry if I Want To
MM seemed to have good fun getting banned at OpenLeft, writing a blog to misrepresent the reasons for it. (I noted that he could have written Chris or Matt first before posting about it - they do have posted email addresses).
Chris Bowers wrote a response to this, where it became obvious that the ban came not because of a snippy comment about discarding allies, but because of MM providing a bad troll rating (a feature over there where you designate a comment as pure crap - in this case a poster's annoyance about FISA and continuing our torture policy).
Aside from the little tempest in a teapot, there are some more important points.
First, the purpose of OpenLeft and many other blogs is not to uphold First Amendment rights to free speech in whatever fashion. Some may choose open feedback, others do not (Andrew Sullivan is one who doesn't allow any user comment). But a feminist and pro-gay site like Shakesville is unlikely to tolerate "free speech" that denigrates women, and it's not obvious why a progressive site would continue to tolerate speech that denigrates Progressives.
Matt and Chris and the others are not just bloggers - they are activists. They actively participate in democracy by pushing the causes and candidates they think best represent their views, what they call being Progressive, and tied into the "net roots" movement. They campaign and do fund-raising and publicize and come up with new tricks like personal Google Ads, or another one is that your New York vote for Obama could go through a local organization to register as "Progressive for Obama", not just "Generic for Obama".
As Chris made clear yesterday, their purpose is not just to build up the number of seats of people that call themselves "Progressives" - it's to build up a significant enough base to actually get Progressive legislation passed. The Better Democrats initiative was in part to counter the Blue Dogs, who may be Democrats but they certainly don't further Progressive causes to any significant degree - to a large extent they hinder them.
The people at OpenLeft have campaigned for Obama, and one is high up in Obama's transition team. At the same time, they have been clear for well over a year the places where they see Obama as not matching up with a Progressive agenda. This is not mean-spirited or supporting Hillary (they have big differences there as well) - it is simply observing and analyzing reality and describing what they see. The recent appointments, not campaigning for Jim Martin in Georgia, the Rahm Emanuel and Robert Gates appointments, comments by Hildebrand, pushing the Wall Street bailout, throwing the auto unions under the bus, having Rick Warren deliver the invocation - these are not moves that bring joy to Progressives, whatever the excuses. There has been some approval for the Energy selection and a couple of others, but with all the work these guys have done for the party over the last few years, it's not surprising that it feels like only a few crumbs tossed their way, especially with the overt offerings to supposed middle-of-the-road conservatives (if Warren even fits that bill).
It's ironic that MM chose to portray the "throwing away allies" line as the reason for him/her getting banned. If anything, the OpenLeft folks have worked hard at building allies. I'm nowhere as Progressive as they are (it's no secret I supported Hillary and I'm likely quite a bit more hawkish on defense than most at OpenLeft), but I appreciate their clarity and reasonableness on issues, and their hard work in promoting the party nationwide. That they've put their time and money where their mouths are, not just running a blog for chit-chat but one for activism makes me think they should be allies of anyone who's trying to build up the party.
While I don't represent OpenLeft, perhaps if they seem a little less than inclusive to some contrary opinions it's likely that they've seen big-mouth opinions come and go, and they're more interested in the dialogue that leads us back to a share of the power. Call it censorship or illiberalism or whatever you like - it's their Party too and you can cry if you want to.
Update: I've posted about this several times recently, but there for some odd reason there's seems to be little concern about Gates proclaiming that as many as 70,000 troops will stay in Iraq (re-labeled as "support" and "security" troops) later than 2011, while another 20,000 "combat" troops (meaning more "support troops as well?) are slated for Afghanistan in what Gates claims could be a long-term "ideological fight" with terruh. Combine this with Obama recently noting he'd like to close Gitmo within his first 2 years in office...huh? Two years? So much for being in a hurry about change. I wonder when water boarding will stop.
Update 2: And aside from his DoJ position to support of Chiquita execs using torture in the 3rd world & pushing the Mark Rich pardon, Eric Holder has support for Gitmo as legal as another chit against him. Is this the best we can do?
Chris Bowers wrote a response to this, where it became obvious that the ban came not because of a snippy comment about discarding allies, but because of MM providing a bad troll rating (a feature over there where you designate a comment as pure crap - in this case a poster's annoyance about FISA and continuing our torture policy).
Aside from the little tempest in a teapot, there are some more important points.
First, the purpose of OpenLeft and many other blogs is not to uphold First Amendment rights to free speech in whatever fashion. Some may choose open feedback, others do not (Andrew Sullivan is one who doesn't allow any user comment). But a feminist and pro-gay site like Shakesville is unlikely to tolerate "free speech" that denigrates women, and it's not obvious why a progressive site would continue to tolerate speech that denigrates Progressives.
