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Clarifying epiphanies


Barack GorbachevBarack Obama is extraordinarily intelligent and yes he probably is the best man to be president right now... but that probably wont make a bit of difference. It is the system and the ideology on which it rests that are in a blind alley. When the people of a huge and powerful country think that the solution to their problems is a leader, that makes me very nervous.

The United States is in a systemic breakdown and people think that Obama is going to fix it. It reminds me about how people in the West viewed Gorbachev before the USSR collapsed. Not Lincoln, not Gandhi, not FDR: Gorbachev.

Gorbachev was and is a very decent and intelligent man who just happened to be standing on the bridge when the Titanic went down.

http://seaton-newslinks.blogspot.com/


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What do you imagine you are basing these grand generalizations on? Just recently TPM was running a banner saying that 70% or whatever don't think Obama will be able to fix the economic crisis. And for that matter, who thinks that Obama himself is the solution to their problems? Obama will be the President, but there are very few problems a President, even a very good one, can solve single-handedly. Maybe a few that can be resolved with an executive order. But you'd have a hard time finding anyone who thinks that any of the major problems facing us right now can be solved by something that simple.

Do you even know (in real life) one single person who is in this large population of people you've cooked up in your imagination, a population of people who are thinking that Obama is the solution to all their problems, that he's some kind of messiah, etc? You seem to be extrapolating from blog entries and such that are cherry-picked to support the view you've become attached to.

The cherry-picking is obvious because everything that doesn't fit your view, all the disagreements over whether Obama is doing sensible things with the bailout proposals and with his cabinet selections and so on and so on and so on, none of that dents the reality you've created in your imagination. You're sitting there thousands of miles away with your nose buried in a browser hour after hour after hour, searching for photoshopped pictures and random snippets of text that will help you grind your axes. Why?

How about writing instead about something you know something about, something you know first-hand? Tell us about Spanish politics. Write a column on Spanish food, restaurants, wines, whatever. Post a "Spanish word of the day" blog. Those are presumably things you actually know something about. You'd be a lot better at it.

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Of course Obama is doing and going to do sensible things, he is a very sensible person and all the people he is going to work with are probably sensible too.

As far as that goes, in the year 2000, everybody thought that Cheney and Rumsfeld were sensible and Colin Powell actually was sensible and look where all that has ended.

What I am trying to communicate is that what this is all about is the failure of a system, not individuals... no not even Bush.

Here is a quote from Thomas Friedman in today's NYT. I am not a great admirer of Friedman's, but here he puts his finger in the wound

That’s how we got here — a near total breakdown of responsibility at every link in our financial chain, and now we either bail out the people who brought us here or risk a total systemic crash. These are the wages of our sins. I used to say our kids will pay dearly for this. But actually, it’s our problem. For the next few years we’re all going to be working harder for less money and fewer government services — if we’re lucky.
And funny enough, all this is much more evident if you live outside the USA than if you live inside it. One of the problems most Americans have in understanding what is happening to them is that they live totally and exclusively immersed in the day to day reality of American life -- which is a surreally massive continuum -- and have been completely de-contextualized by its wall to wall fog of media maya.
How about writing instead about something you know something about, something you know first-hand?

A very fair criticism.
Factoid: Everybody everywhere in the world is living the USA "first hand", whether they like it or not, and understands America better than most Americans do.

Believe me it was a long and painful experience for an American like me to acquire that knowledge and that is what I have to contribute to the discussion.

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Factoid: Everybody everywhere in the world is living the USA "first hand", whether they like it or not, and understands America better than most Americans do.

David, do you hear yourself? The only explanation, other than you try to be a condescending ass on purpose, is that you do not.

There are millions of people in this country who didn't see the financial crisis coming and who don't think much about it in their daily lives except insomuch as they struggle to make ends meet. But the same argument can be made for the majority of populations in any country. To suggest somehow that the entire world knows America better than anyone who lives here is just plain stupid.

It's also insulting, so I guess from your perspective, mission accomplished.

