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Thank you Hillary! Now we KNOW who we'd want answering that 3am call...
When I read a conservative writing the following:
"OK, that's over. And so is the McCain campaign. He was more aggressive than he's been so far, and he came close to landing some blows on Obama. But he never really connected, and for the most part this debate was as platitudinous as they all have been. McCain came off as sour, agitated and petulant. Obama -- man, nothing rattles that guy. McCain was two tics away from a vein-popping "You can't handle the truth!" Jack Nicholson moment, I felt. At one point, I thought: Which one of these men would I want in the White House when the 3 a.m. phone call comes in?"
I felt like the argument that Hillary's kitchen sink approach would make Obama a better candidate was fully vindicated. My apologies to anybody with whom I argued otherwise at the time.
I've been a long-time supporter of Obama in this campaign but tonight I really felt for the first time that people who weren't or who were very ambivalent to him would have had a moment just like the one described above where they just imagined which of these two men they would want in charge during a crisis. I think everyone has commented on just how angry McCain really seemed tonight. He managed to not jump across the table but barely. Just barely. His veins were popping and he was clearly taking deep breaths (some caught by the mic) just to calm down. If a presidential debate gets you THAT upset, what about a real crisis where lives or our nation's safety is at stake?
I feel that quite a few people thought 'whoa, at 3am that crazy bastard might nuke somebody!' and maybe, just maybe had a thought similar to this one expressed much earlier in the campaign by Retired Rear Adm. John Hutson, who has been a Republican his entire adult life, but who now supports Obama, put it this way about facing a national security crisis: "When everybody else goes nuts, the president of the United States needs to get cooler and cooler."
There can no longer be any question that McCain doesn't fit the job description and for quite a few Americans who were on the fence about whether Obama does, I think tonight really will settle it. One of these men felt 'Presidential' and had a certain calmness that would bode well when the shit hits the fan while the other quite possibly WAS the shit hitting the fan!
Again, thank you Hillary for framing the question in such a clear way and though it didn't play out the way you intended I think having the question put in that way was a service to the voters tonight.
"OK, that's over. And so is the McCain campaign. He was more aggressive than he's been so far, and he came close to landing some blows on Obama. But he never really connected, and for the most part this debate was as platitudinous as they all have been. McCain came off as sour, agitated and petulant. Obama -- man, nothing rattles that guy. McCain was two tics away from a vein-popping "You can't handle the truth!" Jack Nicholson moment, I felt. At one point, I thought: Which one of these men would I want in the White House when the 3 a.m. phone call comes in?"
I felt like the argument that Hillary's kitchen sink approach would make Obama a better candidate was fully vindicated. My apologies to anybody with whom I argued otherwise at the time.
I've been a long-time supporter of Obama in this campaign but tonight I really felt for the first time that people who weren't or who were very ambivalent to him would have had a moment just like the one described above where they just imagined which of these two men they would want in charge during a crisis. I think everyone has commented on just how angry McCain really seemed tonight. He managed to not jump across the table but barely. Just barely. His veins were popping and he was clearly taking deep breaths (some caught by the mic) just to calm down. If a presidential debate gets you THAT upset, what about a real crisis where lives or our nation's safety is at stake?
I feel that quite a few people thought 'whoa, at 3am that crazy bastard might nuke somebody!' and maybe, just maybe had a thought similar to this one expressed much earlier in the campaign by Retired Rear Adm. John Hutson, who has been a Republican his entire adult life, but who now supports Obama, put it this way about facing a national security crisis: "When everybody else goes nuts, the president of the United States needs to get cooler and cooler."
There can no longer be any question that McCain doesn't fit the job description and for quite a few Americans who were on the fence about whether Obama does, I think tonight really will settle it. One of these men felt 'Presidential' and had a certain calmness that would bode well when the shit hits the fan while the other quite possibly WAS the shit hitting the fan!
Again, thank you Hillary for framing the question in such a clear way and though it didn't play out the way you intended I think having the question put in that way was a service to the voters tonight.
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Co-sign (if I may). And I, too, need to offer "apologies to anybody with whom I argued otherwise at the time" .... and to Hillary, too, for that matter.
There were a few moments when I wondered if he was - physically - going to make it. And I also thought about that sardonic grimacing and barely-disguised contempt showing on his face when he was in a heated debate with advisors, or members of Congress, or - perish the thought - a foreign leader. It wasn't even 3:00 a.m. and he was already unable to control himself.
