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"You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet!"


World War II veterans returned with "Shell Shock" and sat in the darkness of bars across the nation because back then "real men" didn't cry or whine about their horrific experiences.  "Real men" were TOUGH like George Patton.  "Real men" slapped the "cowards" who had difficulty dealing with all the blood, guts and FEAR.

Vietnam veterans returned with a psychological disorder which came to be known as PTSD.  We sat in the darkness of bars and others of us fell into the easy escape of drugs to escape the horror of nightmares, flashbacks and FEAR.  We used these "easy" escapes because John Wayne and all the other WWII "heroes" would be ashamed if they knew what we were feeling.

Those returning from the current conflicts have exponentially greater stress disorder.  As I have blogged before, Iraq veterans have legitimate reasons to have the highest percentage of PTSD of any American veterans in all our wars.  Even ignoring the political implications of our country's leadership overturning many of the "rules" of war which have kept America as a shining beacon of moral behavior for over 200 years, these vets have other factors which far outweigh the immoral acts of their Commander in Chief.

Reservists and National Guardsmen sent into battle with less training than their "regular" counterparts, multiple tours into an environment of CONSTANT danger and fear, a larger percentage of the force with families forced to face the realities of trying to survive without Dad or Mom around for years are all factors which happened far less frequently with Vietnam veterans.

What is the military's answer to all these troubled individuals returning with psychological trauma never before experienced in such large percentages?  They are increasing the numbers of counselors and psychiatric staff in the VA facilities and on military bases:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081129/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/soldier_stress

During my ongoing research for the book on PTSD which is nearly finished, I have written here many times about the "cave" where I've lived for the past 40 years.  The "cave" where so many Vietnam veterans have hidden in the darkness and relative peace of denial which allowed so many of us to "function" in society for all these years.  "We" built a wall between us and reality which protects our loved ones from knowing what's really inside.  But in our perverted "haven" which was put in place to protect our loved ones from the reality in our memories we actually caused the reverse to become "their" reality.

Drinking, drug use, physical and psychological abuse of those we love became "their" reality. Without knowing the root cause many marriages and families were destroyed.  Our ranks are thinning now.  Most of us are in our 50's, 60's and 70's now.  It won't be long until the news organizations portray the few remaining veterans of Vietnam as a "dying" breed like they do now with WWII and Korean vets.

It is despicable that such a large number of people will die without ever coming to grips with what might have been.  Help wasn't there for so many.  Suicide was the only way out for so many.  Loneliness, despair, depression and shame have been the predominant emotions for so many. 

Things might have been better for returning Vietnam veterans if there had been psychological counseling available.  Education about PTSD during basic training SHOULD be a part of ANY volunteer military organization.  Remove the "shame" and so many more would seek competent counseling when symptoms surface during and after service.

It took me nearly 40 years to finally seek help.  And the help that's available to veterans even today is pathetically inadequate.  Vet centers are popping up across the country but if my experiences are any indication, they are staffed with poorly trained people who provide an ear and not much more.  I have found my sessions with the two I have visited to be equivilant to sitting in my cave and talking to the stone walls.

I hope Iraq and Afghanistan veterans have more competent and adequate counseling available.  I hope the leadership in Washington puts in place firewalls to stop what I fear is coming.  I hope competent counseling is made available for families of returning vets.  I hope veterans become the priority they should have always been.  If not, we are destined to see violence, suicide and depression on a scale never before experienced by our country.

Write your representatives in Congress.  Offer help to these veterans when you see them.  The "shame" of having PTSD MUST be removed.  It IS real! 

Watch out America...  "You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet!"  

41 Comments

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these vets have other factors which far outweigh the immoral acts of their Commander in Chief.

They have a lot to answer for.


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Chuck, it's good to see you here again. Glad to hear the book is almost done. I'm hearing DOD and VA talk the talk about PTSD and TBI but it's not clear yet whether they are walking the walk. All these years have gone by with insufficient research on PTSD and how best to treat it. And now we have TBI. Let's hope we don't have the same lack of response. Thanks for your service and the effort you are making writing about it.

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Writing the PTSD book and these blogs has been difficult but it has also probably done more to kill some of the monsters in my mind than anything else I could have done. I wish there could be change in our government but my experience makes me skeptical.

