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LET'S TAKE CARE WE DON'T TURN INTO "NEOLIBS"


For a few weeks now, I've been watching the increasingly heated arguments pouring forth from the political left on President Obama and steps he has taken or not taken since his moving swearing-in ceremony on January 20th.

He's been accused of letting down gay-rights activists, abortion-rights activists, peace activists, labor unions, and just about every other liberal constituency there is.  He's not ending the war in Iraq fast enough.  He's sending more troops to Afghanistan without an exit strategy.  He's morphing into George W. Bush on national security.  He won't release the torture photos.  He's putting Republicans in his Cabinet.  He kept Bob Gates at the Pentagon.  He's appointed Wall Street foxes to watch over the Wall Street henhouse.  He caved in on Republican demands for tax cuts when he should have given more bail-out money to social programs...and, well, I could list more but I've only got so much space and time.

Today, I watched his speech on the closing of Guantanamo and other national security measures.  To me, the speech had the feel of an in-depth law school lecture, in that he specified, for instance, the five types of Guantanamo detainees, spelled out legal options that were and were not available for dealing with them, explained why he agreed to release torture memos but not the accompanying photographs, detailed the successful prosecutions of other torture detainees on American soil and how most of these detainees can be successfully tried and incarcerated in this country. 

He also dwelled on those who are not only highly dangerous to American citizens, should they be released, but whose cases were so badly fucked up by the Bush administration that now we have no choice but to either try them by military tribunals or keep them imprisoned indefinitely, for the protection of this country.  And he pointed out improvements that have been made on tribunals for when they do crank up again.  He laid out how he intends to preserve accountability and transparency in regards to Intelligence-collection and dissemination, but told in no uncertain terms what needs to remain secret and why.

I thought the speech was a triumphant SMACKDOWN of Dick Cheney.  I thought the timing of it--just late enough to run over into Cheney's timeslot--was brilliant, because Dick Cheney is a has-been whose time in power is over, period.  Barack Obama is president of the United States.  The whole split-screen dichotomy set up by the media to set the whole situation into a debate between equals was completely fictional, a construct that made their story-telling more dramatic--which the president also alluded to.

There was no real reason to even televise Dick Cheney's speech.  He no longer makes public policy--THANK GOD--and, as Condoleeza Rice herself put it--they had eight years to try their way, and it's over now.  It's time for our side to see if we can do better.

Obama is the president of the United States.  In the early months of the first Bush administration, did the media hang on every word out of Al Gore's mouth?  Did they televise HIS speeches?

Uh, no.  That didn't happen until the man had won an Oscar AND the Nobel Prize.

So I turned off the television because I didn't care what the talking-heads thought and I had no desire to hear anything Dick Cheney has to say.  He is a proven liar, period.  This is about historical revisionism, putting clothing on a naked emporer.  The man cannot be trusted and does not deserve the media attention he basks in every time he farts.

I did, however, turn to the blogosphere, and right away, I read comments from liberals claiming that Obama's speech was "window dressing" and "bells and whistles" and "mimics George Bush," was "inconsistent" with the president's own values, and so on.  And on.  And on.

There is real anger on the left because so many believe that Obama is in some way betraying them.

Now, let me start by saying, the man has only been in office a few months.  We've been out of power, basically, since 1994, when Newt Gingrich, Tom DeLay, and the right wing took over congress.  They cut Bill Clinton's nuts almost immediately with phony controversies, endless investigations, and ultimately, even tried to remove him from office.

In spite of that, Clinton had many admirable accomplishments, but for the most part, the neocons set the agenda and the debate, and the media followed along because they did not seem to realize that they were being played.

When George W. Bush came into office, he pretended to be a moderate who wanted to change the tone of Washington and work across the aisle for such things as education reform and immigration reform, but in truth, he moved quickly to embrace and encourage the right wing of his party because it was a political gold mine for him.  The evangelical Christians amounted to a voting block similar to when a frat rat runs for president of the student body on-campus, and his college fraternity votes en masse for him--same thing. 

By the time 2004 rolled around, he wasn't even pretending anymore.

The results have been absolute disaster for our country, and I don't need to enumerate the reasons why.  We all know why.  Three-quarters of the country's population knows why.  Hell, the whold damn WORLD knows why.

So, we have many, many legitimate interests over here that we are SALIVATING to make right: gays in the military, Bush-abuse investigations, universal health care, global warming urgency, and so on.  It's natural that we would all convene on our new president like a hoarde of starving peasants, demanding bread at the castle gates and threatening to storm the moat NOW if we don't get it.

Now, Obama was accused all through the campaign of being a flaming radical screaming liberal, and although he did have a liberal voting record (which he joked was pretty much a reaction against Bush policies), in truth, in both his books and all through the campaign, he emphasized pragmatism, common sense, and practicality over idealism or demagoguery.

After he took office, he did immediately take steps that please his liberal base, because he believed it was in the nation's interest to do so--signing the Lilly Ledbetter Act, freeing up stem cell research, removing abortion gag rules from foreign aid, as well as restrictions on American health care added in the final days of Bush's term, and so on.

He laid out a massive, groundbreaking agenda that included not just repairing the bankrupted nation, but setting up health care for everyone, establishing a sensible energy policy, and shoring up a shoddy educational system--these were all important, he said, to put us on a "new foundation" designed to bring the creaking country into the 21st century and ensure a prosperous and secure future.

I have no doubt that he cares as deeply about, say, gays in the military, as he did before, and I fully expect him to address that issue once he's gotten this powerful, important foundation laid.  He just does not want to squander his political capital--which he probably thinks will hold out maybe a year--on side debates that are a distraction from these important issues that will effect us ALL.

Once he's gotten those things established, he can afford to deal with these other needs.  He just can't do every single solitary thing all at one time, within four months of taking office.  The man is dancing as fast as he can.

And in fact, he's already done quite a bit, really.

But when it came to thornier issues, tougher problems, more complicated situations, Obama did reach across the aisle, as he said he would do, for ideas, for appointments, and for support.

And as we know, the Republicans rewarded him by turning their backs on him and making it their mission in life to obstruct him no matter WHAT he does.

That's fine, if that's what they wanna do.  The American people are paying closer attention these days than they were in the 90's, and they're not appreciating the Party of No.  In fact, they have become the Incredible Shrinking Party.

Now, I'm not saying that Democrats should rubber-stamp everything Obama wants to do, and he has not asked for that.  Healthy debate, even within one party, is essential in a democracy, and if the Republicans actually had any good ideas worth considering, I'd consider them.  They just don't happen to have any.

But for the "liberal base" to rise up against their own president with constant ongoing howls of protest over every step he takes that is not strictly liberal or progressive, is to risk OUR base becoming as deaf, dumb, and blind over the long run as THEIR base did.

When I was thinking about this blogpost, I went over to Wickipedia and looked up the term "neoconservative."

And I was surprised to learn that, when the term was first invented back in 1921, it was in response to liberals who had "moved too far to the right."

That's right.  Originally, the term referred to liberals who were perceived as being too conservative.

But as we know, the definition changed:

 

"The term neoconservative, first coined at least as early as 1921, was used at one time as a criticism against liberals who had "moved to the right".[5][6] Michael Harrington, a democratic socialist, coined the current sense of the term neoconservative in a 1973 Dissent magazine article concerning welfare policy.[7] According to E. J. Dionne, the nascent neoconservatives were driven by "the notion that liberalism" had failed and "no longer knew what it was talking about."[8] The term "neoconservative" was the subject of increased media coverage during the presidency of George W. Bush.[9][10] with particular focus on a perceived neoconservative influence on American foreign policy, as part of the Bush Doctrine.[11] "

 

So, in other words, during those years that we were running people for president like Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis, and after a Democratic presidency that was perceived as having been weak (Jimmy Carter), the conservatives smelled blood in the water.  Our Democrats in congress were getting kicked out on ethics violations right and left during those years.  We were stagnant, unable to come up with new ideas, and our presidential candidates were boring and easy to mock.

In 1980, they found a very charismatic, popular politician to run for president and the rest, as they say, is history.

So now the pages have been flipped upside-down.  Just as Democrats threatened to become irrelevent for the better part of a generation--even with Bill Clinton in the White House--now it is the Republican's turn to wander in the wilderness.

Most everyone who has given it any thought believe that what brought down the Bush administration was the fact that they put ideology above all else.  They put ideology above GOVERNING.  They put ideology above SERVING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

And during that time, when they were in power in the White House, congress, and the Supreme Court, they ran Washington with a religious zeal.  They even started a WAR that they thought of as some sort of righteous fury against evil.

This is what it means to be an ideologue.

Now we are the ones with a charismatic, popular president.  We are the ones in charge of the White House and congress, with chances to appoint more than one new Supreme Court justice over the next few years.

It is so easy to do that of which we were so critical during the Bush years.

It is so easy to turn into what I call "neolibs."

In this case, that would be a party in which purity to ideals rather than pragmatic governing, righteous indignation over common sense compromise, and closing off all reasoning against opposing points of view can not only take hold, but it can bring down our party just as it is bringing down the Republicans.

We can wind up being as self-righteous, in our own way, as they ever were in theirs.  We just don't mask ours behind religion, but it's there.

As it is right now, in congress anyway, we've got a pretty diverse party, with Blue Dogs as well as liberals, and Independents who caucus with us most of the time.

Understand:  I am not saying that conservative Democrats or so-called "centrist" Democrats or Independents are always right--in fact, they've been driving me crazy a great deal of the time.  This nonsense about not giving Obama the money to shut down Guantanamo because they're afraid terrorists will be running through their backyards is just ridiculous.

