OBAMA'S AFGHANISTAN: IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK
For some time now, I've been studying the war in Afghanistan, most intently during the months leading up to President Obama's November win, and since that time. I haven't written about Afghanistan yet, but I've been thinking about it a great deal, most especially because members of my family will most likely be called upon to fight there.
(Two have already been, once each. One is now retired Army Special Forces and the other is active-duty SF. Another nephew is also active-duty army who did a long dangerous hitch in Iraq and will most likely wind up doing at least one in Afghanistan. My son and another nephew are still in their Ready Reserve status and could be called up at any time and deployed there.)
Since fresh new troops have been sent in recent weeks, culminating in a major push in the Helmand River Valley by the Marines that began yesterday, I thought it was a good time to share my perspective, especially since, as a Marine mom whose son did two combat deployments to Iraq and whose nephews did five more, I opposed that war, even back in the days when it was a mere glimmer in the mad eyes of Bush and his oilman armchair warrior cronies.
There are many good peace activists who are absolutely opposed to any troop buildup in Afghanistan for any reason whatsoever, and who believe, categorically, that we should pull everybody out RIGHT NOW, as we appear to be doing in Iraq. (Or will have done, by 2012.)
They believe the war is unwinnable and that sending more troops signifies that this is "another Vietnam," as I've seen some call it, or "another Russian-type situation" as have others.
I disagree.
In order to explain why, I'm going to provide as many links as I can that will divide up this piece into several sections: I. Bush's Afghanistan II. Obama's Promises III. The New Generals' New Strategy and IV. Obama's Afghanistan.
(Note: It will probably be the length of a magazine article by the time I'm done, so if you're in a rush right now, you might bookmark this or otherwise return to it when you have a little time and want to read it without skimming through in a hurry.)
I. Bush's Afghanistan
Everybody knows that Afghanistan was Bush's Forgotten War before they'd even caught Bin Laden. (Oh yeah. They still haven't caught him.) Donald Rumsfeld was famous for whining that "there aren't any good targets" to bomb in Afghanistan, for one thing, and for another, the real war they always wanted to fight, since 1991 in fact, was Iraq.
Yes, our forces, helped by the Brits and others, kicked al Qaeda butt and installed their own guy in Kabul, and I don't take anything away from the bravery of our troops who were the point of the spear in those battles. There is no such thing as an "easy war." Getting shot at is getting shot at, and there's nothing easy about it unless you're using paint guns, or like maybe Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and All Their Enablers, your feverish imaginations.
But by 2002, Bush and Co. were already training their short attention spans on Iraq, and in no time at all, they had drained troops, materiel, helicopters, planes, artillery--everything the guys needed to root out al Qaeda and the Taliban and secure that population, thus protecting us from their unholy alliance--(you know, the one that brought us 9/11 in the first place), out of Afghanistan and into Iraq, where it stayed for the next seven years.
You can't imagine how tough it was on those who were left to fight this war with NOTHING. Stuck in miserable little shanty-outposts on isolated mountain peaks; no showers, no phones, virtually no air support and scanty artillery--for months, under fire daily, daily, daily; it's been HELL.
Because so much of our own attention was preoccupied with that illegal, bloody, endless war in Iraq, we failed to take into account just what life was like for the troops who DID deploy to Afghanistan. (And understand, many of them had already done one or more deployments to Iraq before they even showed up in those remote mountain outposts.)
The New York Times has done an extraordinary job of NOT forgetting Afghanistan, and its intrepid little cadre of war reporters and their cameramen/women have traipsed into some of the worst areas of fighting to chronicle for us what it has been like, sometimes providing riveting slideshows and audio shows of firefights.
Also to be commended is Sebastian Junger (who wrote The Perfect Storm), and who has made numerous journeys deep into the bowels of the beast for Vanity Fair and Outdoor magazines, with his photographer, Tim Hetherington, for which they have won numerous prestigious journalism and news-photography awards.
And I would be remiss if I neglected to mention Richard Engel from NBC news, whose work has been unparallelled.
Here are some of the best articles and photo essays I've found:
*"G.I.'s in Remote Post have Weary Jobs, Drawing Fire," C.J. Chivers
*"Turning Tables, U.S. Troops Ambush Taliban With Swift and Lethal Results," C.J. Chivers
*"Pinned Down, a Sprint to Escape Taliban Zone," C.J. Chivers
"In Bleak Afghan Outpost, Troops Slog On," C.J. Chivers
*"Return to the Valley of Death," Sebastian Junger
(For several links to Tim Hetherington's stunning photo essays, look here.)
One of the best pieces appeared in New York Times Magazine ("A Change in MIssion" by Kristen Henderson) just a couple weeks ago, but I will link to that in a moment because it deals with how the war is beginning to change with a new commander-in-chief, and the challenges the junior officers in the field (lieutenants and captains) are facing, implementing those changes.
Right now, we're talking about Bush's War.
This war, for the men and women who have been ABANDONED for the past seven years while they slogged on and slogged on, has been impossible to fight. They haven't had vehicles, or helicopters, or enough troops or artillery, or simple things like a place to eat. They haven't had decent supplies of ANYTHING, and for the men (combat units are still all-male) stranded on these remote outposts, the firefights with Taliban number in the hundreds.
One unit I read about has been in place for about six months and have so far dealt with FIVE HUNDRED firefights.
You do the math.
It has been piss-poor, the way these brave men have been treated. Rotten. Miserable. SHAMEFUL.
And the U.S. military is not to be blamed for it, because they've done the best they can with this groaning responsibility thrust upon them by Bush and Co--to fight two wars. There was once an old sit-com that came out during the Carter years called, "Carter Country," which featured a (very) small-town Southern sheriff's department. They had this fat, worthless little mayor who was forever getting the little town into some kind of dire straits and then turning to the sheriff or his longsuffering aide and waving his fingers, blithely grinning and saying, "Handle it, handle it!"
This is what the military's boss did to them for eight outrageous years. Bogged them down in intractible wars, then figuratively grinned and said, "Handle it, handle it!"
(While all the time, it must be remembered, boasting of maybe bombing Iran or North Korea.)
And while fighting the Forgotten War, troops also had to deal with regular guerilla-war problems:
*"In Afghanistan, Terrain Rivals Taliban as Enemy," Candace Rondeaux
*"Afghan Officials Aided in Attack on U.S. Soldiers," Eric Schmidt; (in which nine American troops were killed and 27 were injured, just two weeks before going home following a 15-month deployment)
*"Afghan Firefight Shows Challenge for US Troops," Chris Brummitt, writing for the AP
Every time I would read one of these articles, I would get so angry I would shake from head to foot. Nobody loved using the troops as a photo-op backdrop or weepy speech-stuffer better than George W. Bush.
And nobody--EVER--abused our troops worse.
II. Obama's Promises
Understand that, whenever I would read about the godawful situation in Afghanistan, I would read a wish-list of what would be needed to fix the situation, from troops on the ground, from the generals, from aide workers, from diplomats, from Aghans themselves. And nearly always, they would say, "But that will probably never happen."
Then Obama was elected president.
One of the first things he did was order up a full review of what would be needed from General Petraeus, and he gave the general two months to come up with it. Petraeus is a highly-educated man who has surrounded himself with military advisors who, like himself, have doctorates or otherwise a scholarly background. He combines this perspective with on-the-ground savvy when he conducts these studies.
And the plan his task force came up with was just exactly what all those people had been saying would be needed.
The only difference is that THIS time, someone was listening.
And what many of the doubters don't seem to realize is that increasing the numbers of troops in-country is only PART of that strategy. It's not like Vietnam, when we simply escalated and escalated and escalated our occupying forces, nor is it like the Soviet Union, who endeavored to fight a conventional war when it sent its troops into Afghanistan.
This is different.
Two of the best essays I've found that explain the difference, in proper historial context, with the new strategy are:
*"Graveyard Myths," Peter Bergen
*"A Manhunt or a Vital War?" Robert D. Kaplan
What sets Obama's strategy apart from Bush's is that, first of all, there IS a strategy.
During the worst of the Forgotten-War days, commanders on the ground complained that there was, quite simply, NO STRATEGY for dealing with Afghanistan.
This comes as no surprise to those of us who watched Iraq implode under the no-strategy Bush Rule there, but in the case of Afghanistan, when it is so desperately important that we not allow al Qaeda to resettle into their comfy little Taliban homes and plot anew, unbothered, to kill Americans--this was just unforgivable, and frustrating beyond belief for the military that was tasked with the no-strategy war.
Obama's careful, considered approach has been dramatically different because there IS a strategy and there IS an exit plan. No, you can't put a timeframe on it, not yet. But it will begin to take shape over the course of the next year.
The strategy includes, yes, more troops in the short-term. This is necessary not just to relieve the beleagured mountain-guys who've been stuck in Nowhereland for years now, but to throw out the Taliban in areas where it's been operating with impunity, areas such as the rich Helmand River Valley area, where poppy-farming supports the opium trade that keeps al Qaeda in operation.
We just did not have enough troops to spread around that enormous country, at least, not in force, and not in a way that they could STAY once they cleared out an area. The local populations do not like the Taliban, by and large, but they fear them greatly, and with good reason. They need protection, and we have not been able to provide it for them.
But beyond that, Obama's plan calls on a gigantic influx of civilians to help build this new Afghanistan--not just billions to bury in no-bid contract building projects, but actual civil servants to help teach Afghans how to take care of themselves.
For two quick, one-page assessments of this strategy, here are editorials from the New York Times and the Washington Post on this subject that appeared in March--before Pakistan had even begun clamping down on ITS side of the border, affectively creating a vise to trap terrorists:
*"The Price of Realism," Washington Post
*"The Remembered War," New York Times
I'm going to get into more detail about the new strategy in part IV, but for now, I want to draw attention to the new guys who are going to be called upon to implement the new strategy:
III. The New Generals' New Strategy
There was, in the beginning, some worry about Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the new U.S. Commander in Afghanistan, who comes from a top-secret Special Forces background and whose responsibilities have been, to date, to track down terrorists and kill them. So there was some concern that he wouldn't "get" Obama's so-called "soft power" approach.
And yes, there are, historically, some generals like, say, Patton, who are bad-ass bastards all the way through, my-way-or-the-highway types to whom the troops are pretty much chess pieces to be shoved around on a board, damn the casualties.
Then there are the Dwight D. Eisenhowers, the generals who learn as they go and adjust their approaches accordingly, to whom each and every one of those troops is a flesh-and-blood human being and somebody's son or daughter.
Which type of general do you think a man like Barack Obama would favor?
This reminds me of a funny story. (Yes, really.) It's been my observation that some people are in awe of generals, maybe a little bit afraid of them. They seem to think that becoming a general is some sort of superhuman accomplishment, reserved only for the choicest among us.
Now, most of you know I've got a brother-in-law who retired at the rank of Brigadier General of the U.S. Army Special Forces. Both his sons are active-duty army and both are captains now with their own company commands.
His sister, my sister-in-law, Kay, is the mother of a Marine who served three combat deployments to Iraq as an enlisted man. Even though he is no longer active-duty, she still volunteers every Sunday afternoon of her life with the USO out at DFW airport. One of the things they do is see off deploying troops, providing Care packages for them with things like phone cards and edible goodies.
One time, the deploying troops were accompanied by a general who was also deploying.
Kay asked the other volunteers if anybody had given the general a Care package.
They looked at her as if she'd suddenly sprouted horns and said, "Well, NO. He's...he's a GENERAL."
Cocking her head, she said, "So what? He's just somebody's dumb old big brother."
With that, she marched up to the general and asked if he'd like a Care package and if there was anything she could do for him.
Delighted with the package, he thanked her and said, "Ma'am, as long as I'm here, my troops will think I'm trying to keep an eye on them. They've got enough on their minds as it is, and I don't want them to be intimidated by my presence. If you had just someplace I could wait in private, I'd appreciate it."
She found him an empty office, and he gratefully waited for the plane to arrive.
It's easy, when surrounded by Brass, to get "intimidated" and forget that, really, these guys are just somebody's dumb old big brothers.
Bush was always a little bit in awe of his generals.
And while Obama has the deep respect that their rank and experience affords them, he does not lose sight of what he wants to accomplish and how he wants things to change in Afghanistan. There is no way he'd hand it over to somebody like, say, Patton, when what he really needs is an Eisenhower. (Yeah, that's a very broad metaphor. Please don't provide a lengthy history lesson on the two generals in the comment section, 'kay? Let's stick to this war for now.)
A couple of quotes given by Gen. McChrystal to the Wall Street Journal are instructive in that vein, I think, in how he has changed his view of warfare to suit the new circumstance:
After watching the U.S. try and fail for years to put down insurgencies in both countries, Gen. McChrystal said he believes that to win in Afghanistan, "You're going to have to convince people, not kill them.