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Great post. Are you familiar with the research of James Pennebaker at UT Austin? It demonstrates the power of writing for recovery from trauma. Sounds like you've figured that out.

Take care of yourself.

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I wasn't aware of his research but I think writing about PTSD has helped me in some ways. On the other hand, it isn't easy sometimes.

Thanks for taking the time to read and comment.

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But for the idea that this current war is any more heinous than our other military adventures throughout our history or our national guard and reservists are less prepared than the draftees of the Vietnam era, this is an important post and an important issue.

We have yet to really treat the long-term costs to our military and their families. We routinely break every promise ever made and leave these brave men and women to their demons. Despite what appears to be an increase in awareness for Iraq and Afghanistan veterans, it is the average American voter who needs to step up and make sure Congress does the right thing.

We have let our stated morals and our actions as a nation run counter to each other for much too long.

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Well said.

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But for the idea that this current war is any more heinous than our other military adventures throughout our history or our national guard and reservists are less prepared than the draftees of the Vietnam era, this is an important post and an important issue.

What is your quibble with that "idea." I agree with Chuck.

Even ignoring the political implications of our country's leadership overturning many of the "rules" of war which have kept America as a shining beacon of moral behavior for over 200 years, these vets have other factors which far outweigh the immoral acts of their Commander in Chief.

Reservists and National Guardsmen sent into battle with less training than their "regular" counterparts, multiple tours into an environment of CONSTANT danger and fear, a larger percentage of the force with families forced to face the realities of trying to survive without Dad or Mom around for years are all factors which happened far less frequently with Vietnam veterans.

I have read reports that bolster Chuck's assertions here. Have you seen reports which contradict this?

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Our immoral acts are certainly better publicized during this war, but I would hazard a guess that the Plains Indians and Filipinos would be happy to give testimony to America's historical brutality.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki citizens probably have some tales to tell as well. We killed in excess of a million non-combatants during the Vietnam war and created millions of veterans through a class-based draft that was no less damaging than the stop-loss policies of today. That doesn't even take into account all the stuff done under the radar during the Cold War. Even a democratic president burned men, women and children alive on US soil within months of taking office.

This entire country's hands are stained with the blood of the innocents we failed to protect at the ballot box. I am sorry to say that our two current wars are par for the course when America has deployed its military throughout history.

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I'm unsure whether to thank or curse you for this, but your mentioning of the Philippines caused me to do a bit of searching within Google Books, and then read in its entirety:

Blount, James H. Jr. 1912. The American occupation of the Philippines, 1898-1912. New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons. - Google Books

You may not be happy with the author though. He was son of a confederate officer who was a nine term Georgia Congressman, and was born into the reconstruction. He was a real racist towards American blacks, yet at the same time remarkably non-racist about Philippine nationals.

One excerpt greatly amuses me though, related to Simeon Ola, who is presently recognised as a great guerrilla general by historians. Blount was the appointed judge who presided over the cases arising from the Albay insurrection led by Simeon Ola. From page 435 of his book:

Ola was the star witness for the state. He held back nothing that would aid the prosecuting attorney to convict the men who had followed him for a year. He was given a sentence of thirty years (by Judge Carson) , as a sort of expression of opinion of the most Christian attitude possible concerning his real deserts, but his services as state's evidence entitled him to immunity, and for that very good and sufficient reason Judge Carson, Prosecuting Attorney Ross, and myself so recommended to the Governor.

Ola only regretted that he had but hundreds of lives to give up in exchange for his own precious neck. He rolled states evidence on his own men, and received a full pardon for doing so. Viva la revolution, and damn the facts.

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That's why I have found myself more in favor of evolution than revolution. It may take a little longer, but it can be a little more rational.

Very interesting quote.

I have only a passing familiarity with the era, but I have always been surprised when I find out about some of our more darker passages. Not sure why I find them surprising, given the whole of human history, but I suppose it was being raised in the United States if Amnesia.

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It's difficult for me to actually recommend this book. At the same time, some very apt comparisons an be made between it and the GWOT. Blount presented a pretty good argument that it wasn't the military that should bear the brunt of the blame for what was done in the Philippines, and that the blame should be laid at the feet of the President(s) (McKinley, T. Roosevelt, and to a lesser degree Taft) who attempted to push their "Benevolent Assimilation" theory, and made decision based entirely upon the election cycles in the US. Blount, without excusing the military, felt that the suffering inflicted upon the Philippines would have been greatly decreased under complete military control. He also stated that it was insulted the Philippine people asserting they were unable to provide for their own self-government.

