Obama's citizenship status.
Okay, I admit it, I'm hooked. I am a conspiracy nut-case, a "birther". I don't think Pres. Obama is either a U.S. citizen or a "natural born" citizen. All I can say to those who would heap scorn on me for this medical condition and pack me of to an insane asylum is, it's nothing personal. This, to me, is simply about facing an inconvenient truth. I hope people will believe me when I say, I wish Obama could absolutely prove he is at least a U.S. citizen, it would at least me feel better about the whole issue. But that would still leave us with the problem of the U.S. Constitution and Art. II Sec. 5.
I will give you just one small example: Obama's trip to Indonesia in 1981. What passport did he use?
His U.S. passport for that period supposedly has never been found as of March 28, 2008, and the only way to get an Indonesian passport was to renounce your U.S. allegiance -- give up your U.S. citizenship.
Then there is guy, John O. Brennan, a former senior CIA official and former interim director of the National Counter-terrorism Center, and CEO of Analysis Corp . You remember him. Brenann's company employee were accused of improperly looking at the passport files of presidential candidates back in March of 2008. Brennan also happened to be at that time a consultant to the Barack Obama campaign, and big-time contributor. The Washington Times, which broke the story stated that Obama's records had been improperly accessed.
So somebody was also interested in Obama's passport history over a year ago. Was Brennan on a mission to plug some holes for Obama at that time, or was he working on his own at the time and is now blackmailing Obama? To me, these are serious questions that must have answers. But it's beyond me. So I think I'll just keep compiling these little snippets of the whole story and write my opus maximus spy story one day when people will actually want to know the truth.
ex animo
davidfarrar
At one time in my life I really wasn't an American citizen according to the State Department. The state that I was born in didn't have watermark on my birth certificate so it wasn't "legal". I know where I was born but the State Department refused to believe me when I applied for a passport pre-9/11.
June 12, 2009 12:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is such bull. If they found any incriminating passport records you think they are just holding it back?
Obama's birth certificate has been viewed, verified, and verified again.
He was born in Hawaii. Period. End of story.
June 12, 2009 12:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know. It would all depend on who found what.
Indonesia did not allow dual citizenship in 1981. If Obama got an Indonesian passport in 1981, when he was 20 years old, he would have had to either already had an Indonesian passport or renounced his own U.S. citizenship. I am thinking he already had one, or at least he did not have a U.S. passport. He may even have had a Kenyan passport.
If John Brennan (or one of his employees) found some incriminating evidence like Obama's 8 USC §1481(a)(2)declaration, he would have been in a perfect position to blackmail Obama for let's say the head of the CIA position or something along those lines. You see, one of the problems you create when you don't tie up lose ends as Obama has failed to do with his refusal to publish his original Hawaiian birth certificate, is that it puts you and thus, the Presidency of the United States itself, in a position to be blackmailed.
Of course, it would have to take someone with an extraordinary amount of specialized skill, knowledge and training in U.S. passport production and archiving and such to go straight to the juggler and find that one piece of irrefutable evidence. If anyone cares to examine John Brennan's curriculum vitae in this area, all they would have to do is Google John O. Brennan.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 2:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2008/12/nationality-act-of-1940-nipping-wingnut.html
Farrar I suggest you take three steps.
One review my blog post above.
Even if Obama had somehow lost his citizenship by some act of his his mother or step-father (say by listing Obama's nationality as 'Indonesisian' on his school id card-which Soetoro did) as long as Obama re-established US residency by the time he was 25 he would regain whatever citizenship he would have lost.Two link through to the Nationality Act of 1940. Perhaps followed up by a reading of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952.
Three concede to yourself that on this subject you are an ignorant blowhard. From the 1952 ACt
As to Kenyan citizenship under the law in Kenya at the time Obama would have been eligible for dual citizenship, but under post-independence Kenyan law would have lost that right if he had not exercised it by age 21.
Since no one doubts that Obama was a resident of the United States during his twenties all of this blather about what passport if any he used on a trip to Asia when he was 19 or so is unsourced ignorant nonsense.
As to McCain the argument is not whether he is a citizen but whether he is a 'natural born citizen'. In fact he was cited in the same wingnut lawsuit of Berg v. D'Onofrio which launched the Birthers to start with.
June 12, 2009 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Slight correction.