Understand:  I am not saying that I agree with everything President Obama does and everything he says.  I'd like to see him form a "truth commission" about torture similar to the 9/11 one, for instance.

But what I AM saying is that idealism is wonderful on its face, but it's a lousy way to govern.

We have an entire generation of young people who grew up during the Clinton years.  They have absolutely NO IDEA what it means for congress to FUNCTION.

Those of us who are, ahem, a bit older--we remember Lyndon Johnson and Sam Rayburn twisting arms and making deals with Southern Democrats to push through legislation on civil rights, medicaid and medicare, and voting rights.

We remember Ted Kennedy working hand-in-glove with Ronald Reagan on education and other matters.

We remember deal-making, deal-breaking, compromise and working-out of the big, important issues.

We remember when things like the Environmental Protection Agency DID NOT EVEN EXIST.

The business of governing is messy, and it's dirty.  A president and his party have a platform that, after they take office, becomes an agenda, and they take it before congress where all HELL breaks loose.

There is politicking and grandstanding and nonsense right and left, up and down, silly stuff that can hold up appointments in committee and get important bills watered down.  Massive egos on little bitty men and women.

But when it is done RIGHT, this process--messy and dirty though it may be--winds up producing something that can be very, very good.

A president knows, going in, that he or she is not going to get everything they want.  They know that they have to be willing to be flexible, to give and to take, to move the bar when necessary and stand firm when they have to.  (Goes without saying I'm not talking about George W. Bush and his rubber-stamp neocon minions here.)

They have to do this because they know, as Barack Obama has expressed so eloquently, that this great big sprawling teeming country is not all of one mind.  There are people on one side of a debate, people on the other side of that same debate, people in the middle who have not solidified their views yet, people who don't care anyway, and people who are willing to look at both arguments and find merit in each.

For Barack Obama to pull a George W. Bush, and grab ahold of his power like it's some kind of global joystick, laughing like Chill Wills on the Bomb--is to alienate a good many of the people who are trusting him to lead them in a dangerous, difficult time.

He HAS to listen to all sides.

There are times when he HAS to change his mind.

There are times when he HAS to take measures he really does not want to take.

And there are times when he knows that, if he gives on THIS issue here or that one there...then when something absolutely ESSENTIAL to the health and welfare of this nation comes along, THEN he can take a stand, give no quarter, and call in his chits.

We can disagree with him, absolutely, that's what being an American IS.  But to DEMAND that he follow our ideology in JUST THIS WAY, and when he doesn't, attack him and his presidency...well, that means that we are in danger of becoming what I call "neolibs."

And that's just as bad, in its way, as the neocons were in theirs.

What I'm saying is that, if we want to make a truly progressive sea-change in this nation--its economy, national security, health care, energy, and educational systems--if we want to see the rights of everyone respected and take giant steps toward securing a peaceful world, then we are going to have to be PATIENT, and we are going to have to be PRAGMATIC, and we are going to have to understand that we won't get every single little thing we want all the time.

We can disagree with our president, but when it gets right down to it, we're going to have to TRUST him.

One final point.

For the past six months, I've been printing up articles from various newspapers and news magazines on Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.  I was too busy during that time to read them when I printed them up, so I had three stacks of articles several inches thick.

Recently, I took a few days and read them through.  All of them.  Starting back in October, before Obama was elected, up to this week.

And when I went to sleep at night, I was racked by nightmares.  Bloody, horrible nightmares.

What I learned is that this mess in the Middle East is far, far more complex and fragile than most people even realize.  It's a tinderbox, and the whole world is watching one man and his staff to bring some semblance of peace to the area.

The whole world.

Meanwhile, our economy is still recovering from its own tsunami, and just about every single area of government touched by the Bush administration was wrecked.  Just wrecked, by political cronyism, ineptitude, neglect, and neocon idealism.

Every night before he goes to bed, Barack Obama reads through the day's briefings on all these situations.  He is juggling a thousand balls in the air at one time.

The pressure must be unimaginable.  I mean, I had nightmares from reading newspaper and newsmagazine articles.  Imagine if I'd been reading Intelligence briefings.

He is forced to make decisions that MUST be designed to keep those balls in the air, because to drop even one of them could mean catastrophe for our nation and for the rest of the planet.

So for God's sake.  Give the man a break.


180 Comments

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Well, let me summarize your blog.

You are terrified of Dick Cheney and you blame that on the left.

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And you, my bell blue, are a simplistic kneejerk fool who stands for nothing. I am so tired of people like you, I really am. What do you stand for? Please let us know. What helps you get out of bed in the morning, brush your teeth, walk outside? What do you stand for? We know what you are against, which is EVERYTHING. What are you for? If you can't answer that, you aren't human.

Do you really think that Deanie, who has watched her family fight Dickhead's wars, is afraid of him? Do you really think that? Do you really? Words on a blog are easy, aren't they? Chicken shit. Or, are you your own kind of Chicken Hawk? You are more of an ass than I could have imagined.

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Whoa.

Chicken wot? Come on Kate!

I object.

Look, I've been reading bluebell for a long long time. I used to more often than not agree with them (her--I think). The thing is, I kind of understand where blue is coming from. See, we were so abused for so long, so very long, and then we got hope.

It was a grand thing.

Right now, blue is feeling betrayed, a LOT. I understand that. I saw it coming. I think, the problem was that folks like blue invested a lot of feeling into the Prez, how could they not? Here was a man that seemed the anti-thesis to everything Bush.

Unlike blue, here, I never bought into that, so since I never put Obama on that pedestal of "savior", he didn't have as far to fall for me, and in fact is exactly what I always thought, a centrist.

What I wish idealists like blue would see is that Obama, unlike many centrists, has a conscious. Geez, he's begging us to use our voices to shape policy. I wish blue could take all that angst and negative energy and channel it into working with Obama.

For a lot of folks, it's very hard.

They are our friends, though. What they's got is PTSD. I think, we shouldn't knock them. They are crying in the widrness and their voices, their pure voices, help to anchor the rest of us.

Just sayin'


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Bwak: I'd like to agree with you, but I can't. Bluebell has never been behind Obama. Not really. And if he/she/it thought Obama was Jesus, well, what can I say? Who was drinking the Koolaid? Bluebell never has ANYTHING positive to say. Stem cell research? Silence. Children's health insurance? Silence. Emissions standards? Silence. Equal pay for women? Silence. Early withdrawal of troops? Silence. Reaching out internationally? Silence. The list goes on. The fact is, I don't belong here anymore. This is the site of piss and moan. So, I'll be checking out. I don't need all the negativity.

Feeling betrayed? Oh, please, grow up. A President is not a boyfriend. How much do people like Bluebell do in their own community to make life better? I'd like to hear about that.

No, I don't care what they do or say. I'm outta here. I've had enough.

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Reconsider.

I have limited time to spend at TPM these days, and I regret having to spend much of what little I have skirting self-immolating blog posts and toxic discussion threads.

But there are a lot of folks here who do not view "moderate" as a term of opprobrium, and whose thoughtful criticism invites challenge and reasoned discussion. Engaging them is not always easy, but it's worth the effort. I'd hate to see the opportunity go down the tubes.

Deanie's blog is on the money. Governing is ugly. It's agonizing and infuriating to walk out of an issue with barely half what you came in with and call it a victory. It's a damn shame that it may take eight years to undo even part of the catastrophe we inherited -- and that too much of what needs to be accomplished will be left undone in the process. But that's the way it is.

Yes, the risk of pragmatism is embracing the available at the expense of the possible. But branding Obama as Bush III or trying to compare photographs of prisoner abuse to photographs of the Holocaust isn't holding the president accountable. It's empty rhetoric. It's self-defeating. Avoid it, but don't withdraw. Pick your battles and fight the good fight.

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Yes please do reconsider. I like to read your smackdowns, besides you make some really good points that give me pause. I think the cafe is much better with more mainstream voices.

That being said I'd like to mount a quick defense of us crazy leftists. I argue that in order for Obama to move the country left he needs to govern from the center. That means most of us around here have to be mad at him and vocalize it so the rest of the country can feel okay about moving a little towards us. Something has to balance out the power of Fox. That something is us,(except we should really try and get some more folks on the TeeVee).

We need our progressive caucus in congress to start acting like loons using threats to push the center left. What if the progressive caucus stood up and made some threats on the public option. They need to act like a green party would in a parliamentary system and negotiate over what they care about. We can't continue to have a system where the media tell the antagonism between the centrist dems and the out of power republicans as the whole story.

We need some commie crazies yelling for public ownership of our resources and airwaves, income redistubution, some rabble rousing investigations of financial wrong doing-loudly embarrassing those who have had their way with our purse for the last eight years. Without them the center stays where it is.

You rightly point out that Obama can't become the face of the crazy left. Agreed, but what pushes the populace in that direction if we all just sit around worshiping him and making excuses about all the trouble he inherited....

crickets...

Its up to us to be the crazies, if we get loud enough maybe we might even change some of the perceived wisdom. Have you noticed Rich's or Dowd's recent columns they too are pushing Obama from the left. So is Josh, its what has to happen.

Or maybe we are just fatalists.

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Well said, until the inevitable juxtaposition of cool, hip "crazy lefties" and hero-worshiping Obamabot drones.

Trouble is, too many discussion threads are starting to look like Sherman's march. Too often overheated rhetoric obscures legitimate arguments and hijacks discussion. There are too many temple-throbbing hatefests and pile-on free-for-alls.