Try suggesting to Spaniards that they don't understand their own country as well as the rest of the European union. I'm sure your blog would surge in popularity among your Spanish readers.

And please, please, please, I am begging you: take bobbobfofob's advice and write just one thing about a topic that is not about how certain you are that the apocalypse has arrived.

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Actually the United States is everywhere, its films, its images, its politics, its food.

The best phrase on this was from a Spaniard who once said, "America has colonized our subconscious".

Spaniards know about Spain... and America. The French know about France... and America... and so on and so on. Americans only know about America, except for a huge percentage that probably can't even locate their own country on a map, and very little else.

If America didn't affect other countries so much, this isolation wouldn't matter that much, but as it is it's dangerous.

If anything was positive about 9/11 is was that it managed to catch American's attention. If anything has been positive about Bush, it has been his getting so many people to ask themselves so many hard questions.

I'm afraid that people are going to stop asking the questions now.

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David, it's so much more complicated than Americans dumb/rest of the world smart. There are plenty of Americans who are engaged and interested in the rest of the world and there are plenty of "the rest of the world" who don't give America much thought past "its films, its images, its politics, its food."

When people look at the world outside of their own country, they can commonly make the mistake of oversimplifying and stereotyping (and I would argue that you have fallen into that trap in viewing your former country of residence).

When I lived overseas, I got questions that led me to believe that many of my students had the impression that drugs were handed out in school classrooms and an American citizen's fondest wish was to appear on Jerry Springer.

Have I watched the Jerry Springer show? Have I seem a Rambo movie? Have I eaten Kentucky Fried Chicken? Sadly, yes to all three. But none of those facts significantly informs my experience as an American, nor does it inform the experience of my family or of anybody that I know.

You either refuse to see nuance and complexity, or have no concept of it. I find that incredibly frustrating.

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There are millions of people in this country who didn't see the financial crisis coming and who don't think much about it in their daily lives except insomuch as they struggle to make ends meet.

Except that the warning signs have all been there all along. Housing bubbles. Mortgages that were too good to be true. Even those plugged into FNC saw Peter Schiff point out, fairly accurately, what would happen -- and when. Of course, he was drowned out by the other side -- but that doesn't mean the information wasn't there for consideration.

It's true that people tend to think of the here and now (even if they aren't "struggling") and choose to ignore signs.

There are those of us on this board who have continually mentioned that we are at the end of cheap energy, for example, only to be drowned out as pessimistic by some. Or that the world can't sustain this level of population, or a host of other issues. Oil is still in terribly short supply presently -- the recent drop in price is temporary. If the US (and Global) economies recover, expect the price to snap back as high (or higher) than it was before. In the meantime, are people preparing for that eventuality?

I wonder when these things come to be recognized by the general group as "factual" -- will the idea be that "millions didn't see it coming"?

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Under the best of circumstances it would be difficult to make the argument that you know America better than Americans who live here know America by virtue of NOT living here. However, putting the word "factoid" in front of the assertion, and making the assertion without actually making an argument in support of that assertion, isn't the way to go about it.

But it works even less well because you demonstrate just the opposite over and over again. You repeatedly make sweeping generalizations that don't even come close to being accurate.

It would be difficult enough to get an accurate picture from reading stuff on the web, even for someone who spends the forty hours a week you say you spend with your nose stuck in a browser. Extremely difficult to get anything approximating an accurate impression that way, given the inherent filtering and selection that influences what will bubble up on web sites.

But it wouldn't be difficult at all to get a more accurate picture than you have. What makes it so clear that you're not making a good faith effort to get an accurate picture is that your sweeping generalizations don't even match up with what is posted on this very site which you allegedly read. It's like a freeper showing up here and trying to talk like a progressive, but having in mind only the sort of one-dimensional stereotype of liberals that one might get from reading freeper-type web sites.

So I'll revise my advice.

