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Stop being mock-offended by Joe Wilson


Condemning Joe Wilson is the worst kind of opportunistic nonsense.

It's holier-than-thou.  It's petty.  It's sure as hell unnecessary.  But most of all, it's dishonest and unworthy of who we should be.

Are we really offended?  Outraged?  Seriously, is your sense of decorum injured by this?  Is this "just not done" in polite society?  Egads, Ethel, that man just showed us his tallywacker in public after Labor Day!

Is it strategically sensible in the slightest way to protest so loudly over our honor, dignity, feelings, sensibilities, or whatever having been offended?  Are we that thin-skinned that we require a ritualistic apology so that we might make him lose face?  Assuming we are, do we want to appear that way?

He currently looks like an intemperate fool.  Can't we just let him continue on that course?  Couldn't we be magnanimous for a few seconds?  Must we act like vultures?  And by the way, do we have to do the only-slightly-oblique oh-of-course-after-all-he's-from-the-South references, as if that makes us worldly?

But, as I said, let's ignore all of that.  Let's look at the act itself.  Do we really believe it was wrong?  He disagreed with the person in power in that room and he just said so.  Can't we, a country which supposedly distrusts authority, have a little bit of healthy disrespect for it?  If we condemn his outburst merely because his opinion was contemptible and intellectually crappy, we are the dirtiest hypocrites for protesting due only to the convenience of an easy target.

What he did wasn't wrong.  It was a welcome change from the faux-adult "discourse".  Let's have some principles and stop making this bizarre claim that anyone might ever be required to respect anyone else simply because of a title or circumstance.

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I agree he should be left alone at this point for strategic reason you mention. I wholly disagree with idea that he did nothing out of the ordinary or plain wrong. He did. Let him be known for that, rather than a forced confession to what all have seen anyway.

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I just fail to understand why what he did was in any way wrong.

My argument is that we should view it as a good thing. Had a Congressman yelled "you lie" at Bush when he claimed we didn't torture, would that have also been "wrong"?

Presumably, the only difference here is that we think Wilson's beliefs are ridiculous.

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And Obama stating that federal funds for insurance will not go to pay for illegal immigrant's bills; and Bush stating that Sadam Hussain had WMS's and was an imminent threat to our country --- are equivolent --- how, exactly?

One was a lie and one wasn't - the fact that this doofus is "worried that it was true" doesn't make it so.

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They're clearly not equivalent. Obama's statement was certainly more forthright than Bush's.

But that's not even sort of the point. I'm saying that it's wrong to object to his having made this statement merely due to our disagreement with it. We're clearly not getting in a tizzy about the statement because of its content -- if we did, we'd be having an aneurysm every fifteen seconds in reaction to the much greater, less-well-intentioned, far more harmful and despicable lies that are coming out as a stream from many of those objecting to health reform.

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Bush is only lying if he knew for a fact that Saddam had no weapons.

But until you can prove that he lied, please stop saying that he did.

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He made the weapons inspectors -- who were able to go wherever they wished, and were finding NO WEAPONS OF ANY KIND -- leave the country SO THAT HE COULD START A WAR, supposedly over WMD's. Why make the people who were proving on a daily basis that Bush was wrong, LEAVE? Because he didn't want the truth to come out and lose his excuse for a war.

MCB, that is good enough for me. They kept changing the reasons for the war -- smoking gun = mushroom cloud; conflating Iraq with 911 (a complete and known lie); to finally: "he was just a big bad guy and the world is better off without him" -- that's what liars do.

Why don't you try proving that anything he said is the truth?

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It's not clear to me what you think he said that was a lie. He said that he thought Saddam had WMD's. Is that what you think was a lie? That Bush told us he thought Saddam had WMD's when he knew that they really didn't exist?

I'm curious to know how you are so certain about this.

Just because he suggested the UN inspectors leave hardly seems to be good proof. Maybe he wanted them to leave so they weren't caught up in the invasion.

Back in 2002 and 2003, many many people thought that Saddam posed a serious threat. If Bush lied about the threat, then I guess the rest of the country's leaders were also lying.

Were these people wrong about the WMD's? Maybe, but that doesn't mean they were all lying.

I'm OK with you having an opinion that he was lying, but to state as such a matter of fact that he was lying is just disappointing.

But hey, what do I know? As you said, I'm just somebody who hates Obama because he's black.

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I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that "many many people thought that Saddam posed a serious threat" -- sounds like an opinion as well.

Many people STATED that they believed there was a threat. Few backed it up with any credible argument that even THEY believed it. It was relatively insane at that point to think that Iraq posed a threat (at least WMD-style at the US), because most people without a dog in the fight admitted that the claimed suppliers (Al Qaeda, etc.) and Saddam Hussein found each other pretty contemptible.