I'll hold my progressive values up to anyone's. But I find myself avoiding certain blogs on certain topics if I happen to agree with the president. I'm neither a drone nor an idiot.

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Second all the above with the exception of the originating comment.

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Owww Jason- and I though you and I were on roll there for a while.

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The original comment was by bluebell. I agree with your position on this as it seems more reasonable and less polemic. We are indeed on a roll.

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Actually, Sherman's march was really well organized and executed. Certainly not the type of uncontrolled chaos most Southerners prefer to remember.

These animated threads are what blogging is all about; considering MANY opinions, information and angles from numerous sources, and formulating logical conclusions from that interaction.

Except for those disingenuous bloggers who pose and sock-puppet and troll to promote their prejudices, this place is full of spontaneous logic that rises from the ashes of some of these incendiary threads.

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Actually I'm not a Southerner, I just live in the South. The discipline of Sherman's march is part of the metaphor, though it was the flamethrowing ruthlessness I was originally trying to capture.

Yes, spontaneous logic often emerges here, and sometimes even from incendiary discussion threads. It's one of the reasons I keep coming back to TPM. That along with the folks -- far left, left, center, and right-of-center -- whose voices I enjoy and whose opinions I respect and value.

However, too often lately issues where there is lots of room for discussion and debate become echo chambers, with folks falling over one another to see who can be the most strident, most incendiary and most narrow-minded.

Whatever. Wade on in if that's your thing. My point is that ideological bigotry is driving some of the more moderate voices off the reservation and I think that's a shame.

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Yes, you certainly express my thoughts and feelings here. Obama does not pretend to be The Decider. He wishes to be a leader. To get people to follow him.

He is attempting to work with the Congress.

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Please do stay KateO. I agree that the level of discourse has degenerated around here. Many of the people who contributed during the campaign and made it so great have moved on. TPM is the poorer because of their absence. But don't give up yet. Let's see if we can turn it around. It might be worth it. If not I'll be headed out the door right behind you.

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= ad hominem strawman

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Great post, and I share your view.

I too am dismayed by the response by many in the blogosphere.

Lefty bloggers and interest groups spend all of their time handwringing about whether Obama is letting them down. After the 1000th time of hearing how "disappointed" and "just like Bush", many of us wonder, why are you still here?

More importantly, behind the scenes pressure on pols only goes so far. Dick Cheney and the GOP have been spinning their propaganda for weeks, mostly unopposed, in the public sphere. Meanwhile groups like HRW which should have been excoriating Cheney yesterday on the TV, are talking to TPM about their "disappointment".

I haven't seen much effort at all to win this debate in the public and media. The torture-advocates, the fearmongers and rightwing spin, spin, spin, and nobody is countering it. Sometimes it seems like Obama alone is against these forces. Meanwhile, lefty bloggers and interest groups -- ACLU, HRW, etc. etc, spend all of their time attacking Obama. Seriously, wtf?

Maybe they could spend a larger portion of their energy countering the rightwing propaganda machine, and its lies and spin.

The gitmo vote was a warning that if we don't win the debate, there won't be political will and space for congresscritters to do the right thing, regardless of what Obama says.

The left risks losing the public debate.

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"Meanwhile, lefty bloggers... spend all of their time attacking Obama." "And not enough countering the rightwing propaganda machine, its lies and spin."

Does your brain hurt when you say things like that? Kerchief on a bit too tight? Related at all to the Gumby family?

Though I do know your English teacher must be very proud of your ability to work the term "handwringing" into almost all your responses. Bit of a winner, that one, eh? You probably don't even stop to consider how hard it is to type and wring ones hands at the same time, do you?

However. I do congratulate you on perfectly fitting the mood created by this post. After all, if there's one thing those Left-Wing NeoLib Bloggers are, it's handwringers.

Well, and bed-wetters. But let's leave that for next week.

GONG!

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Wow! I've been trying to write a comment for the past 10 minutes and can't come up with a compliment worthy of this post. You said everything and I mean everything that I have been feeling and saying since January.

As a newbie to politics and not well versed in history, I was shocked that much older, more intelligent and more experienced Liberals didn't see what they were doing or becoming. Bush pandered to his base, he acted as if he had absolute power and look where that got him and this country. Now the Left has been pushing Obama to do the same thing. Some say they are disappointed in Obama, but I'm disappointed in the Left as I expected them to be above this kind of behavior.

Your post was great. period.

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"Bush pandered to his base and acted as if he had absolute power and look where it got him and this country. Now the left is pushing Obama to do the same thing."
At that I feel obliged to say that I honestly don't believe Bush/Cheney et al had the best interests of America and her people in their hearts, minds and plans. I believe that the things the Bushies did that have been billed as failures had exactly the outcomes that were intended.
Liberals may get some or even a lot wrong but we by and large have good intentions.
Obama is certainly a better politician than we've seen in a generation and seems to have a way of stepping in a back door to where he wants to be but he could do worse than to grab his mandate and run to the left in much the way Bush ran right. The big difference is that his sucesses wold bring America to his side instead of drive them away.
All that said: I like this posting and think it is pretty much on the mark since the man does seem to be playing a big game of chess. He certainly is beyond my intellect. God bless him and keep him. I believe he has good intent and ability.

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Oh, and don't pay attention to immature posts like Bluebell's.

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Oh, wow Rachel is on a roll! Arrest her now!! She is a NEOLIB! She must be preventively and indefinitely detained lest she advocate adherence to the US Constitution and all of its retro values.

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You should just be quiet now.

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Why should she be quiet? She is fiercely debating the original poster, something I feel sure she welcomes, and is well equipped to take on. It is only you who resorted to base insults when you were unable to find a civilized thought to post. I could also add that Bluebell has been commenting here for a long time, but I don't believe seniority counts for anything here.

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She isn't "fiercely debating" anything. S/he is being contrary and belittling and sarcastic for no reason. Deanie didn't call for anyone to stop making their opinion heard or get locked up. She called for having a sense of dignity and propriety and history when making critiques. She also called on liberals to be a little more patient and pragmatic than they have been in the past.

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I gotta agree with you. My first impression was that bluebell didn't bother to read the whole blog, skimmed it, and then made a short sarcastic response. I'm probably wrong, but it was my impression.

Debate means you give your piece but also listen to the other. Otherwise it's just a gong going off somewhere.

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Not really!

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We can disagree with our president, but when it gets right down to it, we're going to have to TRUST him.

Does it really matter whether we trust in him or not? Obama's going to do what he's going to do, and the repercussions will follow, good and bad, regardless of our trust.

I figure that my role is to live my life, excel at my career, and embrace life's meaning as I understand it. But as a voter and politically conscious citizen, I try to take positions on things that are important to me, communicate them to my representatives, and--when it's urgent enough and I have time--become an "activist" about it. None of those positions have anything to do with Americans feeling united under a great president. They have to do with Americans being able to live fairly, healthily, securely, and peacefully.

Reading back at what I've written, I see that a lot of this isn't directed at you--just stuff that's been weighing on my mind.

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I think you've made a really terrific point there. Urgency is very much what it's about with me. Now, I totally get that not everyone is going to feel a sense a urgency about all issues or about the same issues I do and others come to this from the wonky abstraction writing peer reviewed publications and books, others follow party, others follow a charismatic leader. We're not all here for the same purpose.

Obama may be Jesus but I'd like to think he needs a few John the Baptists as well. Hmmm...Maybe we could call ourselves John the Baptists...Could have crossover appeal to the other side...

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My opinion is that when the economy went into the cellar, Obama's priorities shifted. So, his urgency is to get people working vs. working to get rid of "don't ask don't tell" or repeal the "Patriot my ass Act". I think he'll get to more things that we care about with time.

But I don't think we have to trust him. Screw that. Why trust any President? Congress is supposed to be the watch dog, and we have Reid as one of those doing the watching? I see no difference between Bush's Rubber Stamp Republican Congress and our current Rubber Stamp Democratic Congress. Where Congress lost their will to do their job, I've no clue.

So it falls on us to make pressure to get what we want done. But I'm not going to be bitter until we've a couple years behind us.

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If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's probably a duck.

You point out rightly that Obama has reached out to the Republican right and they turned their backs on him in return. Not very friendly is it? Not the way to curry favor is it? Not the way to build bridges is it? No, it isn't.

So you advise liberals and the left in general who have reached out to Obama, who are actually responsible for his being elected,and whom he has repeatedly turned his back on to keep their mouths shut. You apparently have not seen this DC Democrat act before. Well, plenty of us have and we recall what happens if you don't object and when you don't point out the hypocrisy and that is you get more of the same DLC style pro-corporate, Republican lite policies.

It's true he has only been in a few short months and the only positions he has repudiated are those that are most important to the people who fought hardest to get rid of Bush and to restore the rule of law. The only groups he has smeared (as he did today implying the left doesn't care about national security) are those who continue to favor an actual return to the rule of law as opposed to an Obamaized version of Bush's policies. That is reprehensible, cowardly and typical of the DLC sort of Democrats who are running the Obama administration. What use is it supporting the Democrats when so little changes if they are elected? Yes, there are marginal differences, but if the core and important things remain unchanged what have you really won? the hypocrisy is appalling.

