Illegal Aliens: Access to Health Care System -- NO WAY
President Obama:
"Even though I do not believe we can extend coverage to those who are here illegally, I also don't simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken. That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else.
This statement President Obama makes no sense. Its three statements merged into one. You don't want to give coverage to illegal aliens. You think the immigration system is broken. And you strongly support getting all legal citizens quality health insurance. I'm not sure if this was intentional or just a mistake.
Mr. Obama added, "If anything, this debate underscores the necessity of passing comprehensive immigration reform and resolving the issue of 12 million undocumented people living and working in this country once and for all."
This is one issue where Democrats and I part. If we know these people are here illegally then by law we must send them back home at the very least.
To assume that we can pick a day out of the blue and declare all illegal aliens American citizens is ludicrous. The very next day, thousands more will cross our borders wanting the same privileges, whether or not we make that declaration that day. What did the declaration do for America? Absolutely nothing; Just as former president Ronald Reagan's amnesty bill did for us. Accept to give us even more people that we are legally required to care for. People for the most part that didn't start paying into our systems like Social Security, workmen's compensation or Medicare till later in their lives if at all.
The money we have in Social Security, Medicare, Public Aid and Medicaid was paid for by legal citizens. If you use that money to give health care or food stamps to illegal aliens (or immigrants if you prefer), you are stealing money from legal American citizens.
If you want to increase the amount of immigrants we allow in -- then do so. If you want put these people on a 'special' listing giving them first choice access to citizenship once they go back where they came from, let's talk about it; but don't expect me to want to give them something for nothing, especially since they broke our laws to begin by waltzing right into our country without permission. That's no different than giving somebody that broke into my house free room and board.
Instead of giving Mexico money we should be asking for money
in return for supporting their citizens in our hospitals and public aid systems.
Hey, that's an idea. Each time an illegal alien walks into an ER in
a hospital, we take their name and report them to Mexico - demanding reimbursement
for any costs incurred same goes for any other public assistance they receive.
Health Care Reform = Amnesty For Illegals.
Prepare for the upcoming meltdown.
September 18, 2009 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your statement:
'To assume that we can pick a day out of the blue and declare all illegal aliens American citizens is ludicrous.'
Isn't that what you are doing, making an assumption that this is the proposed outcome?
Thanks.
September 18, 2009 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Coonsey - I believe you are conflating two separate issues - extending coverage to all, which we should do, and subsidizing coverage for illegal immigrants, which is a more complex consideration.
Recent changes in the proposed bills to explicitly exclude illegals from coverage are an abdication of basic moral obligations we have to all humans, irrespective of their legal status. Enforcement of immigration laws requires penalties, but a "get sick and die" penalty should not be among them, and in any case, enforcement is more effectively aimed at employers than at the illegals themselves.
Refusing to subsidize anyone who can't prove legal residence is more ambiguous, but it might make sense economically, even if not politically to offer some subsidization, since it would save our economy the costs of unreimbursed ER visits, which are more expensive than ordinary medical care that might have obviated a need for a last minute ER visit.
I also expect that if we hadn't embarked on the current campaign in which Democrats and Republicans are vying to claim the title of "most heartless", we could establish not only coverage for all (a moral imperative), but appropriate subsidization arrangements negotiated with Mexico. The latter would probably be glad to see us show a caring attitude, and would reciprocate with payments designed to compensate us for the extra costs. Obviously, those costs can't be estimated exactly, but precisely enough to serve as the basis for a win/win arrangements between the two countries.
September 18, 2009 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wonderful response. You really hit on all the important points.
September 19, 2009 12:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Justice At Nuremberg.. 268-269
We Americans must do the right thing and make sure illegals never get access to medical care.
But we will need funding to get rid of the bodies.
WHO IN THE HELL IS GOING TO PAY FOR THE BURIALS?
And what about underground doctors who help the helpless in violation of the law. we must make examples of these traitors.
We need to 'round them up' as soon as possible. Oh there will be citizens who have particular affinities and relationshps with these illegals.
But in order to help the American Reich, SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE RIGHT NOW.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JAXKIKehbc
September 18, 2009 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wonderful. Thank you.
September 19, 2009 12:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, illegals pay a lot of income and FICA taxes that support Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security even though they are ineligible for those benefits.
September 18, 2009 3:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
What percentage of illegals in residence here contribute, do you know?
Thanks.
September 18, 2009 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
NCSteve, I could kiss you on the mouth for making this point.
In the United States, you can only avoid paying taxes if you work for cash. If you don't work for cash, taxes are automatically deducted from your paycheck. Income taxes, social security, medicare, etc.
The key word in that sentence is "automatically", in case anybody missed it. Undocumented workers used forged social security cards and their employers automatically deduct from their wages.
Coonsey, you say that we can't just pick a day and naturalize 12 million people. Okay. So, you go ahead and pick a day when we can remove 12 million people from our consumer economy.
Documented, undocumented, it doesn't matter: Immigrants cost less than they contribute. They're an easy scapegoat when times get tough because they look and sound different. These are people, who came here because there were jobs to be had. We have created a huge group living in the shadows of our society. It's okay to dump on them. It's okay to discriminate against them. It's okay to take advantage of their lack of recourse.