Two court cases out there. One was D'Onofrio v Wells. This was the case where D'Onofrio contested the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate. The other was Berg v Obama. This was the one revolving around the Indonesia/Kenya deal.
Neither one ultimately went anywhere because neither had any legal merit. This issue was settled last December.
June 12, 2009 11:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
In Response to Bruce Webb.
Dear Mr. Webb,
I am not pursuing this line of enquiry to perfect the party line. My interest is in getting to the bottom of this topic, to reach a provable truth, nothing more. This is why I have been so interested in your Nationality Act of 1940 post:
and how it fits in with Obama's storyline.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 9:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hi,
I would just like to help you out here so first please check this information on snopes.com regarding President Obama's birth certificate:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp
Bottom line he is an american citizen and he is the President of the United States.
I am a 45 yr old white woman in CO and I wrote to Senator Barack Obama the first time I ever saw him speak on CSpan because I immediately recognized that he was uniquely qualified to be a great president. At the time he had not yet decided to run. I was completely unfamiliar with him before that day. No one every spoke of him or suggested anything about him to me. My choice was based on my direct experience of him.
Hope this helps:)
June 12, 2009 12:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
And no I never drank any koolaid... have generally been registered as an independent unless I wanted to participate in caucuses.
And I don't think he is perfect by any means and I don't agree with all of his decisions (I am pissed off about some of them). I never expected he would inherit the incredible mess left to him by the previous adminstration so I think he's handling himself mostly pretty well under the circumstances. There is NO person I can think of that I would rather have in charge of our country at this time with the incredible mess we are in... can't think of a single person that is better qualified or has better skills... not one.
June 12, 2009 1:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Again, Synch, this is not a political discussion. This, to me, is simply about getting to a provable truth.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 3:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
No, Synch, that's not the bottom line.
There are two major problems with Obama's Certificate of Live Birth being used as the evidence document to prove his place of birth. Number One, unlike the long-form birth certificate, a COLB can be produced up to a full year after birth, and its information comes solely from the applicant by simply filling-in-the-blanks.
And Number Two: Hawaiian Health officials, as a matter of record, have stated they have Obama's original long-form birth certificate, but cannot publish it without authorization from Pres. Obama to do so.
So you see, Synch, the "bottom line" is: Barack Obama is the only person in this entire world who can put an end to this discussion with just one simple phone call, but so far he has refused to do so.
Why?
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 2:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
So, if they say they have it, what's to tell? Is Hawaii the birth certificate bank for Kenyans? Indonesians? Or those born in Hawaii?
Just sayin' They did not say they do not have it. They said they have it. So, I guess that makes him born in Hawaii.
Bottomline: You don't care what anyone says. You are determined to hold the position that BHO is not born in the US. Frankly, I don't care what you think. I know who is President, Barack Hussein Obama.
If ya love conspiracies, I know this one about a former Secreatary of Defense, heading to the world's largest defense contractor to be CEO who became the Vice President and then started a war without any factual basis whatsoever to inflate the value of that company astronomically.
Yeah, I know, THAT's a stretch.
June 12, 2009 3:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
GregorZap,
Anybody can say anything they want or need to. We are talking about the most powerful position in the world. A position whose requirements are set forth in the Constitution. So far the only document Barack Obama has evidenced to support his claim to be a "natural born" U.S. citizen, as required by Art. II, Sec. 5 is a Hawaiian COLB. That's like presenting a note from your mommy saying you were born where ever she says your were born.
Likewise for the Hawaiian health officials. They haven't sworn to anything. They simply made a statement in the press. Is that what you want to bet your life on?
Just saying they have it doesn't make him born in Hawaii
Bottom-line: Barack Obama's COLB doesn't prove he was born in Hawaii. His grandmother in Kenya swears he was born in Kenya and dismisses anyone who thinks differently.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 4:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oops--you just gave yourself away.
Synchronicity wrote,
Davidfarrar, you replied,
I'm no expert on logic, but I smell a fallacy in here. If you're being intellectually honest with yourself, why take for granted that these questions about Obama's citizenship aren't specious themselves?
June 12, 2009 10:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
In Response to: worthlesscitizen.