"Since 9/11, I have watched as America tried to first put out this fire with a hammer, and it doesn't work," he said last week at his home at Fort McNair in Washington. "Decapitation strategies don't work."
Soundbite-quotes make good copy, but McChrystal is backing up his words with his actions, according to this piece in the New York Times:
The new American commander in Afghanistan has been given carte blanche to handpick a dream team of subordinates, including many Special Operations veterans, as he moves to carry out an ambitious new strategy that envisions stepped-up attacks on Taliban fighters and narcotics networks.
The extraordinary leeway granted the commander, Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, underscores a view within the administration that the war in Afghanistan has for too long been given low priority and needs to be the focus of a sustained, high-level effort.
General McChrystal is assembling a corps of 400 officers and soldiers who will rotate between the United States and Afghanistan for a minimum of three years. That kind of commitment to one theater of combat is unknown in the military today outside Special Operations, but reflects an approach being imported by General McChrystal, who spent five years in charge of secret commando teams in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The new general's first task will be to report back, in 60 days from now, to Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, an assessment of his mission and plans for implementing President Obama's new strategy.
So...Just what IS that strategy:
IV. Obama's Afghanistan
The first thing you have to understand about Obama's Afghanistan is that it is not just the MILITARY'S Afghanistan--this is a civilian undertaking, every bit as much.
And they are heading over to the country right along with the military. According to the Washington Post:
A civilian "surge" of hundreds of additional U.S. officials in Afghanistan would accompany the already approved increase in U.S. troop levels there under a new Afghanistan-Pakistan strategy being completed at the White House, according to administration officials...
Officials said the proposed strategy includes a more narrowly focused concentration on security, governance and local development in Afghanistan, with continued emphasis on rule-of-law issues and combating the narcotics trade. U.S. and British troops in the southern part of the country will attempt to oust entrenched Taliban forces, with an influx of reinforcements enabling them to retain control -- and help protect enhanced civilian operations -- until greatly expanded and sufficiently trained Afghan army and police forces are able to take their place.
It's not just us sending more folks from the State Dept., either:
In addition to increasing its own civilian component, the administration seeks better coordination among the many other governments and international and nongovernmental agencies operating in Afghanistan, often with different rules and objectives. The strategy proposals include a strengthening of the United Nations as a clearinghouse and overall coordinator of nonmilitary efforts, including the appointment of veteran U.S. diplomat Peter W. Galbraith as deputy to Norwegian Kai Eide, the head of the U.N. mission in Afghanistan.
"This is a big deal," said a senior U.S. official, speaking on the condition of anonymity before the appointment is announced. "The Bush administration undermined and ignored the U.N., and we minimized our influence. But imagine, with all the money we pay and American troops on the line, not to have a senior person" at the top level of the U.N. effort. A U.N. official said Secretary General Ban Ki-moon will announce Galbraith's appointment in "a matter of days."
In another piece, also by Karen De Young of the Post, the State Dept. has already begun to recruit diplomats from among its ranks for the new postings:
The State Department will significantly expand its presence in regional capitals in western and northern Afghanistan in coming months, part of the Obama administration's plans for a "surge" in civilians going to the country.
"As part of our expanding efforts in Afghanistan," Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said in a cable sent Saturday to all Foreign Service officers, "the Department intends to create 14 additional FS positions in Herat and Mazar-e-Sharif."
The cable called the jobs "priority" assignments and "new opportunities" for diplomats about to bid on new postings for later this year.
Even Bob Woodward, no doubt working on another war book, seems to get the message, in a lengthy piece for the Post this past weekend:
National security adviser James L. Jones told U.S. military commanders here last week that the Obama administration wants to hold troop levels here flat for now, and focus instead on carrying out the previously approved strategy of increased economic development, improved governance and participation by the Afghan military and civilians in the conflict.
The message seems designed to cap expectations that more troops might be coming, though the administration has not ruled out additional deployments in the future. Jones was carrying out directions from President Obama, who said recently, "My strong view is that we are not going to succeed simply by piling on more and more troops."
"This will not be won by the military alone," Jones said in an interview during his trip. "We tried that for six years." He also said: "The piece of the strategy that has to work in the next year is economic development. If that is not done right, there are not enough troops in the world to succeed."
But what ABOUT the military? Do THEY get it? What about the 4,000 Marines that poured into the Helmand River Valley yesterday and today? Did anyone send THEM the memo?
Apparently, yes.
Rajiv Chandrasekaran writes for the Post:
State has promised to have a dozen more diplomats and reconstruction experts working with the Marines, but only by the end of the summer.
To compensate in the interim, the Marines are deploying what officers here say is the largest-ever military civilian-affairs contingent attached to a combat brigade -- about 50 Marines, mostly reservists, with experience in local government, business management and law enforcement. Instead of flooding the area of operations with cash, as some units did in Iraq, the Marine civil affairs commander, Lt. Col. Curtis Lee, said he intends to focus his resources on improving local government.
Once basic governance structures are restored, civilian reconstruction personnel plan to focus on economic development programs, including programs to help Afghans grow legal crops in the area. Senior Obama administration officials say creating jobs and improving the livelihoods of rural Afghans is the key to defeating the Taliban, which has been able to recruit fighters for as little as $5 a day in Helmand.
In meetings with his commanders at forward operating bases over the past three days, Nicholson acknowledged that focusing on governance and population security does not come as naturally to Marines as conducting offensive operations, but he told them it is essential that they focus on "reining in the pit bulls."
"We're not going to measure your success by the number of times your ammunition is resupplied. . . . Our success in this environment will be very much predicated on restraint," he told a group of officers from the 2nd Battalion, 8th Marines on Sunday. "You're going to drink lots of tea. You're going to eat lots of goat. Get to know the people. That's the reason why we're here."
Drinking tea and eating goat may not seem like what Marines signed up for, but you would be surprised. They're there to protect the people, and if this is the best way to go about it, then so be it.
And for those who worry about the fact that Obama has sent more troops and fear he may send more, you need to realize that he's going about this with great care and thought. Richard A. Oppel, Jr. wrote this for the Times:
The 21,000 additional American troops that Mr. Obama authorized after taking office in January almost precisely matches the original number of additional troops that President George W. Bush sent to Iraq two years ago. It will bring the overall American deployment in Afghanistan to more than 60,000 troops. But Mr. Obama avoided calling it a surge and resisted sending the full reinforcements initially sought by military commanders.
Instead, Mr. Obama chose to re-evaluate troop levels over the next year, officials said. The Obama administration has said that the additional American commitment has three main strategies for denying havens for the Taliban and Al Qaeda: training Afghan security forces, supporting the weak central Afghan government in Kabul and securing the population.
Even the manner in which the military is deploying is being adjusted to Obama's strategy. Consider this from the Post on how the 82nd Airborne is reconfiguring its troops:
The extra 4,000 U.S. troops, expected to deploy in early fall, are to fill that gap. In a sign of the new importance the administration is placing on the mission, a brigade of the Army's vaunted 82nd Airborne Division is being broken up into 10-to-14-member advisory teams, a Pentagon official said. Until now, the military has relied heavily on inexperienced National Guardsmen to fill out the teams.
"The change couldn't be more dramatic," said retired Lt. Col. John A. Nagl, president of the Center for a New American Security, a nonpartisan defense think tank. "The 82nd Airborne Division is the nation's shock force."
"We want to move as aggressively and as quickly as possible to build up the Afghan national army," one administration official said. "It's much cheaper in the long run to train Afghans to fight" than to send U.S. forces "halfway around the world."
And finally, what do all these policy changes mean to the men and women on the ground who are charged with implementing them?
I'm not talking about the generals. I'm talking about the enlisted men and women, the first and second lieutenant platoon leaders, the captain and major company commanders--these are the TRUE tip of the spear, and if THEY don't get it, NOBODY does.
This is what makes Kristen Henderson's article, "A Change in Mission," which appeared in the New York Times Magazine on June 21, so fascinating to me.
Henderson is married to a Navy chaplain. Navy chaplains do not always spend their time in which they are deployed on-board gigantic ships. They also deploy with combat Marines and minister to those guys right in the thick of things. Henderson is, herself, no slouch as a war correspondent--I suspect that the Marines cooperate far more with a female war correspondent if she's married to a Navy chaplain who has, himself, deployed. They realize that she speaks their language and understands their world better than most.
For this piece, she was front and center on one of the many isolated outposts that our soldiers and Marines have defended so bravely and with so little support for so many years.
Her writing makes you feel the sweat and the fear.
First Lieutenant Arthur Karell, who she profiles in the piece, is Harvard-educated and was Wall Street-employed before he enlisted in the Marines. During his deployment, he has seen a great deal of combat under hardscrabble conditions, but it doesn't stop there. He also spends much of his time sitting in dirt floors with villagers, drinking sweet tea and talking to them about what they need, what they expect, what are their complaints, and how he can help.
One of his biggest frustrations was that, once they pulled out and headed for home, all their hard work in securing the area would be lost--which is why he was elated when, after Obama was elected, his unit got the news that reinforcements would be replacing them, this time with the helicopters as well as civilian support that they had not had during his time in Afghanistan.
He told Henderson that, just seeing what one platoon could accomplish all by itself, he had great hope that with the new strategy, some real change might take place in that country.
Which is one of many reasons that, even though his old Wall Street firm thew him a party when his enlistment ended and offered him his old job back--he chose to re-enlist instead.
This is a man who, only a year before, had ordered his men to fix bayonets on their rifles--because they were expecting the combat to be that close, deadly, and terrifying.
If a young man like that--only 26 years old--can have that kind of hope, that kind of optimism in the fact of President Obama's new strategy for Afghanistan, then I don't hardly see how the rest of us can fail him.
Let's just give this thing a chance to work. Those guys who've been stranded forgotten on top of remote mountaintop outposts for eight years now deserve at least that much.
If it fails, it fails.
But it is worth at least a chance.
It's all our guys ever asked of us, and it's the least we owe them, and the least we owe the people of Afghanistan.













Deanie - brilliant post. I like your insight on the current strategy especially.
The only thing I would say is that there are people (including myself) who would like to leave Afganistan right now for reasons other than how winnable this war is. A lot of people I know think the US has no place sending troops to other countries and our Founders didn't want any political alliances with anyone, only economic and trade relations.
But we're there, so let's win the war and let's leave Afganistan a success and a shining symbol of what's possible.
"If it fails, it fails. But it is worth at least a chance" - exactly right!
July 2, 2009 8:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Deanie: Brilliant post, well researched and interesting.
I strongly suspect that the differences you cite between our operation and the Soviet operation in Afghanistan are less significant on the ground than we currently believe. But time will tell, and I'm impressed both by the seriousness of the American presence there and by the belief the soldiers have in their mission.
Of course, that's exactly what the Taylor and Westmoreland missions in Vietnam were like.
July 3, 2009 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would hope that every 26 year old has hope. If you don't have hope at 26 I don't know when you get it. So how long have armies been trying to "win" in Afghanistan - 1000 years or so?
Send the 26 year olds back to Detroit and LA and West Virginia and New Orleans and let them figure out a way to deliver hope here at home. Let them become primary care docs and pediatricians. Let them serve in communities in West Texas. Let them work to save the 18,000 Americans who die every year from inadequate healthcare while we squander our treasure abroad.
July 2, 2009 8:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hear! Hear!
July 3, 2009 4:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
But Bluebell, you have to understand that a 26-year old who's been "Daddy" to 40 young men for more than a year, trying to keep them alive and get them home, trying to understand a foreign culture, and engaging in hundreds of firefights is not a typical 26-year old.
He is 26 going on 66. He is a hundred years older than anybody else in the room. And if, after all he's been through and all he's seen, he can still have hope, then we owe him that much for his sacrifices.
July 3, 2009 8:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Deanie. I have family there. Clearing IED's and such, ok? I also have no rosy views about the Taliban. And I very much hope your family comes home or otherwise stays safe and sound and happy.
That said, this piece wasn't just full of magic wishes, it was war romance, done in an emotionally manipulative way, and horrifically arrogant.
All this stuff about how we should have more troops, staying longer, in Afghanistan because "It's all our guys ever asked of us, and it's the least we owe them, and the least we owe the people of Afghanistan."/b>
Well, that's crap. And you really really need to quit projecting your views on the war onto all the troops. They don't all think this, and even if they did, there are other reasons to extend and expand wars than the desires of the frontline troops.
But when you stick it on this one 26 year old kid, and start babbling about how he's 100 years older than any of us? That's the sort of addled talk people too long in the military give out. It's horseshit and it needs to be shown the door. Some kid comes out of Wall Street, he's 26, he and his guys get shot to shit, but he decides to go back, and because of this decision, we should continue a war? Because of the emotional and thinking processes of this kid, we all gotta go back? Sorry. That's not sensible Deanie, and in fact, it's wandering pretty close to the other edge.
