HUMPIN' IT WITH A BULL'S-EYE ON YOUR BACK
When my son was deployed to the Anbar Province of Iraq with the U.S. Marine Corps Third Regiment, Fifth Marine in 2004-5 and again in 2006, one of the assigned missions of his unit was to go out on the kinds of patrols that were deliberately designed to draw the insurgents out.
In other words, they would "hump it" (walk), or drive in Humvees down the most dangerous roads in Iraq, in order to draw fire to themselves either through small arms, mortars, rocket-propelled grenades, or IED's--the infamous roadside bombs.
I suppose the logic behind such reasoning was that it was a more efficient way to pinpoint the enemy than kicking down doors and arresting all the males between the ages of 16 and 50.
But it was hell on the Marines. As my son put it:
"It wasn't a matter of WHETHER we would be hit or WHEN we would be hit--it was a matter of WHO would be hit."
Every single day, when they gathered up their rifles and 80-90 pound rucksacks and headed out, they knew that one or more of them would either be killed, maimed, or otherwise injured during the course of that patrol.
It takes an uncommon courage to do this every day for months on end, because as my son explained, they were scared to death. All the time. But they did it anyway.
And they are still doing it--on the streets of Mosul and the mountains of Afghanistan.
Every damn day.
I've been watching the torture debate and Cheney Magical History Tour with growing frustration, because the debate I see shaping up between those on the left and those on the right completely ignores the ones in the middle--AMERICAN TROOPS.
Cheney's claim that he and George W. Bush pretty much "kept America safe" for seven and a half years (oh how easy it is to overlook the most enormous act of terrorism on American soil in American history taking place on one's own watch)--is not only bullshit of the highest degree, but it utterly and completely IGNORES the people who really DID keep us safe--the moving targets out on patrol in Iraq and Afghanistan.
This was pointed out beautifully on the Tuesday night Rachel Maddow show by Lawrence Wilkerson, a close assistant to Colin Powell when he was Secretary of State during the second Bush years.
I'm paraphrasing, but the gist of what he said was this:
"Dick Cheney didn't keep us safe for seven and a half years. The U.S. troops, who presented themselves as MOVING TARGETS (emphasis mine; words his), in Iraq and Afghanistan did, because terrorists who might have committed acts of terrorism on American soil instead turned their hatred and rage toward the 200,000 American troops who were fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan."
Many of the insurgents who tried to kill my son and his buddies and three of his cousins and all the other American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan were haters who had poured in from Syria, Jordan, Saudi, Yemen, and other places, to join al Qaeda in Iraq--a group who, by the way, did not exist in Iraq before Dick Cheney basically made it possible for them to do so.
They would pour into Iraq, join up with local malcontents, and get immediate, on-the-job training from the U.S. Marines and army troops who drew them out and fought them. When the Marines or soldiers drove them out of an area, they would relocate to another area, and when most of the areas were taken over by American and Iraqi troops, they'd leave and go join the jihad in Afghanistan.
This is my complaint with one of many claims made by the right-wing, that somehow Bush and Co. "kept us safe."
They did not.
In fact, they made us far more at risk than ever before, first, by elevating a ragtag bunch of losers in the valleys of Afghanistan into superpower status every bit as frightening as the former Soviet Union, which empowered them not just in their own eyes, but in the eyes of other sympathizers; then, by invading Iraq, which outraged even moderates and allies among Muslim nations; then, by setting up torture policies.
The photographs of Abu Ghraib have been used repeatedly in terrorist recruitment websites, videos, pamphlets, and so on, to great effect. It was the best way in the world for us to enhance their recruitment techniques.
But what it meant for our troops who were fighting overseas was vicious, ongoing, constant attacks that never ended because the recruitment never ended, and those photographs helped even more than the war in Iraq to make that happen.
Do I think we needed to know that ugliness? Yes, of course. It put a white-hot light on the Bush administration's maggot-riddled underside and led to the reversal of those policies.
Now, there are congressional hearings on the torture memos, Dick Cheney's on his Magical History Tour that amounts to the most gigantic Cover Your Ass campaign in American history, and the 24-hour news cycle can talk of little else.
But just as those on the right can be blinded to the true reality of the uselessness, indeed, the make-worseness of torture as a security measure--blinded by their own innate fear and paranoia and vengefulness--so, too, can those on the left wear blindfolds of self-righteousness, justice, and their insistence in full transparency from this administration no matter what the consequences.
I'm talking, of course, of the decision by Obama not to release the torture photographs.
Blogs are already incensed, accusing Obama of betraying his word, of the press for rolling over, of Bush/Cheney for getting their way, and so on.
The idea that this really might have something to do with national security is roundly mocked, especially since, initially, the Obama administration planned to accept the federal appeals court ruling on the original ACLU Freedom of Information Act request.
But, as usual, the ones who will really be paying the biggest price for that photo-release--not Bush/Cheney, as so many on the left are certain of--but THE TROOPS...are overlooked.
Guys, these men and women are humpin' it over there for the seventh long year of war, counting Afghanistan. They are humpin' it with gigantic bull's-eyes on their backs. They are deliberately drawing out the terrorists in order to keep them away from our shores.
They are ALSO reaching out to local Muslim populations, building schools, restoring water, conferring with tribal leaders, and trying valiently to get them to see that we are not the enemy; we are not at war with Islam; we are not trying to destroy them.
When my nephew Troy was deployed as a company commander of a Stryker Brigade to the Diyala Province in 2007-8, this is what he did for 15 months.
UNDERSTAND: In Afghanistan, for instance, virtually two-thirds of their population is illiterate. The vast majority of Muslim extremists were "educated" in schools where the only thing they studied was the Koran, and a hostile, poorly-educated local imam's interpretation of it.
These are not people who will understand nuances of timing. They will not understand, for example, that these are OLD photographs taken YEARS ago of torture practices that have since BEEN OUTLAWED.
All they will see is their kinsmen being tortured.
And any good that has been done, any building of schools or clinics or work with agriculture or villagers or anything else--will be wiped off the cultural map.
The footage will run on Al Jazeera for MONTHS. Photos will appear in Arabic and Persian-language newspapers for MONTHS.
They will be up and running on al Qaeda websites within minutes of having been posted by the United States.
I understand completely, the argument of those on the left who feel, as Cenk Uygur says in todays Huffington Post, Obama Makes Terrible Mistake by Not Releasing Pictures that full accountability can only come with their release, that television will only be consumed by what we did, if we can SEE what we did, and how that's important for full justice to take place.
