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SSDD. Hope was nice while it lasted.
If Obama thinks he can give Rick Warren a platform at the inauguration and still keep hope alive, he's wrong. Between the Hillary bashing I've seen here around the cafe and now this, all the positive feelings I had right after the election are gone. It's back to the same old same old.
http://debbiedoesnothing.blogspot.com/2008/12/good-little-christian-elect.html
http://debbiedoesnothing.blogspot.com/2008/12/good-little-christian-elect.html
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Not to make to fine a point of it, but the invocation nor the benediction by Joseph Lowery is a platform. Neither gets to espouse their point of view. They merely offer up a prayer. Now you can agree or disagree on whether any prayer is needed or wanted. You can agree or disagree with the individuals offering up the prayer. But a platform is not what they have.
And if you think Obama is acting differently than how he said he would act. I don't think you were paying attention to what he was saying
December 18, 2008 2:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
A prayer IS a statement of beliefs and they will be giving it on a platform. Giving the invocation at the inauguration is a high honor. Why should that honor go to Rick Warren?
December 18, 2008 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
how so? If I offer up a prayer to God or any deity the only statement I am making is that I believe in God or another deity. I am not making a statement on how this belief shapes my social or world view. If I say, "may God bless all those here." Have a made a statement of beliefs, other than I believe in God? No. In so many words this is all Warren will be saying, granted I am sure a slightly longer version.
As I said you can totally disagree with this choice, but it is not a platform where he will espouse his moral of social beliefs. Nor will Joseph Lowery espouse his beliefs on social or moral issues in his benediction.
December 18, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
It shouldn't. You are right that the invocation is a high honor. If he wanted to include Warren, he could have chosen a different role, not the flipping invocation.
But I hope you don't blame Obama for the Hillary bashing here at TPM since she was named SOS. How could that be his fault?
December 18, 2008 7:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't blame Obama for the Hillary bashing. But the Hillary bashers are driving people like me out of the Obama tent.
December 18, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please explain how a prayer is a statement of belief. That statement is really out there.
December 18, 2008 10:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obviously, from the length of my original post, I never intended to turn this into a long, well-studied essay.
Elsewhere on TPM today, I commented that I don't think there should be a prayer at all at government functions like the inauguration. Prayer in and of itself is a statement in belief of a higher power, God, Jesus, Allah - whatever figure someone prays to. So that in and of itself alienates atheists like me.
Warren has been very open that he believes gay marriage is the equivalent of incest and pedophilia. He led the fight to pass Proposition 8 in California. By putting him up on that dais and giving him such a position of honor, Obama is legitimizing this man and his hateful beliefs.
There are many, many fine Christian ministers out there who have never said a hateful thing about gays or any other group. They are inclusive rather than exclusive - why not honor one of them?
Wouldn't that send a more positive message? It is possible to be Christian and support gay rights and a woman's right to choose.
We've had 8 years of evangelicals being at the forefront of American politics. Isn't it someone else's turn?
December 18, 2008 11:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rick Warren and everyone at the inauguration is there to honor Obama. Millions of people will be standing in the cold to honor Obama. Thousands are spending hundreds, thousands and tens of thousands to honor Obama. I read in Essence magazine that an extremely kind man spent $1 million dollars to get accomodations for some disadvantged people so that they could come to DC to honor Obama. This is Obama's party, not Rick Warren's, not the gay community, not Libs, not you, not Progressives. Just like it was his party at the convention - remember back then when everyone was shouting about Hillary and Bill speaking?
December 18, 2008 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
How exactly did he get elected? He voted for himself a few million times?
December 18, 2008 11:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
What kind of prayer do you think Warren is going to give? Do you think he is going to stand there and gay-bash?
December 18, 2008 11:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hilary is good person, a good woman a good Senator and will make a good Secretary of State and provide much in this New Administration. Bashing must have taken place before I got here.
Rick Warren is a duplicious sob who voted for McCain and evidently the New Administration wished to give lip service to evangelicals, whatever the hell that word means. Obama appeared on Warren's stage like McCain appeared on the stage in front of the NAACP.