I am not sure I understand your point. I didn't have to qualify to run for the presidency, Barack Obama did. These qualification are clearly stated in the U.S. Constitution in Art. II, Sec. I, Par. 5. It is his burden of proof, not mine. So far he has only offered as "proof", a totally unsubstantiated document that was essentially filled out by his mother.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 11:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
What you seem to be forgetting is that the "certification of birth"--i.e. Obama's birth certificate--is legal proof. It's good enough for Hawaii and the State Department.
If you want to accuse the sun of being absent, you could argue that the shiny disc in the sky during the day is really some kind of artificial sun-substitute. But that doesn't mean the sun owes you proof. Get over it, man. Your willful ignorance isn't our problem; it's yours.
June 12, 2009 11:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
In Repsonse to worthlesscitizen,
A COLB is not accepted at all U.S. government agencies where proof of U.S. citizenship is required, nor even at all Hawaiian agencies where proof of U.S. citizenship is required.
Again, a COLB is essentially a self-proclaimed document. It is not "proof" of anything.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Farrar you have not done any due diligence on this. Here are links which give high quality PDFs of Obama's COLB (and Hawaii doesn't make any distinction between that and a 'Birth Certificate'.)
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
Unless Obama somehow managed to get hold of an official state seal and the record certification stamp the idea that this is somehow self-reporting is complete and utter crap.
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_7.jpg (2MB pdf)
June 12, 2009 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
In Response to Bruce Webb,
Dear Mr. Webb,
As I have mentioned on a previous post, it is fascinating to me just how many changes the FactCheck photograph has seemingly changed over time. But, as I said, I do think we are making progress here. It seems evident to me now that Barack Obama really doesn't actually have a long-form Hawaiian birth certificate, at least not in this country anyway. And as you have so kindly pointed out, on the face of it, whether he was born in Hawaii or in Kenya, for our purposes, it is irrelevant, under The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952.
June 12, 2009 10:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wish we could recommend comments. Just for that one.
June 12, 2009 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry but you're not documenting anything and it sounds like a lot of bunk to me that you are looking for things above and beyond what is needed to know that he 'is' an american citizen.
I can tell you that it is not possible for me to get an original copy of my birth certificate anymore because of changes that the state of Indiana made in how they produce them over the years. I was born in 1963. I can only get completely different looking copies that do not provide all of the same information.
As I said, seems like you need a controversy to exist around this and are borrowing conspiracy notions because you want them to exist. It seems that you 'want' to doubt and I will leave you to your desire. I should not have involved myself. Good Luck.
June 12, 2009 3:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Synch,
It's not me who has to document anything.
And with all due respect, it takes more than being an American to qualify for the office of the Presidency of the United States, according to Art. II, Sec. 5 of the U.S. Constitution.
You may very well not be able to get your own birth certificate copied. I am sure you are right. But in Barack Obama's case, that's not the problem. As I said, Hawaiian health officials have stated they have his original birth certificate. What they don't have is Obama's permission to publish it.
Why not?
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 4:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama has an officially certified and sealed copy of his COLB which he allowed to be photographed and displayed on the web more than six months ago.
Not only is your overall premise ridiculous, all of your conspiracy claims are not actually factual. It would have taken about 30 seconds of Googling to get to sites with ultra-clear images.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
All you are doing is channeling known Swift Boat liar Jerome Corsi who was the guy that started spreading this crap through wingnuttya months ago.
Give it a rest dude.
June 12, 2009 12:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
In Response to Bruce Webb
Dear Mr. Webb,
Still, I wish Pres. Obama would be more forthcoming in allowing closer inspection of his original COLB for verification purposes. In essence, all we have is a digital copy of his original COLB, which has been called into question by Ron Polarik, who holds a Ph.D. in Instructional Media. See his report here.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 10:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Have you even visited the Snopes.com page linked to? You claim to want facts, but are unwilling to even investigate facts when placed under your nose? Comments to blog posts are limited to two links per post. The Snopes.com page linked to will in turn link to:
- An Entry at PolitiFacts, which is published by the St. Petersburg Times, offering its own analysis of this assertion's dubiousness.
