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Whose Sandbox Is It?


Picture this.  You live at 100 Any St., Somewhere, World  1111z.  The house across the street has been empty for a while, the last inhabitants had the good sense to move since they weren't welcome.  You don't know where they went and you could not possibly care less.  Just as long as it was very, very far away.  The ones before them?  They never finished unpacking before they got the vibe.  The general, neighborhood goodbye.  See 'ya!

  

Amazing, someone with an actual family seems to be living there.  They even have children, little ones.  Ah well, not to worry.  They won't last long ... they look even stranger than the last ones.  Why is he mowing the grass and trimming the hedges?  Is she actually putting in a garden??  Try not to pass out, but what you're seeing is true!  They have an honest-to-goodness sandbox in their so-called yard!  And it looks just like the one your children have in YOUR real yard!  That can't be right.  Something must be done.  Time to round up that neighborhood vibe.

When you're not looking, picture this.  Their little kids run across the street (even they know better!) and land in your sandbox - with your children.  Since nobody told them, they just play with each other and get all covered in sand.  Laughing and giggling, actually touching each other.  Before you know it, they're fighting and the kids run back across the street ... leaving your sand all over the road in between.  Then they climb into their sandbox -- with some of your sand still clinging to their little bodies.  Next day?  Your little kids run across the street (learning bad habits!) and land in their sandbox.  'Cause kids have an annoying way of forgetting about the fights they had yesterday.  More giggling and laughing, more coverage of sand.  Shovels full!  Their sand, just imagine, on your precious children!  So your kids run home ... leaving their sand all over the road in between.  Then they climb into their sandbox and, well, you can see where this whole thing leads.

You and your neighbor (excuse me?  your neighbor?) stand in your yards scratching your heads in befuddlement.  All this sand in the road and none left in the boxes.  How are you supposed to figure out which grains are yours?  And why are those kids having such a good time playing and laughing on the swingset?  They don't seem to care about the sand.  That's very strange.

Maybe if we all decide that the sand that we claim is made up of grains of each other, we won't fight so much.  Especially in the places where the grains are thousands of years old ... and we are only children.    


102 Comments

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Just so the neighborhood cats don't claim it as their own first.

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Who's to say? That might be rather appropriate.

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Speaking from personal experience, they will.

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Did someone call me? :-)

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Melissa, that is one of the most inciteful posts I've ever read, that is, if you are relating it to the current situation in the Middle East, as I suspect you are...

There has been so much acrimony over this issue...with as heated as it gets here at TPM, I can only imagine what it must be like for the people living it.

Maybe if we, here, can get past the use of hot-button rhetoric, there's hope they will be able to there.

Thank you, and rec'd!

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Thanks still, as usual, you get the point. I have to leave for a bit, so keep the conversation going!

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The process called kin selection, where you sacrifice yourself to save your children or your sibling's children, or your brother, or a cousin's children, is the evolutionary explanation for altruism. At its greatest extension, it may be a reverence for any life, including bacteria, since it all carries at least a few or your own genes.

The safest path to the future is to have the greatest biological diversity, since this offers the most hedging bets. Protecting as many cultures and peoples as possible, even if it leads to the old British diplomat's complaint, "Must every language have a state?", seems wise.

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Tom, would the greatest biological diversity not be served by finding ways to avert wars? The more young people, the greater the gene pool, the more variety, the better?

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Yes, more human diversity, but it has to coincide with improved standards of living, and especially civil rights/justice. Otherwise we have runaway human population eliminating all those kindred DNA carriers, i.e. other species. An effective plague here or there, or famine, helps a bit, but never is sufficient. Intentional restraint by individuals is how populations become steady.

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I can see where I steered you wrong. I meant that I'd like to see less wars and more people alive (not killed in war). I wasn't calling for an increase in population - though I can see how my wording made it sound that way.

Let's face it. There likely should be a license to have kids. That'll never happen, but some folks don't have the requisite time and patience. Too many kids get harmed by their own kin.