But his argument actually becomes mine:
How many Americans have heard of Bagram Air Base and how we tortured people to death there? A scant few. How many would have heard of it if there were pictures of detainees shackled from the ceiling in a Palestinian hanging or bleeding to death? Pictures are worth a billion words.
You know why? Television! If something isn't on television, it didn't happen. And television producers are obsessed with visuals (makes some sense since it's a visual medium, but their obsession winds up dumbing down the news if there aren't any pictures or video to go along with an important story).
Television has a multiplier effect. The New York Times story on how we beat a man named Dilawar to death at Bagram just sits there and whoever reads it, reads it. And then, it's done. On television stories spread and multiply and get spread to other channels and other mediums. Television doesn't just report the news; it decides what the news is.
But you see, my dear, that is the whole point.
Television does not begin and end with the borders of the United States of America.
You can bet that the televisions all over the Arab world would present these photographs as ongoing abuses taking place RIGHT NOW, and that Obama's word cannot be trusted because, CLEARLY HE IS LYING.
So when he presents his groundbreaking, landmark speech in Cairo, Egypt, next month, nothing he says about a new relationship with the Arab world would be heeded.
Not with the pictures out there.
Releasing this particular set of photographs will not get the practice outlawed. It has already been outlawed.
Releasing these photographs will not lead to congressional investigations. Investigations are already ongoing.
Releasing these photographs will not change anything about the torture debate except for one thing: IT WILL INFLAME THE MUSLIM WORLD at a time when our president is doing all he can to repair that terrible breach left behind by the Bush administration.
Let Dick Cheney crow on all he wants to. He is becoming a charicature of himself and is loathed by three-quarters of the American population. He is not helping his own cause and he is not helping his party. I wish the talking-heads and bloggers would just ignore the son of a bitch. It would give what he's saying far less credence if they did.
But the next time you get all wound up about how suppressing those pictures has absolutely nothing to do with national security, imagine this:
You are a walking bull's-eye, humpin' it down the streets of Kabul or Fallujah, the target on your back painted blood-red, and every time those photographs show up again in the Arab world, your target goes neon, and the threat on your life just increased tenfold.
Put yourself in those desert boots.
Think for a minute about the forgotten men and women in the middle.
Think for a minute past our own circular arguments.
Paint a bull's-eye on your own back, head out into a war-torn street in Iraq or Afghanistan, and see how comfortable you are with all those nice, clean, intellectual arguments then.
These things are never simple. They are always complex and confusing. Give our president credit for realizing that.
More than just food for thought here. Deanie, I still support our President. He is all we got.
Hard to get full picture. Certainly not on tv. But you have and are teaching me a lot.
Thank you for taking the time and care you do with these posts.
May 13, 2009 6:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks so much for this Deanie. Dare I say 'Bullseye!'? This really puts it in perspective in the best possible manner.
As always, appreciate. Rec'd.
May 13, 2009 7:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Guys, I appreciate your support so much.
dickday, you're the best.
"Aunt Sam." What a great moniker!
May 13, 2009 7:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
"They are deliberately drawing out the terrorists in order to keep them away from our shores."
Excuse me? The "terrorists" in Iraq are, by the military's own estimates, insignificant in number. Those who Bushit-Cheney labeled "terrorists" to which you refer are -- over 90 per cent -- IRAQIS intent on driving out an occupying force.
And, no, they are not "insurgents" either: they are people who belong where they are, intent on driving out an occupying force that DOESN'T belong there.
The POINT of releasing the photos is multifold, but one important result will be Arabs and Muslims seeing the US being H-O-N-E-S-T about its abuses. That has the same POSITIVE effect of a victim finally being acknowledged, in the particulars of her/his victimization, as a step in their healing.
How loudly must the IRAQIS, who Bushit-Cheney said WERE NOT the enemy, and were "liberating" by means of torture, SCREAM before "we" stop the name-calling and excuse-making instead of HEARING them? If the way to respect their losses, for no defensible reason under the sun, is to fully come clean about what "we" have done, THEY are sufficiently civilized to begin to FORGIVE.
As for "supporting the troops": no law REQUIRES it. And no one is obliged to "support" -- or respect -- those who believed Bushit-Cheney's TRANSPARENT LIES against Iraq in order to gung-ho "defend the country" against a people who DIDN'T attack us, WEREN'T the enemy, and WEREN'T shooting at us.
I saw through the lies. I was opposed to the illegal invasion before it occurred. I will NOT respect -- "support" -- those who supported and helped advance that illegality, and the horrors which flowed therefrom.
May 14, 2009 3:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Deanie, I still support our President. He is all we got".
Yes Dick I still support the President, but not because he's all we got. But because outside of this, I think the guy has done a good job and I like after eight years we have a President who's not a complete idiot and someone who we can like and believe in. I'm not sure if you feel the same way as me, but I do.
But make no mistake, despite my approval of the guy, he is way wrong when it comes to this decsion to not release these photos, espically when he said he was going to release them. No matter how convinceing he sound when explaining his decsion, he will take heat from his base for this, no question. I'm not saying there all going to abandon him because of it, most won't in the end. But they won't be happy with this decsion at all.
Basically to make a long story short, he should of just released the photos like he said he would. That way there wouldn't be any heartache on the left right now.
Good post Deanie, will recommend.
May 13, 2009 7:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
But also regardless of the base being angry with this move, you make a very good point about troops being in harms way if these photos getting relased. This is, what can a say a very good post. Espically from someone who has a real personal stake in this.
May 13, 2009 8:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
You accept the reality that releasing these photos would be a bonanza for our enemies, and may well put our troops in even more danger, yet you still want them released?
Bizaare.
Also, why is "because he said he would" a good reason to release them? He did say he would, but Pres. Obama has noted on more than one occasion that he can make mistakes, and that he is capable of changing his mind. IMO, we are getting exactly what we paid for with this guy, thoughtfulness, discretion, intelligence and sound reasoning.
Thanks Deanie. Highly rec'ed.
My thoughts are with you, your son, and all of our troops.
May 14, 2009 12:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know what to tell you right now Dorn, I guess I changed my mind and i'm currently torn on the issue.
May 14, 2009 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah Brad. I want the photos out there. Yes I do. But I would settle right now for release to the appropriate committees in Congress. Right now anyway.
He is running up against the Pentagon. Which is to be expected.