This may be an example of being careful of what you wish for. John McCain has long wanted to be President and he has long been a fairly good maverick or at least someone who followed his own slightly different and sometimes even progressive drumbeat. An interesting loner. Loners don't make good leaders.
October 16, 2008 2:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm waiting for people to apologize for thinking that our situation was too precarious to allow democracy, that actually discussing issues was verboten - giving ammo to the enemy - or that dragging out the campaign too long, that was going to destroy the party.
Oh, and I'm waiting for a pony for Christmas.
October 16, 2008 4:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think you just got as much of an apology as anyone can realistically expect.
Both sides made a lot of arguments that hinged on the notion that this whole thing was hanging by the tiniest of threads. And therefore, we couldn't afford to question the other candidate's fitness as commander in chief -- or, we couldn't afford to nominate someone who would test the racial tolerance of those hard-working white folks in Ohio. Etcetera. (I'm not saying that you were making either of those arguments, incidentally.)
Fortunately, we were all wrong. It wasn't hanging by a thread. We're kicking GOP butt. But more importantly, even if it *had* been hanging by a thread, there are certain risks that you just have to be willing to take.
October 16, 2008 7:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, I don't recall both sides doing that, I recall one side doing that. There was never a problem with questioning Hillary's experience, her capacity for dealing with people, the factualness of previous scandals, the details in her proposals, and whatever.
October 16, 2008 8:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Alex hit the nail on the head: It was a very long, drawn out and at times bitter primary fight.
There was no way the supporters of one candidate or the other weren't going to feel crushed if their candidate wasn't the winner. As a result of such a situation, the emotions ran a little raw at times and things clearly got heated. Not necessarily between the candidates themselves, both of whom are the consummate professionals but rather with some of their staunchest supporters. I know I was guilty of it and I'm sure there are many others who were too! That emotional reaction prevented me and many others from both camps from realizing that in the grand scheme of things this was the best thing that could happen to the democrats.
It's similar to college football where the undefeated team from a weaker conference plays a team with a couple of losses from a much better conference. Not always but almost always the team from the stronger conference wins in dominating fashion (think Georgia-Hawaii last year). Why? Because they've been tested and prepared against much stonger competition. That was the difference so far in this campaign. With few exceptions (I'm hard pressed to think of any off-hand) Obama hasn't had to face anything from McCain that he didn't already have to deal with to some degree in the Dem primaries. McCain on the other hand was the winner by default so early he hardly ever took a punch (a few sparring sessions with Romney don't count), much less have to get up off the canvas and fight back harder against a skilled and capable opponent. We he faced one (just like those undefeated teams from weak competition) he didn't have a plausible response. He couldn't gain a consistent footing and he's been withering under the sustained and accurate attack that he hasn't had to face before. All he could do was lash out wildly in response hoping something would work. Meanwhile, Obama has taken his lumps already and was able to competently and strategically use his advantages while knowing how to defend his weaknesses. He wouldn't have been nearly as effective at it if he hadn't had to face Senator Clinton the way he did. The fact that their battle was the main event for so long also meant that the public (yes, a lot of republicans and independents were following the dem primary) already had some exposure to many of Obama's perceived weaknesses. This made them much less damaging when McCain tried to use them since they really weren't breaking any new ground. Last night brought that into a much brighter spotlight. I don't think just Obama supporters were thinking of McCain "That's it?! That's ALL you've got???" when he went on the attack since so much of it was old news.
Another example of this would be the McCain campaign's consistent habit of telegraphing it's punches. That's a trait of an amateur who hasn't had to face a professional counterpuncher before. Against a good fighter you simply can't get away with such a flaw, but you would only know you have that flaw if you've been in a fight against a good fighter before. Another trait is that after taking a good punch, McCain gets angry and loses his discipline. Another fatal flaw against a good fighter. On the other hand, Obama has had to face all of this before and not only knew his flaws but had to learn how to overcome them against a very skilled fighter. Again, I thank Hillary for that. I'm not saying he didn't have those skills before but having to hone them into a razor-sharp edge before taking on McCain made him a much, MUCH better candidate and has enabled him to take advantage of McCain's weaknesses much more effectively.
October 16, 2008 10:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're reversing yourself - your post was about how there was nothing wrong with Hillary's "kitchen sink", how it was just part of the landscape and ended up making Obama stronger (like competing in every state). Now you're saying there had to be one side bitter? Not really - the things that pissed me off most were the inept Democratic leadership that normally can't do anything right or stand up to anyone suddenly decide they have to pontificate about the "right way" and "wrong way" to run a campaign.