"Illegal" immigrants aren't a problem. They are people who forego the same rights that citizens are afforded so that they can earn money. You know money, right? That crazy stuff you need if you want to buy food and clothes or maybe rent a house so your kids don't have to sleep on the street.
September 18, 2009 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yep...we employ them, mostly to do jobs we don't want to do for wages we aren't willing to settle for. We make it POSSIBLE for them to be here, then we want to throw them out in the street when they are sick and try our darndest to not have to educate their children, even when they were born here...What is wrong with us?
September 18, 2009 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is that rhetorical or should we start making a list?
September 18, 2009 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I think a list sounds good!
September 19, 2009 1:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Until labor is as free to move across borders as capital is, globalization will hurt the less mobile.
All my grandparents came here legally because there wasn no category of illegal at the time. Of course they spoke Swedish (and English, brokenly) but they were white, and protestant, and nobody made much of a fuss about them coming. I feel the same way about the issues regarding external migration as I feel about internal migration. Sections of this country are now advocating slow or now growth, and the loudest advocates are those who are recent migrants from other parts of the United States...I've got my little bit of Oregon heaven, so you can keep out.
Equalize pay, equalize standards of living, equalize rights of labor, equalize rights of women, equalize civil society, then feel free to keep out whom you will, I hope I can trust that I would not have been a Nativist when the Irish were the enemies, but my people weren't here during the days of No Irish Need Apply. But I sure am going to look past the label to the person now, and treat them in the same humane fashion which all humane peoples treat their brothers and sisters, regardless of creed, color, or national origin, or legal status based on exclusionary principles which would have kept my kin away.
September 18, 2009 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Coonsey - you sound like Joe Wilson. I'm so proud of you!!
September 18, 2009 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let them eat cake.
September 18, 2009 4:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Simply said: you are wrong. What is it that you do not understand? No current piece of proposed legislation provides for coverage of health care for any one undocumented individual, whether from Mexico, India, Poland, Russia,or Great Britain. But just like most Fox News followers, you have inferred that if it's not mentioned, it must mean that it is allowed. Patently false assumption. What I do see in your message is a bit of intolerance and preocupation with immigrants, of which should not be an issue in health reform. Of course, you would deny medical attention to specific individuals if they did not prove their native birth, right? So much for Christianity.
September 18, 2009 5:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aside from being morally reprehensible and a violation of basic human rights, it is also extremely stupid to deny health care to any residents, illegal or not.
What do you think will happen if Mr. Undocumented Worker has a flu and knows that he cannot go to a hospital to have it checked out? He will probably take a couple days off work, right?
Nah. He will go to work and spread that happy little virus around. Extrapolate from that.
September 18, 2009 5:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is this a correct statement? Under any of the proposed plans, illegal aliens would not be allowed to purchase insurance, participate in a public plan, receive a subsidy of any kind to obtain health ins ---- but ---- our current policy of underwriting treatment for anyone who shows up at a hospital sick will continue, so anyone who is sick/injured will be treated.
Couple of questions:
Currently is any effort made to determine whether the uninsured person showing up at the hospital is a legal resident or someone in our country illegally?
If they realize the person is an illegal alien (even if they don't specifically inquire), do they report them to INS (or whatever its new name is)?
If health care becomes mandatory and most people are covered, what assumption will or should be made about someone who shows up without insurance: would they inquire about status? Seems to me that you'd have to inquire at that point to know whether to levy the fine for not getting insurance, since I'm confident that "getting insurance" would be part of the penalty and illegal aliens wouldn't be able to do that. So then hospitals, at least, would hve direct knowledge of someone's legal status - would they be expected to do anything?
If anyone knows -- thanks.
September 19, 2009 9:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hi Liz2 - I believe that your first paragraph is largely correct. Hospitals are required by law to provide emergency treatment to all comers. How they deal with non-emergency conditions is a matter of individual judgment.
I don't think hospitals currently inquire about the legal staus of patients.
Your last paragraph poses important questions. As I understand the most recent changes to the bills, designed to appease the anti-immigrant crowd, resident status would be checked at least in some cases, although I'm not sure all. For example, illegal immigrants currently covered by employer group insurance might not be questioned, but those who appear at the hospital without employer-based insurance or other insurance might be. The result will be to discourage hospital visits by illegal immigrants who are sick, until they are so seriously ill that they can no longer wait. In some cases, not even then.
September 19, 2009 11:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
God Bless America... :-(
September 19, 2009 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, Fred -- it is a tangled web, but no way to unravel it without facts. It seems like there is one overriding problem that, potentially, could put all the others in shadow: we do not want people, no matter what their status, *avoiding* medical care. Forget about the cost to them in their own lives (as that, obviously, is not an issue with some) -- but it's one quick way to turn an epidemic into a pandemic. Then we are all affected.
One last question, if anyone knows -- in single-payer countries is there any check of legal residency?
I know that legal visitors or temporary residents from abroad are treated with little or no fuss -- a friend of mine wound up having her baby in England (and, by the way, was overwhelmingly impressed with the care she received). But, of course, she was there legally.
I'm just wondering if there is any way to assure that sick people - legal or illegal - receive medical treatment.
September 19, 2009 7:44 PM | Reply | Permalink