First, get a clearer picture of what you know, and what you don't know. Cherry-picking stuff from the web that fits your preconceptions isn't a path to knowledge. (And in any case, you seem to put more work into finding photoshopped pictures and trying to find "clever" metaphors than to actually constructing arguments that do anything but reword and repeat the same assertions over and over without adding any substantial support.)

Then write what you know. Write about Spain, Spanish food, Spanish politics, Spanish language. Tell us what the Spanish papers say about Obama. Tell us about housing prices in Spain. About the Spanish education system. About Spanish television.

Write something you know first-hand.

And also consider spending a lot less than forty hours a week with your nose stuck in a browser. It's not doing you any good.

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I repeat: the whole world experiences the USA first hand. Probably a Pashtun peasant understands the USA far better than you do, certainly any Iraqi does.

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"Probably a Pashtun peasant understands the USA far better than you do, certainly any Iraqi does."

I'm sorry, that's just not a defensible statement. The US is SO not a homogeneous society, and so far beyond the ken of a tribal, rural peasant. You just blew several posts worth of attaboys with one asinine statement.

"If you're not FROM the suburbs, you better not COME to the suburbs, cuz you wouldn't UNDERSTAND the suburbs." ~ BHG

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This is one for the annals of unhinged hyperbole. Reminds me of Prof. Farnsworth on Futurama: "Yes, there's no safer occupation than mining. Especially when you're on a snowball whipping through space at a million miles an hour! Whoo whoo whoo whoooo! Safe!"

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You can repeat it all you want. You're still wrong. And insulting and offensive to boot. Congratulations.

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Obama can't fix it, but I believe he can make the situation much better.

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I think Obama can make Americans feel much better about themselves, which is nice, and remove some of the bad feeling that Bush has left around the planet, which is also nice, but, I think the problems we face are systemic and I don't see any signs of changes in the system itself.

What is happening now is huge in my opinion and can only be compared with the fall of the Soviet Union... How it will play out is impossible to predict because it too complex, but I don't think individuals are anymore than window dressing. Obviously a pretty show window (Obama) is nicer to contemplate than a broken window like Bush. But this pretty show window is also a distraction from the real problem, which I repeat, is the system, the society itself.

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Please continue to enlighten us daily, Father Seaton! If not for your tireless efforts, none of us (US) would understand that we have been led astray and are hopelessly doomed. It is you, not Obama, who we should fall on our knees and praise.

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Who am I to question you, you might ask? (And no doubt you have, given your apparent degree of self-regard.) I am no one special. A lump of clay. Lumpen proletariat. The kind of reader that you might aspire to dazzle or dismay. Nonetheless endowed with some measure of dogged intelligence (Mama always said I had a certain stick-to-itiveness). A bit of discriminative awareness. Some small ability to assess the value and utility of the ideas I encounter. And I am not detecting much of value or utility in the ideas you put forth.

You appear to be a self-styled 'wiser-than-thou' prophet of doom. A thankless occupation in a world full of hopeful people. Apparently though, you find it rewarding in some way. I would guess that the returns are diminishing over time, though. Would it be worth considering that if the great majority of commenters here find your ideas wholly without merit, it may in fact indicate a fault in the ideas or the philosophy underlying them? Would it be worth considering that hope indeed does spring eternal, and that you may be mistaken in dismissing that phenomenon as a manifestation of ignorance?

By all means continue to cry out the same old tune in the wilderness if it pleases you. But please don't be surprised if passersby complain about the noise or hurl bottles, fish heads, dead cats or eptithets. And don't be surprised if you happen to find me naggingly sticking to your shoe occasionally.

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Pigs are flying. I basically agree with a Seaton blog post. I will be greatly (and pleasantly) surprised if eight years of Obama results in a more sustainable America. However, I think the forces demanding an imperial foreign policy and an economy based on deficit spending (both at the national level and by the american citizenry) are too powerful for an eloquent politician to overcome. Furthermore, I am not even convinced that Obama sees our country as deeply flawed as I do.

I just hope he is able to put in place lasting policies that protect working and middle class people from the worst depradations of our economic elites. But I've never been too keen on American exceptionalism anyway.