And yes, Florida and Michigan, 2 quite large states, did get disenfranchised so we could have another round of farmers on tractors and waitresses in diners telling us what "real people" think.
October 16, 2008 11:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
I will say I'm surprised that the Republican game has been this weak. I had laughed at the idea that what Hillary gave Obama was half as tough as the fall battle, but in retrospect aside from some tenseness about whether Palin would prove dangerously competent, it's been pretty easy pickings.
October 16, 2008 11:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't see a reversal except in my criticism of the kitchen sink approach. I thought it was bad but now see that it did make the nominee a stronger candidate for having successfully defeated it.
But I don't think that takes away from the fact that one side was going to be bitter about not winning such a long and hard fought primary.
I think the whole notion of how to run a campaign the wrong way or right way came out of the feeling that tearing each other down within the party would provide an opening to the republicans that could be effectively exploited in the general election campaign. That was the gist of my concern and many others. It turned out that wasn't the case because the party has been able to come together (for the most part) after the primary and focus on defeating the republicans who I will agree have been surprisingly inept but also were playing with a weak hand.
October 16, 2008 11:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Okay, I thought your main post was saying you thought it would make Obama stronger at the time, contrary to others around you.
October 16, 2008 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Now you're saying there had to be one side bitter? Not really . . . ."
Yes, really: YOU are a bitter-assed twit who CONTINUES to throw a tantrum because no one will put sugar on your thumb before you suck it and WHINE.
Hillary is not the nominee. Grow up and move on.
October 16, 2008 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nah, I'd rather stay here and piss you off. Can I hear you go AAAARRGGHH again?
October 16, 2008 1:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
HEY NGARYA! LAEVE THE CAPS THNG OUT, WILLYA? THAT'S MY SCTHICK! THINGS CAN ARE GONA GO DWONHILL FAST IF EVERYONE STARTS SHOUTING, OK? NO OFENCE ENTENDED DUDE, BUT I'VE GOT A SPEECH IMPECKIMENT THAT MEANS I HAVE TO HIT 140 DECIBELS EVERY TIME I COMMET! BUT I'M RITE WITH YOU ON THE DES THING. HE SUCKS. AND HATES GOLF. LIKE HILRAY.
October 16, 2008 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
What about NASDAQ racing? Whom amongst us wouldn't love NASDAQ racing. And I of course love hunting - I've got an over-and-under shot off sawgun, it's my favorite.
October 16, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's your type, buddy. You and Hil. Clingin' to your NASDAQ & your sawdogs & your bitter-ass Southern Tapdish beliefs.
Me? Well, Nagarya & I are off to the opera. Raisin' the tone, baby. Raisin' the tone.
October 16, 2008 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary isn't the nominee. Grow up and give it up and move on, WHINER.
October 16, 2008 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have a bunch of folks over here doing shots every time you say WHINER. We're getting totally sloshed, way cool.
Though said to say, the more I drink, the more coherent you start to look.
October 16, 2008 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
WHAZZAT? CAN'T HEER YOU OVER THE SHOOTING! SORRY, MEANT SHUOTING! WHAT? WHAZAAT AGAIN? OH! DRINKING! HAVE ONE FOR ME! WHA? CAN I SAY WEINER? SURE I CAN SAY WEIFNER! WHAT? CLOSE ENUF? OK, HAVE ANUTHER!
October 16, 2008 2:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Woah, dude, looking pretty scary, maybe those double shots weren't a good idea. Hold enough. Okay, you can put your teeth in already.
October 16, 2008 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry. I take 'em out when I wanna talk to Nagarya.
October 16, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just saying his name makes me want to chip a molar.
October 16, 2008 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just molared a chipmunk. Not bad.
Got the makings of a nice hat, too.
October 16, 2008 3:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't hold your breath, K?
October 16, 2008 9:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure I ever thought it was going to destroy the party (although I admit the possibility exists for revisionist history--I was pretty worked up back in the spring).
What I did think was that I was tired of the campaign and I really wanted Hillary to shut up and go away. I'm glad she didn't, because I was wrong.
October 16, 2008 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can we stop living in the irrelevant past, please? Let WHINER Desidero WHINE -- at this point little more than an infuriating troll who needs to learn how to GROW UP, GET OVER IT, and MOVE ON.
40 years from now Desidero will have either GRWON UP, or will STILL be whining that most of the votes s/he cast were for the LOSING candidate. WELCOME TO REALITY, Desidero. Now STFU about your poor widdle hurt feelings because you didn't get your way.
Or continue to do a McSame: hold your breath until your face turns blue.