May 14, 2009 12:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
But what possible good would that do DD? Do we expect Congress to actually "do" anything one way or another? These are the morally impotent people who did abosoutely nothing when they knew the Bush Admin was torturing prisoners after all. How do I know they knew at the time? Well, if I knew, and it was very publicly known, I'd like to know how our members of Congress didn't know.
May 14, 2009 1:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am doing all I can to keep on the sunny side of the street I suppose Oleeb. Whitehouse is sounding pretty pissed. Leahy aint at all happy about this stuff. Whether we like or not there are political gains to be made here by shoving all this up cheney's arse.
May 14, 2009 1:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well I've no doubt that some of the former prosecutors in Congress are angry about this since they are major friggin war crimes and atrocities.
May 14, 2009 1:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's good to hear it from someone who has a personal stake. Too many people who seem intent on seeing these photos released have never known the fear for the safety their loved ones in a war zone.
That neon target you mentioned is the only real issue here. I'm a full-fledged fan of what the ACLU tries to stand for, and if they kept these pics tucked away from prying eyes to use in the courtroom, they would get my unqualified support to have those photos.
But if it is just a big media dump, it makes that evidence so much less potent. And if the release accompanies an investigation, it will surely mollify our middle-eastern adversaries and gives them much less reason to aim at those neon bullseyes.
May 13, 2009 7:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jep07, you hit the nail on the head and actually said something I wish I'd added.
I'm not opposed to the photos being seen by judge and/or jury in a court of law, in order to prove a point or provide evidence or whatever legal purpose.
But as you say, a "media dump" would be disastrous not just for our troops--which is bad enough--but also our emissaries such as Richard Holdbrook and Hillary Clinton who, along with Obama, are trying to open long-closed diplomatic channels with friend and foe alike.
The "Arab street" runs rampant with conspiracy theories anyway, and a media flood of more torture photos would sabotage any effort our peacemakers and warriors alike are making to end the Middle Eastern conflicts.
And wwstaebler, I'm with you in that I think that, until they prove otherwise, we should trust that the current WH occupants are going to make these decisions as mindfully as they possibly can.
May 13, 2009 8:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
"The "Arab street" runs rampant with conspiracy theories anyway,"
The Cheney/Bush junta era created this pile of tinder, and now they want Obama to get blamed for putting a torch to it.
What I don't like more than anything else is that Obama's troops are going to bear the brunt of the mistakes made by the likes of Rumsfeld and Blackwater.
Those Arabs running rampant aren't about to differentiate.
May 14, 2009 10:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
JEP- Let's get the contractors out of the field altogether. They have no place on the ground. The military should be an organization that can do things for themelves and those that are doing should be military. Many a good cook or mechanic came out of the military. We should bring that back.
May 14, 2009 12:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Back when they first started passing those duties along to contractors, I was camping in the Florida Keys between semesters, and I got a part time job cleaning on the Air Base on Boca Chica Key. For all I know, I may have been working for Halliburton.
I was a young hippy back then, (an old one now) and no one seemed disturbed in the least I was cleaning their sinks and toilets.
But I do remember thinking at the time it was simply ludicrous to be doing the work some military person could be doing.
I didn't stay long, got a job on a shrimp boat and sailed away, but the memory always sticks with me whenever I hear the word "contractors."
What a monster that term has morphed into.
Think "Blackwater."
Are in the new age of mercenary military?
May 14, 2009 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
We have privitized war. It's no longer a shadow business. It is right out front! The most frightening thing I can imagine today is that someone with millions of dollars will get their hands on drones because of their second amendment rights. Then they simply hire people to direct them wherever suits their fancy, unbridled.
Be afraid, be very, very afraid. That's the battle we need to have now, more then this sensational torture, in some ways.
May 14, 2009 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
[[I'm a full-fledged fan of what the ACLU tries to stand for, and if they kept these pics tucked away from prying eyes to use in the courtroom, they would get my unqualified support to have those photos.]]
That's just what the head of the ACLU said last night on "Hardball" that he'd be willing to do. He wants a special prosecutor, and he said that as long as those pictures got to the special prosecutor as evidence, he'd be OK if they weren't made public.
But the fact is, this is in the hands of the courts. And while I would not ever bet anything significant on the group that gave us Bush v. Gore doing the right thing, I think the facts and the law are on the ACLU's side on this one.
May 14, 2009 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
"That's just what the head of the ACLU said last night on "Hardball" that he'd be willing to do. He wants a special prosecutor, and he said that as long as those pictures got to the special prosecutor as evidence, he'd be OK if they weren't made public."
My sentiments exactly. Obama needs to appoint a special, INDEPENDENT prosecutor who will simply go where the trail of breadcrumbs and bodies leads him or her.
Then they should let THAT person release any information to the public.
May 14, 2009 12:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Deanie: so often when we read the news (from our side) we think: "Oh, that's so true." And then we hear an opposing view (from our side) and we think: "Oh, well, that is true; I should have considered that."
And then someone like you moves us beyond the academic analysis, into a realm in which people you know, and I know, or might know, are at risk. And then the academic questions, though valid on an intellectual level, become mute when it is our boys and girls with targets on their backs -- a status that may depend entirely on what our president and officials decide.
I deplore the isolated bubble of the White House. But I am more confident than I have been in my adult lifetime that the persons making the decisions of foreclosure or discretion are making those decisions mindfully.
I may be wrong. But until I am offered proof of same, I will trust (what a novel word) that the current powers that be are thoughtful in their choices to disclose, or not. Not for political gain (although of course that is an issue) but rather, because this is an administration that values the preservation of human life, not as a question of conception, but rather, as a question of living, breathing human beings, extant, who matter.
Thank you, Deanie, for another thought-provoking post.
May 13, 2009 8:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hoorah, to your son, Deanie. And thanks...
May 13, 2009 9:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
The issue isn't about the effects of these particular photographs.
The issue is whether the government of the United States can deny its citizens knowledge of what it has done -- and is doing and will do -- basing its refusal to disclose on the claim that to do so would damage United States' interest in -- something, anything.
Agree with that claim and you can say goodbye to the FOIA together with the idea that citizens can exercise oversight of their elected officials.
O.T. Well known experts in the fields of psychology, sociology and anthropology such as Ray Odierno, David McKiernan, and Deanie Mills are going to tell us what the effects of releasing the photographs will be on the recruitment and fighting practices of some unknown Afghans and Iraqis. Right.