He cannot simply be dismissed as a Confederate Democrat either, as many of the officers he speaks respectfully of had been young Yankee officers in The civil War, and at one point speaks positively about the Military retaking control of the Georgia State civil government, because they were incapable of restoring order. He certainly did not believe Jesse James was anything more than a murderous thief. Blount did get a few hard digs in though regarding Andersonville, and Lincoln's General Orders No. 100.

I firmly believe that if the Bush Administration had not meddled with the Geneva Conventions, and left the Military to properly deal with those captured on the battlefield, much of the detainee mistreatment would never have happened. There is a proper lawful method for taking Geneva conventions Protections away from enemy combatants, never followed. The Judge Advocate General Corps would have taken the charge honourably, and seen that what justice was possible was given even to our enemies.

I need to release contemplation of this presently. It leads to places I do not feel up to traversing at this time.

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Totally agree with your last statement. Having been active duty for ten year, I can confirm that most military members tend toward a moral and ethical outlook on most things. (The possible exception being partying too hardy and/or casual sexual relations while on deployment.)

I actually think it is even more simple. Had they actually followed all the war plans developed since the first Gulf War, we would have been in and out with a minimum of needed occupation. Disbanding the Iraqi Army alone ensured this would be a war of indeterminate length.

I really think that was their main goal - a war without end to replace the Cold War - more than contravention of existing standards for some ideological reasons. The latter seems to have been more of a tactic to accomplish the former.

Glad to have a grown-up in charge again.

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Sorry, somehow I answered a question you didn't ask.

My main point is that we have long sent untrained men (and more recently women) the far corners of the world to brutally impose American will on the world. Our current crop of brave men and women performing that "duty" is no different from their earlier compatriots.

The reason I bring it up is that I think making this current crop of assholes in office any more culpable for America's long history of colonial misadventures will keep us from solving the mind-set that sets us on this course in the first place. It becomes a matter of recrimination, which always prompts an equal and opposite reaction from those being blamed, in this case mainstream republicans who are in the process of processing their own culpability in our nation's current state of affairs.

I am more interested in making sure this country fixes the military mind-set it has had ever since Alexander Hamilton convinced President John Adams to create a standing army, in direct contravention of the Constitution that both men signed. Setting up a political sparing match over who is to blame for yesterday's mistakes will ensure we never solve tomorrow's challenges.

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Apology not necessary, I was glad to read both responses.

I think your points are fair. I disagree, however. I tend to think that a line needs to be drawn, and an example needs to be made to discourage future abuses of power, mostly.

I can't quite see why it would prevent us from moving forward. IMO, it is a necessary first step in which to do so.

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Agreed, though I think tone and process will be vitally important. The manner by which we decide guilt and innocence in an political environment that has eschewed accountability for decades will be a tricky balancing act if the idea is to heal a nation.

No one wants to be the first in line to burn in effigy for the crimes of multiple generations.

We should draw a line in the sand and hold Obama accountable in ways we have never held our president accountable. Likewise, we should make Congress do our bidding and start turning out in great numbers for every election, most especially the primary elections.

I want to be part of an American renaissance that allows for our entire history as we design a more sustainable tomorrow.

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You are conflating issues, and grayscaling history. The acceptable standards of waging lawful war, has greatly evolved in the last 1 1/2 centuries. International Standards for modern war began to be codified in the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, subsequently expanded and amended in the various Geneva Protocols.

he Indian wars were extremely brutal. War completely within one state has a tendency to be barbaric. Still, many of the worst atrocities of the Indian Wars can be traced to acts perpetrated by local raised armed forces, and not the US Military.