What we "owe" him? We "owe" the troops an extended war, for "sacrificing" for us??? Do you even hear the inhumanity and the arrogance of that? Check me if I'm wrong, but there's going to be an awful lot of killing going on in Afghanistan. I like all the "protect the aid workers" talk, but let's not fool ourselves. We'll be killing people, enemies, innocents, and those in-between. And when it comes to killing more foreigners, and their families, I really think there are moral issues in play slightly larger than whatever motivates some 26 year old. 100 years older than the rest of us at 26? Wow.
And as far as the personal insult this offers up to everyone else, you probably don't even see it anymore, eh? Guess me and mine are some other species altogether eh? Emergency doctors, midwives, teachers, farmers. It's not enough to support the troops, now you've got 'em as... magic.
What a load of war shit.
The rest of your piece is just perfume on empty phrases - fragrant on top, ignorant as a log beneath. McChrystal is to be compared more to Ike than Patton. Why? No particular reason, and all that torture stuff is to be erased, unmentioned. It's just because Deanie likes Obama, and Obama would like Ike, so... McChrystal's more like Ike.
And we're gonna root out the poppy business, eh? That's a centerpiece of the effort, huh? Please do tell me you have some evidence that the US has any positive track record in this regard, as opposed to ginning up the supply, and taking a percent. Really. Evidence, not just repetition of a phrase please. Show me that this works, in SE Asia, in Latin America, or in Afghanistan itself these past 7 years.
Local government. We're gonna support local government. You really might want to discuss the nature of the guys we're supporting now, then add in the poppy trade and warlords, and then tell me how that's gonna happen. Lots of tea, I guess. You don't even get how brutal, how ignorant that sounds coming from American mouths at this point in time, do you? It's like self-awareness has fled the field.
Deanie, try this. Your nation - and yes, its troops - were at the center, they were the deliverymen, for a society-wrecking war which killed hundreds of thousands of people, was started based on a lie, involved perhaps the worst example yet of "nation-building," and which just this very week sees US troops backing away from the scene of the crime - to jubilation from the citizenry.
And yet you seem to believe that now is just the time when your moral standing and amazing international sensitivity is so well-regarded, has been proven so convincingly, that we should all just crank up the perfume and hype around yet another war in the region. I donno about you, but if I'd just been involved with killing tens and hundreds of thousands, even the slightest acquaintance with humility would make me shut up and sit down and stop for just a moment going on about how this new war is gonna work and why we need to be killing X and teaching Y and SURE MUHAMMED, WE SHOULD BE HERE WITH GUNS AND DRONES AND ALL BECAUSE WE OWE IT TO SOME 26 YEAR OLD WHO LEFT WALL STREET.
Do you get how arrogant this is? How the ONLY thing that seems to matter in your piece - really - is your love of the military people? Generals who love cookies. Kids who've sacrificed. With their 100 year eyes. The true tip of the spear. As though the rest of the world id dough, and Deanie's bakin' cookies. Who gives a shit what they want? We talked to the kids and they wanna fight some more.
Reread the Henderson piece, Deanie. It doesn't say what you think it says. Strip off the perfume she's dosed it with and what do you see? Did you notice the troops didn't even know the entire village had up and left? But you're confident the US is gonna be able to do hearts and minds, when they hadn't even noticed a village missing? Did you notice the troops had inconclusive discussions about who the Taliban even were, and what motivated them? Yet... we're gonna be able to sort out civilian from Taliban. Did you notice the troops are both rooting out poppies... but then standing around the local Hash Hut making small talk? So how's that gonna work? How're you gonna get thee guys stopped, and yet be their friends? Did you notice the troops couldn't even describe what their relationship was to the Afghani Government?
And did you notice they'd lost a 1/3 of their men in 6 months?
All this plus cookies for a General.
July 3, 2009 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
We have one ace in the hole. The Taliban and Al Qaeda are even worse at governing and bigger a-holes than Bush and Cheney. It's not like fighting the Vietnamese where half our "allies" in the South considered Ho Chi Minh to be their George Washington. Hell the Taliban are mostly from Pakistan and Al Qaeda are mostly Arabs. It's not like they're a homegrown insurgency.
July 3, 2009 1:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
"It's front-loaded withdrawal," as one retired Pakistani general described it last night.
Personally, I suspect Obama's thinking is that if he can get Pashtunistan to calm down for a couple of years and offer a teeny bit of opportunity for a different life there, that that will drive a stake into the allure of jihadism worldwide, which is already losing its steam. It's not really a naive attempt to remake Afghanistan, that's just the b.s. agitprop that has to go along with it. Also seems to me that thinking is mainly driven by thoughts about the future stability of Iraq and Iran, get jihadism down to a minimal level for a couple of years. Certainly, I don't see Obama being such a romantic about this, he isn't a romantic type, he only preaches romanticism in his speeches.
July 3, 2009 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
oops, I shoulda said: "he's worried about the stability of Iraq and Iran and Pakistan."
July 3, 2009 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed 100% that our real aims are likely one hell of a lot less romantic, and agreed 100% with Mark that the Taliban, al Qaeda and the jihadists are not invincible.
This piece just really irritated me, but mostly for other reasons. If you went by this piece, you'd have to conclude that the American war-related learning curve had just flat-lined, and we're back to the Afghan version of being greeted with garlands - namely, having tea. My, how Imperial.
How about this, before we head off with our picnic basket full of Easy-To-Read-Lessons on Democracy and Proper Agricultural Production? First we take some goddamn responsibility for Iraq. And show some humility. A million or so dead... and we've f*cked off to the next romance in the hills? Why? Because OUR side elected a new political boss? Well excuse me, but what arrogance. Deanie seems to think everything smells ever so much better with Obama, and waves him around over death and destruction like he's some new kinda Glade.
In addition, to speak frankly, if I'm an Afghan or Iraqi or Canadian or British, then f*ck that 26 year old Wall Street asshole that just led his guys into complete failure. Make decisions based on HIM? Or because somebody thinks he's got 100 year eyes? This is the voice of American jihad - but it doesn't even recognize itself, because it opposed Bush.
America needs to regain some standing to speak about how to fight wars and win peace and build democracy. For starters, it has to recognize it has little or no credibility on this stuff anymore. Not when you're standing on the bodies. To not get that is to live in Disneyland. And until there's some War Crimes Trials then that credibility is gonna remain pretty frigging low, when you start going on about the great things your wars are gonna bring. Wanna back the Afghani War, because your guy's in and he's great and good? Well, cool, that's your call. But you wanna yammer on about how you're bringing democracy and justice and all? Then start by going back and putting a few of those shit-eating dogs who started Iraq, ran Iraq, and butchered and stole from Iraq ON TRIAL. THEN CONVICT 'EM. AND THEN SEND 'EM TO PRISON.
After all, you war-fighters are all about the practical, right? Talk is cheap, it's all about results, right? Well, let's see some jail-time for the criminals, and then we'll talk about Afghanistan. And yep, that includes officers and troops, because torture and death and rape and theft had a pretty good run there.
Until those basic things are done, then it is incumbent upon us all to just shut up about wars to bring democracy and justice to the world for at least a few years. Or do we now have some new way of bringing hundreds of thousands of people back to life? Did I miss that? No? Because at this point, in the eyes of the world, 9/11 and terrorism has been turned into a story that JUSTIFIES nothing. It's just another Empire, working a beat. And that is an appalling, historic mistake. Not bringing anyone to trial, for anything, putting it all in the past, people can back Obama and yep, it may make domestic political sense, but going forward, all it means to the world is the US - whether led by Right or Left - is not to be believed in its commitments, and certainly not in its grand speeches.
But the worst, I swear, is having to listen to the romance of war. It just never bloody ends. The General... who is just somebody's big dumb ole brother.
Show some goddamn respect. The bodies are knee deep, the hearts just stopped beating, we're responsible. And we're already bleating about how we're gonna save the world this time.
At bayonet point.
July 3, 2009 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Quinn, I can see that you are extraordinarily angry, and I recognize that, having sent a son into a war I did not support and having had to live through Bush and Co. throughout his time in the Marines. I raged all the time too.
If I have said anything to offend you, please know that was not my intention, and I apologize for any stress I may have added to what you already feel.
However, in reading through your comments, I see that I've been stuck with many arguments I never made. I never said a word about "democracy" in Afghanistan, for one thing, nor did I mean to imply that we should hang the whole war on a young man who was featured in one article.
It's never been my thing to glorify or romanticize war. My son got blown up in Iraq and will have health problems related to that for the rest of his life, so although you may be in line to accuse me of many things in your angry comments, please know that isn't one of them that makes any sense to me.
And if you found what I said "emotionally manipulative," know that was not my intention. I thought I included a great many facts and numerous links for people to read through and decide on their own.
We disagree. That's cool.
July 3, 2009 2:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Deanie. When you tie very large decisions, affecting millions of people, about whether or how to prosecute a war, to the lives of the troops - and especially family members - then damn sure it's emotional. And that's fine. I'm not at all against bringing emotions to bear on these discussions, and the lives of the troops COUNT. Damn right they do.
But when you begin to write as though all the troops think or want such and such... or start telling us that we "owe" them a certain decision on whether and how to prosecute the war, then I begin to feel pushed around emotionally. You do it in the post, and then again in the comments, and I want to flag it because your voice matters here, and to come out in SUPPORT of war is a big deal, doubly so when you OPPOSED the Iraq War.
"If a young man like that--only 26 years old--can have that kind of hope... then I don't hardly see how the rest of us can fail him.
Let's just give this thing a chance to work. Those guys who've been stranded forgotten... deserve at least that much.
It's all our guys ever asked of us, and it's the least we owe them, and the least we owe the people of Afghanistan.
And then, "He is 26 going on 66. He is a hundred years older than anybody else in the room. And if, after all he's been through and all he's seen, he can still have hope, then we owe him that much for his sacrifices."
See, I also feel I have responsibilities to the troops. And one of those responsibilities is not to get them blown up or killed for bad reasons. I also owe them in the sense of owing FUTURE soldiers something. And sometimes that means doing things that increase the risk to today's soldiers, so that fewer will have to fight and die later.
But I also owe something to the peoples of those nations we're fighting in. And on top of that, I also owe something to the world, because how we behave now, in this context, will change how they'll deal with us later, on other fronts.
And beneath it all, I owe something to my fellow citizens - to make sure they don't bear the brunt of my bad decisions.
These are things all of us owe, as citizens, to ourselves, our country, each other, and the world. I understand your closest and most powerful thoughts are for your family, and many of them are troops. That's fine, and I respect that. But I'm deadly serious when I say that I think it is both immoral as well as bad policy to make these decisions based around what we owe the troops.
In short, it's great to support the troops, but that on its own isn't a trump on whether and how to fight a war, and to oppose the war doesn't mean we're not respecting them, or acting responsibly toward them. To suggest that what we owe them is to push for an expanded war is the kind of emotional freight the Bush Admin laid on us, remember? It wasn't right then, and it's not right now.
And yes, I'm cool if we differ. I'm just stating the difference as clearly and strongly as I know how.
July 3, 2009 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Q if it makes you feel any better I know plenty of people here in the USA who feel the same way about prosecutions of our torturers from Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld on down. I agree myself but you know how the village is. They can't chew gum and prosecute war crimes at the same time let alone resurrect the economy, and pass huge energy and healthcare reform legislation. If you think Washington was obsessed with stains on a blue dress you can imagine how it would come to screaming halt for a couple of years over war crimes trials. We have to climb out of the hole we're in before we can even begin to think about it. And sadly by then it'll probably be too late.
As for Iraq I give you my post on DD's blog "A Perfect Day":
Look fellas the Iraqis have their June 30th, we have our July 4th. I'm sure a couple hundred years ago our young country, still a few years away from the War of 1812 was celebrating our victory over our oppressors the British in 1783.
I suggest in 13 months when we get the hell out for good we shake their hands, tell 'em they were the toughest muthas we fought since the Nazis or the Vietnamese or some such shit and then ask if they want to trade some oil for fine American made solar panels.
Through out our history, even after the revolution, despite our differences, the Brits were the biggest foreign investors in the USA. They lent the money to build the railroads, steel mills and foundries. There's no reason why we can't have the same kind of relationship with the Iraqis. We're intimates now, born of a shared fiasco and sacrifices of blood and treasure whether we like it or not.
It behooves us all, to try to make something good of those sacrifices that were made by so many on both sides. We do that and maybe we can salvage something more than a modicum of dignity which is all our military is looking for now.
Posted by markg8 in reply to a comment from dickday
June 30, 2009 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
July 3, 2009 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have to join you in this comment. There is no evidence that I have ever seen to indicate that the US military has the slightest chance of doing anything in Afghanistan beyond killing and maiming people, and destroying villages. How long does it take for us to learn that Afghanistan is not where our military have a role? My biggest disappointment with Obama is that he caved so easily to the militarists desire to maintain a war somewhere. Being commander in chief means you decide where military action is needed, not some generals, and very certainly not the troops involved. Obama needs to learn and learn very quickly or we are going to be facing another slow drip, drip, drip of casualties to no effect.