October 16, 2008 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Somebody writes a post relating Hillary/3am to the current situation, and it's me living in the past because I comment?
Hint: write about last night's debate if you don't want me to talk about the distant past. Isn't that kind of obvious? If you don't want to talk about sand traps and water holes, don't go golfing.
October 16, 2008 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
GRWO UP WILLYA?
October 16, 2008 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sure, just as soon as you tee-off. This one's a tough 5 par, and watch out for that water trap on the left side - it's a mofo.
October 16, 2008 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amazing. I'm on, in one.
October 16, 2008 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, watch the golf lingo. That's my schtick. :)
Hence the name PingMama, as in Ping G5's baby!
October 16, 2008 6:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Atreideshawk:
Coule not have said it better myself- thanks for saving me all that typing. Great post!
Regards
October 16, 2008 9:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know why you feel you have to apologize or thank Hillary. She did what she felt she needed to do to win the nomination. She did not to do it to "toughen" Obama or do him any favors. If McCain was the one to bring-up Ayers and Wright there is compelling evidence that it would not have worked either due to Obama's coolness and political savvy and his campaigns ability to parry attacks and stay on message. Plus the election year is just such that voters have no tolerance for swift boating and smearing and do not factor it in their decision. So the real credit goes to Obama. Hillary has got nothing to do with it.
October 16, 2008 11:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
I never questioned her motives for doing so. It's clear she was doing so to win the nomination for herself which is the whole point of running. My point was simply that I (and many others) were critical of her at that time for the strategy she employed to do so. At the time many said it was good for the party overall because it would make the party's nominee that much more battle-tested. I disagreed and thought it would weaken the eventual nominee. I'm just admitting my criticism was incorrect and that it DID make the eventual nominee a stronger candidate.
October 16, 2008 11:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with Eastern_Media_Elite: Hillary did not make Obama stronger. He was strong enough in the first place and her tactics did nothing to enhance his already formidable strength. That he was able to withstand them while laying the groundwork for the general election is testament to his own gifts and devices. The inability of the Republicans to exploit Hillary's failed tactics speaks both to the stupidity of the Republican strategists and the integrity of Obama's ability to take hits while dispatching the opposition.
October 16, 2008 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Save them big eddycated words.
Obama = God.
You read it here first.
October 16, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
But she gave him an opportunity to practice his defense in the face of these attacks and having taken the surprise factor out of play for Mccain, Clinton's attacks served to blunt the effect of any attacks Mccain might make.
October 16, 2008 3:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
NY Times has something up now which includes how mc
Shame threw not only the kitchen sink at him, but the plumber too.
October 16, 2008 11:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
I voted for Bill twice and was excited to both times, and grew to like her even more than i did him. The tail end of the primary was just too much. The race deal, the constantly shifting goal posts when she realized they blew it, all of it. She lost me and won't be gettin me back if she runs for president again, and i know i'm not alone in that. Lookin forward to her havin a long career in the Senate, but no. Some people like power a little too much to be trusted with it, and her behavior at the end of the primary showed me, a supporter, that she's one of 'em.
Keep in mind that she was never ahead of McCain in the polls anyways, and i doubt she will show as well in the future as she has in the past.
The Clinton WhiteHouse era is over, and that saddens me less and less as i look forward to an Obama/Biden administration. Can't wait!
October 16, 2008 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let's see how it handles when we get it on the road.
October 16, 2008 2:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
...and the unbalanced that still can't get over it aren't making her any friends either. Thanks for reminding me, i left that out didn't i?
Your passive/aggressive attempt at aspersion is laughable mostly because it fails to acknowledge that the MAJORITY of those that supported her in the primary now, like myself, support Barack. Or are you not good at math, either?
October 16, 2008 9:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm saying proof is in the pudding (or putting, whatever). Should we proclaim him best president ever before he's served day 1?
October 17, 2008 10:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
ah! i missed that, and thought you were talkin about my comment, and insinuating i had never supported hillary, etc. interesting...
i think that proves im still a little defensive and salty about the hillary deal after all the crap i had to take from my friends that switched to barak much earlier, then feeling so angry at her and bill when things got ugly.
what gives me hope about how it will handle on the road, then, is pretty much the same thing that swung me to barak in the first place. initially i thought he was another kucinich-type candidate -- it didnt matter how much i agree with him if the bastid couldnt win. then when i saw key members of national black leadership and heavyweight house and senate members starting to line up behind him i was like: "hey, those arent just pot-smoking college kids that wont vote anyways." and so it is now with colin powell and madeleine albright etc etc etc. in looking to how it will handle on the road, im heartened by who he has on the team.