So, yeah, it may be an opinion in that there's no proof of what was in Bush's heart at the time - but he was either a liar or much more of a fool than he otherwise seemed to be.

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The reason why I believe Bush didn't just "make it up" is because many mainstream news agencies were also saying the same thing. I don't think their sources were just the President.

Newsweek ran an article in 1999 headlined "Saddam + Bin Laden". In that same year ABC News was reporting that Saddam was thought to be building WMD's. If you turned on NPR you'd hear interviews from ex-CIA officials. Even John Kerry in 2002 said that the "threat was real".

I guess all these people were just making it up. Or we were a country of fools?

I think it's a stretch to say that Bush lied.

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Starting real wars with real killing of real American Citizens who have volunteered their final measure of commitment to their nation...

They didn't have solid, documented evidence. You say that Bush probably wasn't lying, because he was not certain that there were no WMDs.

In what alternate reality is it acceptable to sentence an arbitrary number of our dedicated military members to death on the battlefield on a FUCKING HUNCH!

So maybe Bush was not lying. What he was doing was ordinary criminal neglect, no different from an irresponsible dipshit getting plastered then driving home the wrong way on a local freeway. Except for the numbers of dead.

The people ostensibly led by president Bush were so excited by the possibility of getting back at the evil in Iraq, they didn't bother to verify whether it was a real threat.

So you may be right but not correct.

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We also had a hunch that people were going to fly planes in the World Trade Center buildings 8 years ago. And people are still crucifying members of the government for letting that happen and not acting on that "hunch".

So you see it's not a perfect world and we need to make decisions that are sometimes based on imperfect intelligence.

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Are you seriously trying to persuade this audience (or any audience with a double-digit IQ) of an equivalence between the waste of investigating threats and the waste of lives of our military members, the lives of Iraqi people, and a reputation for international aggression?

Who among us is so foolish, so idiotic as to fail to distinguish the investment of investigative effort from acts of international military aggression likely to result in the certain deaths of unknown numbers of our military members without even bothering to develop documentary evidence?

What happened to "you might want to check your parachute before jumping out of that airplane"?

This is why I am so offended by the failure to investigate prior to 9/11 and the discovery of no genuinely threatening WMD activity in Iraq: In both cases, the decisionmakers made decisions that strongly imply failure to account for the human costs of their acts.

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Much of what you write I agree with. What I take offense to is that people accuse Bush of lying.

But as far as "documentary evidence", I'm not exactly sure what you think we were going to get. Do you really think that Saddam was just going to give us the keys and locations of all the places we wanted to investigate? Of course not. We had intelligence which we had to make the best educated guess as to whether it was accurate or not.

It's not as simple as just "checking the parachute to see if it works". We didn't know all of the places to look and Saddam wasn't going to just spill the beans and tell us where the weapons were located. Your oversimplification is surprising to me.

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He made the inspectors leave so that they wouldn't be caught up in the invasion?

The invasion that was BECAUSE OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION that the weapons inspectors were proving DID NOT EXIST? Why invade? The inspectors were there and finding nothing.

Did you forget that the invasion was because they didn't want the smoking gun to be in the form of a mushroom cloud? If the inspectors had stayed, maybe he really couldn't justify an invasion because he would have been proved wrong. Couldn't have THAT! Kick out the inspectors and declare war! Yes. He was lying.

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You incorrectly assume that the inspectors were given open access and that Saddam would be cooperative.

I guess all these other people were lying too:

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.”—Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

“There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein’s regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed.”—Ted Kennedy, Sept 27, 2002

“We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.”—From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

“The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow.”—Bill Clinton in 1998

“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.”—Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

“I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons…I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out.”—Clinton’s Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.”—Al Gore, 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.”—John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

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"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." - Dick Cheney, speech to VFW National Convention, Aug. 26, 2002

"We know for a fact that there are weapons there". - Ari Fleischer, press briefing, Jan. 9, 2003

Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard, and VX nerve agent.... The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. - George W. Bush, State of the Union Address, Jan. 28, 2003

Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised. - George W. Bush, address to the U.S., March 17, 2003

We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat. - Donald Rumsfeld, ABC interview, March 30, 2003

No Bill, these are called lies. See he claimed he did KNOW. That is why we can say that he is a liar.

I know you leave in NY and I can understand why you would embrace the 1% doctrine. But he lied. Period.

So please stop claiming he didn't.

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How did he lie? Because he was making assumptions based on the intelligence we had?

I don't believe he knew for a fact that weapons did not exist.