Matt and Chris and the others are not just bloggers - they are activists. They actively participate in democracy by pushing the causes and candidates they think best represent their views, what they call being Progressive, and tied into the "net roots" movement. They campaign and do fund-raising and publicize and come up with new tricks like personal Google Ads, or another one is that your New York vote for Obama could go through a local organization to register as "Progressive for Obama", not just "Generic for Obama".
As Chris made clear yesterday, their purpose is not just to build up the number of seats of people that call themselves "Progressives" - it's to build up a significant enough base to actually get Progressive legislation passed. The Better Democrats initiative was in part to counter the Blue Dogs, who may be Democrats but they certainly don't further Progressive causes to any significant degree - to a large extent they hinder them.
The people at OpenLeft have campaigned for Obama, and one is high up in Obama's transition team. At the same time, they have been clear for well over a year the places where they see Obama as not matching up with a Progressive agenda. This is not mean-spirited or supporting Hillary (they have big differences there as well) - it is simply observing and analyzing reality and describing what they see. The recent appointments, not campaigning for Jim Martin in Georgia, the Rahm Emanuel and Robert Gates appointments, comments by Hildebrand, pushing the Wall Street bailout, throwing the auto unions under the bus, having Rick Warren deliver the invocation - these are not moves that bring joy to Progressives, whatever the excuses. There has been some approval for the Energy selection and a couple of others, but with all the work these guys have done for the party over the last few years, it's not surprising that it feels like only a few crumbs tossed their way, especially with the overt offerings to supposed middle-of-the-road conservatives (if Warren even fits that bill).
It's ironic that MM chose to portray the "throwing away allies" line as the reason for him/her getting banned. If anything, the OpenLeft folks have worked hard at building allies. I'm nowhere as Progressive as they are (it's no secret I supported Hillary and I'm likely quite a bit more hawkish on defense than most at OpenLeft), but I appreciate their clarity and reasonableness on issues, and their hard work in promoting the party nationwide. That they've put their time and money where their mouths are, not just running a blog for chit-chat but one for activism makes me think they should be allies of anyone who's trying to build up the party.
While I don't represent OpenLeft, perhaps if they seem a little less than inclusive to some contrary opinions it's likely that they've seen big-mouth opinions come and go, and they're more interested in the dialogue that leads us back to a share of the power. Call it censorship or illiberalism or whatever you like - it's their Party too and you can cry if you want to.
Update: I've posted about this several times recently, but there for some odd reason there's seems to be little concern about Gates proclaiming that as many as 70,000 troops will stay in Iraq (re-labeled as "support" and "security" troops) later than 2011, while another 20,000 "combat" troops (meaning more "support troops as well?) are slated for Afghanistan in what Gates claims could be a long-term "ideological fight" with terruh. Combine this with Obama recently noting he'd like to close Gitmo within his first 2 years in office...huh? Two years? So much for being in a hurry about change. I wonder when water boarding will stop.
Update 2: And aside from his DoJ position to support of Chiquita execs using torture in the 3rd world & pushing the Mark Rich pardon, Eric Holder has support for Gitmo as legal as another chit against him. Is this the best we can do?
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Nice rebuttal, Desidero. I appreciate it.
December 21, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Look, I do not like people being banned for stating their beliefs. There are bounds of propriety and I forget those from time to time myself, I suppose.
But I grew up listening to Leslie Gore and your title made me laugh.
December 21, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Re your updates, it becomes clearer and clearer that we have elected someone to the right of Hillary and every bit as concerned with protecting his personal political future. It could backfire. He isn't going to be embraced by the right. He's burning bridges with the left. The center mush in Congress won't go out on any limb for him. The public has high hopes now but it is going to be mad as hell if he can't deliver.
December 21, 2008 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is why I was worried about Obama keeping Gates. Gates is not committed to getting American troops out of Iraq and the deal we struck with the Iraqi government is full of loopholes and probably means the permanent massive troop presence that we were all trying to stop with this election.
December 21, 2008 5:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would not to be at all surprised if Obama caves to the military on Iraq. I think he's already running for 2012 positioning himself on the center right. Why else the silliness with Warren? Warren isn't going to help him with economic stimulus or foreign policy.
December 21, 2008 5:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
This based on the huge amount of success the "left" has had these last forty years in getting anything done. Perhaps he is doing things differently because he wants to get things done, not to "burn bridges" with the left. As always, ideologues bite off their nose to spite their face.
December 22, 2008 10:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
I keep hearing this "getting things done" phrase. Seems to me Bush got plenty done. It matters what you get done and who it gets done for and who it gets done to. Since Obama seems determined to compromise with the right, I expect you will get what you want: a Democratic Party that implements Republican solutions more efficiently.
December 22, 2008 11:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
That was the 1990s paradigm you are thinking of since Barack has yet to actually take office. He will do so reading from a new script. Getting progressive things done while co-opting the right's rank and file voters to do it.
