How Does One Vote?
The now-famous Al Franken addresses his constituents video starts out with this question:
Are you going to vote the way the people want, the people who elected you, are you going to vote their voice, or are you going to vote how Obama wants you to vote?
And Franken's response:
I'm going to vote the way I want to vote. Now let me tell you how I decide to vote: I use my independent judgment and I just don't always go by polls.
We hear a lot these days about "the people want this according to national polls" and "Dems should line up together". We also hear about politicians voting merely to get re-elected which is sort of a take about voting how people want, but now the people are his local constituency.
Was wondering if people here at TPM would be siding up with Franken if they thought he were against the public option or single payer.
In an ideal world, how would you want your elected rep to vote in general? Are polls a good rational? Is party unity? Or should they politicians think more broadly?
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My honest answer: I love mavericks who vote the way they think is best no matter what the polls say, so long as they maverickly vote the way I want and the polls are against me.
When I'm with the polls, I love a seasoned politico who will vote whatever way the wind is blowing.
I admit it, I like people who do what I want and I get mad at them when they don't. It's probably a good thing to admit that.
More seriously: it is an age old question, isn't it? We elect these people for their judgment and the public's wants are never so clear that they can reliably follow the majority will anyway. Some people tell me the majority wants a public option and some people tell me that the majority doesn't. I'm convinced a public option makes sense and so first I look to politicians who agree with me that it makes sense. For those who don't, I want to know why. If they disagree with me based on the evidence I can give them something of a pass so long as I know they're thinking.
September 8, 2009 1:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's probably a good thing to admit that.
But maybe not. Polls are shifting on this issue. Who knows, if they go South, your neighbors may turn on you. Then again, you might get lucky, and your neighbors might turn you on.
If so, that's probably a good thing to admit, too.
September 8, 2009 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
quinn! I've missed ya, hope all's well. Nice rejoinder.
September 8, 2009 9:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your comment is awesome in it's honesty, Destor.
I'd prefer to hold by the notion that we elect reps to apply valued judgment and not the polls -- regardless of how I feel (but I feel better when their judgment agrees with mine!) Much of this derives from how people view our country. It's clear from history that the founders set us up as Constitutional Republic and not a Democracy and the Senate was set up to be particularly divorced from public opinion (while the House can be more influenced by it).
The other twist is one of party loyalty. Which should an elected rep be more loyal to: constituency or party? After all, the Blue Dogs represent some conservative parts of the country.
I suspect most feel like you do, Destor, (vote the way I feel!) but few would admit it. The trick is to rationalize an opinion you already hold. ;-)
September 8, 2009 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nate Silver over at fivethirtyeight has taken a look at the existing polls on public option and estimates that most of the Blue Dogs come from districts which support public option.
September 9, 2009 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nate Silver over at fivethirtyeight has taken a look at the existing polls on public option and estimates that most of the Blue Dogs come from districts which support public option.
September 9, 2009 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
We elect these people for their judgment and the public's wants are never so clear that they can reliably follow the majority will anyway.
Gotta disagree, destor. :-)
If representatives are true representatives, then they need to be voting the majority's interests, not their own damn judgment, which is apparently easily bought and sold, anyway. They don't need to know what the majority thinks for the whole nation, just their districts if in the House. If in the Senate, they need to guard against federal encroachment on legitimate states rights, if necessary. Where their judgment should come in is in making sure that when they are voting for the majority's interests, that the minority is protected, also. If proposed legislation has the result of unfairly impacting a minority, and even though it is supported by a majority, then I endorse them going all mavericky and stuff.
September 8, 2009 6:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
In much of this discussion people assume there is an absolute good for the nation. That may or may not be the case.
Indeed, the people can be swayed just as easy by irrelevant things as elected officials.
After all, at the time of the Iraq War, the majority of the country supported us getting into it. Which, in fact, is the reason why the Senators voted overwhelmingly for AUMF.
Or: the majority of the country have certain feelings about immigration and the poor which many here will disagree with. So they laud Kennedy. But that's not what the nation wants (and it's possibly not even in the nation's best financial interest, strictly speaking).
But we can go one step farther: When voting water rights, or interstate taxes, or any number of things where there is a conflict between the state and the national: how then to vote?
It seems to me that many on both sides of the spectrum reach for the methodologies that support their present position. When I hear of "legitimate" states' rights two things come to mind (a) this isn't a state's rights thing, it's about representing the people that elected you vs other concerns (be they national or party) and (b) "legitimate" implies that you will decide on an ad hoc basis based on one's own political preference (which is hardly a definition of "legitimate").