May 13, 2009 9:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well what can you say, Deanie made a good point. Plus regardless of the photo's we know of the carnage that has been done in what we call torture.We know of the sleep depervation, waterboarding etc. We know this. Exposing the photo's would just be stating the obvious. Plus I don't want to put the troops in anymore danger than they already are.
Like I said before, good thoughtful post Deanie.
May 13, 2009 9:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
How long did the Nuremburg trials take, and how long before all the photos of the concentration camps were released?
I agree Ellen, but I think that Obama has a point, if the release would result in further harm, or prejudice the population, that is something to consider. I think that there should be Congressional and DoJ proceedings announced and they should be guaranteed all access. They need to start. Now.
That Obama hasn't announced any is a source of great concern to me, and I think we should all be writing weekly at this point to force the issue.
May 13, 2009 10:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
And what if (as is most likely) the President is simply putting this excuse about the troops out there to cover for the military and to hide what we have done?
What if he is abusing the trust so many millions have put in him? It wouldn't be the first time or last that a politician pulled this sort of trick. The quick flip flop of less than a month on this specific issue indicates that the President's decision is yet another political decision, poorly considered, in which he has rolled over for the military and "national security" establishment.
If that is the case as it appears to be, then it is almost certain that he offers the "safety of the troops" argument in no less a cynical manner than Bush did. But everyone recognized that Bush was not telling the truth. Many simply refuse to believe that President Obama would do such a thing. To them I can only say, open your eyes despite the pain it will cause you.
May 14, 2009 1:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
I hope you're wrong Oleeb, but every day that goes by without an announcement that the issue is being addressed as a matter of Law makes me worry that you are right.
May 14, 2009 7:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bush never had to reverse his decision, he always used protecting the troops as a fig leaf.
The fact Obama is willing to suffer the slings and arrows and accusations of flip-flopping to make this 180 seems like pretty good evidence he learned something new between his campaign promise to release "everything" and his decision to resist the release of these photos.
Obama isn't using it as a fig leaf, he really means it. Or he wouldn't be so willing to give up so much of his political capital, at least temporarily, until everyone finally figures out he is sincere about protecting the troops, and this is not a political stunt.
May 14, 2009 11:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ellen of the one eye;
Your last paragraph was terminally condescending.
Isn't it really something of a no-brainer, it doesn't take a psych degree or reading Lifton's entire body of work, to come up with the conclusion that seeing photos of your contrymen and fellow faithful being tortured could lead to violence towards the people you perceive are doing the torture.
I imagine more than a few professionals know how likely that scenario is, and it didn't take their degree to figure it out.
May 14, 2009 10:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
As you say, anything "could lead" to anything.
And as long as you permit (welcome?) your government justifying secrecy on such speculative grounds, you're inviting it to hide its defalcations and accepting its claim that it has the right to prevent you from fulfilling your role as citizen.
May 14, 2009 11:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
I will be content if Obama states that the photos will be available to the law enforcement professionals engaged in investigating this.
He needs to say so, though.
Big time.
May 13, 2009 9:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. That would have been wise of him. He can still do it.
May 14, 2009 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am sorry, but I disagree with this post. I mean it with the utmost respect. Truly.
Speaking as an OIF vet, I want to stress a few points. Our danger is guaranteed. We are in a hostile fire zone. We wouldn't be in danger if Bush hadn't sent us there. That act, the invasion and occupation of two sovereign nations, is the original sin. The rsst is gravy.
I understand that you care for your son. Lord knows my wife cares for me and resented every convoy and patrol I endured. But I will not abide my brothers and sisters in arms to be used as a fig leaf from which to both break a promise and evade a court order.
Here's some insight into Arab culture (I can't speak for Aghans having not deployed there): they are a sophisticated and rational culture. What fuels the insurgency is American occupation and the desperate economic climate. I don't entirely like your use of literacy and education as a measure of their gullibility. If anything, the Iraqis are more discerning than Americans.
You have every right to your opinion, and you make valid points. But the troops were sent on a mission of occupation, and we the people did not stop it. All of that blood is on everyone's hands. It would be better to handle our human rights abuses with transparency and humility while pushing for a speedy exit from tue region so that these sovereign nations can handle their own affairs.
Fear is not the answer. Fear of terrorism led us into this mess. Fear of more violence shouldn't deter us from justice. And I can say that having bore a combat load in the Anbar province. We can't let fear own our lives.
May 13, 2009 10:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
And although I disagree with your post, but make some very valid points that were thoughtful and well put. I have to agree with Deanie on this one. But everyone is entitled to their own opinions and although I disagree with it, I still respect your views and commend you for presenting your side of the story. Plus this is more specific then the post you made in TPM Cafe.
This is what I like, an open debate regarding this move without hate words being put out or people getting into shouting matches. We got people from both sides presenting their thoughts in a well thought and cohesive way. This is how a debate should be.
May 13, 2009 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
You can say that, Zipp, because you were there. Your opinion counts a lot with me, and I mean to see that these photos are released, but I want to get you all home first. I'm probably a fool, but I feel deep down that is probably the least harmful course.
The urge to 'do no further harm' is one that I feel keenly. I think, that as long as I knew that the laws were being enforced and that the photos would be released at some future date after the investigations were complete, that I would be OK with it. As long as the investigators had access to them, and the courts. I think the ACLU also takes this position.
Obama needs to clarify. Flat out refusing to release the photos is a mistake. I agree with you to that point for sure.
May 13, 2009 10:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well i'll tell you this if it means anything. Obama did a good job clarifying why he's doing what he's doing. Better than Gibbs who when explain why Obama wasn't releasing the photo's came off as a cocky tool and looked like a total fool when he took the reporters cell phone. Yeah the guy should of put it to vibrate, but as a Press Secretary, all your are is the President's spokesperson and you brief the media on the Presiden't agenda, your not the cell phone police.
But pretty much I totally agree with what your saying, I just thought I add that for the heck of it.
May 13, 2009 10:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
It means something Bradley.
I'm not sure what, but then, I'm reeling.
Obama took me for a loop today, for sure.
I'm not sure I'm sorted out yet.
May 13, 2009 11:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh same he here, i'm sure sure if he took me for a loop because I have no idea what that means, but he did a good job clearifying his decsion on the matter, better than the guy who supposed to do that.
I'm still reeling on the matter as well. Not to mention i'm torn when he comes to the matter. But like you i'm still supporting the President (not on this, but him in general) and I believe he'll announce his plans for what he's going to do about the torture because believe me, this is far from over. I believe there will be some type of investigation on this.