No, what is needed is for the left to crank up the opposition and become exceedingly vocal and to push the President and embarass him to the point where he will be made to be good for his word. To come to heel, mute our criticisms, fall in line and do not criticize dear leader is precisely what the Republican base did, yet you attribute disagreeing with the leader as aping the neocons. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Change is when something actually changes. Change is not achieved because there is a face at the top or a new leader who claims the powers of an emperor. We need a President, not a king. Presidents don't indefinitely detain people and they don't claim powers they don't have. My allegiance is to the Constitution, not to any party and not to any President and that is where my allegiance will remain. Because of that I see it as my duty to criticize under Obama the abhorrent policies and practices I criticized under Bush and to be honest about the fact that it is happening instead of making excuses for those rotten policies simply because it's our guy now.

The fact that Obama is not as bad as Bush and/or Cheney is cold comfort to those who will suffer under the same bad policies continued by Obama. It is also of no assistance in restoring the Constitution when you pick and choose which Bush era crimes you will repeal and renounce and which that you will not.

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Very good response, as usual, and I can only add that I agree with every word of it.

A corollary to that is that we who are proud activists have a different job to do than those who are not. Our job is to advocate our positions as well as we can. It is not, and never will be to act as a cheerleader for one of our own who wins an election. Once the election was over I ceased to be an Obama "supporter" and became an activist again, intent on pushing him as far towards my positions as possible. We should all do that.

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Well said! Yes, in the end, the goal of putting the country back on track is more important than Obama, who was elected ONLY because he promised to deliver those goals. I didn't drink the Kool-Aid, I don't worship at Obama's feet, I care only about DOING the right thing, and if Obama and the Congress MAJORITY aren't DELIVERING, I have every intention to hold his and the Dems' feet to the fire. What IF it is true that there is only ONE Party in Washington after all?

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Well said Hoppy!

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Please don't pretend like you ever supported him or have ever once even given him the benefit of the doubt. Some of us were here during the primaries. You have always interpreted everything he's done or said in the worst possible light. And given that, presuming to speak for those who did support him and are now, for whatever reason, disappointed is, well, presumptious.

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Exactly right, Steve. The "left" didn't elect Obama - right-leaning independents and conscientious republicans elected Obama.

Without those votes, probably 20 percent of his total, we are talking about President McCain and Vice President Palin. I think I just died a little inside just thinking about that sad, sorry alternate reality.

The revisionist history has already begun, even though the Internet doesn't forget.

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Your blind and unquestioning loyalty is the glue that holds tyranny together.

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Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about, right there when I referenced the "always assuming the worst." Thanks for the illuminating, if unintentional, self-parody.

But while I get that you're critiqing my entire POV rather than responding to my specific point, I also can't help but notice that you failed to address my specific point.

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Your only point ever is that your leader can do no wrong. You are a mindless uncritical follower which is your right but don't scold me for not adopting your tunnel vision. You are a sheep bleeting out your loyalty at every opportunity. Well good for you. Follow the herd, but I'll use some independent thought and judgment thanks and I'll criticize any politician when they deserve it, regardless of party. You just stay in line and follow the leader, but don't expect everyone to surrender their own judgment or their civil liberties because the guy they voted for says "trust me."

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"Follow the herd, but I'll use some independent thought and judgment thanks and I'll criticize any politician when they deserve it, regardless of party."

You are SOOOO independent, oleeb. LOL.

Seriously, you do understand that you live in a representative democracy, don't you? That public opinion matters, because it translates into votes, right? And, that 85 - 90% of Americans probably fear that Obama is moving to "the left" too fast for their comfort level, not too slowly?

You respond to anyone who suggests giving Obama some time to successfully implement policies he has prioritized, and to then build on that success, by calling them mindless sheep.

Well, your outrage and your certainty of your own righteousness is duly noted. Now fuck off.

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"85 - 90% of Americans probably fear that Obama is moving to "the left" too fast for their comfort."

Wow. I did not know that.

What about the other 35%?

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Fair enough, I can't substantiate that number, although I strongly suspect that Obama is moving leftward as quickly as he feels that Congress and public opinion will permit.

And you have to be living under a rock to not see the amount of play that the Cheney v. Obama cage match is getting. That, combined with the Democrats' total abandonment of Obama on funding for the closing of Gitmo sets up a very unhealthy dynamic for any true reworking of our anti-terror policy.

Or do you draw a different conclusion from the outcry that his (in the opinion of many commenters here) totally inadequate revisions to the Bush-Cheney policies has generated in the media?

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Deanie: TPM has been taken over by the fatalistic left wing. I don't think you should post here anymore, as much as I love you. Posting here is like diving into hydrochloric acid. These people would shit on a million dollar bill.

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Speak for yourself, Katie...I would NEVER poop on a million dollar bill!

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Stilli: That's because you have some sense. But honestly, I don't recognize this place anymore. There a lots of feel good posts about pleasant things, well written and all that, but the political stuff is over run with left wing neolibs, as Deanie put it. Offputting, and not the place for me anymore. I'll be leaving now.

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=(

I will miss you Kate

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I'll miss you too. You have been a friend. But this is not a good place for me anymore. Too negative. I had enough of that in the 8 years. I like hope. It's a good thing. See you!

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Well, I'm sorry to hear that Kate...maybe after a break you'll be ready to come back...I'll miss you!

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That is two strikes - announcements that you are leaving. You get one more.

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wow.. This is about one of the most immature posts I've come across here.

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Don't allow the exception to somehow become the rule. I would say the majority of people around here, whether or not I agree with their positions, are willing to approach a debate as a conversation rather than a confrontation. There are a couple of assholes around, but far from a quorum.

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Deanie's correct. We need to calm down.

Though I suspect, from the length and breadth of the post, she had probably just watched Pulp Fiction:

"We should have shotguns for this kind of deal."

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Deanie, this is a home run in my book...I have so many things I could bitch about, but the Pres is just one man...He can't change the whole fargin' government overnight.

Yeah, we need to keep holding his feet to the fire, but abandon him? No way. I am 100% convinced if this man cannot make a meaningful difference in the way this country is run, we may as well pack it in and start looking for another country, because it can't be done...

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Why do his supporters always say we must hold his feet to the fire, but rarely any mention of having his back? Where's the mighty Left, that claims responsibility for getting him elected, when it comes to members of Congress who block or water down Obama's proposals?

Comment not personally directed at you, the holding his feet to the fire line just got to me.

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I guess I didn't make myself clear enough...I support the President, big time. I don't agree w/ everything he has said and done, but I know that if we have a chance at getting this right, he's it. If we don't "hold his feet to the fire" he won't know what is important to us, and what we are merely paying lip-service to. Next time I won't say "feet to the fire" w/o a message of support as well...I can't expect everyone to just "know" I have his back...but I do.

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Think carefully about what it means when we are "having his back" and when we "hold his feet to the fire" - in the former instance, the American people are saying to Obama "You have our support, we turned against Bush and the NeoCons to elect you because you PROMISED Change, now heal the country, reverse the damage" but now that Obama is NOT delivering, renegading on transparency, contravening a court ruling even, didn't put a stop to Gitmo torture, escalated aggression in Afghanistan and Iraq, we HAVE to "hold his feet to the fire". There are issues that would take longer to work out, eg. Healthcare, stem-cell research, etc., most of those you accuse of beating down on the Trusted One are not intransigent about them, but INEXPLICABLY, wrt issues like Stopping Torture and releasing the photographic EVIDENCE, dealing with Wall St, etc., when he has the wind on his back, Obama REFUSES to side with the American people.

No one should just TRUST their leaders, the only thing you can trust are PRINCIPLES. Leaders are to be TRUSTED insofar as they ADHERE to Principles and the Rule of Law. No matter how "likeable" and rhetorically convincing a politician, you have to judge them by their ACTION, not words. Here, some of us are doing just that, whereas many others are demanding from us "faith", "trust", etc., that Obama WILL do the right thing, as if they are clairvoyant.

In the end, I'm TIRED of hearing SPEECHES, fine words, all, though these days they sound like beseeching on behalf of the status quo, and NOT seeing CONCRETE action, especially those that are already put on the table, supported by the court and public opinion.

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Writing a bunch of words in ALL CAPS doesn't make your comment any less murky.

No president is going to do everything, all at once. That is an impossible task in a 4 trillion dollar a year organization. They will make priorities and set out a game plan and then execute on that plan to the best of their ability.

Complain all you want, but without a huge turnover in Congress, where most of this work will be done, Obama will be very limited in what he is able to deliver.

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I use caps in places because people just don't pay ATTENTION.

Eg. Your post.."No president is going to do everything, all at once. That is an impossible task in a 4 trillion dollar a year organization. They will make priorities and set out a game plan and then execute on that plan to the best of their ability."

If you had read my post, it said exactly that, that no one is expecting him to "do everything" (no caps, are quotation marks ok???). However, there are certain things he can do "at once", with immediate effect, at no cost, eg. stopping torture at Gitmo, "accept the court ruling" and deliver on his promise to release photographic evidence of torture, act tougher with Wall St. and secure a better deal for taxpayers. He's got the wide support he needs from the American people, that was his very mandate. He wouldn't leave his progressive supporters from the ACLU, CCR, etc., feeling somewhat betrayed.

This is not the only strawman, that Obama's critics are angry because they expected him to do "everything".

The worse is labeling these Progressives "far Left fanatics". Demanding a complete stop to torture and abuse at Gitmo isn't a "Leftist" position, it is *beholden* on the USA to halt the State torture program and to initiate investigation! This is an illegal program that violates the Geneva Conventions, that violates the Constitution, that violates American decency. To demand that Obama acts now to stop isn't "fanatical"!

Spain *has* started their own process, even as Obama refuses. There is no repudiation of the powers Bush accrued for his office, no repudiation of the CIA's EIT, no appointments that signals a break from the past.