- A FactCheck dot org page detailing that their own "staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate", and they also published full resolution photographs of its front, as well as two of the back, including an official embossed seal, and the official signature stamp of Hawaii State Registrar. The title of the document at the top is indeed, "Certificate of Live Birth", yet on the document's front are also two references to it being a "Certificate". Let me help your understand: It is a Certificate of Live birth or to make it clear enough to punch through the extraordinarily dense ossiferous matter the protects the vacuous space between birthers' ears: A Live Birth Certificate. The front of the document also clearly states that the "City, Town or Location of Birth" was Honolulu. At the bottom of the document's front is found, "This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact pf birth in any court proceeding. [HRS 228-12(b), 339-19]"
- A page published at WhatReallyHappened dot com, which published microfiche scans to birth announcements from both The Honolulu Advertiser and The Honolulu Star Bulletin newpapers, published August 4th, 1961, noting Obama's birth.
This Official Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth is accepted by the US Department of State in passport applications. so why is it that you believe Obama would not have traveled in 1981 to Pakistan under a US Passport? Now don't give me the lame "Pakistan was on The State Department's list of banned countries in 1981" line either, because that is absolutely false. In 1981, Pakistan was considered to be a loyal US ally helping us Arm/Train the Arab Freedom fighters to wage war upon the Soviet in Afghanistan. There were throngs of American citizens facilitating this goal in 1981. State did have a travel advisory out, detailing that Pakistan only issued 30-day visad to tourists, and that any exit from Pakistan via a land route, would require a valid visa from India.Clearly, a primary basis for your charge that Obama carried an Indonesian Passport in 1981 is deeply flawed, making it suspect.
Your rumour-mongering insinuations about John O. Brennan were a bit more difficult to disprove, and the logic required may well exceed the a conspiracy theory true-believer's capabilities but I'll give it a try.
John O. Brennan is CEO of the Analysis Corp. In March 2008, it was revealed that three-contract State Department employees had unlawfully accessed the Passport database, and the files of McCain, Clinton, and Obama. Two of the three contract eployees worked for Stanley Inc., and the third for the Analysis Corp.The two Stanley Inc. employees were immediately terminated. The Analysis Corp. employee was reprimanded, and had access to the Passport DB taken away from him.
See: Kate Bolduan, "Chief of firm involved in breach is Obama adviser", CNN News, March 22, 2008
The Analysis Corp's website describes itself thusly:
Stanley Inc's website describes itself thusly: A September 22, 2008, Department of Justice Press Release says:Yountz worked "as an intelligence analyst", he could not have been employed by Stanley Inc., and must have been the previously reprimanded Analysis Corp, contract employee. Since Yountz had, over a three-yrst period, "viewed the passport applications of approximately 200 celebrities, athletes, actors, politicians and their immediate families, musicians, game show contestants, members of the media corps, prominent business professionals, colleagues, associates, neighbors and individuals identified in the press", it seems self-evident that he did not access McCain's and Obama's passport records with nefarious political intent. He was being voyeuristic.
June 12, 2009 8:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Good job, Ant.
June 12, 2009 9:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
In reply top PseudoCyAnts,
Nothing at Snopes.com., which I did indeed visit, along with PolitiFacts, Factcheck and the other sites you offered, contained anything that couldn't have and probably was produced by Obama's mother, herself. You see, that's the problem we "birthers" face here. When all is said and done, the ONLY document Barack Obama has evidenced to his U.S. citizenship is his Hawaiian Certificate of Live Birth. It's probably what he has been doing all his adult life.
The photograph FactCheck of his COLB shows a curious ability to morph over time. The first one they presented has the Certification Number blackened out. Obama's campaign staff admitted they were in a rush to get something out and weren't sure of their authorization, so they simply blackened out the number. It wasn't folded twice and didn't appear to have a seal, even when examined closely by experts using sensitive lights designed to reveal such embossments. In time, FactCheck's photograph of Obama's COLB added all of these features, one by one, until now we have a correct rendition. Well, almost.
I hope you will forgive this nutty "birther" if I don't believe a couple of staffers at FactCheck who now claim to have seen, touched, examined and photographed Obama's "original, long-form, birth certificate". I am willing to bet what they actual saw, felt and examined was Obama's Certificate of Live Birth document and not his original, long-form birth certificate. The reason why I say this is because the article starts out by stating, "In June, the Obama campaign released a digitally scanned image of his birth certificate"... For the record, to date nobody has seen Obama's original, long-form, birth certificate. As you, yourself state,"The document held in the hands of a FactCheck staffer is simple a copy of Obama's Certificate of Live Birth", nothing more. But you are quite correct, it does indeed have the word "Certificate" typed at the top.