Warren gave him that stage and I guess this is some sort of payback since Warren did not appear in a commercial endorsing Obama.
I have been surfing the web today, and the gays are outraged. So you are not alone in your outrage.
Jees, I hope you do not think me a Hilary basher and I am glad to see you post.
December 18, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
DD, this place was a fight club at one time between the Obama and Hilary factions. It got pretty ugly at times. Now is like an extremely peaceful period and some of the strongest partisans no longer post.
Then when Obama got the nomination, the battles raged between the so-called purists and pragmatists.
This Rick Warren thing has aroused the old fires and controversy between those two camps.
I fall into the purist camp. But I hate the Republicans so bad, I can defer some of my principles for the sake of exterminating or at the minimum suppressing (in a power sense of course) the rogues, criminals, water-carriers and loathsome moral mutants of the Republican Party. Which is to say, 99% of them. So for me the issue is who shall prevail? I want the Democrats to and that means we have to stay united.
December 18, 2008 7:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know Lux, I keep saying this but I did not like President Clinton. But I voted for him twice. I knew everyday that Delay, Lott, Newt and a host of others awoke they would ache all over.
But I have a lot of hope and I am not giving that up. Not yet. He gets a lot of time from me.
December 18, 2008 7:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love it when they ache all over.
I just wish it was in jail cell somewhere, general population.
December 18, 2008 7:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
But Hillary and McCain are practically best friends. Didn't you see the pictures of them on a boat? And McCain can't be a good person because Warren voted for him and we know Warren is not a good person, right? So with all of that is Hillary still a good person?
December 18, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Warren is a tool. Obama is bringing Warren to the White House so that Obama can express his beliefs in opposition to Warren. Check the post about Obama saying he is a fierce supporter of GLBT rights and equality. He may not be ready or willing to agree with gay marriage, but the GLBT aqgenda just reached the moon with that comment from the PE, and in typical American fashion, as soon as Americans get the moon, we groan about not getting to Mars.
December 18, 2008 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Fierce supporter of gay rights" - "I do not support gay marriage." One of these things is not like the other.
December 18, 2008 11:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's taken this stance before. It hasn't changed so you can't claim this as a legitimate concern right now - where was it before Rick Warren?
December 18, 2008 11:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I supported Hillary. That's where my concern was before. I campaigned and voted for Obama because the alternative was McCain.
If McCain had been elected, I would've expected Rick Warren to be up there. That's one of many reasons why I didn't vote for McCain.
December 18, 2008 11:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
The same Hillary that's spoken at Rick Warren's church? The same Hillary who's married to a guy who invited Rick Warren to speak at his Global Initiatives? Who the heck do you think Hillary would've invited over to give a prayer had she been elected? I sincerely doubt it would've just included a short statement from a unitarian universalist and a humanist offering up good vibes.
December 19, 2008 10:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Warren is a tool. Obama is bringing Warren to the White House so that Obama can express his beliefs in opposition to Warren. Check the post about Obama saying he is a fierce supporter of GLBT rights and equality. He may not be ready or willing to agree with gay marriage, but the GLBT aqgenda just reached the moon with that comment from the PE, and in typical American fashion, as soon as Americans get the moon, we groan about not getting to Mars.
December 18, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
First, a couple people on TPM bash Hillary, as if she has ever done anything to warrant criticism. I mean, really!...And then, if that wasn't bad enough, Obama lets Rick Warren speak a few hundred words at the Inauguaration! I know! Why not just put him on the Supreme Court and be done with it!
I am so over him.
December 18, 2008 3:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
cute!
December 18, 2008 10:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
A couple of questions for specifics:
1How is hope dead because Warren is doing the invocation?
2.Whats the "same old same old" that you're referring to and how do you specifically see Obama behaving in that way?
December 18, 2008 5:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
My hope is dead. I'm not speaking for anyone else.
Same old same old is evangelicals being at the forefront of American politics. I'm sick of it.
December 18, 2008 11:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lame duck! ... elect!