That's what was so great about Destor's comment: it was very specific but did get to the center of the issue -- and he didn't waffle.
September 8, 2009 6:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
After all, at the time of the Iraq War, the majority of the country supported us getting into it. Which, in fact, is the reason why the Senators voted overwhelmingly for AUMF.
The Republicans voted for it because their President was Cheer Leader-In-Chief and thus a large majority of their base was for the war. The Democrats supported it because they were afraid of looking like war wussies and weak on homeland defense. But you have to factor in the reasons why there was majority support for invading a country that had nothing to do with anything, and telling the truth was nowhere on the horizon from either party. So in this case, majority support was manufactured and fostered on a huge national scale, versus various other struggles like abortion and gay marriage which tend to better follow voting patterns.
I think.
September 8, 2009 11:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
God you are good Clearthinker. Good at being evil, that is. But kudos all the same. Spectacular!
Start out with an innocent question, drive people to admit the moral equivalence of left and right by conceding that they vote according to mere personal preference rather than according to reflections on objective value of policies, and then conclude that the aggregate maximized desire satisfaction lies in your prefered moderate middle-ground.
Gosh, is my desire for a regulatory framework that leads to more equal distribution of income derived from an antecedent conception of justice? Or is it just a rationalization of spite and envy. Yeeees, let that self-doubt creep in.
Is my anger at Bill O'Reilly, because he is spewing hate at Obama for being black and in power, neither more nor less justified than his emotion? Well, golly, they're both just antagonistic subjective feelings, aren't they? Gosh maybe I should become more moderate.
Yes, let's keep that looking glass firmly placed in front of those lefties, all too willing to ascertain whether they are being fair and reasonable and giving due reverence to the truth. Because they CARE whether they're getting things right, whether some policy is good for people or not. And as long as they are focused on that mirror, checking themselves, wondering whether their points are no more anchored in notions of good and truth than those of the opposite side, they're not focused on the fleecing, the injustice, the suffering out there in the world. And not doing anything about it.
God forbid we have first-order debates about what is good or bad policy. Let's force the liberals to have a debate about whether their motives are pure. Because how are they ever ever going to be able to prove that, eh?
Sure, most people can't see that this is what you're doing, but those of us who can, well
We salute you!
You are great at what you do. I mean that sincerely, and with awe. Though I wish you would stop. Because it's wrong.
September 9, 2009 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
The puppy loves the pug, a lot. Thanks for saying the truth so rationally and calmly.
Hearts in a pmail for you!
September 9, 2009 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just hoping he reads it. And that he cares. Don't know what else is to be done...
September 9, 2009 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
He doesn't care. He loves his game. He will play it and play it and play it. He never stops.
September 9, 2009 5:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very smart as always, seashell. Protecting minority rights is so much more vital than we tend to realize.
September 8, 2009 9:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not sure I get the difficulty. Elected representatives should vote according to what promotes the public good. Difficulties arise only insofar as one believes that there is no such thing as the public good, but only subjective preferences and individual interests.
September 8, 2009 2:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not exactly. Public on what scale? Public good for your town? state? nation?
As Franken points out, MN already is treated unfairly under Medicare and he wants to rectify that.
The Blue Dogs got a lot of money into their states from the Fed under the current system. Should they vote for their state -- or make it fair for all Americans? After all, they do represent their state. Those are the people who put them into office.
There are many levels between the individual and the nation.
September 8, 2009 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
So the question - for a Senator, say - is how to balance his constituents' interests with national interests?
Again, I'd opt for the pretty straightforward objective standard that pertains: the 'justice' or 'fairness' criterion you allude to in Franken's case. So Senators should militate to repair any injustices that are being inflicted on their state as compared to others, and should seek fair treatment.
Should they fight to defend their state's interests to the detriment of the rest of the nation? No.
Something similar goes for reps and their districts.
September 8, 2009 3:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are of course speaking of an 'ideal' world where corporations have not bought and paid for representatives and given them all sorts of perks and promises... so, yes in an 'ideal' world, I would expect my representives to consider the perspectives and needs of their constituents, the district, state, etc. and the best interests of their party, the country, the environment, the world.. all of it and make their best judgment.
Reality appears to be very different however.
September 8, 2009 6:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Since we live in reality -- what say you?
September 8, 2009 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well I answered based on ideal because that is what you asked.
Based on reality. I don't know what to do. I have more faith in my representative in the house because it is by nature more representative. It is more likely that he will make decisions that do not often fall far from the majority of his constituents, local business concerns, environmental concerns etc. But that is only to the extent that he is not corrupted by corporate and other interests.