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She does try to incite occasionally, but here she has insight.

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Aww, Tom. When have I tried to incite (recently)?

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Busted for inciting empathy.

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True empathy comes from listening first - reacting later. Oddly, it reminds me of "don't shoot 'til you see the whites of their eyes". If we all waited until we got that close, and used words of understanding as our weapons, perhaps we could incite a bit of insight.

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OOOPS! Thanks fer lernin' me!

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I know there is so much here, barefooted Melissa. That I will likely have to return with a better response. Like Stilli's.

But here's what comes to mind. And perhaps it will bear a cautionary tale as well:

Many years ago, when we very poor (I was teaching children to help put Mr. TheraP through grad school), friends of ours entrusted their daughter to us while they went to New Haven to find lodging for a job change. The children had known each other since they were babes in arms (literally). And one afternoon they were out playing wherever in the countryside they decided to go. Turned out it was the nearby creek. They came home covered in mud! We hosed them off outdoors - reveling in the fun they had obviously had.

Many years passed. It turned out their child had been sexually abused. Many years of therapy and college later, she was hit by a drunk driver and suddenly killed.

You never know what 2 children, covered in mud, might have underneath that mud. You can't tell if they are Jewish (yes, she was!) or not (our son was not, unless Mr. TheraP is of Marano blood, which indeed he might be). You can't tell if some tragedy has occurred in childhood, which never should have happened. You can't tell if they'll grow up or not, die young or not.

You simply have two children. Delighted to play (safely) in the mud. Not being reprimanded for that, but hosed off. Children who did not need to fear rockets or minefields or cluster bombs - but only homegrown abuse.

It's such a shame to stereotype!

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One never knows what lies behind the sand, until one digs deeply.

Most times, I've found anyways, it's treasure.

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I remember how easy it was to make friends in elementary school. A little harder in junior high.
Tougher in High School.

I just had a nice fellow drop a few light hearted comments on my post and somebody came and castigated him. Said to shoot his keyboard or some such.

Why? There was no racism or rancor in his comments.

A lot of the new friends I just made at this site as a newbie, have childish qualities. Not naivete, not ignorance, just more of a child in their writings.

Others think they are more sophisticated, more intelligent, more educated, more knowledgeable.
I have run into people in my life that I labeled as idiots but found out later, much to my embarrassment that they knew some things. Some things I did not know.

I see comments and replies that bother me from time to time:

What do you know anyway?

You are just another gd conservative, you hate everybody.

You are just another gd liberal with starry eyes and no real grasp of the realities around you.

Only an idiot would come to a conclusion like that.

Only a racist would think this way.

Only an uneducated person would proffer such an opinion.

Get some Pepto Bismol and your intestinal problems will away.

Some radio announcer would say, take that bone out of your nose, hang up and call me back when you have considered some things.

When we find racism, sexism, anti-gay comments, we must reply.

But I will jump the gun sometimes. I will make judgments about people based on one paragraph.
I will explode. I have gotten better since I arrived here some 2 or 3 three months ago.

We must treat people as we would like them to treat us. Not treat people as we deem they would treat us. There is a difference.

Missy. I like this post a lot. I would like to come back and rethink some things.

This is stream of consciousness, but I was trying to get out some feelings here.


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We must treat people as we would like them to treat us. Not treat people as we deem they would treat us. There is a difference.

There is a lot of wisdom in that statement. If we treat people as we deem they would treat us, and they return in kind, it becomes a circle that is nearly impossible to break.

And Missy, your sand story reminds me of the Sneetches. After a while, it's impossible to tell who started off with a star on their belly. Dr. Seuss and his wisdom for the world. If only we would listen.

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O, what a great analogy! The Sneeches is exactly what it is like.

For those who are not familiar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh1qWZWNGGE

Awesome post Mis. I don't think I could add anything more to the insightful comments already here.