July 3, 2009 9:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Deanie, this is more indepth than I have ever seen anywhere. Thanks for such an informative post. I wonder how many reporters, or for that matter; how many administration operatives have looked at all the aspects you have.
Thanks for this; I have to say, though -- I agree with Lalo -- who cares? We simply can't solve everything, and we aren't doing that well at solving our own problems, so my solution?
Bring them home!
July 2, 2009 9:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
It would be a lot easier to "send them home" if 3,000 Americans hadn't died at the hands of those who found refuge in that land.
It's not that simple. We need to secure that country in order to, ourselves, be at least somewhat more secure.
July 2, 2009 9:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
If we hadn't been mucking around in the middle east to begin with we wouldn't have been attacked. How many young men and women have to keep dying to revenge that attack?
Even if we could make the fields bloom with roses instead of poppies, that wouldn't stop some nuts somewhere else from trying to take us down a peg. Some would tell me we can't afford healthcare for everyone who needs a transplant or dialysis. Well, maybe we can't afford to be 100% secure from every terrorist either.
We can no longer afford to be the world's policemen if we ever could.
July 2, 2009 9:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
First, that cannot be done and second it isn't true that we have to "secure" Afghanistan to improve our security. That's just rhetoric, it has no relationship to truth or fact. I understand you believe it and so do others but that doesn't make it so. We undermine our security more with each passing day we keep our military in Afghanistan.
July 3, 2009 4:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
How about adding some depth to your conclusions? You could give Deanie that much considering the work she put in. Plus it would be helpful to flesh out the thoughts of people like me, who agree with you.
July 3, 2009 11:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Scratch that. Ive read the rest of the thread. Thanks to all who contributed. Great stuff.
July 3, 2009 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent post, Deanie. Most wars are no longer winnable in the conventional sense, but they can come to satisfactory or unsatsifactory outcomes depending on the wisdom, resources, and public support they enjoy. A precipitous withdrawal from Afghanistan, where unlike Iraq, a terrorist haven dangerous to the U.S. is a reality, would be devastating, as would be our failure to contain the drug trade that sustains the Taliban in their subjugation of the Afghan people.
Equally important, a strategy that sees Afghanistan and Pakistan as separate parts of the same menace, is a refreshing change from past policies. With luck, courage, and effort, we can help the Afghan government reduce corruption, win the support of its own people, and stabilize the nation against insurgency. Similarly, we are beginning to see the Pakistan government undertake its own efforts to contain an insurgency that has finally become so brutal that it has lost the allegiance of almost all Pakistanis. What we can hope for is a scenario in which U.S. military and economic support permit us to transfer more and more authority to legitimate governments in the region, a process that we are now stumbling into in Iraq after years of ineptitude.
July 2, 2009 9:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are two million refugees from the Swat valley, who fled the Taliban, in camps in Pakistan. Are there any plans for their imminent return? I don't think so.
Pakistan is going through a simultaneous economic, political, and military catastrophe, the magnitude of which dwarfs anything in Afghanistan.
As usual, we are fighting the wrong war.
July 2, 2009 10:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
And while it's true that the Taliban are mostly hated by Pakistanis these days, Obama is not doing a good job winning "hearts and minds" there either. Consider this from a WorldPublcOpinion report that was just released:
Views of the Operation in Afghanistan
Almost all Pakistanis disapprove of the Obama administration’s decision to increase US forces in
Afghanistan. Very large majorities disapprove of the NATO mission and say it should be ended
now.
ATTITUDES TOWARD THE UNITED STATES
7. President Obama and US Goals
Only one in three Pakistanis express confidence in President Obama or think his policies will be
better for Pakistan. Very large majorities still have an unfavorable view of the current US
government and think the US is playing a mostly negative role in the world. Very large majorities
continue to think the US has hostile goals--to weaken and divide the Islamic world; to impose
American culture on Muslim society; and to maintain control over the Middle East’s oil resources.
Only a minority thinks it is a US goal to see the creation of a viable Palestinian state. When asked
about Obama’s goals, Pakistanis’ views are almost exactly the same as their views of US goals.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/jul09/WPO_Pakistan_Jul09_rpt.pdf
July 2, 2009 11:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Afghanistan is not known as 'The Graveyard of Empires" for nothing...
July 2, 2009 9:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's true, Libertine, and is a good reason why we should not hope to become conquerors or long-term occupiers of Afghanistan. However, that same warning was issued to us in anticipation of our Afghanistan campaign in the wake of 9/11, but in fact, through stragic alliances with local forces, we inflicted a crushing defeat on the Taliban.
We then took our eye off the ball, diverted resources to Iraq, failed to provide economic support to the Afghan government, failed to pressure them to eliminate corruption, and accordingly allowed the Taliban back into the struggle when we could have avoided that via sufficient support for the government.
I believe we can profit from the prior experience - both in terms of what went right and
what went wrong.
July 2, 2009 10:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree we took our eye off the ball Fred but I don't think our defeat of the Taliban was a crushing one.
All we ended up doing was dispersing them throughout the country. They were never defeated they just went underground, then regrouped and came back at us on their terms. There is no ending the corruption in the way Afghanistan is governed. It is their way of life, how they do their business. We can never expect to change the nature of a people. We just didn't recognize that fact just like we failed to recognize what would happen in Iraq once Saddam was removed.
So what is the end game? Under what conditions do we 'win' and then get to leave? And how many more US service men and women have to die because we can't learn the lessons that history teaches?
July 2, 2009 10:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
. . . we inflicted a crushing defeat on the Taliban.
My memory's failing me but ---
Taliban leadership untouched by Operation Enduring Freedom and currently active:
Mullah Omar, Baitullah Mehsud, Zulfiqar Mehsud, Maulvi Omar, Haji Omar, Mullah Nazir, Noor Islam, Qari Hussain, Haji Khanan, Nek Mohammed, Abdullah Mehsud, Jalaluddin Haqqani, Siraj Haqqani, Nisruddin Haqqani, Sayed Mohammed Haqqani, Sadiq Noor, Sufi Mohammed, Maulana Qazi Fazlullah, Faqir Mohammed, Omar Khalid, Hakeemullah Mehsud, Maulana Abdul Aziz, Mullah Obaidullah Akhund, Amir Khan Muqtaddi, Qari Ziaur Rahman, Dost Mohammed, Anwar Ul Haq, Qabir Bashir Haqqani, Mullah Nissam Udin, Qari Baryal, Mullah Hayatullah Khan, Mullah Razayar Noorzai, Mullah Munibullah, Peer Agha, Abdul Latif Hakimi, Syed Tayyab Agha, Sheik Ustad Yassir, Qari Bashir, Mullah Nasrullah, Mullah Mansoor Dadullah.
Leadership killed or captured in the past few years:
Mullah Dadullah Akhund (k. 2007 by British Special Forces)
Mullah Akhtar Usmani (k. 2006 by airstrike)
Darim Sedgai (k. 2008 by unknown gunmen)
Ahmad Shah (k. by Pakistani police)
Mohammad Rahim (captured 2008)
Doesn't sound like a "crushing defeat" to me, but then, maybe I'm missing something.
July 2, 2009 10:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would suggest that Taliban domination of Afghanistan suffered a crushing defeat. Many of the leaders fled, which is what leaders try to do when their forces are defeated. It's clearly true that the defeat was not final, and in fact, my point is that these conflicts will never end with finality. However, our first Afghanistan campaign ended successfully, and we then failed to follow up to sustain that success. This time, if we learn from the history of both our successes and failures, we will combine military pressure with economic aid as well as presssure on the the Afghan government to root out corruption and instead enhance its ability to provide security to the people. "Winning" will mean leaving Afghanistan mainly in the hands of its people, with periodic multinational assistance as needed to help it maintain control, but with very little if any continued military operations conducted by Americans.
July 2, 2009 11:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Back to your "crushing defeat" ---
Any organization which maintains virtually its entire leadership cadre intact and saves 98% of its foot soldiers wouldn't appear to have been crushed.
If all you mean is that the Taliban abandoned Kabul, I couldn't disagree. But Kabul isn't Afghanistan, and the Taliban never abandoned Afghanistan (or Pashtunistan, either for that matter).
July 3, 2009 1:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
But the U.S. captured a 12 year old and brought him to Guantanamo for "interrogation." He's still in our custody, as it turns out he admitted to being Lucifer's son and Osama bin Laden's spiritual and military guru.
July 3, 2009 3:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
I believe a more objective reading of history reveals that we routed the Taliban from control of Afghanistan, forcing their leaders to flee and most of the "foot soldiers" to return to civilian life as farmers rather than continue to fight.
The militants fled to Pakistan, which is why a combined Afghanistan/Pakistan strategy will be critical to our future efforts, and must include the governments of those nations as well as U.S. and other outside forces.
So far, the efforts are going reasonably well - even better than expected in Pakistan, because anti-U.S. sentiment there has been overwhelmed by anti-Taliban, anti-Al Qaeda sentiment.
This will be a prolonged struggle, with no clear ending for decades, and repeated flareups, but in 2001-2002, we already demonstrated our ability to greatly surpass predictions for military accomplishments in Afghanistan, and we have some evidence from today's Iraq that progress can be made when we put qualified individuals in charge instead of politically-selected fools.
We will probably succeed over the next half century, as we did in the Cold War. We may not, but the cost of failure in terms of a destabilized region with potential access to nuclear weapons means that we must try our best, and be prepared for a very long struggle.
July 3, 2009 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Without a doubt we, actually a coalition of warlords, forced the Taliban to retreat. However, a retreat is not the same thing as a defeat. In fact there isn't the slightest chance of defeating the Taliban, short of killing hundreds of thousands of Moslems in that area of the world, and even that will very likely not be a true defeat. This is because there is no government behind the Taliban, no government that can surrender, and be replaced with a different government. There is also no government in Afghanistan to accept a surrender. We try to treat Afghanistan as if the puppet government we installed in Kabul is the true government of the country. It isn't and won't be.
Once we leave Afghanistan, whether it is after 10 years of killing people there and destroying villages, or after this weekend, that country may very well begin again to host anti-American hotheads. And, why shouldn't they do so? It is their country, and to the people there hating Americans is certainly nothing unusual.
Our defense against future terrorism is not in Afghanistan, but in this country. If we were to put half the energy into that defense that we now put into the "war on drugs" we would have near 100% certainty that no future 9/11 could occur. In fact 9/11 was very easily preventable if the Bush administration had not fallen asleep on the job.
July 3, 2009 9:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
We can't even root out corruption in our own government!
July 3, 2009 9:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
"that same warning was issued to us in anticipation of our Afghanistan campaign in the wake of 9/11"
as I recall it, a lot of those warnings included the provision that securing Pakistan's cooperation in our invasion would be impossible.
Well Armitage did, allegedly, threaten to bomb Pakistan "back to the Stone Age" if Musharraf did not cooperate with us. Whatever the truth of that story, it is absolutely true, as you have said, that AfPak is for many (not, by any means, all)intents and purposes the same entity.
Musharraf's "cooperation" was indeed secured, at enormous cost, both literally and figuratively (how many of the billions we gave him wound in the hands of the Taliban via ISI agents paying them off and/or supporting them? None of it went to actually improving conditions in Pakistan or fighting the Taliban.). So we associated ourselves with a hated dictator for years, and destroyed our own reputation in the process.
Now, Pakistan itself is going to have to be reconstructed from its humanitarian catastrophe, triggered by the Taliban's taking control of Swat. According to McClatchy, the tab is $3.5 billion- seems trivial in comparison with bailouts of our own, extremely dubious "financial industry." And then- what? The cycle will begin again. (I'm not saying we shouldn't help Pakistan. I'm just saying that the humanitarian aid should not delude us into thinking that we are renting an ally.)
July 3, 2009 11:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Fred Moolten--thank you for pointing out things that needed saying.
At some point in the post, I inadvertantly used the word "unwinnable" which then gave the impression, I guess, that I think this is a war to be "won" or "lost."
I thought the body of my post pointed out just the opposite to be true. We are trying to stabilize it, trying to bolster individual tribes and villages to survive without being browbeaten into submission by the Taliban, trying to keep those who would destroy us constantly on the run so that they cannot build up a comfortable place for plotting against us, such as they had before.
I, too, have seen polling info that is not nearly as negative as portrayed in one of the comments, but I think that, all in all, the Afghan people are adopting a "wait and see" attitude to see what happens, and you can hardly blame them for that.
But I do believe that if we simply pull out precipitously, lock, stock, and Humvee, as we did in the '80's, we leave the kinds of conditions that gave birth to al Qaeda in the first place.