December 18, 2008 11:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
The "same old" is everyone retreating to their own little corner of the universe and not engaging in dialogue. Obama is doing exactly what he was elected to do, that is dispel these darn labels that we try to attach to people in order to keep people separated. I hope that Obama talks to everyone and uses everybody. We have had left, right, red, blue,and all of these other idiotic titles for so long that a lot of people seem to have forgotten that we are the United States of America. And don't be too surprised if Obama genuinely tries to be the President of all the people in the United States of America. So please get up off the floor and stop pouting!
December 18, 2008 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Everybody? Aren't we getting two Protestant clergy at the Inauguration? That's everybody? Being inclusive doesn't mean ratifying the "state religion". If he wanted to be inclusive he'd include some other voices.
December 18, 2008 7:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are other voices, but the media, the Left and the gay community chooses not to acknowledge it. Obama has been inclusive throughout his entire campaign and it becomes glaringly obvious when you compare the Repub and Dem convention and also when you watch an Obama/Biden rally vs. McCain/Palin rally. So it is absolute bullshit for the gay community to say Obama is not inclusive, just like it was absolute pure bullshit when the gay community blamed Blacks for the passage of Prop 8. Is this going to be the new fight now? Gays vs. Blacks while the right wingers laugh and point?
December 18, 2008 11:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
For the record, I am not a member of the gay community. I'm someone who cares about human rights.
Listening to voices from all points of view - good thing. Giving people like Warren a seat at the table - I support that. Finding ways we can all work together - yes.
Inviting a hate monger to speak at the inauguration - not good.
December 18, 2008 11:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are other voices. You appear to be blinded by your obsession with Rick Warren. Remember the economy, the War in Iraq...those are the things that Americans are most concerned about. I assure you it's not Rick Warren who has the right to express his religious beliefs.
December 19, 2008 1:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Clearly the Obama Administration in its first -25 days is a complete shambles!
December 18, 2008 5:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why don't we all just shut down the laptops and reconvene in time for the 2012 elections. Obama is obviously a loser. He apparently promised that gay marriage was a done deal by the middle of Dec. He broke his promise. We're done with him.
December 18, 2008 6:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
:-)
December 18, 2008 8:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thats right, throw the bum out now before he can really mess this country up! The PUMAs were right all along! :)
December 18, 2008 10:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why does your open-mindedness not allow you to accept that some people will be angry about this? Obama will not make every one happy. He acknowledged it. Why can't his supporters do the same? No one is saying he's a loser. It's not that hard to find someone who would not rile the left like Rick Warren. He made a poor, un-inclusive choice for the pastor at the convocation and he deserves to take heat from the people who are lviid about it.
December 19, 2008 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Aretha Franklin, best known for her hit song RESPECT, will be singing on 1/20/09. Obama is doing exactly what the song advocates: giving people respect. By choosing Warren AND Lowery, Obama is showing respect to two, often differing, groups to Americans: evangelicals & glbt folks.
Obama has long made it clear that he intends to be the president of all Americans... that is a welcome break from the 8 horror-filled years of GWB. Obama understands he needs the support of Americans -- not some narrow faction thereof -- if we are to solve the huge problems facing our country. It is time for us to act like grown-ups instead of a bunch of brats fighting in the backseat of the family car.
December 19, 2008 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Right, Merlot. We bitched and moaned for eight years about Bush and cohorts being blind to anyone not totally loyal to them, then we start carping when Obama does the opposite.
Next thing you know, the new administration will have to be given a loyalty test by the bloggers.
The solution is simple. According to Debbie, inviting a hate-monger to sit at the table is okay as long as he doesn't speak. So, we simply convince Warren to mime his invocation.
Re Hillary: Life is filled with disappointments, if we obsess about all of them, we miss a lot of wonderful opportunities.
December 19, 2008 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
My carping is about all the people here who are blindly loyal to Obama. He's not Jesus Christ incarnate. He's capable of making mistakes and his supporters need to speak up when he makes one.
It was Republicans refusal to hold Bush accountable that led us into the mess we're in.
I never said Warren shouldn't speak when he's sitting at the table. I said he shouldn't be standing on the table speaking.
December 19, 2008 11:03 PM | Reply | Permalink