Like Obama, I want to move forward but I feel you can't go forward until he really handle the torture. Because if you won't, it will always be the 300 pound gorilla in the room that will haunt him until the day he leaves office and after.. When Ford pardoned Nixon he did to move the country forward and that didn't happen. People were disgusted with his decsion and was voted out office. Up until his death the question of whatever he should of pardoned Nixon remained in debate. I'm not saying Obama will get voted out of office because of it, but if he wants to move forward he needs to take care of the situtation in some way. If not, he'll never escape the issue of torture.
Not to mention eventually I believe the photos in some way will be relased.
Got to be optimistic, in times like this that's all you can do. I can tell by the tone of your posts you feel the same way as well.
Well all I can say that i've seen a good healthy debate on the issue of the photos. In the various posts published at TPM Cafe today, i've seen points raised from both sides of the debate and with the exception of Oleeb, everyone presented themselves in a rational and well mannered way. Not mention everyone was respectful to the people that they didn't even agree with like how I was with Zip. This is how a good healthy debate should be. For this I thank all of you.
Everyone take care and Good speed. Not to mention have a great summer, hope everyone is enjoying it.
May 14, 2009 12:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
The photos are a distraction from the real issue, though. The Law was broken, and people need to be held accountable for it. Their powerful status shouldn't shield them from the Law.
May 14, 2009 7:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that we need to lay the responsibility where it belongs. I believe the photos will ultimately come out. But whatever appears in them should not be laid to the "bad apples" excuse. Better, as you say, to step up to the plate of humility.
Deanie, as you know, I have infinite respect for you. This is a court case. And will be decided as such.
May 13, 2009 10:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Zipperupus, God bless you and thank you for your service, as well as your insight.
However, one paragraph of yours might need some clarification from me:
"Here's some insight into Arab culture (I can't speak for Aghans having not deployed there): they are a sophisticated and rational culture. What fuels the insurgency is American occupation and the desperate economic climate. I don't entirely like your use of literacy and education as a measure of their gullibility. If anything, the Iraqis are more discerning than Americans."
When I was referring to widespread illiteracy, I was referencing Afghanistan at the time, although it is also a big problem in Iraq. However, you are right in that Iraq is a far more sophisticated culture--or was, before the war--than is Afghanistan, which is primarily a tribal culture in which government ceases to exist outside of the capitol.
My brother-in-law recently retired as a U.S. army special forces brigadier general, and one of the things he did when he was active-duty was negotiate with tribal warlords in Afghanistan, which is something he'd also done in the Balkans. One of his sons is also SF and did a deployment to Afghanistan as well.
It's not my intention to "use the troops as some sort of fig leaf" to avoid justice, by any means. As I should have mentioned in the post, and did later in a comment, I have no problem with the photos being released to a court of law to be examined by attorneys, judge, and/or jury as evidence.
I do think, however, that a media dump of hundreds more photographs would be detrimental to our efforts in both Iraq and Afghanistan as well as our peace initiatives throughout the Muslim world.
Again, I appreciate your interest and comments, and if you are currently deployed, Godspeed until you return safely to your family.
May 13, 2009 10:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for your reply. I am not currently deployed, but I appreciate the blessings nonetheless.
I did not intend to impugn your motives. You are coming from a place of love. I am more concerned with Obama using the troops as a fig leaf. I do believe he cares about us; vastly moreso than Bush ever did. But this decision upsets me. Obama has no problem backing airstrikes that kill dozens of civilians. The risk of backlash doesn't seem to phase him. Obama has no problem with drone strikes across the Pakistani border. That risk doesn't bother him either. But this does? I am sorry, but color me skeptical.
And I don't think releasing the photos to a special prosecutor will deliver the proper Solomonic solution. The reason is because these acts of censorship reveal a fear of the common man as somehow unable to handle the truth. I don't care for that sentiment.
May 13, 2009 11:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Point taken, Zipp, on the Predator strikes.
However, per your comment about "fear of the common man"--I'm not comfortable with that, either, but keep in mind that a simple political cartoon published in a Danish newspaper resulted in riots worldwide, and the murder of at least one newspaper editor.
This is a time of great international political sensitivity as Obama, Clinton, Biden and others on his team reach out to the Muslim community and try to forge a new foreign policy based on collaberation rather than mutual suspicion.
A media dump of hundreds of horror-photographs of torture that was supposed to have taken place within the auspices of the U.S. military (even though I suspect private contractors did most of the actual dirty work), would do nothing but force Obama to slog through the Bush/Cheney swamp he's tried so hard to get out of.
Right now, too, the unsteady violence-reduction in Iraq is very, very precarious and volitile. We just don't need to go back to the days of 20004-2007 when the whole country was drenched in blood.
From what I understand, it was doubts about that very thing that were expressed to him in passionate terms by Gens. Petraeus, McKiernan, and Odierno that changed his mind.
I'm so glad you are back Stateside, and I know what you mean about appreciating every little thing. My son says no matter how bad things might get at work in his civilian job, he can look at the photograph of his unit taken at Blackwater Bridge after they took it back from insurgents and think, "Well, at least they're not shooting at me."
Puts life in perspective, eh?
May 14, 2009 9:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Indeed, perspective is key.
As far as the Danish cartoon goes, it was handled exceptionally poorly. The cartoon was purposely inflammatory... first by showing the image of Mohammed, and then using that image to portray Mohammed as a terrorist. The anger began with demands to remove the cartoon and apologize... the paper did neither and the riots occurred. The lack of remorse led to the inflammation. Even if you don't understand why you are hurting someone, if they say you are hurting them by your actions, you stop the action... and then you have dialogue.
I also find it ironic that General Petraeus would council Obama to delay the release while stating before Congress that he supported the release not too long ago.
But, once again, I understand your trepdiation... I just happen to disagree with the notion that we should let that trepidation stand in the way of this vital issue.
May 14, 2009 11:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
But I will not abide my brothers and sisters in arms to be used as a fig leaf from which to both break a promise and evade a court order.
I respect both points of view, but it seems like releasing the photos and at the same time holding the commanders accountable, would go a long way toward erasing the "a few bad apples" excuse used by the former administration.
Truth is truth in any culture. And what we got from the Bush administration was anything but and was recognized as such. Do we know for sure that the Abu Ghraib photos actually caused any more violence than what would have happened anyway?
May 14, 2009 1:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
How many pictures do we need to see? We know what happened, we know it was awful...do we really need to see hundreds if not thousands of pictures of it?