It is not imperialist to hope that a nation which is vital to our national security would be able to sustain its own recovery and defend itself from its own enemies. Yes, the government is corrupt, and we are searching for ways to deal with that. And yes, its "army," such as it is, is inadequate, and we're trying to correct that, for their own protection.
There is no such thing as "winning" anything in the Middle East. All we can hope is, say, something similar to what we saw when Egypt and Israel made peace under Anwar Sadat.
It is better than it was.
July 3, 2009 12:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Our very military presence is the single most destabilizing thing going on in Afghanistan. You can't stabilize while being the prime for of destabilization.
July 3, 2009 4:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
I meant to type "force" of destabilization. Sorry.
July 3, 2009 4:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Deanie,
Afghanistan is not vital to our national security. Canada is vital to our natinal security.
These are Vietnam arguments. Obama is going to be LBJ minus Medicare if he doesn't watch out. We had money back then.
July 3, 2009 9:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Deanie, Thank you sooo much!!! I really appreciate this. I have wondered about what was going on there but haven't had to the time to inform myself well. This was very well written.
Thanks again!:)
July 3, 2009 1:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?
Karzai is nothing but a corrupt puppet and former advisor to Unical, the company which had plans to build the oil pipeline across Afghanistan before the Taliban (who we fully supported beforehand, even giving them state sponsored tours of Washington and Houston) gave the contract to a South American company.
As soon as we put Karzai in power, he granted Unical the rights to build the pipeline, worth trillions of future dollars.
When Karzai went up for re-election, our CIA helped him buy off every plausible candidate, despite Karzai's very high unpopularity. His top rival was promised the Vice Presidency, for example.
Karzai's government is thoroughly corrupt, and its police officers are as bad or worse than the Taliban in harassment, extortion, and violence.
Afghan's don't like the Taliban, but our puppet government leaves them little if no choice. Not to mention the accidental or intentional monthly mass murder of its citizens from the skies.
As far as McChrystal, he helped in the cover of Pat Tillman's cause of death, and exploited his death for political gain.
Tillman was shot 3 times in the forehead in a 1.5 inch grouping, and his clothes and all his personal belongings were burned immediately after he died.
If he wasn't fragged intentionally because of his political views, pending discharge from the military, and popularity with the American people, the "friendly fire" nature of his accidental death was immediately known to be just that. McChrystal knew.
McChrystal also ran the special operations division that is said by renowned author and reporter Seymour Hirsh. Hirsh has a new book coming out shortly in which we will learn all of the details, but it looks like we'll find that McChrystal was Cheney's point man for the world-wide, illegal assassination ring that undoubtedly stirred up some trouble in Iran as well.
We need to stop propping up Karzai, show the Afghans that we respect them as fellow human beings, and help them create some semblance of a real democracy while engaging in combat as little as possible, especially with spotty intelligence and high risk of mass civilian casualties.
Showing the Afghans that the American Military Industrial Complex respects the Afghans as fellow human beings is undoubtedly the greatest challenge of all, and that disrespect is exactly why we are right where we are.
July 3, 2009 3:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry Bill, it's been decided. Some 26 year old kid off Wall Street has now been declared Supreme Moral Arbiter & Geo-Political Go-Getter, and he thinks we should go back in....
So until further notice, McChrystal is to be referred to as McIke, Karzai is Lincoln, bullets are roses, and above all, listen to the men with the 100 year eyes... the 100 year eyes... the 100 year eyes....
July 3, 2009 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again, Quinn, see my comment above.
Never said Karzai was anything Like Lincoln, or any of the rest.
That's okay if that's how you see it. You are entitled, more than entitled. But it was most emphatically not what I said nor what I intended, for those of you reading along.
July 3, 2009 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I appreciate the effort and thoughtfulness you always put in your posts. However, respectfully, I have to point out that nothing you offer here is at all convincing that the approach under Obama promises to yield anything beyond endless conflict in Afghanistan.
The idea of winning anything in Afghanistan, let alone winning over hearts and minds is a preposterous pipe dream and is doomed to failure. This war, like the one in Iraq is unsalvageable and in point of fact was doomed to failure from the beginning. It is fundamentally wrong that our troops are even there. Yes, it is wrong for our troops to be there at all, even in Afghanistan where almost everyone in America believes we were justified in attacking. Our war aims beyond getting rid of the Taliban never even existed. We aren't and never have been in Afghanistan to fight terrorism.
It is our presence there, far more than any other factor, that generates the alleged terrorism we are supposedly trying to stamp out. In short, it is a Kafkaesque endeavor that cannot succeed because there is no real objective to be attained. The best strategy for salvaging Afghanistan as a nation is for us to withdraw, and really withdraw, not like in Iraq where we aren't ending the occupation but are intending on staying there with a significant army for many years to come. We need to get out of Afghnistan and Iraq now and quit fooling ourselves that either situation can be salvaged by continuing to offend the entire population with our presence and to provoke them and generate undying hatred for us through the ongoing killing of innocent men, women and children on a regular basis. There is no scenario for "winning" anything there. It is a bottomless pit of pointless effort and wasted resources no matter how well the soldiers carry out their mission. The only way to achieve stability and peace in either Iraq or Afghanistan is first and foremost to end the wars and get the hell out. That is far more effective at winning the hearts and minds of the population than what we're doing now or what we intend to do through Obama's policy of escalating the violence and sprinkling in some other nonmilitary efforts. The sooner we come to grips with that reality the better off we all will be not to mention how much better off our troops and the citizens of those war torn nations will be.
July 3, 2009 4:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Our war aims beyond getting rid of the Taliban never even existed. We aren't and never have been in Afghanistan to fight terrorism.
That's surely not what I thought "our war aims" were. I thought we were attempting to deny international anti-American terrorist groups (principally, al Qaeda) a safe haven. Of course, given the Taliban's political and religious views, they couldn't be left in charge.* Happily, they beat a hasty retreat -- into eastern Pashtunistan.
We should think of our troops sort of like the Roman legions manning the borders of the Roman Empire -- a quasi-permanent duty assignment. There's no reason they shouldn't be in Afghanistan for 20-30 years.
* Compare the actions of the National Islamic Front in Sudan in expelling al Qaeda after it attempted to assassinate Mubarak with the contrary actions of the Taliban in Afghanistan after 9/11
July 3, 2009 6:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, keep thinking Roman Empire...
July 3, 2009 9:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, the Roman Empire -- for better or worse -- did last 1480 years.
July 3, 2009 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
But technological, social, economic, and other changes did not happen then at the pace they do now. Our empire will disappear much faster than the British Empire did. We are at a point not dissimilar to where the British were around World War I. The empire does not have long to go before it is completely untenable and falls.
July 3, 2009 1:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think your analogy with the Roman Empire is a good one. I also think the intention is to be there for decades, not to secure our future by getting rid of terrorists but in order to secure the gas pipeline and other resources.
They no longer actually care about Bin Laden at all though they claim to. They just want Afghanistan to be stable enough to let the gas flow and for us to control it. Like the Roman Empire, however, we are vastly overextended militarily and no longer economically capable of affording the imperial effort. This seems quite clear to me though officialdom has yet to face the truth. In the not too distant future, Washington will have to face the truth and decide whether it will let the nation crumble internally and descend into chaos as the Roman Empire did as the fall began or to cut our financial losses by drastically curtailing the metastatic military spending and maintenance of empire we can no longer afford. Afghanistan and Iraq are two imperial extravagances that we couldn't afford when we initiated them and can afford them even less now what with the new depression and our, as a practical matter, bankruptcy as a nation which officialdom also refuses to admit. Our crushing debt is going to begin to rule us more than anything else and our nation's enemies are licking their chops at the thought of the Americans losing their once nearly invincible economic and military supremacy.
July 3, 2009 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Deanie, Your GREAT POST was indeed highly informative.
David Kilcullen was on Colbert Report several nights ago. Kilcullen is an anti-insurgency/anti-terrorist consultant out of Australia. Before listening to him I was perplexed for many of the same reasons as listed in naysayer comments above and listed in your piece. Kilcullen gave me hope that there was a rational answer to these problems in Afghanistan.
Your article has broadened that hope. My mother ask me about Afghanistan about a year ago and I shrugged my shoulders in bewilderment. I'm sending her your post; I will thank you for her. I know she will appreciate your insight as mothers do when listening to mothers.
Try to ignore the naysayers some are well intentioned others are just contrary by nature.
Thank you again for your brilliant post. Keep us informed Afghan news is widely scattered and easy to overlook.
July 3, 2009 8:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'd like to thank you all, as always, for your comments, which are always kept a civil level even when disagreeing with me or anybody else, and that means a lot to me.
I would like to clear up a common misperception. Yes, civilian casualties have been high, and many Afghans are outraged at that for good and obvious reason.
But the reason the casualties were high is that we didn't have enough troops on the ground to do eye-on surveillance or otherwise provide the kind of up-to-the-minute intel that could have prevented a Predator or missile strike on a target that does indeed contain al Qaeda but ALSO has innocents presence--something the Drone cannot perceive.
It is an ironic fact that by increasing the troops on the ground, we can actually REDUCE civilian casualties.
I also read many comments about the Big Bad Awful American Military running about offending Afghanis and so on, but these well-meaning comments completely overlook the utter brutality of Taliban/al Qaeda rule in a village.
They move in, murder, rape, and pillage, and take over a village. Schools that educate females are burned to the ground. Females who try to study or attend school have acid thrown in their faces and their teachers are beheaded as an example. Warlords take whichever daughters they want for their own wives, no matter how young. Sharia law in its most exaggerated form is upheld so there are public executions, beatings of women who go out without a male relative or show an ankle inadvertantly, and other savagery.
Get it through your heads that what we are trying to do now is PROTECT the Afghan population from this horror. We've made mistakes, such as the Drone attacks and so on, but we have made a dramatic change in our approach and we're going to try with everything in our power to not only be respectful of them and their culture, but show them how to PROTECT THEMSELVES and also PROVIDE FOR THEMSELVES, while at the same time, preventing another Taliban theocracy.
The Afghani people do not want the Taliban or al Qaeda there. No, they don't want us there either right now, but believe me, they prefer the Americans to the al Qaeda warlords any day of the week.
July 3, 2009 8:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Deanie,
Those same arguments were used about Vietnam. I know the situations are different and I know I'm severely biased by that experience but they always put things in the most positive light for the young troops. My WWII veteran father told me that. Send in the Peace Corps, fine. Do humanitarian work, great. But don't confuse war with humanitarian work.
July 3, 2009 9:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bluebell, we did send in USAID people without protection and they were bombed and murdered and kidnapped by al Qaeda/Taliban and most had to leave.
You guys need to understand that, right now, the U.S. military is there to protect the civilian aid workers as well.
And this comparison to Vietnam does not hold water to me. My dad, husband, brother, and brother-in-law are all Vietnam vets and I lived through it too and wanted it to end like everybody else.
This is not Vietnam, not by a longshot. If the Vietnam conflict had EVER had this kind of leadership and direction it would have been a whole different scenario.
But it is naive in the extreme to think that aid workers alone without anyone protecting them can make a difference right now in Afghanistan.
If we can get their troops to where they can protect their own populations, THEN we can pull out and leave the aid workers.
July 3, 2009 9:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Naive in the extreme...wow.
You think we could have won Vietnam with the leadership we have in place now?
Wow. Wow. It's pretty convincing: You're wishing for a pony because you have blood in the fight, Deanie.
I feel very sorry for the revelations you will no doubt face in the coming years, if you're lucky enough to live that long (I have no idea how old you are). And I pray for this much: That you DON'T blame the coming failure in Afghanistan on us dirty f*cking hippies who were simply right about this war from the start. Who actually learned from Vietnam, and didn't forget those lessons.
You're smart as a whip; you're a good writer. I like you very much, from this brief encounter. I'm on your side, actually; I wish this would work.
One final lesson for ME in all this: If someone as smart, dedicated, etc as YOU can walk around with blinders on, it could happen to ANYONE. Myself, too. As the Wicked Witch of the West said, as she died: "Oh, what a world, what a world!"
July 3, 2009 11:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Never thought the hippies were "dirty," nor did I say they were wrong.
I said the two wars cannot be compared. I also did not say we'd have "won" in Vietnam; I simply said it would have been different.
The passions aroused by this post seem to me to be a rehash of the passions aroused by Vietnam, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm talking about Afghanistan, not another war from a generation ago, in a different part of the world, with a different culture and history, and different everything.
July 3, 2009 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's far too late for us now to assume the position of the good guys protecting the populace. We are not that and never have been. It is our presence in their country that they object to. Of course they don't like the atrocties of the Taliban or others, but that by no means makes us the good guys and never will. Nothing positive can be salvaged by our continued military presence in Afghanistan.