Even on the economic front, TARP and the programs that Obama intend to spend on already adds some 3 trillion to the national debt just these 5 months, which will be paid via "quantitative easing", i.e. running the printing press to churn out dollars. It is exactly the same modus operandi under Bush, leading to the staggering indebtedness of the country. There are so many other ways, so many brilliant economists to consult, Stiglitz, Simon Johnson, etc., but the *same* Bush era Goldman Sachs alumni is running the bailout which is seeing the infusion of hundreds of billions of taxpayers' money to keep the zombie assets of the Bankers alive.

In the end, it isn't just what Obama hasn't done, but what he *has* done, that raises a host of red flags all at once. The Republicans are happy, it's more of the same (remember the refrain??), it's the Dems and Progs that are shocked and divided now.

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SHOUTING doesn't make one right. Not agreeing with your position doesn't mean we aren't paying attention. That we most likely agree on many of the underlying issues is apparently immaterial if I don't agree with the speed at which these changes MUST TAKE PLACE OR HE IS BETRAYING US ALL!!!!

He is still just one man who's hands are tied by both the system and the hand he was dealt before being elected. No matter what his own priorities are, Congress still has the purse strings and apparently don't want the president to move forward with the speed you require. Congress is still the linchpin in this whole Constitutional Republic of ours, as the founders intended.

If you are suggesting that Obama should simply turn around and be the liberal equivalent of the disastrous King George years, it makes progressive seem just a buzzword for you, because sustainable changes to the fabric of this country won't be done using a dictatorial methodology.

I am not happy with everything Obama has done, but I never thought the country I would see America become would happen overnight.

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Have you ever considered your own double standards - that the CAPS used by those with whom you agree, eg. Deannie Mills in this very blog, has always been perfectly fine with you??? "SMACKDOWN" "THANK GOD" "SALIVATING"...NOT A BEEP FROM YOU, rather 2-FACED, don't you think?

It should come as no surprise, policies, when advocated by Obama are perfectly fine, unless they were advocated by Bush. No transparency, fine. Retention of Executive power NOT conferred by the Constitution, fine. The continuation of torture and abuse at Gitmo, fine. The esclation of handouts and bailouts to Bankers, fine.

I have NO respect for guys like you. It's always the person, never about the principle.

I;m done with you.

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A single all cap usage in a blog of this length is hardly the same thing as you capitalizing all throughout your rather long-winded and ideologically-motivated rant. Your comment was a perfect example of what she speaking about. There is a lot I don't agree with Mills about, one of which is that Bill Clinton was a good president. I just don't confuse my pet issues everyone's pet issues.

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And my issue with you NOT paying attention isn't that you disagreed with my views, but that you completely MISINTERPRETED and MISCONTRUED what I wrote, eg. claiming that I insisted on Obama doing "everything" when in fact, I wrote exactly the OPPOSITE. It means you either have a reading problem or a comprehension problem, and CAPS might assist in alleviating your propensity for such "blunder".

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Actually that is not what you said.

You insisted that his priorities must be your priorities. That he need not do everything, only those things that you deem most important. You the proceeded to offer a list of the specific things you have him do as well as all the other things he has to do. I didn't misinterpret anything.

Maybe if concentrated more on what you were writing to be understood rather than SHOUTING TO BE HEARD maybe your point would be more clear.

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"Actually that is not what you said.

You insisted that his priorities must be your priorities. That he need not do everything, only those things that you deem most important."

Nope, go read AGAIN. It is not *my* priorities, but LEGAL priorities. CONSTITUTIONAL priorities. I said that if a crime is committed, it is A PRIORITY to stop it. If a LAW is broken, that has to stop, IMMEDIATELY. Sorry Jason, this is a Land governed by LAW, not a land governed by Obama. Can you see it?? Seems you can't and don't think the laws are an urgent matter. Seems you think that Obama's priorities are HIS priorities. Obama gets to decide just what laws to uphold and what laws to overturn. Hail to the Decider!

In the end, I repeatedly said MANY times over, his critics on the Left are not demanding that he does EVERYTHING AT ONCE, just the most urgent, the UNDOING of crimes and violations. Yet this is the recurrent strawman you and those who call us "fanatics" wouldn't let go. I do not wish to further this futile "argument", not when all you've got are strawmen and double standards.

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SHOUTING IN MY FACE in order to MAKE A POINT doesn't MAKE YOU RIGHT. It just MAKES YOU AN ASSHOLE.

Based on PRECEDENT and LONG STANDING TRADITION this COUNTRY has paid LIP SERVICE to the CONSTITUTIONS since before the ink was DRY ON THE PREAMBLE. We RARELY follow the strict LETTER of the CONSTITUTION when a CURSORY EXAMINATION is more than enough.

It think is you who misunderstand the way this COUNTRY ACTUALLY WORKS. THE WAY it has WORKED for MORE THAN 230 YEARS. YOU THINK LAW is a simple straight line FROM A TO B, but NEVER TO C or GOD FORBID D. Except THAT isn't HOW IT WORKS. The LAW is IMPERFECT and sometimes downright UNFAIR AND IMMORAL.

SOMETHING is ONLY ILLEGAL once it is proved in a COURT OF LAW by a JURY OF YOUR PEERS after a TRIAL, which doesn't happen until an INVESTIGATION. Which is GOING ON RIGHT NOW and is the DOMAIN OF CONGRESS as well as the EXECUTIVE BRANCH. That sort of PROCESS TAKES TIME. ONE MAN, no matter how powerful or charismatic, RUNS THE GOVERNMENT.

It TAKES A VILLAGE to RUIN A NATION.

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FUCK OFF!!! ENOUGH OF YOU AND YOUR BLOODY ABUSES. I'M SAVING THESE POSTS AND WILL BE LODGING A COMPLAINT WITH THE MODERATOR. LOOK WHO"S THE REAL ASSHOLE HERE.

I MEAN IT, FUCK OFF!!!!!! FOREVER.

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Wow. Kiss your mom with that mouth? Is that your definition of "liberal" manners. Not a whole lot of empathy for alternative political views huh? Don't see how we'll fix the country if the "good guys" behave as you have behaved. Sad. Ironic and a little funny, but sad.

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In the end, you live in an alternate reality which you constructed full of strawmen and abuses that you HEAP upon those with whom you disagree with. This, and ALL of your other posts, are of an EXTREMELY PERSONAL nature. Perhaps it gives you a BIG THRILL to continuously misconstrue and misrepresent the views of others in your private mind-state in order to work yourself into a frenzied state of righteousness. You are a complete nutcase in that way, and you really should seek help. I no longer wish for you to ever reply to any of my posts or to communicate with you in ANY way. Obviously, you are a HIGHLY disturbed individual. Any further abuses from you will go straight to the moderator. This CAN be judged in an objective manner.

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You really need to go back along the thread of this conversation to find out where you went off the rails of reality.

I simply posited the idea that screaming at people isn't the best way to make your point and offered a few additional data points that you didn't seem to know. If this is your normal mode of communication, it's little wonder that some liberals have been unable to convince their fellow citizens of what should be common sense solutions for all of us, left and right alike.

Again, ironic and funny, but in a sad and self-limiting sort of way.

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PS: You might want to leave the moderators out of this because you have clearly been much more abusive in your responses to me than I have toward you.

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I had his back during the election, when it counted, when I volunteered for his campaign and donated to it three separate times. Now I'm going to advocate what I think is important for the country, and hope that he's got my back.

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KateO if you're looking for a discussion that is in lockstep with the administration, one that 'has BHO's back', perhaps the local chapter of the Democratic Party will provide what your looking for. Personally I think TPM is, or can be, better than that by providing a forum for the exchange and debate of meaningful ideas. Whatever you decide, be well. And don't stay away forever. Your voice is a valuable one.

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"KateO if you're looking for a discussion that is in lockstep with the administration, one that 'has BHO's back', perhaps the local chapter of the Democratic Party will provide what your looking for."

What the fuck are you talking about? He's receiving as much opposition from mainstream Democrats as from Republicans.

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I'm talking about the difference between a political blog and a political party.

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Hey Peegalito. Did you know that "85 - 90% of Americans probably fear that Obama is moving to "the left" too fast for their comfort?"

Brewy just told us that, upstream. Wow, right?! With facts like that, we all better watch ourselfs. Maybe cozy up a little more to that delightful Cheney feller. And them bankers. I donno, I might be able to take a liking to Larry Summers. How about you? 'Cause, ummm, 85%-90% of Americans apparently want more of that.

We better git in line. Otherwise, they might tar and feather us as.... NEOLIBS! I know, I know, the term makes absolutely no friggin' sense when used in this context, but to hell with it piggie! They're using words however they like now! Why just today I heard that we were rotten CONSERVOCOMMIES! NO NO, I MEANT NEOTARDS! Oh shit Peegy, my mind's turning to mush. They can just say whatever they like, and flip words over to make 'em mean the other thing!

Help me Peegy! 82.6%-91.3% of all DENTISTS think we're not flossing fast enough! Help meeeeeeeee!

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I don't know about y'all, but about the 85% of me around the midsection - asswise, so to speak - is gettin' pretty queasy and about all this left and right movement. Likes to stay in the middle cause otherwise sittin where I'm sittin you don't wanna move around to much risking an almighty mess on the floor. In any case with a bit of prune juice and maybe some jogging, we'll get that down to 70-75 percent. Anyhow, thought I'd add my little piece to this high-falutin discussion here.