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Very well said, I like your comment alot. You have put your finger on many points, without moving your hand. Quite a talent, that.

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Not to politicise such a well spoken (typed?) post but this brings to mind the line in Obama's Innagural about how the notions of tribe will one day dissappear. Would that it were so sooner not later ya know?

Great post! Rec'd

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Tribe is a natural human social unit. It ain't going nowhere. My tribe is in the process of reinforcing ours.

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No, tribe is an evolutionary thread. As we grow together and intermingle the notion of tribe becomes just that, a notion. As such it holds less and less meaning (he ain't like us). I see it as a perfect example of the sand having no inherently distinguishable form.

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I am reminded of my friend at work, who delights in looking at falling snowflakes and captures them on her bare fingertips and makes me study their exact shape, knowing as we all do that each snowflake differs from the rest, and yet each - when added to each other - become the collective voice of a virgin blanket over a hillside (perfect for sledding, or just looking at) or the building blocks of a perfect snowman or snowball fight.

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You made my point cat. Tribe was a development which reaches far back in our evolution. It is every bit as much a part of our makeup as our being bipedal.

Just look at our primate cousins. With the exception of Orangutans, they all live in tribal societies.

It is very satisfying for humans to live in groups with self similarity and enjoy amity with those of tribe, and exhibit enmity to those who don't share aesthetic similarity to the tribe.

Humans experience an unsatisfying lonleiness in genetically atomized, deracinated 'crowds'.

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Good to hear you believe in evolution. And god be with you.

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Geez, TheraP - must you be so damn rude-snarky vis-a-vis the whole religion-thing?? I find it a real turn-off - and I'm a flippin' tree-hugger!

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(psst..coral..renaye is a fundie troll) Thera is actually being quite nice. Much more than deserved considering the commenter in question.

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I don't care if it's Rush Limbaugh in drag. From what I've read she's engaging in political discourse; not trolling.

Last time I checked TPM didn't require one be a liberal to post here - and I've been reading Josh since the War of the Chads days.

Dunno about you guys but I think echo chambers suck. Besides... didn't you get the memo re appreciation of diversity? ;-)

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If you can find political, philosophical, or rational sense across the threads today (for the one above), I humbly seek your assistance in elucidating that. (Meanwhile, I shall refrain from any further comments in that particular direction.)

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I humbly apologize to you. No offense was meant in your direction, I assure you.

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Unlike global warming, evolution is not a 'belief'.

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How about the tribe that lives here Renaye? It is but a small cozy village in the grand scheme of things. It all depends on your view now doesn't it?

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nice picture sort of global in nature

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I toyed with the idea of the whole earth pic, but of course you can only see one side at a time. I knew the poster in question would say something like "What, Africa?"

I have to anticipate and circumvent when dealing with such commenters. :)

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There are many tribes 'here'.

Some tribes are nurtured, encouraged, and coddled by misbegotten government policies in place due to disproportional influence by a key tribe.

Some tribes, such as mine, survive under distress and constant assault. I am confident we will survive as a tribe, and become stronger for it.

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You have made several comments on various threads alluding to your "tribe". And here you say: "Some tribes, such as mine, survive under distress and constant assault."

I feel like you are hinting at something. Please tell me, what "tribe" do you belong to?

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I'm confident you've got it figured out. Trying to lure me into an unapropos statement, aren't you? You're a bit cunning that way.

You've got to admit frog, this is fun! It's funny how we develop affinity for those we know only through cartoonish avatars and occasional sniping quips.

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I'm not trying to lure you into anything, renaye. I just wish you would quit beating around the bush, hinting, and playing games, and just come out and say what you mean. If you won't state plainly what you mean, you're just proving that you are ashamed of it, or you are a coward.

All your hints about your "tribe", and comments like this one:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/justachicagovoter/2009/01/you-have-got-to-hear-this.php#comment-3351596
- and your eagerness to leap to the defense of the Nazis:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/closetluddite/2009/01/in-defence-of-war.php#comment-3351346
- these don't leave too much doubt about where you're coming from. But you won't come out and say it.