The Philippine Occupation and destruction of its insurrection which and been fomented out a desire for self-government, was is an ugly part of America's history, but it did not even begin to rise to the level of the evil that has been done in the GWOT. The difference is that few field officers serving during the Philippine War allowed rampant and overt atrocities to be committed by those within their command. War can easily bring out the worst in a human, but most soldiers still cling to0 their humanity, even if this is just a fantasy. The military's chain of command was has been seriously screwed. Far too few of the military's officer corps, and even fewer of it enlisted personnel possess the temerity to stand up in the face of human abuses, to tell those who are their comrades that is serves nothing but the darkness to continue down their present trajectory when they become filled with vengeance. Our leaders have surrendered the field of honour, and openly rationalise the torture of humans detained as combatants. They formulated policies which encouraged acts of inhumanity to be perpetrated by front-line troops.

When the battle ends, it is the duty of the commanding officers to assure that any prisoners are quickly secured in a place not accessible to the soldiers who they battled against, and then provide transport to the rear ASAP. Instead, the Afghan and Iraq prisoners of battle have often been placed within the very compounds of the soldiers whose buds had been killed through their complicity. If the civilian heads of our military will not walk the high ground, at least publicly, then they need be held accountable for violations of The Geneva Conventions.

There is another factor which is likely to enhance the incidence of PTSD amongst our current military personnel. This War Upon Iraq was fought under thinly veiled deceitful predicates, which have been proven to be lies that took them away from the good fight and quick end to this war up at Tora Bora in December, 2001. Experiencing war is bad enough at any level. To live with your service as a brutal lie enhances this. To have tossed you personal honour into the burning flames of moral relativism, naught but dupes to the whimseys of scum that conned America into a war based upon election politics, and by persons who serve two flags is an even greater future burden to bear. Being cycled repeatedly into the breach in scheduling designed to circumvent the lack of will amongst the citiznery to take up arms in a conflict they claim is just can in the end, only breed contempt and animosity.

There is however, an easy fix for the last problem, although not politically expedient. Military Recruiters should be trained how to masterfully exploit guilt, and then aggressively sent into the vast untapped resources of Grade A Military Prime Monkey Boy Fodder existent within campus chapters of the College Republicans.

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There is no sense in comparing relative levels of brutality as it changes for each generation, but the specifics of America having soaked her arms to the elbows in the blood of innocents worldwide is hardly something that is debatable for even a causal student of history. There is no way the GWOT is worse than our Cold War depredations, That is recent history. There is no "gray scaling" those operations or the consequences of those actions, many of which led directly to the challenges we face today.

This country has been breaking treaties and waging war under the cover of darkness against whomever we thought deserved it for our entire history. We even targeted those who we knew didn't deserve it, but were in the way of our imperial ambitions. We have been committing crimes against Geneva Conventions since before the ink was dry on the signatures. Much of what we know about through new communications channels has been codified and legitimized through two centuries of precedent.

To think otherwise is to have a dangerously naive view of history that explains why many on the left are so intent on a witch hunt now, rather than simply setting a new standard of transparency and accountability starting with Obama. Once the Inquisition starts, nothing else will get done. The last forty years should be ample proof of that.

Do you want to make sure America pursues a new direction by convincing the 46% of the country who voted for McCain or do you want heads on a pike?

History shows we can't have both.

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Chuck, my blog just up is a companion piece to yours, not because it's on PTSD - but because it addresses how people can fall through the cracks in our society and how we need a Public Health system that prevents that - not just for vets, but for anyone:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/therap/2008/11/obama-transition-asks-what-con.php

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Thanks, TheraP. You've always been supportive and great. Thank you!

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How well I recall you running around handing out 5's!

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Hello, Chuck! Good post! I'm back!

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Everybody comes back. Good to see you, tlees2!

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Great to see you again, T!

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Another thing we haven't seen yet is when this generation of Iraqi vets get involved with politics.

Unlike the Vietnam generation, pinning labels and partisan objectives to their shirts will not bracket the message. You are a big part of why.

Thank you.

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You're right. I hope we do see some of them in politics.

And thanks for the kind words.

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I think this PTSD stuff is pure baloney, expect soldiers to "buck up", they are going to war and one sees dead bodies and maimed people in those, I'm sure its in the job description.

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And you are just back from....where?

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It's never been in anything like a war, I'm sure.

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Chuck:
Do you know yet when, and where, we will be able to buy your book? I'm really interested in reading it.

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Drop me a note at: chuck at rotrmagazine dot com and I'll let you know when I get a publication date.

Thanks for taking the time to read and comment and for the kind words.