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I'm glad you brought that up. There's a solution to finding your way through the modern day political landscape, where labels shift freely between groups, often blurring, or even reversing meanings. And doing so in style! Next week a little company I launched with all that Geithner-induced economic stimulus money, is launching a new line of full body stockings designed for the modern day American who has trouble placing him or herself in an appropriate subsection of the ever-shifting political spectrum, (35% today can morph to 85% tomorrow and there's no reason to replace your wardrobe when that happens). We call it the 'Neotard'. One size fits all. Neoconservatives, neoliberals, neophytes, neofuturists, and neorealists alike will delight in the last body stocking you will ever need to buy! $19.95 plus shipping and handling.


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Don't worry dude. I'm right there with ya. Soon, I too shall be indistinguishable from other modern American political bloggers!

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Very good points, I'm totally with you.

Of course, hopefully Obama will step up on other fronts like labor and gay marriage. Keep in mind that the bicameral legislature is set up to over-represent the red(neck) states that are virulently opposed to the Obama agenda.

The president is NOT a king, and Obama is allowing the Republicans to first shut themselves out of the debate and permanently frame themselves as irrational and shrill. Hopefully, after this framing is complete, he'll move on with more of what he promised. So far he's exhibited an incredible political strategic mind. While I'm not pleased with the pace of the agenda, I'm not ashamed to admit Obama is smarter than me and is probably playing his cards correctly.

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I thought the speech was a triumphant SMACKDOWN of Dick Cheney. I thought the timing of it--just late enough to run over into Cheney's timeslot--was brilliant, because Dick Cheney is a has-been whose time in power is over, period"

Yes, I agree 100% Deanie

And you end it so well!!!

"So for God's sake. Give the man a break."

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The ONLY way to "smack down" Cheney is to forcefully repudiate Torture. That isn't so difficult to do, is it?? Instead, we hear a lot of REASONS why things aren't moving as quickly as they should, why the Status Quo may need to be extenuated, etc. It ISN'T moving "too far" to the "Left" to demand that crimes against human rights be immediately terminated and the program of inhumane treatment, even war crimes be subject to daylight. It is NECESSARY, not "too far left".

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Does Obama have to GD meet with you personally to tell you that he has ENDED TORTURE? And he includes in that definition the "enhanced techniques". What will it take for you to acknowledge that torture has ended under this administration?

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Your ignorance and blind allegiance is EXACTLY the trouble with the Obama worshipers here - you literally took him at his word. Did it ever occur to you to CHECK the facts for yourself, to see if it's gone beyond words to become DEEDS???


Torture is STILL going on. Look for Jeremy Scahill's account of the abuse and torture "ramp up" AFTER Obama's inauguration:

www.democracynow.org

It's shocking how you would surrender your total trust and faith in a PERSON.

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Wonder if the moderators would be interested in this as well the above? Drop the stones and step away from the glass house.

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KateO, what some of the commenters may not realize is that you have a loved on in Afghanistan right now in a very deadly assignment, and I can say, having been in your shoes, that it's a crazy-making time, and sometimes you just have not got patience anymore for anything. So if you lost your temper with any commenters here, you are allowed, my dear.

They have no idea the hell where you are living at this moment.

That said, I'm so sorry you feel like you're no longer comfortable on TPM, but all of my posts are cross-posted at my own domain name, Blue Inkblots, at

http://deaniemills.com

You drop in over there any time you want to my friend. We keep the discourse civilized, and I'll have your e-mail if you want to correspond privately.

Thank you for having MY back, too, I appreciate it.

I knew this would be controversial when I put it up, and I expected pretty much what I've seen, pro and con. Didn't expect to change anyone's mind; just wanted to make people think.

You are all invited to Blue Inkblots whenever you'd like to drop in. But I expect the debate to be thoughtful. Don't like name-calling, but as I said, some people are going through pretty stressful times right now, so patience is extended.

That said, I don't buy the argument that if the Left is louder, noisier, meaner, and more persistent that they can push the president to do their bidding. I think the louder, noisier, and meaner they get, the more they divide the party, and the more they give the right-wingers exactly what they want.

Be activists, OF COURSE, and register complaints and protests, NO QUESTION. But what I'm saying is that there comes a point when, as one of you said, we need to have his back, because you can damn well be sure nobody else will.

And I'm not willing to hand over the White House in four years because our party could not unite behind its president.

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Now there's a scare tactic? Giving up the White House in four years. But I see your point. You'r enot talking WMD and much room clouds, your talking seeing Republicans at the top. Before JEM comes out to body slam me, let me say, there are several kinds of Republicans, but right now in Washington DC, there is only ONE. If the local Republicans can put a bridle on their DC Representatives and Senators, they might be worth having in the building, but right now, they are merely an unruly mob of their own, fighting everything Obama put forward.

Our mission on the Left is to get OUR Representatives and Senators to support Obama. Right now, with a slim sixty that requires we give two independents a silent "D" after their last name and a AWOL Senator from MN, we still ain't all that. Before we get to 2012, we have 2010. We have to keep the momentum we have generated and find a way to replace more Republicans with Democrats, and then have those Democrats do the work we expect of them. As we expect Obama to do what we expect of him as well. Is he disappointing? Yes, but I still think he has aplan and will roll out each change in due course. If his Administration is like his campaign, he is months ahead of everyone else and we should retain hope that we will see better things as time passes. So far, in his first few months, he has taken a horrible situation and made it better. It's not really god yet, but it is better. I'll watch his back. He's not the Messiah. He's human and needs some support. He has moved the ball forward and I believe it will continue. I want him to succeed.

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I think it is incumbent for the plebes in both parties to force change from the grassroots by voting in overwhelming numbers in every single election.

For the idiots in Congress who "represent" the republican party, their continued intransigence and obstructionism will be their undoing. I expect to see a huge number of freshmen republicans over the coming years as the party both implodes and goes through a rebirth.

I suspect the democrats will need to do the same thing if the vision Obama convinced all of us to follow is to become a reality.

See, no slamming involved. :O)

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Thanks, Deanie.

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I find myself agreeing and disagreeing. I agree this has been an incredibly full first few months for our new president. And I hope that he is delagating well but he might not have the hang of that yet being so new.

Where I disagree is that I also agree with those here who say that is my business to be an activist as I always was. Not stopping because I now have a friendlier adminstration to help get things done. That would be a mistake.

If you take my activism and energy that has always been there before as something negative now... as a statement about the president or a sign that I am too far to the left, you are going to see me as a neolib. As far as I know I care about the things I care about and I don't care what people want to call me because of that. I believe that things worth having are worth fighting and working for.

And I also know that the president several times told us when he was running that he needs 'us' and I believe him.

So, on one hand I love him and give him and his entire family a lot of credit for doing a great job in making this transition in their lives. But you know what, don't ask don't tell is an urgent matter it affects, jobs, lives, and the wars we are in. Healthcare is likely to be a long, hardfought battle because of the money and power our healthcare dollars provide to some.
There is work for us to do.

And as far as this Guantanamo thing goes... I think the reality is that we cannot understand detainees that 'cannot be tried'? What in the heck does that mean? Why? Explain that to me, why is it that any situation is so mess that a person cannot be tried? And this detaining people because we suspect that they will do us harm? That is not our way. That is a fundamental change in our society and yes I have a problem with even though I don't want to see any harm come to anyone. I don't know the answer but I feel completely uncomfortable with what is being done and I don't think it's appropriate to just shut my mouth about that. With all of the law breaking and abuse of our rights, this has gotten so out of hand that I don't feel comfortable just sitting back and 'trusting' that the government will get that sorted out just fine, we can just forget about it.

Very mixed bag, but I feel a lot of what you feel as well. And completely agree about Cheney. If the media has something more interesting to do...if there was an OJ trial or something this would die out but it seems right now Cheney is their OJ and he's enjoying it. He feels like he has power because the media gives it to him.

I hope that you understand having written all of this that I really do appreciate your post!:)

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And as far as this Guantanamo thing goes... I think the reality is that we cannot understand detainees that 'cannot be tried'? What in the heck does that mean? Why? Explain that to me, why is it that any situation is so mess that a person cannot be tried? And this detaining people because we suspect that they will do us harm? That is not our way. That is a fundamental change in our society and yes I have a problem with even though I don't want to see any harm come to anyone.
First, I have one question to direct at you personally. Anything else I write in this comment that may seem to impugn the rectitude of your intents, I ask that you not take as a personal indictment, but instead as criticism directed at almost all of the political bipolarity's left-side. My question is this: How Long Have You Been engaged In This Fight?

I started pushing back the very instant I learned that the Bush Administration had abrogated the Geneva Conventions prior to the Invasion of Afghanistan, Even though I believed then, and still believe today that Afghanistan is the right fight, against the true enemy. I've never been a Democrat in my whole adult life, but I haven't identified as a Republican for three decades now, either. Since that time, I usually believed that the greater evil within the two party system was the wielder of the majority power in our government, working to turn the pendulum back the other way. The Bush Administration helped me to perceive that presently: Democrats Are The Lamer Of Two Evils, and the lamer of two evils is clearly the lesser also.

Y'all need to ratchet down the hyperbolic rhetoric when criticising Obama. I'm not saying just lay down, and not dissent, but the charges that Obama is no different from Bush are preposterous, and has become part of a feedback loop being exploited by the right-wing noise machine. They are once again setting up the left to take the fall for their wrongs, just as they did after Vietnam; just as they did when taking down Carter after one term; just as they did to hogtie Clinton. Tell me, does the left find comfort and pleasure when the right forcibly sodomises them with blunt instruments?