July 3, 2009 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great post Deanie. Afghanistan is a tough nut to crack because it's so underdeveloped and resource poor. OTH it has nowhere to go but up. Small improvements can make a huge difference in the lives of the locals. Developing productive work for them that pays a living wage is a high hurdle. OTH beating the Taliban wage of $5 a day ought to be easy. One key could be getting the religious to convince the populace that growing opium poppies is immoral. The Taliban used to crack down on that, and we paid them $300 million annually in compensation. Switching to sustainable food crops is critically important.
July 3, 2009 9:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
markg8, thank you so much for reminding us of those facts. They are correct and up to date.
We all have to change our mindsets about this war and what we are doing. Right now, Marines are not kicking down doors in Afghanistan. They just got there yesterday and they are already meeting with tribal chieftans and promising NOT to enter their homes, and offering help.
Commenters who keep throwing back stuff that happened under Bush and the private contractors who had the run of the country when it was chaos do not GET that this kind of thing is NO LONGER HAPPENING now and we are redirecting the whole thing.
If Marines can change THEIR mindsets, then I don't see why it's so hard for peace activists.
July 3, 2009 9:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
LOL
July 3, 2009 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
How do you know this isn't happening? Just because Obama's in charge now?
Get real! You trust what you hear about the military, now, because Obama's President? After the lies of the last eight years--and I'm talking about PENTAGON HACK lies, the same hacks who were running things then haven't retired or been removed!
Do you think you're going to get any 'bad' news when this operation is ongoing? You really think there will be no civilian casualties? You really think the Afghans in those villages are grateful, are glad, are on our side? How do you know--because some Pentagon spokesperson told you?
Yeesh!
You cannot build a democracy by invasion. It's gone. It's ruined, Deanie, I'm sorry to give you the news. It's too late, Obama or no Obama. It's this simple: There are some things which are beyond even the power of the United States' money and military.
Why is it so hard to understand that--especially when the overwhelming number and amount of facts support it? Why can't you put yourself in their shoes--the Afghans'? They might hate the Taliban, but it's THEIR JOB to do something about it, not OURS.
July 3, 2009 11:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Again, I wish you guys would read what I SAID, not what you've read in other places.
I never once referred to "democracy" in Afghanistan.
All I talked about was relative security until they could take over and protect their own populations and we could get the hell out.
Just because I said those things does not mean I voted for George W. Bush.
July 3, 2009 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
The reason "peace activists" don't accept your arguments is because they believe your fundamental premise is simply wrong. No amount of explaining can change that no matter how careful or detailed. Our continuing failure to achieve stability there only proves this to be the case. There may be some minor improvements here and there, but they will not last and our military's efforts will be for naught.
The United States military can never right the situation in Afghanistan as long as it remains there. Our continued war on that nation is only making things worse. There is no reason to believe that dynamic will change because our strategy has changed.
There will be no securing that failed state with military force, there will be no victory in any conceivable sense no matter how long we remina there and no matter how many soldiers and civilians are sacrificed to prove otherwise. There will only be continued violence leading to more violence. And it isn't about only things that have occured under Bush. Obama's strategy is just as pointless and hopeless as Bush's was regardless of what our Generals say or how brilliant they may be. There is no military solution in Aghanistan. Continued belief that there is only endangers the lives of more people and continues to destabilize that country and Pakistan.
July 3, 2009 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oleeb, I appreciate all your comments here but I thought the whole point of my post was that this was NOT simply a "military solution."
Again, guys. What I said. Not what you've read other places.
July 3, 2009 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
While there is an element on nonmilitary effort in this plan, it remains primarily military. The nonmilitary stuff is window dressing and won't work anyway, at least not as advertised. Continuing the war is literally an excercise in futility at best, but more than likely erodes our security with each passing day.
July 4, 2009 4:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Funny. "Obama copies Bush strategy" hasn't been a headline anywhere, yet Obama's surge strategy is exactly what Bush and McCain propagated such a short time ago.
How can one be against the war in Iraq and yet for the Afghan war? War can not be restricted by arbitrary boundaries. They are both effectively the same war, against the same enemies; just that with Iraq, there was an easily obtainable target to satiate the masses.
In short, if you truly believe in waging the Afghan war to protect our country, you must also believe in waging the Iraq war. The argument being made to the contrary is "I believe in war when a person I like is waging the war." Have you all really been reduced to cheerleaders?
Further, to justify a strategy based on the man in office rather than the man that implemented the strategy is absurd.
July 3, 2009 11:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm making my way through this article, and will probably post some critiques of it along the way, one at a time, as I read it, since I'm one of those dirty f*cking hippies who thinks we need to get out of Afghanistan right now, today, no more killing, no more fighting, for reasons I've explained elsewhere.
First: You claim that you honor the soldiers who spearheaded the drive that invaded Afghanistan in the first place and installed Hamid Karzai as President. Sure. I'm always willing to honor any soldier who obeys orders and heads into combat--that's a no-brainer. But, like Michael Moore said, in the title of the book of letters from soldiers deployed in Bush's Wars: Will they ever trust us again? How can they?
Because those soldiers you reference were Special Forces dudes with nickel-plated Magnums, mirrored sunglasses and cowboy hats, riding herd on the masses of Northern Alliance warlords' troops, dear, not the U.S. Marines. THEY kicked the Taliban out of Kabul, not the U.S. military. They, and our air power. Mistake #1. For more information, read the excellent Jon Lee Anderson's article in The New Yorker.
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2001/12/24/011224fa_FACT2
July 3, 2009 11:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
"...whenever I would read about the godawful situation in Afghanistan, I would read a wish-list of what would be needed to fix the situation, from troops on the ground, from the generals, from aide workers, from diplomats, from Aghans themselves."
There is nothing on anyone's wish list that would make the situation a pony. IF Afghanistan were anything but a hell-hole, except for the people who call it home, it would be worth fighting for.
But it's nowhere. It's too far away from anything. It's always been a CROSSROADS, not a resource center for anything--except opium, of course. It's not worth fighting for. It's not worth dying for. It's not worth the money. Our efforts will NOT prevent terrorism, and they lately will only spur more of it onward. 17 killed and 27 wounded by Predator drones, just today. How many of those were civilians?
There is no fighting terrorism. There is only its prevention, its detection, infiltration, etc. Occupying Afghanistan and Iraq are useless wastes of colossal amounts of money, and bin Laden is succeeding beyond his wildest dreams in bleeding the greatest country on Earth of its treasure, its best fighting men and women, and its reputation.
I'm sorry, Deanie, you may have lots of friends on this site, but you haven't convinced me of a thing yet, because the basic premise is just as flawed as Bush's premise of invading Iraq. You cannot bring democracy at the point of a gun, at least the way WE'VE done it so far. It will take a World War II sized effort--draft millions of young men, send an overwhelming force over there, police the streets 24/7, door-to-door combat nonstop...
And they'll just slink away into the mountains and wait.
The end of Afghanistan will look nearly identical to the end of the U.S. occupation of Baghdad: A hasty retreat, with the terrorists shooting at our troops as they go.
I don't know about you, but I would rather we didn't have the learning curve of several years before that happens. This is Vietnam. It will not end well. Another chance? Just because the troops 'deserve' it? Appeals to emotion, when it comes to billions of dollars and everything else at stake, mean nothing to me--or anyone who can look at the situation rationally.
July 3, 2009 11:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
There are ways of fighting the terrorism, but unfortunately, using the military is counterproductive, as it inevitably creates more terrorists, and is the most cost-intensive way of doing business generally (both to the nation perpetrating it, and to the nation being used as Exhibit A of said nation's benevolence (!). And this point cannot be emphasised enough:
A humanitarian war is a contradiction in terms.
July 3, 2009 11:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Deanie,
I just want to thank you again for writing this post. It brought out a great deal of discussion on the topic and because of your post and the comments I feel I have a great deal more insight to what is going on in Afghanistan although it seems to me the strategy is still a bit of trial and error and dependent on many factors going forward.
July 3, 2009 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
"If it fails, it fails."
Who knew making war was a win-win situation. I mean if it fails, no big deal, it fails. No lives lost. No new enemies made. It doesn't hurt to try. You can't make an omelette without a few broken eggs. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
"It's all our guys ever asked of us, and it's the least we owe them, and the least we owe the people of Afghanistan." Our guys. Of one mind...of course. Ms. Mills is a marine mom so she knows all marines and all soldiers just want a chance for victory. That's all they have ever asked for. We even get a profile of a First-Lieutenant. Clinches it for me. And if some soldiers die or are wounded or if innocent villagers are bombed or if large numbers (a majority?) of Afghanis don't share Ms.Mills view of victory, or Arthur Karell's, then do we still owe it to them to clear Helmand Province to send more troops regardless of what it costs them and regardless of what they want? I haven't heard (nor was there any profiles in the articles Ms. Mills prepared for us of Afghanis calling for a wider war)? Why, Ms.Mills? Don't they have a say? Even if you speak for them all. Never mind. If it fails, it fails. Who can stand in the way of giving it a go. After all its just a little war.
At least you didn't speak for me. I think escalating the Af-Pak war is very dangerous...it is harder not easier to disengage when more is on the line. One serious American reverse and the demand for still more troops will be hard to resist. Are we winning after eight years the hearts and minds. My understanding is that the reverse has been happening.
July 3, 2009 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Afghanistan is back to growing 93% of the world's heroin poppies. You think that's good? You think that's a morally or economically sustainable base for their economy? It breeds gangsterism, warlordism and is an invitation to disaster for Afghanistan once again.
We can up and leave after making practically no effort for almost 8 years or we can try and get it right. We don't have goons and racists in charge anymore. Afghanistan has been destitute since 1979 when the Soviet invasion tore their country apart. Indeed one of the arguments a Taliban foreign minister tried to use before we attacked in the fall of 2001 was there wasn't a building in the country worth over $200,000, hardly worth attacking with a $2 million dollar cruise missile. The point here is small improvements can make a big difference in their lives. Protected NGOs can do that. Unprotected aid workers just kidnapped and murdered. If we're talking about a Marshall Plan for Afghanistan it'll be a lot cheaper adjusted to today's dollars than rebuilding a first world country like
Germany was after WW11.
July 3, 2009 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Afghanistan is back to growing 93% of the world's heroin poppies. " Not after eight years of our presence? Gee let's definitely get it right in say the next eight to ten years, fifteen tops. And after we handle the poppies let's teach the poor boobs how to vote and all about democracy and to stop whining about errant (or deliberate) bombs. We'll send teachers and doctors and lobbyists...and we can do it on the cheap too (this is a third world country after all).
July 3, 2009 8:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
And your solution? Turn it back over to the Taliban and Al Qaeda?
July 3, 2009 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
sure.
peace advocate=appeaser=traitor.
I can listen to repeat Fox News all day long, just like you.
Any five-year old can.
July 4, 2009 8:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't watch Fox News all day long VLaszlo. These days I spend almost all my time trying to get a good healthcare bill passed when I'm not scrambling to make a living. You can see some of the stuff I've been doing here: http://www.dgdemocrats.com/
Everything there under healthcare I personally researched, collected and put on that website. I also organized a healthcare petition drive that got 800 signatures on 57 pages and gave them to my useless congresswoman Judy Biggert (IL-13). She won't vote for the bill but it's helped put the fear of the electorate in her.
Last night I spoke with Congressman Bill Foster (IL-14) about the energy and healthcare bills before marching in a parade with him.
Today I will be marching in two parades with dozens of other Democrats, right now it looks like in the rain. We're building a local party where for decades the Republican machine has controlled politics.
I spend my time on things I can help change for the better not making stupid assumptions about others or pretending Obama's policies are the same as Bush's. You might try that instead of insulting people who don't agree with you. Along the way you might actually learn something. Abandoning Afghanistan again would be disastrous both politically, policy wise, and would be just as immoral as invading Iraq. Almost everybody in this country agreed with the initial invasion in 2001 after 9/11. Just because Bush screwed it up doesn't mean we're any less obligated to try to get it right. You're no more likely to find high level military officers who aren't tainted in some way by the last 8 years of war than you are to find financial analysts to work at Treasury who aren't tainted by the Wall St meltdown.
July 4, 2009 9:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
OK, Mark. I agree you have been doing good work on the health care bill. I support you in that work.
I do not support you or Deanie Mills or any other war-peddlars in making a wider war in Af-Pak. Nation-building in Afghanistan might have made some sense in 2002 but it makes no sense now. We have done too much damage, we have too few allies, we have too few resources. Every war has its justifiers; even the reluctant cheerleaders like you.