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David - Sometimes I wonder if you shouldn't be taking an anti-depressant ;)

Speaking for myself, for that is all I can do. I am not looking for Obama to "fix it" single handily.(That would be absurd and truly a false hope.) What I am hoping for is that he is an effective commander of the ship of state who brings on an intelligent group of officers and crew to help steer the US on a new course. Keep in mind it doesn't have to be a radical course shift. Any course shift would be a vast improvement of the one we have been on for the past eight years.


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Makes me seek anti-depressant pharmacology, that's for sure.

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"Of course Obama is doing and going to do sensible things, he is a very sensible person and all the people he is going to work with are probably sensible too.

As far as that goes, in the year 2000, everybody thought that Cheney and Rumsfeld were sensible and Colin Powell actually was sensible and look where all that has ended.

What I am trying to communicate is that what this is all about is the failure of a system, not individuals... no not even Bush."

No, I'm sorry, it is by definition not sensible to to reprehensible things. Colin Powell knowingly lied to the U.N. . Rummy and Darth Cheney willfully broke the Geneva Accords, that the U.S. is obliged to obey AS U.S. LAW. . They weren't "decent, sensible people" unless you don't require peope to have any moral backbone whatsoever to meet your definition of "decent and sensible".

And Powell wasn't decent and sensible even before this, he was the first commissioned officer to try to whitewash the Mai Lai massacre in Viet Nam.

And, for your information, I think more U.S. citizens (living in the country) than ever before are hoping for a president and government that pulls with us, instead of against us. That is the way it should be, and now, I think, it is the way that it shall be, for at least 4 years.

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It really isn't that complex. The system is broken, but it is decisions and actions taken by people that broke it. Decisions and actions by people can get us back on track.

It will help to have a smart President for a change. Americans don't expect miracles, they just want competence.

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Not just competence - integrity, as well.

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I think the point you are making is very interesting. What if, despite having good intentions and a mandate, Obama simply can't turn this thing around?

I don't have much of an opinion, but I'd like to see that discussed more.

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Here is a nice quote

Britain has seen the Obama effect before. In 1997, a fresh-faced politician called Anthony Blair, promising the sun, the moon, and the stars, spoke with a passionate intensity that was somewhat lacking in detail and was elected to office in the land. His was a bright new dawn: a government that governed for the many not the few, as he put it, giving the country a fresh start after a long-lasting, decrepit, and exhausted government had been thoroughly discredited. Within a short time, this former unilateral-disarmer had proved himself the most belligerent and bellicose leader of Britain in recent times, willing to attack anyone as long as the victim couldn’t fight back. His protests at the corruption of the previous government soon seemed to be more at its trifling scale rather than its dishonesty. What had been but a cottage industry became wholesale looting, peculation, influence-peddling, and embezzlement, all under a careful cover of legality and deep public purpose. Nothing like it had been seen since the 18th century. Shady businessmen of every nationality (and none) were sure of a receptive ear (and purse). With freedom in his mouth, Prime Minister Blair created one new criminal offense a day for ten years and oversaw an unprecedented increase in bureaucratic control and official surveillance. Profligate with spending public funds to build an immense constituency of dependents, ranging from the near destitute to multimillionaires created by government contracts, he left a country—though of course not himself—on the brink of ruin. Speaking with evangelical fervor and giving every appearance of taking himself in, he behaved with a lack of scruple that left even cynics amazed and departed office the most reviled man in his nation’s recent history. I hope I am wrong in seeing an analogy with President-elect Obama. I hope that his rhetoric does not conceal as empty an interior as Blair’s. That his youthfulness and rhetorical idealism do not belie an authoritarianism. That his moralizing does not conceal a lack of scruple and contempt for due process. That by social justice he does not mean pork barrel. But I do not think the auguries are good. When I heard him promise that he would cut taxes for 95 percent of Americans, I wondered how anyone could believe it for a moment, or that he would go through the budget line by line, as he said he would. Compared to that, Fairyland is intensely real.
That sums up a lot of my unease... That Obama might be a "brown Blair".