Understand this clearly, America is inescapably at war. I've been to war, and contemplation of it over the last eight years has aged me greater than I care to even reflect upon. War has no redeeming qualities; it's only death in the darkness ever falling. Yet this has no bearing on the present war's necessity. Al Qaida and other organisations which desire to cause The World great harm, as they did on September 11, 2001, must be taken to ground, and put down as rabid dogs. They will not make peace, and will press the attack if allowed. It is America's responsibility to do this, because it was America who armed and trained these bastards back in the 80's and then set them loose to wreak havoc upon the Soviet in Afghanistan. This helped foment the death of over 1 million Afghans and 15,000 Soviet soldiers, most conscripted sons of poor peasants. We owe the world a blood debt, and must see to it that it now gets paid in full. This is not vengeance, it is acceptance of responsibility for the evil we have spawned.

The Iraq War was unjust, fought upon false causes. The press to turn our military might against Iraq in late 2001 was the reason that much of al Qaida's primary leadership was able to walk away from Tora Bora. For several years, anyone with a modicum of sense knew that they had holed up in the Pakistan frontier, were being allowed to lick their wounds, and to metastasise again. The cancer has spread to the horn of Africa, and maybe to other parts of the world now. A brutal side-effect not often mentioned from GW Bush's immoral War Upon Iraq, is that it tremendously increased the number of humans who will most likely need to die in order to eradicate this mess. Bush promised often to support democratic processes throughout the world, as he played pocket-pool with the dictator Musharraf, slept with Islam "Butcher of Andijon" Karimov, and let
Saudi Princes slip him the tongue at his Crawford Ranch. He served as al Qaida's poster-boy for recruitment by doing this. Now the left echos the right's farcical assertion that Afghanistan has become "Obama's War". The left-side of the bipolar polity would be god-damned dangerous, if they were ever able to walk lockstep like Republicans do. Instead they have once again lined up in their traditional formation of a circular firing squad.

You asked why some detainees cannot be tried in Federal Courts. This is a source of deep consternation for me also, but the reality is that the Bush Administration has served us up a foul medicine which we must take. From Obama's speech yesterday:

Now let me be clear: we are indeed at war with al Qaeda and its affiliates. We do need to update our institutions to deal with this threat. But we must do so with an abiding confidence in the rule of law and due process; in checks and balances and accountability. For reasons that I will explain, the decisions that were made over the last eight years established an ad hoc legal approach for fighting terrorism that was neither effective nor sustainable - a framework that failed to rely on our legal traditions and time-tested institutions; that failed to use our values as a compass. And that is why I took several steps upon taking office to better protect the American people.

First, I banned the use of so-called enhanced interrogation techniques by the United States of America.
[. . .]
The second decision that I made was to order the closing of the prison camp at Guantanamo Bay.
[. . .]
The third decision that I made was to order a review of all the pending cases at Guantanamo.

I knew when I ordered Guantanamo closed that it would be difficult and complex. There are 240 people there who have now spent years in legal limbo. In dealing with this situation, we do not have the luxury of starting from scratch. We are cleaning up something that is - quite simply - a mess; a misguided experiment that has left in its wake a flood of legal challenges that my Administration is forced to deal with on a constant basis, and that consumes the time of government officials whose time should be spent on better protecting our country.
[. . .]
I want to be honest: this is the toughest issue we will face. We are going to exhaust every avenue that we have to prosecute those at Guantanamo who pose a danger to our country. But even when this process is complete, there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States. Examples of that threat include people who have received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, commanded Taliban troops in battle, expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans. These are people who, in effect, remain at war with the United States.
As to why a small number of these detainees cannot be tried in the Federal Court system, Lawrence Wilkerson has offered compelling reasons:
Another unknown...was the sheer incompetence involved in cataloging and maintaining the pertinent factors surrounding the detainees that might be relevant in any eventual legal proceedings, whether in an established court system or even in a kangaroo court that pretended to at least a few of the essentials, such as evidence.

Simply stated, even for hose two dozen or so of the detainees who might well be hardcore terrorists, there was virtually no chain of custody, no disciplined handling of evidence, and no attention to the details that almost any court system would demand. Falling back on "sources and methods" and "intelligence secrets" became the Bush administration's modus operandi to camouflage this grievous failing.

Lawrence Wilkerson, "Some Truths About Guantanamo Bay", Washington Note, March 17 2009

Wilkerson told the AP in a telephone interview that many detainees "clearly had no connection to al-Qaida and the Taliban and were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Pakistanis turned many over for $5,000 a head."

Some 800 men have been held at Guantanamo since the prison opened in January 2002, and 240 remain. Wilkerson said two dozen are terrorists, including confessed Sept. 11 plotter Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who was transferred to Guantanamo from CIA custody in September 2006.

"We need to put those people in a high-security prison like the one in Colorado, forget them and throw away the key," Wilkerson said. "We can't try them because we tortured them and didn't keep an evidence trail."

But the rest of the detainees need to be released, he said.

Associated Press, "Ex-Bush Official: Many at Guantanamo Bay Are Innocent", FOX News, March 19, 2009
I don't not like this either. It is Un-American at its very foundations, but it is the hand we were dealt by the past President, and it must be played. What would your solution be in regards to the two dozen or so true terroists who are Guantanamo detainees be? They cannot be provided with due process of law, and it would be a crime against humanity to simply set them free.

Understand clearly, each and every American bears responsibility for this evil done in our name. Our government is of, by and for the people, so the people are in the end responsible for its actions. Even those of us who have protested the inhumane treatment since its inception are guilty, because we were not able to stem the tide. At the same time, each and every American has also been harmed by these acts. Due Process of Law, and Habeas Corpus are Natural Rights, which by definition are also universal human rights. The government has stolen these rights from us, which were to remain secure in our possession. We have a right to seek redress for these wrongs, and to expect that those who were guilty parties in these thefts, receive a proper punishment for the crimes, but only after they have been fairly convicted in a trial process that provided them with due process. This is the only path that even approaches justice.

I'm swimming in half truths,
and it makes me wanna spit.
Instructor comes to separate
the healthy from the sick.
You weigh me on a scale;
I'm smelling burnt skin.
It's dark now in Dachau,
and I'm screaming from within;
Because I'm cell-locked
in the doctrines of the right;
Enslaved by Dogma,
and you talk about my birthrights?
At every turn I'm running into hell's gates;
So I grip tha cannon like Fanon,
And pass the Shells to my classmates.
So Let The guilty Hang;
In the Year Of The Boomerang.

"Year Of The Boomerang"; Rage Against The Machine
Evil Empire; Epic; 1996
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PseudoCyAnts, I am humbled, and my knowledge is increased, by this outstanding comment. It is a post unto itself, and I for one appreciate very much the analysis as to just WHY a small handful of Guantanamo detainees cannot be tried and cannot be set free, because of the proven ineptitude of the Bush administration's handling of damn near every single thing they put their hands on.

If I could "rec'd" a comment, it would be this one. I'm sure I'll be cutting and pasting here there and everywhere!

Thank you.

And thanks to all of you for your insightful input and lively debate. It's why I come to TPM.

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Brilliant, Ant. I have seen no better explanation anywhere. There are some hard realities we need to face sometimes, and this is one of them. Consider yourself rec'd, and if you get the chance, why not put it up as it's own post?

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PCA, excellent background. I was just writing a post to flesh out Wilkerson a bit more for those who don't understand the 10% of Gitmo detainees who simply have to be held without trial, but I don't need to do that now.

If you could expand on Wilkerson's cites a bit more (maybe with some Lexis references; I can provide some if needed), this comment really needs to be its own blog post. Perhaps it will bring some much-needed layman's understanding of this horrifically complicated problem - and why the Crawford Clown is directly responsible for the complications.

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My Godness there's some smart people around here! Thanks for this, and to Deanie for getting it started.

Yet another bookmark...

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They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security

I believe that our system of justice is a bedrock of essential liberty. Period. No quantity of relativism or machinations of justification erase the source of American honor - or make the stain such a compromise represents any less. If we can't try them under our system of justice we must release them.

The argument giving these people human rights would be "crime against humanity" is as hyperbolic and specious as the "just like Bush" line of thought. (although I still assert a comparison between administrations is a completely valid metric on an individual policy basis).

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hello,

I generally have much respect for you and your contributions here.

Based on the part of my comment you posted I think what you hae said here is great but I feel as though you've attempted to attack me here but I can't find anything in your post that applies as criticm of me but I appreciate your offering of an explanation for the 'detainees' that can't be tried.

I feel no wrong in anythng I have said. It is as thought you are calling me something here that does not apply to me...or aiming some criticm that I doesn't apply. I have always been an activist.. Yes I was calling, writing senators and anyone I could think of in the lead up to the Iraq war and I had been active all my life since volunteering to work in an election in high school. I do not try to measure myself against anyone's ideal of what I 'should' be.

I let my comment stand as while more informed, I find nothing changed from reading your comment. I listened well President Obama's speech. So, once again, I think your comment is informative and insightful but I don't see how it is a criticm of me. Perhaps you'd care to explain that more clearly.

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In rereading your post and trying once again to understand what I should take as criticm that you feared I would take as a pesonal indictment I must share that it is my perception that you have made assumptions about me that go beyond anything I have said here. Assuming that I did not understand the lead up to the war or that I may not have listened to or understood President Obama's speech. So I am going to imagine based on your words that your were responding here to your perception of what 'some' people are doing and that you feel somehow 'I" am doing those things... and I do not find myself at all criticised let along indicted here. Blessings.