The senate is clearly a less representative body and seems to present a lot of the problems in serving the good of the people. They are more likely to be corrupted for there are fewer of them to buy off. They have less accountability because they represent so many more people in general than those in the house. This makes it easier to take whatever position they want to.
The last vote of a CO senator I was proud of was Senator Hank Brown, a republican for voting against GATT. He was a republican senator. For the most part I have not felt well represented ever by a senator in my state. And I question whether the senate should exist the way it does?
September 8, 2009 7:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, I meant in terms of reality initially, sorry that wasn't clear. As you know mentioned yourself: that it where we live.
Your point about the Senate is intriguing. You talk about being "bought off", but the founders were very much worried about the rabble being "bought off" -- imagine a nation full of people voting from what they see on ... FNC, as elegantly explained here.
In fact, the Senate was deliberatly set up to be more immune from the public whims for this very reason as we both know. But that doesn't mean it's isolated. First, the House can be pushing on the Senate to action (as they are more representative given they have to run every 2 years), and notice we've seen that. The House Dems are more aggressive. I'm guessing that's because that's a much better of what their constituency wants than any poll. Indeed, getting reelected is a very strong motivating force!
Secondly, you do have, every 6 years a chance to make your ideas known to your Senators (and don't forget the primaries). This means not automatically re-electing incumbents or, better still, working now with your state parties to set up primary challenges. (This, of course, is a common theme to some of us posting here at TPM -- Jason being preeminent in this regards.)
I think it's interesting to note that the House and the Senate are reacting differently to this issue -- just how the framers would have anticipated. And, as you know, it's not just the time between elections, the traditions between both bodies differ substantially for similar reasons.
September 8, 2009 8:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
So I guess the real question is, How much does a good senator cost? I mean, I'm saving up to buy myself something nice, I feel like there's a good return on investment if you buy a senator who'll do what you want him/her to do. And I don't want some lame junior senator, either. I want a solid, upstanding committee or sub-committee chair. How much do you think he/she'd go for?
Certainly paying with my vote isn't enough to be listened to.
September 9, 2009 9:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
I line up with Franken, who lined up with Edmund Burke, the English Parliamentarian who lined up with the American side in the American Revolution.
http://www.econlib.org/library/LFBooks/Burke/brkSWv4c1.html
That said, I vote for the candidate whose judgment I trust and whose way of coming to judgment is closest to mine.
September 8, 2009 8:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting about the second part of this... That's a pretty high bar to include process as well!
September 8, 2009 8:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think of judgment as a process as much as the outcome of the process. So if I don't know how a person reasons--if the person doesn't show that, I can't have too much faith in the conclusion drawn.
September 8, 2009 10:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sometimes I just settle for the "right" conclusions (e.g. they get to the same place as me.) ;-)
September 8, 2009 10:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Clearly, this is more important to me when the conclusion isn't mine. If there's no disagreement there's little reason for me to do a lot of heavy lifting thinking. And this is kind of Burke's point. But when a person comes to a different conclusion than I do the only way I can check the validity of my conclusion (after all, I have been wrong, once in 1977 and once in 2001) is to run my thinking against his. IF he doesn't show me it, then I can't.
p.s. I've been wrong more often than that. :-)
September 9, 2009 7:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ah hah ... aMike . . .
As Burke said "Government and Legislation are matters of reason and judgement, and not of inclination; and, what sort of reason is that, in which the determination precedes the discussion..."
Deliberation is not who shouts the loudest. Our system operates, or at least is designed to operate as a discursive democracy of discourse marked by analytical reasoning with the hoped for outcome being that of sound policy.
But on second thought, maybe that isn't too clear...
Maybe this is... If he walks and talks like a snake oil salesmen, he is...
Max Baucus... and/or Tom Coburn sort of come to mind.
~OGD~
September 9, 2009 7:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Burke would probably argue that Baucus and Coburn belong to the Representative as Parrotschool of thought...They sit on their Masater's shoulders and say "polly wont no public option" until they get the cracker handing just out of reach. I could be persuaded to modify that opinion, or even apologize for it if eiather of them clearly presented the logic chain, presuppositions upon which it was based, and evidence to support both the logic chain and the presuppositions.
September 9, 2009 9:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is a side issue. Public opinion doesn't exist in a vacuum. Its a complex relationship between the public, political leaders statements, the media pundits, and media coverage. When the house bill was passed the average republican voter didn't rise up in mass to fight against it. The republican leaders both in office and in the media convinced the voters to fight it, with mostly lies.
But whether its lies or the truth public opinion is molded. Good leaders have the capability to get their message out, explain why a piece of legislation is good and why the public should support it. Most people don't have the time or the prerequisite knowledge to grasp the complexities of most legislation.