October 30, 2008 12:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Man, this reminds me about how Presidents Fowler and Nemerov reacted in the theatrical version of The Sum of All Fears. Both characters lost control of their emotions, nearly leading to nuclear war.
I'm not going to say that would never happen under Obama, but its sure as hell less likely.
October 16, 2008 2:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary says apologies accepted. But she's still waiting to hear from Olbermann and Matthews. They owe her a big one. They started telling her to drop out and pissing and moaning that she'd destroy Obama's chances way back in February.
They acted like the Republicans would never be able to think of ways to attack Obama on their own.
October 16, 2008 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, Hillary totally p3wnd Matthews with that hug and a pinch on the cheek. He just melted into this little boy, he'll never regain any self-respect after that one.
Olbermann on the other hand seems intent on imitating a certain similar breed of German attack dogs. Some people for some reason find that likable (enough).
October 16, 2008 3:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I used to call Olbermann my boyfriend until he started going after Hill. Now he's my ex - he still manages to charm me from time to time then he says something obnoxious and reminds me why we broke up.
October 16, 2008 3:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I swear that in 20 years when this site has gone all virtual reality and we ride personal rocketships, people will still be arguing about whether Obama supporters are worse than Clinton supporters.
October 16, 2008 4:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I hear that!
I didn't mean to rehash old antagonisms, it was really just a genuine feeling that my earlier position was wrong. I thought acknowledging that would be a conciliatory gesture but...
October 16, 2008 5:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your intention was clear, as was your naivety. ;) Using the words "Hillary," "Bill," or "Clinton," in a blog post is guaranteed to provoke a virtual riot regardless of the context.
October 16, 2008 5:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
like screaming fire in a crowded theater...
October 16, 2008 5:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
I thought your original post was saying you disagreed with other Obama fans at the time, that was my only confusion. Acknowledging mistakes is A-OK.
October 17, 2008 10:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
I've been hearing about personal rocketships for decades and it's still hasn't happened. About as like to happen as the paperless office.
October 16, 2008 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bless you Constantine for your literalism.
October 16, 2008 9:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
I really thought he was going to lunge at Obama and grab Obama's nose in his little yellow teeth like an enraged ferret.
And yeah, I was mad during the primary, too, and it turns out that those who said this was a good thing were prescient - they were right.
It did - all this shit McLame has been throwing is old news. And Hillary has done the most stupendous job, from the convention forward, of campaigning for Obama. She really is a serious and grown up person and I cannot send her enough love.
We all get carried away. I used to hate on Andrew Sullivan just because the people I was hanging out with hated on him. I emailed Sully not long ago and told him he was a hell of a fellow and I was sorry I ever thought otherwise.
Quit arguing - we're all on the same side. :)
October 16, 2008 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
My Hillary defender radar went off. Is everything okay in here? Just checking.
October 16, 2008 5:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think so. Just started a mini-riot but otherwise, it's all good.
October 16, 2008 5:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm staying out of it.
October 17, 2008 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
lol...
October 16, 2008 7:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Friend and alibi: McCain just said!!
October 16, 2008 9:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Hillary defenders" can go ahead and take the rest of the month off, or go try sellin that crap to Republicans or the other "hard working white Americans." She lost more than the primary, for real.
October 16, 2008 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
One picture says it all:
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/443/slide_443_10841_large.jpg
October 16, 2008 10:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't feel BO would win this election until the financial crisis revealed itself. This was BO's gift similar to Bush's 911 gift. I find it ironic that both McCain and BO have asked Hillary for advice on the home mortgage situation. At least McCain gives Hillary credit when he inserts her policy ideas into his platform. Can't say the same for BO now, or during the primaries.
Secondly, BO is also doing better because Hillary has thrown her heart and soul into helping BO. Her genuineness is evident, and this is truly swaying her former supporters greatly.
Thirdly, once BO reneged on his public financing pledge, he is able to outspend McCain 3,4, even 9 to 1. It's very difficult to lose when purchasing power to "buy" the election is so lopsided. TV ads are very persuasive to those who do not take the time to do research, which is most people in the general electorate.
Fourthly, the SNL skit of T.Fey portraying SPalin really had a devastating effect by planting lasting seeds. Humor is extremely effective!
People will say negative ads don't work when asked in a poll, but negative ads do indeed work. They always have and always will.
Hillary's still the best!
October 16, 2008 11:03 PM | Reply | Permalink