I heard all about "making it work" in Vietnam; about how those who called for American withdrawal were abandoning the Vietnamese to bloodthirsty Communists (you probably are too young and the history sanitizes a lot of the disgusting dishonest disgraceful arguments but they were really used). Your argument "if we withdraw, we abandon Afghanistan to the bloodthirsty Taliban and al-Qaeda certainly has the same root. To seriously discuss Afghanistan, we have to put aside the comic-books and cartoons that Deanie Mills is endlessly hawking here. To be polite she is really full of it. When you turn over your warmaking to mercenaries like the warlords we used (who are every bit as depraved as the Taliban) then you forfeit a lot of the moral high ground; when you topple a despicable regime like the Taliban and then you put no resources into rebuilding the country but instead make war on a nation with which we have no legitimate quarrel then you forfeit the moral high ground. If you can come off your moral high horse maybe there is a discussion possible but every line you use reeks of neoliberal moral superiority. If you make a wider war as Obama is doing there are incredible unforeseen consequences. If it does not go well, the war will "have" to be expanded; if Obama is succeeded by a right wing government what will they do? Certainly not withdraw after 12 or 16 years. Will they conduct the kind of war you are advocating? How do you know it will be wrapped up (whatever that means) by the time Obama's term is over? What are the war aims you are advocating? What is victory? When can we withdraw? Can we afford a long war? You say it will be short and easy...you say it will be cheap. Bull. It will not be any of that. And domestic reforms will be put off until military adventures are "successfully" completed.
You may not watch Fox News but you reflect simplistic answers to complicated problems. I do not believe Obama's military escalation will stabilize long-term the situation in Afghanistan.
July 4, 2009 12:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd say every line you use reeks of moral superiority. You really see no difference between Bush and Obama? It took weeks to route the Taliban and Al Qaeda the first time. With the Pakistanis finally fed up with their destabilization of their country, the longstanding disgust with them in Afghanistan it shouldn't take more than a year to deny them of their sanctuaries, supplies and end most of the fighting. They have little to no indigenous support in Afghanistan because they are for the most part brutal foreign religious nuts who are piss poor at governing. Once again we're not talking about the Vietnamese where half the south considered Ho Chi Minh their George Washington and the opposition was supplied openly by another superpower, the USSR. I adamantly opposed that stupid war as I did the invasion of Iraq.
This is a completely different situation. It's not gonna take 12 to 16 years to end the Taliban threat to Afghanistan and Pakistan and put an end to Al Qaeda in SW Asia. Once that's done it's also not going to take all that long to drag Afghanistan out of the stone age they've been in since 1979. It's not gonna be West Germany or Japan circa 1950 when we leave but it doesn't have to be.
The Bushies couldn't have f*cked up worse if they tried. That doesn't mean the entire US military, foreign service and NGO's are stupid it just means they had terrible leadership in DC for the last 8 years.
July 4, 2009 10:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mark I believe you afe factually wrong on a number of key points and that may help account for your misunderstanding of the situation in Afghanistan. You say of the Taliban and al-Qaeda "They have little to no indigenous support in Afghanistan because they are for the most part brutal foreign religious nuts who are piss poor at governing." This is entirely incorrect. The Taliban is a native group to Afghanistan; we helped arm them against the Soviets when they were mujahadeen fighting the Soviet-backed secular government. They have growing popularity in Afghanistan right now because of the cdonflict, American bombing atrocities which have killed large numbers of noncombatants; the corruption of the Karzai government; and the dependence of the Karzai government on despicable brutal warlords...equal to the Taliban in their violence against noncombatants but without the veneer of religiosity.
Your predictions of a short clean conflict and a country in grateful quiescence afterwards is, to be gentle, poppycock. It is based on your assumptions which are based on your intuition and mainstream reporting and maybe feelgood trust in Obama. If you are interested in other points of view you might take a look at Bill Moyer's journal which has had several excellent shows on Afghanistan, one that I found particularly informative was with Jeremy Scahill. Finding information on the Taliban and their nativist history in Afghanistan is also quite easy by simply googling "Taliban origins". Of course we all know al-Qaeda is not a native Afghan force (although bin Laden did fight with the US supported mujahadeen in the fight against Karmal government.
July 5, 2009 9:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
VLaszlo I think you give as much weight to naysayers and those who say our government can't do anything right as you surmise I do to "intuition, mainstream reporting and any feelgood trust in Obama". Which BTW has nothing to do with it.
Reagan and Bush 1 did indeed support those who went on to become the Taliban in the 1980s via the Pakistani ISI along with many others opposed to them which went on to be known in aggregate as the Northern Alliance. It was mainly the Saudis who supported Al Qaeda in their efforts there in those days not because the CIA didn't try to co-opt them but because Bin Laden and his boys despised hedonistic Americans as much as they hated godless communists. They're warlords one and all.
In 1989 when the Soviets left, so did Bush 1. In DC squandering too many resources on piss poor failed states with few resources to exploit like Afghanistan actually became known as "Afghanization of foreign policy", something to be avoided by the realpolitik amoral capitalists of the Kissinger-Bush 1 ilk. They shouldn't be confused with Shrub's neocons who thought they could make people they hate love us at the point of a gun.
The big powers left the devastated country to the tender mercies of the various warlords (after 10 years of non stop war they were about the only power left, certainly no civil institutions or central government). The Taliban with Al Qaeda as their defacto DoD coalesced power with support of the ISI. The ISI financed Al Qaeda training of 40,000 guerrillas mostly to make hay in Kashmir. As a side note in 1998 we cut off what aid we gave and influence we had in Pakistan because they tested their first nuke. By 1994 the Taliban had secured control of most of the country. Sick of war, and warlords who'd steal them blind, most of the exhausted population would take any set of goons as long as it meant peace. For most of them the severe religious vice cop restrictions on media, beard length and women were a price they'd be willing to pay as long as they could get their goods to market without being robbed or shot. Both Clinton and Bush paid the Taliban $300 million a year to quash the poppy trade right up til 9/11. The Taliban said they did it for moral reasons but $300 million a year goes a long way in Afghanistan.
About 40% of the country are Pashtuni, mainly in the south. They share a common language and tribal ties with the Taliban from Pakistan. But like any crossroads Afghanistan has many ethnic tribes. There's also a lot of folks who left or were driven out of former Soviet Republics and you have those few Uegher fellas who wanted to get away from Chinese repression. Some came to get their war on, some came to the hell away from the fighting. Virtually none had to show a valid passport to get in.
The country is a mess. Karzai is a former Unocal VP and his government is as corrupt as all get out. There's an election this fall and hopefully we can get some UN observers in there and have a legit election. There are no crops that can provide the return that poppies do. But farmers don't see that money, most of it goes to the warlord gangsters. In a country where the Taliban can hire goons for $5 a day, a cinderblock house with a couple of rooms is a frigging palace, and an irrigation project any halfway decent Peace Corp team of three could help build, some food crop seeds, throw in some windmills per county, passable roads to the county seat, and you have something tangible the locals want to hang onto and protect. Pretty soon they see the difference between our folks who are helping them build a bit better life and don't give a damn about the length of their beards or forcing them to treat their women like cattle and the goons who won't let them fly a kite or even listen to music.
This isn't rocket science. In your scenario most of Afghanistan not only prefers to live in the 7th century but will fight to live in squalor under religious goons who dictate the most mundane aspects of their lives. I'm not buying it.
Yeah of course bombing the hell out of them with drones piloted from a desk in Tampa or Virginia is a stupid way to try to win hearts and minds let alone hit the target. That's why we want Marines in town drinking tea instead of getting mortared on some firebase in the hills. Give these guys a little credit. Rummy and Cheney may not have learned any valuable lessons from Vietnam but that doesn't mean everybody else is that stupid.
July 5, 2009 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mark, you say: "In your scenario most of Afghanistan not only prefers to live in the 7th century but will fight to live in squalor under religious goons who dictate the most mundane aspects of their lives. I'm not buying it."
I am perplexed as to where in my comments I say anything like this or imply this. I think the Afghanis prefer to have us bring peace and modernize their country with health care benefits and education K-12, and then higher education for all, and housing and new roads and commerce with good jobs. I think they prefer if the Taliban would do this also. I don't think this is in the cards from us or from the Taliban. It has always been hard to fight a local insurgency and win over the loyalties of the populace at the same time; in addition we have pressing domestic needs and a certain war-weariness that comes out of the mess in Iraq. I think securing Afghanistan is a monumental problem and would have been extremely difficult if we had poured in the men and resources we have wasted in Iraq for eight solid years; i DO not believe that we can now start from scratch all over again and I think that is basically what you are advocating. I believe we can withdraw troops and still influence the outcome in Afghanistan greatly, particularly if the opposition to the Taliban and their despicable government is as deep and intense as you estimate; and if it is not then even the military effort is sure to fail. Part of why I perceive you as playing the morally superior role is that you seem to refuse to acknowledge that withdrawing American troops does not reduce to "abandoning the Afghanis to the Taliban and al Qaeda"; this sort of reductionism is the main propaganda tool of the right and we would do well to avoid it.
July 5, 2009 5:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think most Afghanis have a clue what health care benefits, K-12 education, and higher education even means by our standards or knew where NYC was on 9/11. A little housing, new roads, school houses and help with their own commerce would be a big deal to them. Their expectations aren't that great.
It seems the crux is you believe the Taliban is a local insurgency and I don't. They're able to dragoon locals but for the most part the Taliban leadership is from Pakistan and is fighting for reasons most Afghanis could care less about. If you think we're war weary they've been hosting wars since 1979.
I believe withdrawing our troops right now and still being able to influence the outcome in Afghanistan makes as much as sense as Sarah Palin quitting her job because she thinks she'll be more effective at lowering government spending out of office.
I understand war weariness Laszlo. I'm not some doofus who needed Ronald Reagan to buck up my spirits after Vietnam. I was proud we finally forced an end to that stupid war. I'll be happy if we can end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with their peoples hating us a little less than they did with Bush in office. I think Obama can do much better than that but that would be enough for me.
July 5, 2009 7:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey Mark. Quick comment. Canada's been in Kandahar - next to Helmand - for some years, so a lot of media attention has been paid to it here. What they really emphasize is how powerful the ties amongst the Pashtun in the region are, and how the Af-Pak border matters almost nil in many matters. As there are (Wiki say) 28 million Pashtun in Pakistan, and 13 million in Afghanistan, this may mean that some of the Taliban, even if from Pakistan, are not seen so much as "outsiders." In fact, they're almost certainly regarded as having closer links to the locals than those from Kabul, much less troops from over here.
July 5, 2009 7:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't doubt they think little of unmarked borders laid down centuries ago by long the dead British Empire Q. But regardless for most Afghanis who don't subscribe to Jerry Falwell's, er Mullah Omar's theories of government that were born and bred in Pakistani religious schools not allowing the wife out of the house to run the family stall at the local bazaar until your oldest son has enough hair to accompany her as a man while you tend the fields is a huge hardship. Not being able to get together with the rest of the town on a Saturday night to make some music or gather around the radio and listen to some show from the big city or if they're really prosperous watch Paki or Indian soap operas on the teevee sucks. Who the hell wants to live under intolerant goons?
My ex, the Ruskie/Ukrainian former card carrying member of the communist party of the USSR went to Vietnam in 1989. She was a teacher with a couple masters degrees, Spoke English, Russian, severla other Slavic languages and a smattering of French. Single, no kids, her options were limited where she could go overseas. They sure as hell didn't send unencumbered people like her to Western countries where life was better so her choices were Cuba or Vietnam. Her job was to teach Vietnamese engineering students enough Russian to get by at university in the USSR.
Even she admitted, though she pretty much hates America and Americans, (no big deal she hates everybody) that the Vietnamese preferred Americans because at least we had money to spend and would piss away billions on them. Over a decade and a half after we left they were still selling ersatz Marlboros in Ho Chi Minh City. Russians were drab, serious, broke and devoted to their ideology which was failing them and the Vietnamese. The Taliban make the Russians look like party animals.
For most Afghanis my guess, and it's only guess because I've never been there, they'd just as soon everybody went home and left them alone. But as long as everybody wants to fight over them they'll do what they've always done as a crossroads. Take any and everybody for what they can get away with as they pass through, and pledge allegiance to whomever seems to be winning this week and try to stay on their good side. They're like Henry Kissinger, they have no permanent friends only permanent interests. In their case it makes sense.
So we build them something they want to keep, whether it's a waterwheel on the local river to grind grain, a school where their kids can learn to read and count, a loom, some solar panels, a windmill, or a road to the county seat. Like I said it's not rocket science. Hell, give 'em some fiddles and mandolins.
It's gotta be better than living in the Taliban no fun zone.
July 5, 2009 9:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting bit from Wiki: USAID programmes.
Helmand was the center of a U.S. development program in the 1960s - it was even nicknamed "little America". The program laid out tree-lined streets in Lashkar Gah, built a network of irrigation canals and constructed a large hydroelectric dam. The program was abandoned when the communists seized power in 1978.
July 6, 2009 1:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
With the caveat that you can't always count on Wikipedia for the straight poop I wonder what became of the dam. In a land with only about as much water and the same crappy soil as west Texas a hydroelectric dam might do more harm than good. Don't know whether or not that's the case there.