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"beating around the bush"

That's it, tt!

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I would add pictures of "tribes" of Pacific Islanders being inundated by Global Warming....but that would be too perfect a retort.

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You would have to employ some graphics experts to falsify those pictures, ala the polar bears falling through the ice on Al Gore's famous hoax documentary!!!!

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I think people have different capacities as regards their relationship to "tribe". To some, the only safe group [tribe] is immediate family. To others it is their neighborhood [gated, possibly]. For some it could be their state, I live in Texas where this is almost a religious expression. Then nationalism, "Love it or leave it" Then there are those blessed few who see themselves as members of the tribe of humankind.

I think we are born with some capacities in full flower. Self expression, for instance. The capacity to play with everyone is a subset of self expression.

Then we are taught that it isn't safe to be self expressed and we keep making our "safe zone/tribe" smaller and smaller until we find ourselves in a tiny box of our own invention.

I think the admonition that we can't enter heaven unless we are as little children is about being self expressed. [I imply no religious position with this reference]

As adults we will watch kids play and say "If only we could bottle and sell what they have, we would be millionaires."

The irony is that we HAVE bottled it, bottled it up in ourselves and forgot where we put it.

If you want to do a great exercise, ask some kids what an adult is. The answers they give are the ones that we had at that age and grew into.

"Adults don't play, adults say no, adults are serious, adults don't listen, adults are always busy"

"We have met the enemy and he is us" Walt Kelly

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Dittos on that first paragraph.

However, being born into an environment which lacks 'tribe', is much akin to being born an orphan.

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I think you have it backwards. You are born into the tribe "humankind" and then start removing yourself from it either by generalizing experiences [that redhead was a jerk, therefore all redheads are jerks] or listening to people who made the same mistake. I'm sure there are other ways we isolate ourselves, but they are rooted in fear [usually of the unknown].

When we have isolated ourselves from all perceived threats, THEN we are orphans.

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I have to copy and save that comment. Succinct and perfectly to the point.

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Very well said. Thank you.

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Missy, I certainly hope this will not sidetrack your post, but I feel the need to say it, and we can either discuss, or you can tell me to hit the road...

My feeling is that the current deteriorating situation in the Middle East is occurring not so much because of the root problem, but because of the rhetoric and tactics being used.

Granted, the root problem is huge, but I am unable to hear people listening to each other. I can't see people trying to put themselves into the other's shoes and working out a solution that is beneficial to both. Figuring out how to peacefully co-exist.

I am not naive...I understand that the fundamental differences are almost beyond comprehension. But I also see children dying...children living in an intolerable situation...being raised to hate people they don't even know...It needs to stop. I don't know what our role as Americans can be, but I hope we will explore ALL possibilities to make this end.

We need to have serious, passionate debate about it. But it needs to be civil, and everyone needs to feel like they can make their views known, so that perhaps some gem of an idea might spring forth that will advance the cause of peace.

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Stilli, it is so difficult to be civil sometimes.

What hath man wrought? And wrought in the name of God.

I am with you in the sense that I can express no expertise on the subject, because I have none.
I know that Hamas uses the innocent, the children,
the mothers as shield while it attempts to blow up Israel. I know that Israel, with better weapons, does the same.

If I find fault with Israelis am I for the destruction of the Israeli Nation?

If I question the tactics of Hamas, am I a Zionist?

If I disagree with your opinion, am I a racist? Or a war mongerer?

I have hopes for the new team that is now working on the issue on behalf of our Secretary of State and the President.

I know that even if these good people find a resolution to the problems, even short termed, they will be attacked as being anti Israel or Zionists.

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It'll be interesting when Hillary takes hold of the levers of power.

Far from being "diplomatic", if some of the rumors about her behavior leaked by the secret service during her first lady days are true, she's hot-tempered, impulsive, and borderline nuts.