Democrats too often seem to fail at communicating their message to the public mostly, imo, because too many of them have no god damn spine and are unwilling to fight. The first fight they should be having is how the media covers the lies and distortions from the right. Its hard to get your message out when the MSM treats lies like death panels with respect.
September 8, 2009 9:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure what the "this" in "this is a side issue" refers to. However, I certainly agree it's dangerous to "lead" via polling. It's better to lead by leading.
I tend not to blame the MSM because for the most part they want to get a story out there.
There is no reason why the White House couldn't have released something like this at the end of July. That would have framed the debate quite nicely. The battle cry would have been: give us choice! Any teabaggers would have been cast negative: "you don't want to have choice? UnAmerican!"
Of course, this begs the issue of which constituents to focus representing: the one that vote for you directly or the nation as a whole. While the healthcare debate links the two pretty much together, there are other instances where these two choices are in opposition to one another.
September 8, 2009 10:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well...
The administration could have taken the "public option" explained it as Reich does, wrapped it in the ol' red-white-and-blue, set it on top of a warm apple pie, placed it in the hands of a Marine Corps General and announced that Jesus the Christ himself is onboard and the teabagger crowd would still have gone about their business AS PLANNED and the media would still highlight the crazies and count the sponsorship income from covering the bloodbath.
Just saying... Ya' know...
~OGD~
September 9, 2009 8:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
The question that was given Franken didn't really give Senator Franken much of, if any, personal voice. It probably was natural for Franken to remind the questioner and the people listening that he has his own opinions. Even so, I'd bet that Franken's "independent judgment" does take his constituency into account.
And to finally answer your question, I'm going to give you the wishy washy one: It depends. Like Destor says above, I'd like the representative to vote the way I want them too. But I also know that I don't know everything and often say things (or type them on TPM) that represent me not knowing the whole story or missing something or me having a flat out misconception. Even when I've researched something extensively or know a lot about a subject, I have to keep in mind that no one can know everything--but my hope is that when my representative votes, they have a basis in fact as why they voted that way.
So, I guess that I feel that there has to be a bit of trust in the representative in the equation as well. That the outcome will improve the lives of the constituency in some way. Problem is that trust can get us in trouble like trusting that financial gurus' credit default swaps are safe. In an ideal world I'd know the issue in-and-out, as would my representative, and we'd come to the same conclusion.
Lastly, I have to admit something as well. When I don't know an issue or the ramifications of a bill extensively, it's easy to go with the flow and listen to others opinions' and let that shape my wish. One thing about TPM, for instance, is that it has many voices, some who are quite versed in one subject or another, who more-or-less are on the same page. Just as a representative has advisers, I often feel that fellow TPMers fill in the same role for us. Problem is, that what often feels like the majority here isn't the same as it is in my state or district!
September 9, 2009 2:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
One of the many problems matyra, is that they aren't giving us much to trust these days. Or maybe they never did and I'm just waking up to that fact.
I admit I'm not a very good judge of people's character. I tend to see the best in them, and sometimes the good I see just never makes it to the surface.
Off point: I saw an interesting interview on Hardball last night regarding health care and Obama's speech tonight. In it, someone said this will be an interesting test of Obama's leadership, or whether the dems are willing to be led. I wonder, as a group, if we are.
September 9, 2009 10:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
We Dems are certainly quite a disparate group. I'm not sure if we are willing to consolidate around anything sometimes. It's that lack of authoritarianism and willing to follow that is one of our weaknesses in a way. (Though I'm glad that we don't just line up like the Republicans often do. Listening to a lot of voices, gives us more ideas to choose from. But that's a weakness too!)
September 9, 2009 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Me likes tricky questions !!!
So we have a Senator who's hedging for the definite maybe on the issue. It really boils down to a personal trust you have with him. If you voted for him, then you have a sincere trust in his judgment and high value and regard for how he uses the power you gave him.
On the otherhand, those of us on the out side have a relationship with the Senator. The relationship is a part of a greater whole. For that greater whole to succeed, the relationship is a dependence on the Senator to follow the leads of those members that also represent the greater whole. But the greater whole is not always in unison with each other - factions exist and sometimes break away.
So it really boils down to where in the greater whole the Senator resides. Nothing Senator Franken has said so far would indicate he favors or disfavors any option at the moment. He's a complete enigma on the health care issue. He's playing a very intense game of no-peek poker and seems to be intent on having a winning hand, but we don't know what cards he's holding and that exactly how he wants it.
September 9, 2009 1:22 PM | Reply | Permalink