Here's some other quotes for your collection:

“We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.”—From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

“The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow.”—Bill Clinton in 1998

“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.”—Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

“I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons…I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out.”—Clinton’s Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.”—Al Gore, 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.”—John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

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Nice quotes Bill. I particularly like the 1998 ones. Impeachment and slick willy was ordering attacks against Al Quida while the Republicans were all claiming it was a false enemy and this was a diversion.

As to the Hillary one and the 2002 I am not going to defend our idiot dems, but I would note that every quote you cite is qualified. They hedge their claims. As opposed to:

"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." - Dick Cheney, speech to VFW National Convention, Aug. 26, 2002

"We know for a fact that there are weapons there". - Ari Fleischer, press briefing, Jan. 9, 2003

etc.

See those are unqualified, no hedges like the squirrelly dems. And they had the intel. These are just Outright lies.

The difference matters.

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I don't see how all of those others are "qualified". I don't see how Kennedy or Kerry's quotes are qualified. Kerry also said things like "We need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War.”—John Kerry, Jan 23, 2003".

That one sounds pretty certaiin to me, just like many of the others I provided.

But I am digressing because I don't really your distinction of "qualified" versus "unqualified" really matters.

I think the point is that based on the intelligence we were presented many people believed that Saddam posed a threat. They believed he either had WMD's or was thought to be developing them.

All of these people believed that. None of them had information to the contrary that proved without a doubt they were wrong. Therefore nobody is willfully lying by making those statements. And that is what nuts like CVille like to keep repeating - BUSH LIED!! BUSH LIED!!. I think I will get her a bumper sticker for Christmas if she doesn't already have one just to make her happy even though what the sticker says isn't true. Nobody willfully lied to lead us into war. I'm sorry but that is just revisionist theory and an easy escape mechanism for a very unpopular war.

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One of the unwritten rules in politics is that politicians never waste a disaster. It is closely followed by knowing when to stop. And a really good politician knows how and where to find the balance.

Joe Wilson opened his own mouth and out jumped something spiteful; unless there was someone sitting behind him controlling his vocal chords?

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I had not claimed that it was impossible to gain political ground by attacking the outburst. (OK, I had said that we were NOT being successful in doing so).

But the core point was that it is scummy to gain political ground by attacking something which is not truly wrong. I agree that that's an unwritten rule of politics. But can't we agree that we don't want politics to be like that? Isn't it our responsibility to fix that? Aren't we, to some extent, doing the same "well, they torture too, and they're worse" justification if we allow ourselves to be opportunists?

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This is why Joe Wilson's outburst was so wrong.

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I agree that it could be interpreted as wrong for those reasons. But again, none of that states why the outburst itself was wrong. Just why it could be interepreted that way in the light of lots of (pretty horrible) South Carolina history - why it was perhaps wrong for HIM.

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He violated the rules of the House, end of story. To not sanction him would only lead to a further breakdown of civil debate.

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I wasn't aware of the deep populist devotion to the internal governance procedures of the House. By all means go after him.

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Your willful obtuseness is no excuse for a lack of decorum.

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I'm not offended by the outburst; I'm appalled Wilson exists at all. Given that fact, it's like being offended by rats in the basement.

But note that Wilson looks the hero, not a fool, to a faction of persistent secessionists.

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So your objection is not to the statement, or to the forum, or to the manner of it. It's that you just don't like the person.

Does Wilson become LESS the hero by our making a bigger deal out of this than it is? Does loudly condemning him not just elevate his status among the secessionists you mention?

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Making him more a hero is not the certain outcome of simply censuring him without fuss. I agree loud proclamations aren't the point.

But it is not his person I am appalled by, but his ignorant and uncivilized perpetuating of civil war glory, his complete reversal of truth, and his pandering to white fears.

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Totally agreed. He's absolutely a dirtbag.

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Congress isn't a popularity contest. These folks haven't run for student council or to pad their resumes. They've asked for the privilege of representing the citizens of this supposed democracy. They should understand that and treat their offices and their colleagues with respect.

Even still, it's not the outburst that offends me. It's the utter and complete hypocrisy of the outburst.

The President lies? Which president would that be? The one who assured us that there were WMDs in Iraq? The one who said that the White House would make sure to hold accountable the person or persons responsible for the Valerie Plame leak?

That's to say nothing of the lies being repeatedly told by members of Congress with their death panels and their newfound love for Medicare and seniors.

It's true that both sides are masters at political maneuvering. The difference here is that one side is using it to make a guy look like the total assclown he is. The other side is using it to obstruct and kill meaningful legislation. Thirty years from now, Joe Wilson and his lack of self-control will be a historical footnote. If he and his colleagues get their way, so will healthcare reform.