July 6, 2009 8:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm glad you are here to speak out, Deanie. Great Post.
July 3, 2009 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well Deanie, you got me thinkin again. I am going to support My President anyway.
But you give me hope today. So much information here. I kind of liked this line:
"Drinking tea and eating goat may not seem like what Marines signed up for, but you would be surprised. They're there to protect the people, and if this is the best way to go about it, then so be it." Ha!!
You mean to tell that the New Administration and the new generals in charge are actually worried about the culture there? This is good news to me.
July 3, 2009 3:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dear Ms. Mills,
in the interest of transparency, do you not think it would have been appropriate to have informed your reader that you are the author of numerous novels? And that you wrote a lengthy piece for the Huff' Post giving reasons why people should not vote for Secretary Clinton ie., vote for Obama.
As for this new war front, I voted for Obama to get us OUT OF IRAQ. I did not vote for him to increase engagement in Afghanistan.
That said let me comment on you 'article.' Your piece reads like a romance novel. But war is not a novel. It is real life. It is built on the blood of those who fight in them. On shattered bodies and minds. "War is hell." What part of that do you not understand?
Let me quote William Tecumseh Sherman who when writing on the US civil war wrote "...This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing!...You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail... your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.
In an address to the Michigan Military Academy (19 June 1879), Sherman is reported to have said "...I’ve been where you are now and I know just how you feel. It’s entirely natural that there should beat in the breast of every one of you a hope and desire that some day you can use the skill you have acquired here.
Suppress it! You don’t know the horrible aspects of war. I’ve been through two wars and I know. I’ve seen cities and homes in ashes. I’ve seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies. I tell you, war is Hell!..."
The words of Sherman are as true today, as they were then.
And just what is this nonsense distinguishing military v. civilian undertaking. Iraq was a sovereign nation when Bush and Co. invaded it. We had no business being there. And we neither had nor do we have any right in telling Iraqis who they can and cannot have as their leaders. Iraq was not and is not the 51st state of the US. We do not get to put our puppets in leadership positions. The same applies to Afghanistan. It is not part of the US. It is a sovereign nation. We have no right meddling in their politics.
If Obama wants to prove he is manly enough to be CIC, he does not need to engage in a foreign war (ala Bush.) We have enough issues here in the US where he can 'stand tall'.
If my words are harsh, so be it. I saw, at Walter Reed, a few too many young men and women who have lost limbs, lost their bodily functions, lost their minds etc., to the senseless and shameful war in Iraq. I will not stand by now while someone tries to glorify this new full scale senseless and shameful war in Afghanistan.
I recently lost a dear friend who was a Vietnam Vet. He lived these nightmares (described in the poem below) for the rest of his life. I do not wish these nightmares on another generation.
War Is Hell
The old man fills his days out on this planet
Haunted by the fear they'll never end
Remembering the sounds of many battles
In some far off land he'll never see again
The body bags are filled and lined up waiting
For the one last ride, the one that takes them home
The one that leaves the eyes with tears a-shedding
The lucky ones are here, they're going home.
Many are left behind, some for fighting
Some so battly scattered, no one can tell
Who they are, they're just so many pieces
Left behind, just litter on that hill.
These are the things that that old man remembers
As he sits and patiently whittles out his time
His memories of family now are dimming
But not the ones of buddies left behind.
War is hell they say, who never saw it,
In the old man's mind its fresh as new mown hay
He'll remember it each day left on this planet
And then he'll take it with him to the grave.
Adrain Desaire
Copyright@2003 - Adrain Desaire
July 3, 2009 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
As for this new war front, I voted for Obama to get us OUT OF IRAQ. I did not vote for him to increase engagement in Afghanistan.
Yeah well he said through out the campaign he was going to increase troop strength in Afghanistan and go after the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
July 3, 2009 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dear Sir,
you are correct. President Obama did repeatedly say he would increase troop strength in Afghanistan to 40,000. He also repeatedly said the "surge' in Iraq had failed and he would pull all the troops out within 16 months.
President Obama has now committed 60,000 troops (and counting) to Afghanistan. He now lauds the 'surge' in Iraq and wants to employ a similar tactic in Afghanistan. And he has stated most of the troops will not be back for 19 months, and around 50,000 will stay until at least 2011. But Obama has now added a caveat. All dates and figures are subject to change and depend entirely on the situation on the ground.
July 3, 2009 7:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
He is sending another 21,000 troops to Afghanistan. He doesn't laud the surge in Iraq he lauds our soldiers' efforts. He is living by the agreement forced on the Bush Administration by the Maliki government after Obama's call for removal of US troops enabled the Iraqis to demand an end to the open ended occupation Republicans favored. Of course all dates and figures are subject to change and depend entirely on the situation on the ground. June 30th has come and gone and US troops are out of the cities. I fully expect in another 13 months most of our troops will be gone and the occupation will be over on the timetable demanded by the Iraqis.
July 3, 2009 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dear Sir,
please excuse my lack of clarity and allow me to explain my numbers. I list totals.
- Senator Obama referred to 40,000 troops total in Afghanistan (he initially said he would deploy 2-3 brigades, each brigade comprising of 3,500-4,000 troops), President Obama has now committed 60,000 troops total. Defense experts say upwards of 100,000 troops will be needed to achieve anywhere near the 'success' of Iraq.
Senator Obama said all troops out of Iraq in 16 months. President Obama now says most of the troops will leave in 19 months, but a contingent of around 50,000 troops will remain until at least 2011. Obviously our respective definition of 50,000 troops on the ground in a foreign nation are different.
Senator Obama never mentioned caveats. He did not refer to the situation on the ground. President Obama does.
Senator Obama initially said the Iraq 'surge' had failed and this was clearly stated on his campaign web-site. Sometime between 11th July 2008 - 14th July 2008, criticisms of the surge was removed. By 4th September 2008, Obama had stated the 'surge had "...succeeded beyond our wildest dreams...'
President Obama has retained the services of two proponents of a 'Iraq-like surge' for the Afghanistan theatre. They are Secretary of Defense Gates and General Petraeus.
You clearly support war in Afghanistan. I do not.
I hope we can agree to differ.
July 4, 2009 3:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
salaha, I appreciate your passion but do not presume to tell me what war is. I've sent loved ones into war far too many times and seen upfront and personal what it has meant to them and what it has done to them.
Quoting a general who died more than a century ago is well and good but until you have written a condolence letter to the mother of your son's buddy who got shot in the head by a sniper do not presume to tell me what war is.
I wrote a well-researched and well-documented piece on the new strategy that has been put forth by a new administration to try and correct some of the outrages perpetrated by the old one.
If that is perceived by some as romanticizing war or glorifying it or "emotional manipulation" than they have not read what I actually wrote, and they certainly do not "get" my intention, which I suppose would be my fault, because it is the writer's job to communicate.
However, this is an emotionally-charged issue, and people bring their own emotions to the table.
Just don't ascribe them to me.
As far as the fact that I published 10 suspense thrillers and one true-crime, wrote hundreds of newspaper and magazine articles on every subject imaginable, and have been blogging both here and at my own site, as well as Huffington Post, for the past several years is hardly a state secret to be "outed" as some sort of scathing disgrace.
Because I voted for Obama over Clinton in the primaries is to assume I hated her, and nothing could be further from the truth. I've long been a fan of hers and am thrilled that she is the secretary of state now.
If you guys want to fight old wars and old election campaigns, that's fine.
I won't do it though.
July 3, 2009 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dear Ms. Mills,
Please note, I find your response to my post most unfortunate.
Let me do away with the minor point first. The reason it would have been of value to know you are an author is that it would have explained how you pulled together this piece in the way you did, and possibly why you did. As to your political bias (mine is to the left of Lenin) that too is significant as it colors perspective.
First let me say I honor the military service your loved ones have given to the US. It is through their sacrifice that I have the privilege to say what I do.
Many of those I love, cherish and have lost, have also served this country by putting on the uniform of the US Army, US Navy and US Airforce. Your comments would imply their sacrifice is less because they served in bygone wars. WWII, Korea, Vietnam. They may mean nothing to you, but you disparage the memories of those who served there by dismissing their memories as having no value to future generations. You may think the words of a general who died over a century ago has no value but, you, in my humble opinion, are so very wrong.
When Sherman said "...You don’t know the horrible aspects of war. I’ve been through two wars and I know. I’ve seen cities and homes in ashes. I’ve seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies. I tell you, war is Hell..." was he wrong? As the seasons have passed, have wars changed? Are those words not as true today, as they were 130 years ago? Have we as a people learned nothing from those who gave the greatest of all sacrifices, there lives?
I remember repeatedly Bush saying his most difficult task was signing condolence letters and making calls to the family of our fallen warriors. Of the sadness, pain and anguish he felt after going to Walter Reed. But that did not stop him from continually sending more and more young men and women into a senseless and unjustified war. Perhaps if he had just served once, in any war theatre, he would not have engaged in such a shameless crime.
You have presented one side of the coin, one side of the argument, as to why we as a nation should begin full scale combat in Afghanistan. I respectfully disagree.
WAR IS HELL.
July 3, 2009 6:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I won't take your bait, salaha.
I am married to a Vietnam combat vet and my brother, father, brother-in-law all fought there, and at family gatherings there is hardly a member at the table who has not served in uniform, including my sister.
Your comments are deliberately provoking and I won't be provoked by them. Accusing me of disparaging any member of the service is ridiculous, as is this entire tiresome argument, because it has nothing to do, ultimately, with the war in Afghanistan, which was the subject of my post.
July 4, 2009 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dear Ms. Mills,
first and foremost, I honor the service of all our troops. I will not single out any one of my family members as being more noble than any other service member, both in the past, present, or future. Their united bravery, their selfless act of courage, have given us all the freedoms we celebrate today.
Now lets get back to your post. It was a poorly written, naive, puerile, romantic, apologist effort to justify war in Afghanistan and clearly written by someone who has no appreciation for what war is all about. Your post and subsequent comments are almost in the same tone and nasal superiority of those of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et. al. You just left out the troops being welcomed with flowers.
Instead of looking at the other persons point of view, when not hurling disparaging remarks, you use the noble and honorable service of your family members to justify your position. Like Bush, it is either your way or no way.
You remarked you post was "...a well-researched and well-documented piece on the new strategy that has been put forth by a new administration to try and correct some of the outrages perpetrated by the old one..." BULLS**T. It was one sided, rah-rah-rah, war is great, aren't we Americans the best in the world, cheerleading piece for war. Your limited research, and it was limited, can be proved with one simple name 'Gen. Stanley McChrystal.'
Google 'McChrystal, Feingold' and you will find the following "...Sen. Russell Feingold (D-WI) said late last week that then-Special Operations commander Lt. Gen. Stanley McChrystal was not direct with lawmakers at his confirmation hearing regarding his approval of harsh interrogations by personnel under his control...Under McChrystal, Special Forces personnel helped operate prisoner camps in Iraq that generated some of the most serious allegations of detainee abuse of the post-9/11 era, including severe beatings with rifle butts, burning and more. But during his Senate confirmation hearing last week, McChrystal characterized himself as "uncomfortable" with harsh interrogation methods, and said he worked to end their use. Harsh and sometimes-abusive treatment of prisoners was reportedly widespread among Special Forces personnel in Iraq at the time McChrystal became their chief, and reports indicate things changed little after he took the helm. In August 2003, one month before McChrystal assumed command of Joint Special Operations Command, the CIA reportedly barred its officers from working at Camp Nama, a JSOC-operated facility in Iraq for holding and interrogating so-called "high value" terrorism targets, because military personnel there had become so aggressive with prisoners..." (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=7855749&page=1)
President Obama hand picked Gen. McChrystal to oversee U.S. forces in Afghanistan. What a great message to send. Select someone who not only approves of but also oversaw 'enhanced interrogations' , a euphemism for TORTURE, to head US Forces Afghanistan.
Was this just an oversight in '...your well researched article...' or did it not fit into the rosy little scenario you were painting.
As for that little ditty re, your sister-in-law, USO and care packages. What banality. A leader leads through example and respect, never through intimidation. Their troops want them in their midst, standing there with them, be it in the heat of battle or at a USO just as they are about to leave.
And if you really want to see what I think is a well written, fact based post, please read the following.
Shattered in the shadow of death: The Mail joins our troops on their biggest ever assault against the Taliban
By RICHARD PENDLEBURY and JAMIE WISEMAN
Last updated at 1:50 AM on 04th July 2009
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197372/Shattered-shadow-death-The-Mail-joins-troops-biggest-assault-Taliban.html
I could ask you again what part of 'WAR IS HELL' do you not understand but, I now know it would be an exercise in futility.
I know have used some harsh words to describe you post. For that I will not apologize. Another solider lies dead in the killing fields of Iraq and Afghanistan. I morn their loss for these senseless wars.
My country, my country, right or wrong, my country. But there are times I still hang my head in shame.