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Thanks, Chuck. Address noted.

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PTSD is a "condition" with no specific symptoms, its whatever the purported victim says it is, there are no visible injuries, its something treated by psychologists and having to do with how it makes those affected "feel". Ostensibly everyone who saw action suffers from PTSD, the ones who don't admit symptoms are simply in denial.

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No not every war veteran is affected by PTSD, but any who does not at least feel an occasional twinge deep within, is a sociopath. It is unnatural for one individual of a species to hunt another with homicidal intent. This is a hard-wired biological behavior shared minimally within all who are part of the Class: Mammalia. Anyone who can walk into the darkness everalways falling of war, experiencing its cornucopia of death, comprehend that this fate is far too often dispensed randomly with great injustice, and then emerge from it without having their psyches deeply transformed for the rest of their lives has lost their humanity as well as their honour, upon the field of battle.

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Reinforcing your point, PCA, there's an excellent book by a military psychologist called, On Killing, and research has documented that after prolonged, intense combat of just a few months, 93% or so of soldiers "break down" due to that combat stress. The other 7% are sociopaths.

Military training tries to break down the taboo against killing. The closer you are to the victim you're fighting, the harder it is psychologically (to inflict death on anyone). I'd guess, as Chuck points out, that the reserve troops, suffering the greatest PTSD, are the ones whose taboos are functioning best - because they're not in full-time military training, but spend more time as civilians - thus counteracting the military's effort to undo the taboo.

But no matter, all sane people who possess empathy (the lack of which = sociopathy) will "feel" for the enemy. Fellow feeling is so powerful. Even in war zones troops from opposite sides have been known to "care" about each others' common humanity.

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The ebb and flow of American politics is a ridiculous assemblage of ideology that has us working at cross purposes every few years. It's an absolutely assinine scheme. It produces little of value and harms many. War is merely the top tier example of schizophrenic descendancy into failure.

Veterans who are caught in the trap of patriotism only to realize the extent to which they have been deceived is merely a symptom of what ails the U.S. Those of us who serve or have served have been subjected to an amplified version of the lies served up to the public.

The underlying notion of ideologic superiority leads us astray time and again. We continue to select leaders who have little or no idea of the world beyond a small and woefully limited piece. And with every attempt to exercise control on this basis we are greeted with failure.

Obama is the first president ever who by virtue of his life experience actually has some firsthand understanding of this. Whether he can lead us out of our ideological dungeon is an open question. I think he may at least be able to show us the door and perhaps even open it a crack. More than that is too much to ask of one human being. It's a start.

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So PTSD is caused by the military pursuit of immoral aims? Right away we have a problem because not everyone will agree all military pursuits are immoral. Should we figure military service entails PTSD if the victim thinks his or her service involved immoral pursuits?

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Where a persons individual military experience leads to that perspective there is a likelihood that what has become known as PTSD will be the result. This is different for everyone who serves. We are who we are. We're an amalgam of our lifes experiences. Each of us assimilates our experiences differently. It's a total crap shoot. However harsh it may sound, the absolute rule of the constancy of indifference to life, living or dying, in the moment is always with us.

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PTSD isn't limited to those who have served in the military and seen combat. It manifests itself after shocks to the psychological system of those who experience severe and unexpected trauma. Many civilians develop symptoms after traumatic events. I'm certain it has existed since man first walked around with clubs.

Your thesis that vets should "buck up" is indicative of a George Patton mentality that was as ludicrous then as it is now. He was forced to apologize to his troops by the President of the United States because of his actions.

Then again, they say ignorance is bliss. Any truth to that?

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Anyone who endures events which are far outside the range of normal behavior or experience - and who also lack assistance in debriefing or handling the related emotions, are vulnerable to PTSD. Victims of incest. Victims of terrorism or war. Torture victims or anyone subjected to the equivalent of torture, including long term solitary confinement etc.

Let those who believe "buck up" is the answer please volunteer to take someone's place in Guantanamo. Or pick your war zone. Your famine and killing zone. Or volunteer to relieve the suffering of those who are stuck in those situations.

To work with those suffering PTSD is to walk into the Heart of Darkness - right along with them. It is to confront evil. To sit with Job - speechless in the face of torment.

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This is a thread of such importance.

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