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Thou hast gone and done as thou describes. But there is yet time to repent. Go in peace and seek the Lord.

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You trying to proselytize someone? How evangelical.

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Oh look, isn't that cute... She found a thesaurus!

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The delay is understandable. See, spric had it propping up a leg of the kitchen table.

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I heard a rumor that you're actually a fat, old, stupid, male poster named s'prick that got banned due to vulgar comments.

Must be true.

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Bible balm seems to help with the transformation that has come upon him.

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Does it contain water from the Fountain of Salmacis?

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Likely. Likely.

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How did you find out about me so fast?

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Might I request you tread softly? You're on my turf. All voices are welcome when they welcome others freely. When they choose discourse, they must then play in the sandbox.

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Forgive me, Missy, for answering in your stead, but this comment Stilli, nearly deserves a blog of its own.

Yes, why are we not trying to put ourselves in the shoes of everyone in this conflict? As Missy has said so well, across a couple of blogs, we are all one. And what happens to you, happens to me and so on.

It's not a perfect example, Stilli, but this morning a good friend sent out an Australian poster, from the 70's. It was related to the Aboriginal struggle. And I'll put a link here. There are 2 sentences. I like the second one best. It tells us that we can work together if we make the struggle "our own."

http://www.northlandposter.com/catalog/p539.html

I think this is in the spirit of the blog and of your comment, Stilli.

I think the thought of children suffering tugs at our heart-strings. All children. Any children. I'd love to see the world's children playing together - in safety. And the world's adults trying to emulate that.

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TheraP, say whatever you wish, it need not be in my stead.

Still, look to the youth to change the world. As fresh eyes open, old hatred dies. Would we have a President Barack Obama without them?

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I so agree! Yes, I can see young people coming along are far more tolerant in general. I hope they keep that sense of tolerance. And may we remain open and compassionate as well.

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Nice post. Sooner or later those kids are going to have a spat. Have you ever noticed that parents don't necessarily get the whole picture?

When my kids were young, we would go on a family trip. My daughter, who was 10 years older than my son, would tease and pick at her brother just to get a rise out of him. Eventually it would work and, since he was less mature, he would come back scratching and picking at her more ferociously.

My wife would be oblivious to all this until, suddenly my daughter was not feeling so good about the little battle she had unleashed and was calling, "MOM!" Then my wife would turn around and call down my son.

Happened every road trip.

Folks who aren't paying attention to the whole process often get it wrong.

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Excellent, excellent allusion, Marq.

Moms want world peace. We all do.

Sometimes, though, we forget what it is like to be children.

We emulate them well enough, without remembering that they only want what's good and comforting and sweet. Cynicism comes with age, just like big noses and ears. We forget what it's like to just have big eyes.

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[Children] We emulate them well enough

Yes, I think in conflicts we often end up squabbling like kids. Pulled down to the lowest common denominator.

Here's my question: How do we here at TPM find ways to discuss things which are full of conflict without losing our sanity, our adult ability to put ourselves in the shoes of others, to empathize with their travails and find ways to appeal to the better angels of all of us?

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TheraP. If you say that the banking crisis is caused by poor people who applied for mortgages they could not afford;

I would like to reply that you are nothing but a fascist who wishes to ignore the obvious felonious conduct of management.

When I respond in that manner, you feel I have slapped you and I feel really clever--for about five minutes.

I could have replied that mortgages were given to poor people who could not afford them on the say so of the vendors of the mortgages so that the vendors could get their percentage of the profits.
Right away and not at the time that the mortgage could be paid off.

Then I can go into other substantial contributing factors of the mortgage melt down.

I don't think that we are going to talk each other into some other position. But you might sight a few articles on the subject and so should I in response. I re-read my evidence and I read yours. Maybe I learn something.

But I learn nothing calling you a fascist.