I've seen enough to know what I need to know, so not releasing any more isn't going to give me any stomach acid.
May 13, 2009 10:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
But that is you... You were not convinced by the falsehood that Abu Ghraib abuse was nothing more than fraternity pranks.
There are many out there that need convincing... Those all too eager to grasp the comforting mythos of American exceptionalsm and believe that we do no wrong. This is a myth that must be shattered.
Lindsey Graham stated today that enhanced interrogation (torture) has existed for 500 years because it works. And this kind of attitude is not dismissed but applauded by the MSM.
Well, Jesus, Lindsey genocide has been practiced throughout history too because it works. If working is the sole criterion in justice and war, then where is the moral line?
We have to wake up and perceive the deatils that in our dreamstate we have otherwise ignored. So I advocate release of any and all documents pertinent to human rights abuses here and elsewhere. To do otherwise is to slumber, perchance to dream.
May 13, 2009 10:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
God, I hate to think you are right, Zip...
May 13, 2009 11:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can't say he's right on everything, but he makes some valid points on Obama caring more for us then Bush did (thanks for saying that about Lindsay Graham and the MSM. I don't necessarily agree with him but he makes some good points and I will say i'm glad he's here talking to here and presenting his side of the issue. For that i'll say thank you and God bless.
May 13, 2009 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Shit, me too. And I've spent the morning commenting against the idea of releasing these photos.
May 14, 2009 12:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
You make a good point again but I have to agree with stillidealistic on the matter. The fact is that we've seen the torture photos of the carnage of Abu Ghraib. We know about the interrgation methods those bastards used, do we really need to see them again. I mean I saw those photos not to mention the video of terrorists beheading Nick Berg, I don't think I can take seeing anymore of this. I think if I do i'll throw up heavily.
I get where your going with this, you believe they should be released because of history and for more people to see the torture that is going on. But I believe we don't need to see anymore photos because we've seen photos of torture before and we know their methods. Plus add in the MSM and Lindsey Graham are a bunch of fools that have no idea what their talking about. Literally, if everyone listened to them the Republican would still control Congress and we would be seeing President McCain instead of President Obama. But I do believe in some way or fashion, those photos will eventually be released.
But I do respect your opinion and I appreciate you bringing your views to the table, I really. Like that when you present yourself, you do in in a reasonable way and not a man full of hate and anger and that's what I hate when people bring that to a debate.
Guess well have to agree to disagree.
May 13, 2009 11:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yup. It has been a pleasure disagreeing with you.
May 13, 2009 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Same goes with me. Before you sign off I will say this. You are a bright intellgent person who presents itself in a well manned and thoughtful way and not in a hateful and spiteful. Thank you for your comments and I look forward to seeing your posting here on TPM.
Take care and God speed.
May 13, 2009 11:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Before I sign off, I just want to give Deanie huge kudos for her insight about safety. George Bush did not keep us safe. Thousands have died in uniform and tens of thousands have been maimed in a conflict that simple moved the target away from our shores and squarely on the backs of the armed forces. If that is safety, then I would hate to live in their definition of danger.
May 13, 2009 11:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Deanie. I've got family in Afghanistan, so this isn't just an "intellectual" position for me - but I think this line of argument merely continues the sorts of mistakes that has led us this far. The vast majority of killings & abuse which have and are taking place in the region are not shown, not photographed. For weeks, months at a time, the war is actually rather "invisible" to us. And I find it hard to believe that that invisibility has produced good results.
- For example, we have special teams that run assassinations/executions. No one will ever know the "rightness" of their decisions, and whether/what kinds of "interrogations" took place along the way. They themselves have refused to put that information and evidence forward even to their own democratically-elected leaders.
- The officer who stood atop this activity has just been put in charge of expanding a war - not pulling out. Afghanistan is taking more troops, not headed for the exits.
- As another example, we're killing what, 10 people for every high profile individual our drones attack? And we appear now to be expanding that effort deeper into Pakistan.
Personally, I regard these deaths from assassination and drones as negatively as I regard torture - in fact, moreso. But they are invisible, to us, and to most of the world. I very much suspect that people both in the US/NATO nations, as well as Iraq/Afghanistan and the region would be outraged at what the pictures showed.
And here's our big question - Overall, is this a bad thing? For our troops in the short-term, I would say... likely yes. But for our troops who might be pulled into a deeper quagmire, and be there in 2 or 3 years? I'm not sure.
Perhaps stiffened domestic, global and regional opposition to these sorts of activities might lead to a greater focus on ending our participation. I hate military math, but what if we lost 40 more troops now, and saved 4,000 later? I don't want my family to be amongst either group, but the fact that the troops are at risk now is not a clinching argument - because they are entirely likely to be at risk later, if we continue to make poor decisions.
Just to pull ourselves out of the immediacy of today, would we argue that atrocities from previous wars such as Vietnam - e.g. My Lai - should have been censored?
I find we are now taking an enormous amount on faith - faith in Obama. And I'm not sure we shouldn't be placing less faith in individual men/women and even parties... and more faith in the truth. Or in our own principles - you know, all that "they hate us for our freedom" business. And maybe even more faith in these people in other parts of the world.
At this point, I think we really do have to ask ourselves some tough questions: What reason have we given anyone to have faith in our words, and our actions, in relation to these wars? Forget that we're backers of Obama and the Dems. But to the people in these nations - what do they see?
- Wars based on lies, but continued anyway.
- Wars fought using torture, with no one held accountable.
- Wars led, today, by the military leaders who supported or accepted or covered up torture, assassination & large-scale civilian deaths.
- Wars presently being expanded in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
We talk a great line. But we have shown no ability to take responsibility for our actions - not in finance, not on the environment, not for torture, not for illegal wars.
May 14, 2009 1:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
I completely understand your point but cannot say I agree that release of the photos would have any real impact on the safety of our troops. They are already in danger. The danger they face is no more or less if the photos are released.
The biggest threat to the safety of our troops is our presence in the middle east and Asia where they and we don't belong. The sooner the two pointless wars are concluded and our troops brought home the better for all involved, but especially our soldiers.
May 14, 2009 1:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Deanie,
No one wants our troops to be in any more danger. There is no doubt that some will use these photos for propaganda, but that doesn’t mean that all of the news in the ME is propaganda. I think the pictures of the 120 women, kids and old men that were recently bombed, the kind of stuff that has been running regularly since we invaded Iraq is inflammatory enough. What if the photos were released but as part of an actual investigation into our abuses in order to hold those responsible to account. It would be difficult for terror groups to spin that in their favor.