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How is the outburst itself hypocritical?

Perhaps the person who made the outburst is a worthless sack. Perhaps his party has done unimaginable damage to this country in an attempt simply to "win" against the other side, and he has validated that by supporting them mindlessly.

But that all just kills his credibility as someone who is genuinely working to improve things.

He presumably hates immigrants, immigration, etc. -- consistently. If he sees the president as having lied about whether or not the bill covered illegal immigrants (there's a sliver of an interpretation that it did at that point, though it misses the point that they would have had to buy in, if I understand correctly), how is it hypocritical for him to yell that out?

"But you're worse" (Bush lied bigger) isn't really a compelling argument.

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No, Bush didn't "lie bigger." Bush lied us into a tragic, bloody war. Obama didn't lie at all.

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I'm sure Joe Wilson believes that Obama is lying, even though he's not. My argument isn't that Bush lied bigger. My argument is that if Wilson is so incensed by lies, how come he wasn't so pissed off when Bush was proven to lie (over and over and over)?

Also, apparently Wilson has previously recorded votes where he thought healthcare for immigrants was just fine. So the righteous anger is a little much.

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I see your point, if he's been fine with immigration in the past. In general, I don't think it's ok to respond to a substantive point with "but you're wrong on this other thing" -- it's far more useful to the rest of the world to respond to the actual point rather than to the weirdnesses of the person making it.

If he changed position merely for a quick political point, though, I agree with you in saying that's despicable. Given the opportunism on his side, I totally agree with your being pissed at him. I still kind of liked that SOMEONE did it, though, on SOME issue, to SOME president. Don't we want our debate on important things to be a little more free-for-all, and a little less talking-points-in-opposing-speeches?

That said, I also liked Obama's response -- forgiving, and not (admitting to) letting it bother him.

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Yes, I'd like the debate to be more of a debate and less dueling press releases. However, Joe Wilson didn't speak out in the heat of a debate. He spoke out of turn while the President of the United States was addressing a full session of both houses of Congress, with all but one of the Cabinet Secretaries present. He deserves what he gets.

Moreover, for eight years, I listened to the Republicans spout off about how people who weren't with the President were un-American and treasonous. I'm pretty sure I'd like to see those people who held they view made to vote on whether to censure, rebuke, admonish, or whatever, Joe Wilson. We already know they only mean people who don't believe what they believe are un-American and they have no respect for the actual office of the President and the will of the voters. I'd just like to see them confirm it.

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“Are we really offended? Outraged? Seriously, is your sense of decorum injured by this? Is this "just not done" in polite society?”

We are far from a polite society. That being said there are certain places, certain institutions where there are different rules as to decorum. Church is one, most people don’t interrupt the sermon if they did those stern faced ushers would, well, usher…them out. Wedding ceremonies are another, it’s usually considered bad form if you yell something like “You lie!” just as the bride says “I do.” Her brothers would probably rebuke your ass in a very harsh way. And if you really think that Wilson’s outburst was OK, I suggest you go down to your local courthouse tomorrow and refuse to remove your Nascar hat or refuse to stand when the judge walks in or just try yelling something non offensive like “burrito” during the proceedings let alone “You lie!”. Better yet, really up the ante and do it at a federal courthouse so you’ll be facing federal charges.

It’s not OK. I hate the hysteria in some circles about it but its still not OK and it should be treated in a manner that will assure no repeats. Period.

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Very well put, and in language even the intentionally obtuse should understand.

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"intentionally obtuse"

Heh, heh, heh. Backatcha.

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I'm not, nor is anyone, claiming that there are not rules of decorum for that forum. (like the rhyme?)

I'm saying that I think those rules are crap. He broke those rules, and I'm fine with it. I'd be fine if someone walked into a courthouse and yelled about Burritos at a judge, too. Not bright, maybe, but funny.

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"I'm saying that I think those rules are crap. He broke those rules, and I'm fine with it."

Fair enough. I rebuke thee.

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So Rep Wilson made a strong statement of belief in a public forum, in a very very forceful way.

It stands to reason then that he is welcome to support his statement in an equally public way, and have his arguments verified and fact-checked.

We are still waiting for documented evidence or informed argument in support of that clear declaration of intent to argue with the president.

Until his conclusion (the president's "lie") is supported by proper argument in a public forum and subjected to rigorous testing against known facts, Rep Wilson's outburst is merely the ranting of a schoolyard bully.

Any sanction should derive from his (I think likely) failure to sustain a proper argument and have that failure admitted in a way that essentially matches the original challenge.

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