Again, if I allege that Israel is killing more innocent people than Hamas and you say I am a racist or that I am calling for the extermination of Jews or Zionist radicals or the State of Israel, I might just reply FU and leave.

Neither one of us is there, although I assume you have traveled more than I--I have never been to the ME. But we learn nothing and we get angry.

A lot of ad hominem sp arguments out there today and even though the objects of some of the rancor were less than thoughtful in their statements, the insults did not do anything but cause more rancor.

That is all I got right now.

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Oh this is terrible, you're going to think I'm a total douche for saying this. I'm not! (really!)

I see the mother in MdSSS's allegory being the willfully oblivious pacifist hoping the squabling stops on its own instead of stepping in early when it could be managed peacefully. When it doesn't stop she is forced into war (Billy, STOP IT!) when diplomacy and negotiation earlier in the process could have saved the day...

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No, she was truly oblivious... But, in any case, she has left this world. Why do you not accuse me of this error... obviously (although behind the wheel with my mind on other things), I saw it.

The children could have worked out things on their own, but when my daughter found it convenient she called on her more powerful ally, although the whole mess was her doing.

Reminds me of a situation in the Middle East.

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No doubt! And yet I'm inclined to see your part as that of the EU or UN...

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As the UN, I eventually pointed out what was going on to my wife. You would think that would work, wouldn't you. Just as if you pointed out to the US that Israel is abusing its relationship with US, you would think we would focus our corrective action on our client state rather than on its victims.

I will not go into why it didn't work with my wife.

Why does it not work with the US?

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Sounds like you're teasing out two kinds of pacifism here. One kind is disengaged. The other engaged. I like that distinction very much. I'd like to hope I'm in the second category. And I wonder if many "isms" are like this - two types, maybe more. And maybe what often happens in an argument is that people pay attention to the "ism" and stereotype it, rather than considering who is really speaking and what are they really trying to say.

I think we need to become better listeners. Willing to take the time to really understand instead of "peg" people, put them into slots and assume we really understand them. It really does a kind of violence to someone to do that. It totally stops communication. Turns people off. Ends diplomacy.

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Us.

Them.

Light.

Dark.

Here.

There.

We are dualistic creatures, no doubt of that. And yet, both parts of it are required to make the whole.

Never all one or the other, always some dynamic balance. And while one overcomes the other, we can also see it as one inevitably following the other. Each in turn, and from that, everything.

Sorry to go all Taoist on everyone, just seemed like it was called for somehow.

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Going Taoist is not something to feel guilty for.

To everything, turn, turn, turn,
there is a season, turn, turn, turn....

Darkness would not exist, if not for the light. What a great reminder, Grouch.

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For what is sunshine without rain?

I would cite that but I can't remember where I heard it.

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THE WEATHER CHANNEL

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It's going to be mostly partly cloudy in the normally higher regions of our nation today.

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The clouds are expected to be unusually thick around 4:20 p.m.

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*snort*
Dangit DD you made me snort my coffee out my nose!
hehehe :-)

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I hear about the 7 second delay. But a 7 hour delay? hahahahahahah

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I'm a Luddite. I use gerbil-net and I was having trouble checking my parity-ferret.

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Now, the Star-Belly Sneetches
Had bellies with stars.
The Plain-Belly Sneetches
Had none upon thars.

Sorry to go all Seussist on everyone :)
http://www.chrisdunmire.com/essays/seuss-sneetches.shtml

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And the sand needs the sun to become a crystal.

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One of your best, Barefoot. Thank you.

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Thanks, Hilary.

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Reading the threads tonight, over and over I'm breaking into laughter. As I ponder the issue of the resolution of conflicts, I had a moment of shattering clarity: What if humor could stop wars? I somehow think it would be hard to fight if people were laughing.

[full disclosure: I first posted this thought at ClosetLuddite's blog - but I can't attest to where I was when I first had the thought. Too bad... When you come up with the method to stop wars, you should recall that moment in every particular.]