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' . . . Obama might be a "brown Blair".'

Is that the sort of 'just between us whites' racist banter that was popular in your youth, or is maybe still popular in your circle of friends? The underpinnings of your contempt for Obama are showing.

Not all of us are white, or racist, or amused by you.

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"Brown Blair" is a play on the words "brown bear".
Really I think the fact that Obama is a person of color has been of great advantage to him and cannot be considered irrelevant or some sort of magic cloak of invisibility. Certainly it blurs the resemblance to Tony Blair. Anyway when POTUS is an African-American this changes the entire concept of ethnic humor. What is unfair is to make humorous references to the vulnerable and downtrodden, since when is the President of the USA a person that needs your protection? Nobody has any objections to making fun of poor whites. With Obama we have entered into the era of "post-racial" politics.

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'With Obama we have entered into the era of "post-racial" politics.'

Convenient cover for the racist banter you will no doubt continue to deliver.

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I repeat: the whole world experiences the USA first hand.

Here's Seaton in a nutshell: he thinks that repeating an assertion is the same as making an argument to support the assertion.

Even a nutty assertion like "the whole world experiences the USA first hand" in support of his ability to believe his own sweeping generalizations about what Americans are thinking, even when those generalizations don't fit the polling data and don't fit what people here tell him about their own beliefs.

The polling data alone would tell him that most Americans aren't optimistic about anyone solving the economic crisis. And it would be hard to find anyone at all who thinks that Obama will solve it single-handedly. Even just a casual perusal of this web site would show him ardent Obama expressing concerns about how Obama is approaching the problem, and about whether the problem is too big for any attempted solution to turn things around any time soon, and so on.

But he knows better. He experiences the USA "first hand" by sitting thousands of miles away with his nose stuck in a web browser forty hours a week.

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I'm working on a post to back up "the whole world experiences the USA first hand". It'll be up in an hour or so.

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Oh, please God, no! Not a good idea. Sitting quietly until the mania passes is better. A cold washcloth across the eyes can help.

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But it won't back it up. For one thing, you can't experience something "first hand" if you're experiencing it remotely. By definition.

For another thing, you wouldn't know how to back up an argument if your internet connection depended on it. Making an assertion doesn't do it. Making the assertion every day, day in and day out, doesn't do it. Putting the assertion in a quote box doesn't do it. Slapping a photoshopped picture on it doesn't do it. Using a lame metaphor doesn't do it. Tossing a bunch of "great quotes" around doesn't do it.

Start from the definition of "first hand." Think about the difference of interacting with people in real life, and getting your impressions via blog posts and so on. Even if you didn't cherry-pick the ones that fit your fantasies, and even if you doubled the forty hours you say you surf the web every week, you still wouldn't be experiencing any of it "first hand."

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The United State is projected everywhere: the world is crawling with Americans and things American. Have you never been abroad?

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Right here in America, I meet foreigners all the time. But I never assume that, because I've had a few conversations or formed a few friendships, that I understand their countries better than they do. Your deficiencies of logic are astounding.

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The United States is projected to other countries through several filters. Anyone who thinks they understand us based on what gets projected is seriously deluding themselves, and that goes for ex-pats, too. You have demonstrated repeatedly how poorly you understand us. What's sad is that there are people in Spain who no doubt trust your opinion of us.

On a totally unrelated note, what's your opinion on the Queen of Spain and her views on Creationism?

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David wants The U.S. to crash and burn so badly, it makes you wonder.

Maybe David needs to ask himself why it is he has a need to wish such horrid things on people he doesn't understand, or even know.

(shudder)

Creepy.

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It's really adolescent, this "the world is going down the drain, kiss your ass good-bye" stuff. That has always been said, and doesn't ever quite happen. It's facile and pointless.

And these pictures are almost enough for me to "Report Abuse".

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David Seaton

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