I really think the only way we’re going to win hearts and minds in the ME is to show that we are the America that stands for the principles we purport to uphold. If the photos are not released, I think that will seal the cover-up, which is almost a done deal now. And our enemy will have a recruitment tool that will last forever. I just posted this below in another thread. Forgive me if it sounds harsh in this thread:
Does anyone think Muslims reading their local news or Al Jazeera viewers have been, until now, uninformed about US abuses? Nevermind that everyone in the world knows what we have done. Nevermind that everyone has seen the Abu Ghraib photos. Nevermind that invading Iraq and raining destruction on an innocent Muslim population was as big a boon to Al Qaeda recruitment as possible. But the administration still argues that more pictures of the same are going to endanger the troops and safety of Americans at home.
Perhaps they shouldn't be trying that soldier who, with his buddies looking out, raped the 14 y.o. Muslim girl and then killed her and her family. Might piss off some people if it gets out in the press. Endanger the troops. Make America less safe. What d'ya think? Let him go? Put the past behind us? Move forward?
May 14, 2009 1:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Don Key, are you not aware that the soldier accused of raping that girl and burning down her house and killing her family HAS been prosecuted, HAS been convicted, and is in prison as we speak?
May 14, 2009 9:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, he was convicted last week I think. He has yet to be sentenced unless I missed the news. I'm not sure of the disposition of his compatriots, but he was discharged first, then charged as a civilian. It was just an example that came to mind.
One could argue the same thing about any act committed by Americans that reflects badly on us, and there is little question that many atrocious actions (Haditha, for example) have been papered over but more for the America audience than the Arab or Muslim world. No one can deny that these incidences are a "PR" disaster for America in the region.
Pfc. Green's case is about an individual (or small group) committing an atrocity, not a pervasive policy of criminal actions (that are "not illegal if the president orders it"). Why is it okay to cover-up one and not the other? Green and his compatriots are not representative of our soldiers in any way or form, but we're talking about covering up crimes that would inflame hatred of American forces occupying Muslim countries (which is where this all started with the first Gulf War).
What many in America don't realize is that pictures and reports of incidents like the recent bombing of the small village in Afghanistan (whether it killed 60, 80, or 120) are seen throughout the region and often in most of the world, just not here in America, land of the free press. Of course, this was an accident, but by covering it up (denying it, then blaming the Taliban, then saying it happened but was much smaller, etc.) and blacking this out to the American people only perpetuates the stereotype that we are a big self-centered clumsy imperial monster that will trample defenseless people to get what we want.
Muslims in the ME are much more aware and informed. Even though much of it is propaganda, the pictures of dead innocents are powerful and many are too ready to believe the worst about us because we try to cover this stuff up. The best way to diminish the hatred for America there would be to do what Obama had been preaching: coming clean about our actions; showing respect for the people we claim to be liberating; and holding ourselves to higher standards of behavior.
Our closest allies in the region are governments that oppress their people. Our actions, whether intentional abuses like this torture or incidental collateral damage, is denied even though damning evidence circulates the Arab Street. Our highest officials are seen as corrupt and "protected" because they are. How on earth could the Arab Street see us as liberators spreading democracy?
The importance of these photos was in their evidence that torture was a policy being used everywhere we held detainees. They are not withholding them from the view of Muslims but from Americans. If there was even a chance that they would be used in a court, in camera, to prosecute crimes and lead to investigating and rolling back the executive abuses, no one but the press would still be demanding them. But they are just part of a massive cover-up. How can we see ourselves as upholding the values we claim separate us from the terrorists? And, even if we could cover up our crimes, would it be right?
I'm worried about the escalation in Afghanistan and the expansion of the war into Pakistan (and without clear cut goals). I think it's just as dangerous to the troops to give ammo to the enemy by appearing to be what they claim- imperial invaders who only apply our vaunted ideals to everyone else, not ourselves. I hope your loved ones and all of our soldiers can come home sooner rather than later. But we can't compromise with the law and with our principles if we want to stand for something in the world.
May 14, 2009 10:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Releasing these photographs will not change anything about the torture debate except for one thing: IT WILL INFLAME THE MUSLIM WORLD"
It will inflame some radicals in the USA too. These radicals love dirty laundry, to put it a bit crudely. They are without common sense in their zealous devotion to their infinitely small speck of truth.
And the discussions I heard in MSM today assume that these pics represent some kind of order of magnitude larger issue, but the pundits never justify that.
May 14, 2009 1:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm late to this post, Deanie.
I do have one thing to commend you for, though. You took the issue out of the realm of abstraction and put human faces on it. We are so often willing to sacrifice people for "principles" that we forget that principles are for people, not the other way around.
I do think the pictures are evidence, and ought to be treated as such. If it means keeping them away from the eyes of those who look only for sensationalism, for the time being, so be it.
And may all the kids (and grownups) over there come home safe and sound.
May 14, 2009 2:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Good post. However, I disagree.
It is true that a release of the photographs MIGHT "run on Al Jazeera for MONTHS" and that "photos will appear in Arabic and Persian-language newspapers for MONTHS." It is also true that a release of the photographs MIGHT "be detrimental to our efforts in both Iraq and Afghanistan as well as our peace initiatives throughout the Muslim world."
But it is most certainly true that our focus must be on years, not months. Our focus must be on holding those responsible to be accountable, and on making sure that no benighted future administration dares follwo the same path as our last one. Our focus must also be to convince the world that we will absolutely and permamently cease to be the monsters into which the last administration made us.
This may indeed have some adverse consequences in the short term, although I prefer to give people more credit for intelligence regardless of education. It is also true that in the short term most of the world WILL see and understand that we are exposing the cancer of the last few years and will appreciate that we are turning our backs on these practices.
We cannot sell out the long term for he short term here. The stakes are too high. The pictures must come out, and part of taking responsibility for this is that we will endure the consequences.
May 14, 2009 9:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
One point everyone seems to be overlooking is that the photographs MAY YET be released. Obama did not pull some kind of Bushian back-door deal where he stuck the "national security" label on the photos and buried them in Cheney's man-sized vault.
His lawyers OBJECTED, formally, and sent the issue back to the courts for more consideration. The courts may yet overturn that objection and the photos may yet be released.