Barack shouldn't need to convince the left to support progress, yet they remain some of his biggest obstacles right now. He understands the state of politics better than anyone on the left has since Johnson. He understands how to bridge divides by using the proper positioning. The only people who can really get in the way is the left. Or maybe he anticipated the hue and cry and it using it for strategic purposes.
I am not surprised that many democrats on the far left of the party don't understand Obama's short-term tactics or his longer-term strategies. They are too used to smashing their ideas into people's faces, hoping that one-tenth of what they believe gets done.
Ideology independent of common sense and pragmatism accomplishes nothing worthwhile or sustainable, on the left or right.
December 22, 2008 11:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Mcc is one of those people who post long incoherent “analysis” that include multiple vague unsupported assumptions and sweeping generalizations about “what's really going on”. The real problem he's trying to solve is –why not everyone sees thing exactly as he does—, here’s a hint, and no amount of rationalization will change that reality.
People with this predilection are supremely unsuited for “creating common ground” yet they can be found in all situations that require collective effort, always harping on the need for unity while insisting that the only way to achieve it is for everyone to validate their particular, idiosyncratic framing of the situation and the “pragmatic” solutions they propose.
Habitual obstructionists like this will suck up all the oxygen when given the opportunity, and end up bringing out the worst in others,who eventually become exasperated by their constant need to be the center of attention. They then move to the second stage of their habitual psychodrama, martyr to the greater cause of unity: as in the case of Zell “I didn’t leave the party, the party left me” Miller, and Joe “the nonpartisan center of the universe” Lieberman. Mcc is not unique in his folly. There’s a lot of it going around these days.
December 21, 2008 5:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
You ask:
"Update 2: And aside from his DoJ position to support of Chiquita execs using torture in the 3rd world & pushing the Mark Rich pardon, Eric Holder has support for Gitmo as legal as another chit against him. Is this the best we can do?"
By very definition if Obama has chosen him, he is THE BEST we can do. Because Obama picks appointees, not based on politics or gender, or any other concern, but because that person is THE BEST PERSON for the job. I know that because I learned it reading Greg Sargent and his many Pew polls proving it.
December 21, 2008 7:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
For idle chit chat, you sure cut deep!
December 21, 2008 11:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
They have the right to ban whoever they want. For that reason no one has a legitimate complaint if they are banned.
Matt and Chris are well intentioned and have worked very hard for Democrats, with some success.
I quit posting there (voluntarily) because of their content and their overly defensive responses to comments which disagree.
December 22, 2008 12:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Fair enough - I disagreed a lot with Sirota when he first started posting, not so much (I think) any more. Perhaps they are sensitive, or perhaps they acknowledge the criticism and address it (not so much of that around here) but not to your satisfaction or in a poor fashion.
December 22, 2008 3:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
By banning people? Sounds like the extreme left equivalent of the extreme right's processes.
December 22, 2008 10:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
(I noted that he could have written Chris or Matt first before posting about it - they do have posted email addresses)
*scratches head*
I don't really see a need to prolong this, but I do want to say I did email them first and never got a response.
December 22, 2008 3:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Alright, something went wrong where Chris didn't get it.
In any case, the post at its core isn't about you so much as one common perception that blogs are supposed to be "fair" rather than "pragmatic" (I might as wel use that word). Chris & Matt et al. are trying to be pragmatic about our political fortunes and either win a few close races or push some to set ourselves up for next time, in order to finally push a progressive agenda. They happen to have something called a "blog" rather than a campaign site like Hillpac. But they're focused on candidates and nominees and progressive issues and successful progressive legislation and representation.
If I show up at a Redskins tailgate party and say "football sucks" or "Skins suck", I won't be surprised if I'm tossed out on my ear, free speech or not. Progressives need feedback both on issues (I have a very different interpretation on free trade) and strategy, but at some point it may be obvious that the interaction is non-productive or counter-productive. Free discussion groups on politics are elsewhere.
December 22, 2008 3:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Alright, something went wrong where Chris didn't get it.
Well probably the reason Chris did not get it was because I sent it to Matt.
December 22, 2008 3:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
;-)
December 22, 2008 8:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
The far left kills the messenger on every bit of feedback, which I don't find very progressive. In fact, I find it to be every bit as dogmatic and close-minded as what we have seen on the right these many years.
December 22, 2008 11:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
As a life-long redskins fan, I can assure you there is ALWAYS at least one a-hole cheerleader for Dallas at every party who loudly proclaims "The deadskins suck!"
Seen 'em pelted with cocktail weenies - but NEVER tossed out. It's supposed to be a PARTY - and having rivals is what makes football fun. Sounds like you hang with total dickheads.
December 22, 2008 12:04 PM | Reply | Permalink