As I have explained, the problem we have with any COLB is that it is produced by the applicants themselves within a year after the birth. Unlike a long-form birth certificate, with an attending physician, footprints etc. that is filled out at birth.
The same problem exists with newspaper announcements, they are self-generated as well.
I would, of course, accept as prima facie evidence of Obama's U.S. citizenship if a U.S. Passport was indeed issued to Obama in 1981 on his traveles to Pakistan under a US Passport. If you have a referencing link to that information send it to John Brannen -- he's still looking for it, as am I.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 10:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Farrar now you are out and out lying.
That certified COLB is an official product of the State of Hawaii. The head of the Department of Health and the Register of Vital Statistics both assert that they examined the original.
"Update Nov. 1: The Associated Press quoted Chiyome Fukino as saying that both she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate."
June 12, 2009 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
In Response to Bruce Webb.
You know I, too, am beginning to believe Hawaiian Health officials may be referring to Obama's COLB when they say they have Obama's (long-form) birth certificate on file and they have seen Obama's "original" birth certificate, which actually is his COLB.
If there is one thing I have consistently seen in all of these sites is the fact that they really make no distinction between a certificate of live birth and a long-form birth certificate. Hawaii does issue both, and they are not interchangeable. So to say Barack Obama original, long-form birth certificate is simply his COLB is factually wrong. Obama's COLB , standing alone, does not prove he is a U.S. citizen, whereas a true, long-form Hawaiian birth certificate would.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
In Response to PseudoCyAnts' post of
June 12, 2009 8:53 AM
The Washington Times
April 19, 2008
Key Witness In Passport Fraud Case Fatally Shot
A key witness in a federal probe into passport information stolen from the State Department was fatally shot in front of a District church, the Metropolitan Police Department said yesterday.
Lt. Quarles Harris Jr., 24, who had been cooperating with a federal investigators, was found late Thursday night slumped dead inside a car, in front of the Judah House Praise Baptist Church in Northeast, said Cmdr. Michael Anzallo, head of the department’s Criminal Investigations Division.
Cmdr. Anzallo said a police officer was patrolling the neighborhood when gunshots were heard, then Lt. Harris was found dead inside the vehicle, which investigators would describe only as a blue car.
Emergency medics pronounced him dead at the scene.
And the holes just keep on getting plugged.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 22, 2009 6:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are you seriously trying to say that with all the resources of the republican party, President Obama is not a citizen of the United States, and no one was able to confirm that PRIOR to the election?
I think not.
June 12, 2009 1:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
In Response to stillidealistic,
Yes.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 11:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm inclined to say, let's not feed the....
Ya know?
June 12, 2009 1:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
oh, yeah...
June 12, 2009 1:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Really, folks. It's a wast of time. And if I am here saying this, well, it's probably true, isn't it?
June 12, 2009 1:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jeezzz man how much evidence do you need? I was a hard core die hard Hillary supporter during the primaries to the bitter end. I would have loved it if there was any rational way I could push the Obama birth issue. I would have road that horse till it died if there wasn't overwhelming evidence that he's an American citizen. But there was no way I could. Its absolutely clear that Obama was born in the US. Look at this site.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
There's the birth certificate with the embossed raised seal. Its got the signature stamp, the certificate number. Even a birth announcement that had been published in the Honolulu Advertiser. You birthers are insane and there's no evidence that will ever convince you.
June 12, 2009 6:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
In Response to oceankak,
Just an independent authorization of Obama's Hawaiian long-form birth certificate; that's all! Or a U.S. passport, I'm not picky.
Lastly, an explanation from him as to how he thinks he meets the requirements to take the oath of office of the presidency of the United States as set forth in Art. II, Sec.I, Par. 5 of the U.S Constitution.
Let me be clear here; I am not asking Barack Obama to do anything I can't do, would be most willing to do, even honored to do any time.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 11:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
They don't believe it because they don't want to. It's like anything else. If you want to think bread is poisonous, for example, or that everyone on Earth except for you is a very convincing android, no one will talk you out of it.
June 12, 2009 11:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
Birthers are truly silly. End of thought. . .
June 12, 2009 7:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
But that would still leave us with the problem of the U.S. Constitution and Art. II Sec. 5.
A thorny problem indeed, given that there is no Art. II, Sec. 5 in the US Constitution.
If you're going to be absurdly persnickety, you should at least be consistently absurdly persnickety. Because if you drop the persnickety part, you simply become consistently absurd.