But if that happens, the important thing, from a military family standpoint, is that Obama heeded the entreaties of his "generals on the ground," (vehement objections were stated by Gens. Petraeus, McKiernan, and Odierno), and changed his mind, which he knew would bring a firestorm of criticism from left AND right--but what that says to those in uniform is, "The man's got my back."
That doesn't mean that they all agree with his decision, as has been so eloquently pointed out by Zipperupus, nor, as Zipp mentioned, does it mean that they are not in danger every day of their lives ANYWAY.
It just tells them that, when matters of their safety were put to their commander in chief, he listened.
And to me, that is a very big deal, and means more than any talking-head or political argument made from a safe, air-conditioned, peaceful place where no one is being shot at or blown up.
Before I sign off, though, I would like to give a big ditto to what Bradley Hussein Minoski has said, that I, for one, appreciate the smart, thoughtful, give and take of views we've seen on this comment section. It is possible for each of us to disagree with one another without personal attacks, and I'm so proud that this is one place where that is happening. Thanks, guys!
May 14, 2009 9:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have debated weighing in here, as it is an emotional gamble for me. We have a son in Kabul right now. His buddy was just sent home- he left his left hand in Kabul, an IED was attached to a cable box the engineers were trying to restore. The prospect of the photos being spattered across the airwaves scares the hell out of me. I have no doubt the violence will escalate. I would hope the photos will be turned over immediately to those who NEED to see them right now, and withheld from the public until we NEED to see them. I don't think that moment is now.
May 14, 2009 9:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
This entire, murderous, criminal enterprise was undertaken solely BECAUSE what the public neded to know- that Iraq wasn't involved with 9/11, that Hussien was our long & loyal arms client, that the Taliban was a joint US/Pakistan creature, and that key "evidence" of a Iraq/9/11 link was the product of torture .......none of this the profiteers of these wars thought we NEEDED to know.
The ONLY thing that will remove the number one Jihadist recruiting tool from the equation is the US coming clean- absolutely clean- and that can ONLY happen if the people responsible- not the low level rankers who have been framed for this so far- are bought to open trial.
thats Cheney, Rummy, Bush, Wolfie, Feith......you know the roster.
Our troops are in danger because they are occupying unwilling lands, and we rack up astounding numbers of dead bystanders in the course of that occupation.
Thats whats hanging a bullseye on our troops. And the Dems seem intent on keeping it there.....
May 14, 2009 11:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
KateO, God bless you dear, you know you and yours are in my prayers daily. I remember so vividly how it felt having a loved one in such a terrifying place. My son, too, saw buddies shipped out not just in body bags but in pieces--missing a hand or a leg or a MIND.
I do wish I'd had the foresight to clarify in the post my belief that the suppression of the photographs should not be regarded as a "coverup" as long as they remain available to those in the courts who are handling the case. But like you said, they don't need to be out there in the worldwide media provoking more outrage than already exists toward American troops.
You know you can e-mail me, dear, at deaniemills@yahoo.com, anytime. I'd love to have more direct personal contact with you, offer what encouragement I can privately.
May 14, 2009 11:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah Deanie's an expert on having her son in War Zone.
Ellen, you're one of the smartest people in here, and I wouldn't dare tangle with your I.Q., but that comment was BS.
May 14, 2009 12:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Meant as a reply to Ellen, above.
Just your flippance kinda insulting after such a well thought out, and heartfelt post.
May 14, 2009 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Being an Obama fan, I am looking at Obama and wondering what is he thinking. Blago comes to mind, of all people. Obama has a political weapon here. It's golden! He knows how people will feel when these photos are released, and that day will come. I suspect we will see them when the trial is at its peak, or when the Reich rears its ugly head making apologies for their immoral and unethical leadership as those leaders appear certain to be headed to jail. The photos will emerge and anyone with any capacity for human empathy will agree with the result of the trial, and bid them good riddance. Then we can all put this behind us, and as was above-noted, the Muslim world will have no justification for further violence as we will be putting an end to this bitter rancid chapter in our history while taking responsibility for it.
Deanie, I'm agree these photos will escalate the violence in the ME. Weapons will be found in the hands of more people then if they were not released. But i have to go with Zipper too. Until we see and admit what we have done, we will not heal. Maybe we can time this so that there are fewer soldiers in theater when the photos are released.
If we do not suffer the pain of seeing what we have done, we abandon our better future for a more comfortable present. Small wonder we believe the greatest generation is behind us.
May 14, 2009 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent post, Deanie. I have no idea why some here think it appropriate to increase the amount of danger that our troops already face.
May 14, 2009 4:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Because there are people like Lalo and Oleeb who are purist and can't be reasoned with. You would know that from expierence.
Just got to face the fact that there are people you can debate with and there's alot that you can't debate with.
May 14, 2009 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rec'd!!! Thank you for this post, Deanie. I'm so glad to hear a rational argument, something besides the rants that have been going on here, most recently about the change in Afghanistan command. The people who are ranting obviously don't have any confidence in the President and his judgment.
I do have confidence in him, and I feel like he will do what is best for the country. Perhaps part of the problem for us all is a residual feeling of being scammed by the bushies and a need to be extra vigilent of our government. A kind of post traumatic political stress.
May 14, 2009 4:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I need to try and remind myself to read and listen more often than I write.
This post Deanie is one reason why.
Your post helps make me smarter.
Your post reminds me that intelligence requires reflection, and reflection is rare in a 24 hour news cycle; it's rare as so many race to type but not more fully consider.
thanks
May 14, 2009 5:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I usually just read these blogs and don't post anything but this is something dear to my heart. I would love to know if the people that want these photos published have anyone in a war zone??? I would say NO!!! They don't care if harm comes to our troops because they aren't affected by it. Instead of being grateful to the ones who volunteer to serve our country they have the nerve to speak against them and not support them. JNagarya, sign up one of your sons or daughters if you have any and then open you mouth about publishing them photos. Oh, I forget we live in the Land of the Free because of the Brave!!! So, you can freely open your mouth because of our brave men and women serving overseas. My son shed blood in Iraq for you to speak freely. I am sick of hearing about these photos, its done get over it. What the heck do you think these crazy countries do and did to our prisoners. In Iraq they decapitated them and set them on fire. How about Vietnam, WWII and all the other wars and what they did to our POW's. I am proud of those who serve our country. There isn't a person on this earth who I have more respect for or admire more then them.
The proudest day of my life was watching my son marching across the parade deck as he graduated from Marine boot camp. So all I can say is Semper Fi and God Bless this great USA.
May 17, 2009 1:44 AM | Reply | Permalink