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I attempted to explain at the beginning of my previous comment, that it was not to be construed as a personal attack. All I wanted to know was if you had been opposing this travesty of justice for the duration, and had not simply jumped on the bandwagon in the recent past. There were times early on, that felt like I was alone staring into the the howling wind. I have argued against and opposed the Geneva Convention's abrogation since late 2001 in public and on the web. I had to teach myself effective writing skills, as I am largely just a paleogeek, without much experience in effectively waging rhetorical battles with a pen.

The reason I chose to post the comment under yours was because you wrote:

...we cannot understand detainees that 'cannot be tried'? What in the heck does that mean? Why?

My original intent was to just offer the excerpts from Obama's speech, and what LtCol Lawrence Wilkerson had recently stated, but when I began to compose it, I sensed a righteous ravening coming on about the left-side beginning to drift away from relevance. This is why I told you not to take any charges or derogations as a personal attack. If I had meant to attack you in the comment. you would no this without any doubt.

There are a few Guantanamo detainees who have openly sworn to attack America and.or the west, if they ever are given the opportunity. They are terrorists, "whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.". America has treated them inhumanely; and this treatment has squandered away any chance of giving these individual a fair trial, yet what is to be done with them? Is the proper remedy to simply let murderous fanatics walk away free? Obama has promised do what he has to, under as much transparency as can be allowed in each individual case. He stated that he wants to take as many detainees the government believes are guilty of criminal acts as possible into the Federal Court system, and barring that, a legitimate military tribunal. Obama has also stated that the detainees will be held in accordance with the Geneva Conventions Relative to POWs. A legitimate military tribunal is detailed in Chapter III of that convention.

The Obama Administration need be pressed to act according to this prescription, and we should allow it enough time to see if it will. They haven't even finished the Detention Policy Review yet, which presently is scheduled for completion by July 21, 2009.

There is also a new federal court Memorandum Opinion issued May 19, 2009, by Judge John D. Bates of the United States District Court For The District Of Columbia, that need be considered in this mix. Judge Bates has been of of the few Federal Judges with the cojones to stand up to both the Bush and Obana Administration when he believed they were overstepping lawful boundaries. This opinion rejected the Obama Administration's assertion that it has the power to detain a human indefinitely, based solely on a finding that the person "substantially supports" a terrorist organisation without actually being a member of it.

The opinion rejected the government's argument that an individual who "substantially supports" a terrorist organization such as the "Taliban, al Qaeda or an associated force" but is not a member can be detained pursuant to the AUMF. The court also found that the government's detention authority does not extend to individuals who have only "directly supported hostilities," holding that such a detention power would be inconsistent with the law of war although evidence of such support could be used to determine whether an individual had "committed a belligerent act."

Christian Ehret, "Federal judge rejects new government standard for Guantanamo reviews", The Jurist, May 20, 2009
However, Bates' memorandum opinion also detrmined:
Therefore, the Court concludes that under the AUMF the President has the authority to detain persons that the President determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, and persons who harbored those responsible for those attacks. The President also has the authority to detain persons who are or were part of Taliban or al Qaeda forces or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed (i.e., directly participated in) a belligerent act in aid of such enemy armed forces.
It also decided that the power to detain these individuals lasts for the whole duration of the conflict, which in the GWOT, could be a very, very long time.
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Thanks. I appreciate the distinction. I guess I didn't understand why I should have taken any of it personally so I thought I might have been oblivious to something

I appreciate you taking the time to expalin the detainee situation. It really is a nasty problem from every angle. For now I will try to be patient and see how things proceed.

I am very pissed off the the republicans have bee able to set off this fear mongering garbage and make the conversation 'be afraid to have these terrorists in prison in the US' when it's really a smokescreen for 'we don't want them to have rights under US law. I am very disappointed that the media keeps pretending that the 'not in my backyard' is the real issue.

Thanks again for the information on the POW's. I think we should start calling them POW's. It doesn't answer all of my questions but it helped.
I did listen to the president's speech and your info has helped.

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PCA - I'm so glad you weighed in on the 5th category detainee. I've been debating with myself whether to go with the 'too bad to let go but no evidence to convict' type of problem and solution or the 'too bad you don't have the evidence, let him go' type of solution. Your taking the first side has helped me to get there too.

One of my research jobs today was to look up the normal military commissions and how they differ from the travesties of justice that Bush ordered, but I didn't get to it. I remember reading that several military lawyers couldn't understand why they weren't used in the first place, as they offer fair trials. Would such research be helpful to you in any way?

Thank you for cutting to the core chase on this. Nobody does it better, that's fer sure!

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I do not know if they would presently be helpful or not without looking them over, but please email me copies or URLs if you can. It sounds like very good archival material.

I do not like this solution, it is foul, but I am able to believe that a few of the detainees are truly international class terrorists, and because of this cannot simply be set free to roam upon this earth.

You have surely heard some of the arguments about not automatically making criminal evidence acquired in a search that violated the 4th amendment poisoned fruit, and unable to be use at trial. There are times when this means that a criminal actor will walk away without being convicted, yet what remedy other than this is able to act as an effective bar against police/prosecutorial misconduct? It is unrealistic to expect the state to indict and try one of its own representatives for violating the 4th amendment in an improrper search. The is somewhat similar, yet I have no problem contemplating prosecuting torture enablers in a fair trial process, and as long as the number of detainees who do not receive a fair trial, yet are imprisoned si very small, and enough transparency shows the decisions were not in error, this seems to be the best remedy.

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"Understand clearly, each and every American bears responsibility for this evil done in our name. Our government is of, by and for the people, so the people are in the end responsible for its actions. Even those of us who have protested the inhumane treatment since its inception are guilty, because we were not able to stem the tide."

No Bush, Rove, Rumsfeld, Yoo, Bybee, Cheney, Bolton, Wolfowitz, Card, etc. are guilty. "We" are not guilty. "Of the people" was rigged in the Republicans favor in 2000 and 2004. That is their fault not my fault.

Good post otherwise, Pseudo, but lets put the blame where it belongs. We are not enablers if we bust our butts to stop this stuff, but the system was so rigged against us we couldn't.

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I think he means a moral guilt. I doubt he means we are legally guilty. We do bear a moral guilt, in my view, in front of the world. In front of those who have suffered at US hands. As a society that spawned these dregs of humanity.

But everyone differs on whether to accept that moral responsibility. I happen to agree with PCA on that. But I do not cast a stone at anyone who prefers to reject that moral weight.

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Nope! Bush and his creepy cronies get the moral guilt, not those of us who pleaded publicly to try to stop them, and we're ignored, disputed, and mocked.

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tlees, a long time ago I freely swore to defend The Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Upon return from my tour, I also made a personal oath: Never Again Would I Allow The Nation to Get Conned Into Waging A Major War For Dishonest Causes. When the time came to stand and fulfill these oaths, I was powerless against the deluge. For this I am blameworthy, even if the ability to successfully resist was without the reach of mere mortals. Thus speaks honour, at times with such intensity and volume, I doubt it will ever be palliated.

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Disagree. George W. Bush, who was too busy partying during the Vietnam War, to learn any lessons from it, is blameworthy - not you.

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Under 60% turnout ensured the election could be stolen. A divided electorate and an unaccountable Congress ensure this country would be ripe for the taking. Just because some heinous shit has been done without our direct approval doesn't mean we bear no responsibility for those crimes.

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Don't agree. Those of us who got outnumbered by the ignorant are not to blame. Those who didn't inform themselves about what was going on can feel guilty if they want to. But those who opposed this crapola are not responsible for it.

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In a representative democracy, the people are responsible for what happens.

There is no apportioning blame based on who participated and who didn't. We all have perpetuated an environment of unaccountable behavior at all levels of the American experience. We have ripped all notion of civic duty out of schools and our daily lives. It isn't about this or that group.

It is a cultural issue that has been our Achilles Heel from day one.

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Psy, these laws you cite are all creatures of the state. What about creating new legislation to specifically address the problems the bushies created. Something that would be perceived as fair beyond our current kangaroo military courts.

If it is outside the abilities of the American justice system why not send em to the Hauge? Or negotiate some sort of new international court for these individuals. Surely we can address these mistakes within some sort of fair system of law.

Perhaps I am being naive and the resultant damage and mistrust from our military would be too damaging and allies won't join us. Still I'd like to hear some proposals. We shouldn't settle for "yeah our bad, but we still can't give possibly innocent individuals legal rights"

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Saladin, Obama is proposing, as much as he can within this short period of time. I cut this short, but he's seems very clear that there will be new laws and oversight.

Finally, there remains the question of detainees at Guantanamo who cannot be prosecuted yet who pose a clear danger to the American people. [...] ...But I want to be very clear that our goal is to construct a legitimate legal framework for Guantanamo detainees - not to avoid one. In our constitutional system, prolonged detention should not be the decision of any one man. If and when we determine that the United States must hold individuals to keep them from carrying out an act of war, we will do so within a system that involves judicial and congressional oversight. [my emphases.]

Also, International Law could leave the detainees in limbo. There was/is? a case involving Shawqi Omar, a U.S. citizen arrested and detained in Iraq for for 2.5 years with no access to a lawyer or habeas and who had been subjected to electric shocks, was about to be turned over to Iraq for trial (and probably torture). His wife protested the government's assertion that US courts could not interfere because it was a UN case. Omar did win that round, but it's astonishing how the Bush administration hated international law until it loved it. However, reading parts of the decision, made it clear there is some limbo between the US courts and UN or international law.

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