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I fully support this theory! It seems like when people lighten up a bit the discourse is less likely to turn vicious more likely to produce new thought.

Doesn't always work but at least I get a chuckle once in a while.

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'Night, all. Sleep peacefully. Shall we continue later this morning? I look forward to it ... (shhh, someone secretly mentioned 100 comments, I thought they were crazy).

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In the eyes of many their sand is theirs and your sand is theirs. So you better be ready to make a big damn fuss over who has a right to the sand and if it should be shared. That includes fighting and dying to get your fair share. That's just the way it is. Human nature says so. And if you and your neighbors don't see eye to eye on this someone will have to decide to or be made to change. That's the way it usually goes.

It's probably best to figure out, sooner rather than later, that nobody actually really cares about the sandbox at all. It's never about the sandbox.

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Ms. Macklin, that was even better than your election-time overnight chat posts. You couldn't have selected a better metaphor - and what makes it even better is that it applies just about everywhere in the geopolitical world.

I'd rec this twice if I could.

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Many thanks, kind sir.

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I just had a thought. Glass is made from sand. You can look through glass. It allows you to see what the sand - if it remains in grains - hides. As children we play in sand. As adults we need to beware of glass houses. Just playing around a bit with your metaphor, Missy.

Still mulling it all over. This again is a post to return to for more and more insight.

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I think the OP basically has it right. If you're an American (of any stripe) you're pretty much obligated to buy into the post-civil rights antitribal ideal.

Heck, you can't let yourself be seen in public in this country otherwise. Which is fine. I actually DO buy into that ideal, rather than faking it, so I don't mind at all.

However, what the OP doesn't realize is that the inhabitants of the middle East, of all religions, just aren't like that.

They are tribal. And proud of it. It's possible to read the Old Testament and come away with a powerful sense of Us against Them (it's probably a more honest reading than the one most evangelical Christians give it). Not only that, but Us means Our People and Their Descendants. Them is Everybody Else.

I'm not blaming Israel; they were dealt the hand they were dealt. Everyone was.

But until you get beyond the paradigm implicit in the original post, the idea that this is "just like America", and we can all get along if we just get the kids to play together, you'll never understand the mideast.

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The post is not meant to imply that as long as the children play together, then all is well. In fact, it speaks to the "Us v. Them" mentality. The point is, however, which tribe put the sand in the road? If the answer is both, then it takes far less time and effort to reconsider the new pile than to try to separate the grains.

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I guess, then, that my point is that to the people in question, the difference between "our sand" and "their sand" is more important than peace.

"Less time and effort" is only relevant if you're considering the problem in utilitarian or empirical terms (as we Americans are generally used to doing). That's not the way these people were brought up; they take tribe, God, and obligation seriously.

Empirical problems are what you deal with -after- you decide what is right, not a part of -how- you decide what is right.

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Your point, then, seems to assume two certainties. The first being that those in the Middle East do not care to apply logic to battle; the second that Americans generally do. Do Americans not take tribe, God and obligation seriously - as much to a fault at times as any other nationality?

"Our sand" and "their sand" , more important than peace. I doubt there are many in Somewhere, World who believe that when they bury a loved one in that very sand.

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I think that American elites generally take tribe, obligations, and God substantially less seriously than most people in the middle east.

Legacy of enlightenment rationalism, and all that. I just don't think that the original example of a suburban street actually resembles the middle east at all.

Even the children know better than to play together.

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Not all of them. And therein lies the hope.

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I couldn't find a way to load it, TheraP, although I tried a couple of different things. I'm on dial-up, so it may just be a problem on my end. Thank you so much for the thought - I've no doubt it was beautiful.

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you're right... it says "page not found." Let me go back and see if I missed something... actually I duplicated something. (I took it from elsewhere)

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/sufi/video/x6ab1b_yunus-emre-tasavvufi-sufi-music_lifestyle

I think this will work now. It worked when I previewed it.

Apologies. I think you'll like this. :)

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barefooted

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