June 12, 2009 8:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, you are right. I stand corrected.
I meant to write Art. II, Sec I, Paragraph 5.
I apologize for any confusion.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 9:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Time to get a life!
June 12, 2009 8:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sometimes it's better just to be thought a fool than to put hand to keyboard and remove all doubt.
June 12, 2009 9:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Let's address the author's "evidence."
Who is "supposedly" looking for the passport? Has anyone contacted the National Archives to see if there is a US passport re-application on file for that period? They have that stuff.
Snooping through files to "plug holes?" What holes were going to be plugged by getting caught? Would you make the same argument about Bill Clinton's passport? Remember that little incident, back in 1992, when a George HW Bush Political Appointee was illegaly rifling through Bill Clinton's passport files to try and prove him a communist? Let me refresh your memory:
If you really want to do an investigation, consider John McCain's eligibility to run for President. They guy was born in Panama. Does that make him a "natural born citizen?"
June 12, 2009 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
In Respose to: Citoyen92
Yes it does. The record reflects that both of John McCain's parents were U.S. citizens at the time of his birth, irrespective of where he was born. If Barack Obama has a similar record as well, I will gladly end this discussion and apologize for any inconvenience I may have caused him or his family, or the good people here at TPM.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 11:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Whether or not birthers want to have this discussion is utterly inconsequential.
June 12, 2009 11:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
For a little background on what a "natural born" citizen is, please click here.
June 13, 2009 8:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama's parents' citizenship is irrelevant to this argument or his own citizenship status.
Let me direct you to the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
June 12, 2009 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Farrar that would not satisfy the question of McCain being a Natural Born Citizen.
You haven't even mastered the material put out by your fellow Birthers. Man if there is something even more embarrassing that being a conspiracy theorist it is such a theorist who hasn't even gotten the party line right.
Neither Obama's place of birth or the age of his mother at his birth have anything to do with his citizenship, all that is the result of a mis-reading of the Nationality Act of 1940.
http://tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/2008/10/did-obama-becom.html
If Obama's mother had married Soetoro prior to 1922 she would have had to take positive steps to regain her citizenship. But since she wasn't even born at the time the question is moot.
In the end the Natural Born Citizen argument does not revolve around the issue of citizenship itself, and no one doubts that kids born to military parents overseas are citizens (I have one brother who was born in Bermuda and another born in pre-Statehood Hawaii and that question has never come up) but whether those kids are by that fact also Natural Born Citizens. It is worth noting that the Senate felt the issue was murky enough that they passed a resolution affirming that McCain in fact was a natural born citizen, something they didn't even feel they needed to do for Obama.
June 12, 2009 12:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
In Response to Bruce Webb.
It is unfortunate these post/response post don't fall in their proper sequence. But let me try and draw some conclusions I have reached to date, largely with your help; I might add.
Barack Obama doesn't actually have a long-form birth certificate. He has a Certificate of Live Birth. And however faulty that document may be in establishing citizenship, it is irrelevant due to the provisions of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952.
Now, I believe we can rightfully turn our attention to whether Barack Obama is a "natural born" U.S. citizen as required under Art. II, Sec. I, Clause 5 of the U.S. Constitution.
It is my contention that Barack Obama is not a natural born U.S. citizen, due to the fact that only one of his parents was a U.S. citizen at the time of his birth.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 10:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
One later point to address with Mr. Webb.
The Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1952 would not control the U.S. citizenship status of Obama if he had been born abroad. That controlling legal interest would be Immigration-and-Nationality-Act/Section-301(g)1952.
(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other
a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person.
So if Obama was born in Kenya, he would not be a U.S. citizen by statute.
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 15, 2009 11:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
You can not project an image of reason and then deny all reasonability.
You are pretty much like a flat-earther who will reject all evidence of a spherical earth because you can not see an entire sphere from your singular vantage point.
I other words, you are relying strictly on your senses and then creating an atmosphere of doubt because your senses do not reveal the entire truth.
Well, duh. That is like looking at the Mona lisa and denying that it is painted on canvas because the paint obscures your view.
June 12, 2009 3:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
In Response to Zipperupus,
I am looking at a man (Barack Obama) who is not a natual born U.S. citizen; am I not?
ex animo
davidfarrar
June 12, 2009 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink