David Axelrod and Eric Holder on Why Obama is Blocking the Release of More Torture Photos "At This Time"
This came out last night and I attached it to my previous post, but I think it bears some discussion in regards to the whole torture photo release issue. David Axelrod was interviewed by Jim Lehrer. Here is a partial transcript:
JIM LEHRER: Now to our interview with David Axelrod. I spoke with him earlier this evening from the White House Briefing Room.
David Axelrod, welcome.DAVID AXELROD, senior adviser to President Obama: Thanks, Jim. Good to be with you.
JIM LEHRER: Thank you. On the detainee abuse photos, how does the president's opposition to releasing them, to making them public, square with his positions on transparency and public disclosure?
DAVID AXELROD: Well, Jim, his positions on transparency and public disclosure are strong and well known, but they don't -- they're not without limit.
When he believes that the release of materials may jeopardize the national security, then he's going to make that case. In this case, his concern is that the release of the photos from acts that happened years ago will serve to inflame the situation now and endanger our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. And that's something he's not inclined to do.
JIM LEHRER: And on what is that based? Why does he believe that it will inflame these folks in Iraq and Afghanistan?
DAVID AXELROD: Well, obviously, the photos are provocative. We've seen them, photos like them the past. They've had an inflammatory effect. They were used by our opponents and al-Qaida as propaganda tools and recruiting devices. And so we don't want to go back there again.
JIM LEHRER: Have you seen these photographs, as well as the president?
DAVID AXELROD: I've seen some of the photographs.
JIM LEHRER: You agree that they would be inflammatory?
DAVID AXELROD: Well, I think the president has made the right decision. And his first responsibility is to protect the safety of our troops and to protect the country. He's making the decision on that basis.
My fundamental understanding from the president is that he feels strongly that this would have a deleterious effect on our troops, that it would put them in jeopardy, and he wants to pursue all legal avenues to prevent their release at this time...
JIM LEHRER: Did Vice President Cheney's criticism of President Obama and saying that he's jeopardizing the safety of the country have any influence on this decision of President Obama?
DAVID AXELROD: Absolutely not. Believe me, I've been with the president as he speaks about these issues, and he's got one thing on his mind, which is to make the right decision for the troops, for the country, for our national security. I don't think he's worried about comments from the sidelines by anybody.
JIM LEHRER: For the record, there's no concern among the president and his advisers such as you about what Vice President Cheney's been saying about President Obama?
DAVID AXELROD: I don't have any concerns at all. I mean, the vice president has his own motivations, whatever they may be. He is free to offer his opinions.
But the president has responsibilities, and he's going to discharge those responsibilities through his best judgment, regardless of what the vice president has to say.
JIM LEHRER: On the photos, is the president prepared to take this all the way -- it's now in a federal appeals court. If he loses in that case, is he going to go to the Supreme Court with it?
DAVID AXELROD: Well, let's see what happens, Jim. But my fundamental understanding from the president is that he feels strongly that this would have a deleterious effect on our troops, that it would put them in jeopardy, and he wants to pursue all legal avenues to prevent their release at this time, which is a sensitive time in both Iraq and Afghanistan. So, you know, I expect that he will pursue all legal avenues.
One of the key comments made by Axelrod is his qualifier about releasing the photos "at this time", a statement he makes twice in the interview. The second instance being "to prevent their release at this time, which is a sensitive time in both Iraq and Afghanistan."
Considering the rapidly deteriorating situation in Afghanistan, and the recent suicide bombings in Irag after what seemed like a period of quiet, is it difficult to imagine that the release of more torture photos right now could contribute to inflaming an already tenuous situation? Is it not Obama's job to take these things into consideration?
I have a hard to believing that the release of more graphic torture images would not be sensationalized by the world media, that they wouldn't be used to ramp up a new wave of Anti-American sentiment, and that our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan wouldn't be the frontline targets for a new backlash.
It seems that there are many here at TPM that just can't imagine the situation, or the anti-American feelings shared by some (or many) in the Muslim world as possibly getting worse. But you know what? It can always get worse.
We are on our way out of Iraq, why add fuel to a fire that has died down. Afghanistan is unraveling, the Taliban is threatening Pakistan, and we are trying to keep the whole the whole thing from disintegrating into complete chaos. Is now the best time to hand out a fresh round of anti-American recruitment posters to the people who are shooting at our troops every day over there right now as you are reading this?
Maybe you're not worried about putting the troops in greater danger, but it is, after all, Obama's job as Comander-in-Chief to be concerned about such things. Is your judgement, based on the information available to you, superior to his, based on the information available to him?
So what's the problem with not releasing those photos "at this time"? Aren't the photos we've seen enough evidence of widespread corruption and abuse? Aren't 100 photos of torture and a mountain of evidence enough? Does one need to see 1,000 more to really be convinced of the evil and crimes committed under Bush/Cheney?
"But, but, but," you argue, "these photos will be the final push that leads to prosecutions. The others weren't good enough. These are the photos that will really make Americans mad and then they will scream for the heads of Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld. But of course, they won't make anyone else mad, and the notion that this could present a real and present danger to the troops, well, that's just nonsense, the same old cover-up excuse."
Yeah...right.
Update:
Attorney General Eric Holder appeared before Congress yesterday and reiterated the same position:
The United States' attorney general has said he is prepared to go to court to prevent the release of scores of photos reportedly documenting prisoner abuse by US troops. Eric Holder's remarks to US congress on Thursday came a day after Barack Obama, the US president, said he would move to block the court-ordered release of the photos.
Holder told the US house judiciary committee that Obama's reversal of his original decision not to oppose their release was because he feared a backlash against US troops serving in places such as Iraq and Afghanistan. "The president consulted with the generals on the ground and made the determination that the release of those photos would endanger our troops," he said.
"The concern was the release of those photos could have a negative impact on the situation both in Iraq and in Afghanistan and I think the president as commander in chief ... thought that the posture he has now put us in was the better one."
















Thank you. Very well said and very realistic about the stakes here. One more stray thought about timing: Two things are happening concurrently: 1) information coming out about the real reason behind some of the torture (to 'discover' an al-Quaeda/Iraq link)and 2) Obama's decision to fight release of the photos. Coincidence? .. or maybe not? In addition to the very legitimate concern about the troops' welfare, isn't it at least possible that because of #1, the Obama administration is now thinking far more seriously about prosecution or at least a commission to delve into what went on with Cheney & Co. and thus having a far better use of the photos at a later time?
May 15, 2009 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks E. It is important to remember that while the desire to punish Bush/Cheney is great, we can't forget that there are real dangers present for others if this issue isn't handled with care.
May 15, 2009 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just to show my respect for Barack Obama and astral66, I'm providing a link to some of the the photos in question, which were published in Australia in 2006.
So if any of you kids know some Islamic radicals who need to be inflamed, just send them to...
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/05/15/leaked-torture-photos-published-in-2006-may-be-among-photographs-obama-administration-shielding/
And if that still doesn't inflame your radical Islamic friends, and they need a little background, send them here...
http://www.pubrecord.org/torture/906-exclusive-documents-describe-prisoner-abuse-photos-being-withheld.html
Suck on that, Obama!
May 15, 2009 10:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Suck on that Obama? Yeah bash him some more, that will show him. That will make him cringe in the fetal position LOL. Jesus with this guy.
May 15, 2009 10:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I love the fact the the chicken-hearted con-man Obama kills 95 children last week in Afghanistan, and then decides that some photos will inflame Islamic radicals!
Harharharhar!!!
What a moron!
May 15, 2009 11:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kill the children and hide the photos!
It's like a definition of...
Barack Obama!
May 15, 2009 11:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ruta,
Seriously, are u okay? You're being extremely ugly and vicious. It's actually rather frightening.
May 15, 2009 11:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
No there's nothing wrong with him at all, that's how he always acts: Spiteful and full of hate. Typical Rutabaga.
May 15, 2009 11:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's just too bad that Obama's little friends are so offended by an accurate description of their hypocritical and soulless Messiah...
But they just blow off the murder of 95 children in Afghanistan last week, which was the predictable result of rules of engagement which allow bombing civilian targets based on always questionable intelligence.
And why would anyone get "inflamed" about murdering 95 children in one instant?
Can't we just hide some more photos, and forget all about it?
May 15, 2009 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not your message, it's your delivery. 'It's not what you say, but how you say it.'
May 15, 2009 11:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rutabaga plays nice with nice people like you, Aunt Sam, but if you look down the thread, you'll see astral66 making comments like...
"Lish = Blathering Unintelligible Bullshit"
and...
"Where do these morans come from? RushLimpDickHannityBeck must have mentioned TPM on the radio or teevee today."
Rutabaga likes to play nice, but if astral66 wants to get nasty, then Rutabaga also knows that game!
May 15, 2009 11:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ruta likes to play nice? That's what what i'm seeing from your post and comments. BTW when your dealing with me via debate, I won't engage in hate or name calling. I'll be like Aunt Sam sort of. Just to let you know for the future.
May 15, 2009 11:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ruta, your posts have been especially vicious too lately and you only turn people away. Constructive debate is a great thing - and you are so good at that - it just worries me when you become so ugly when it defeats your purpose and creates such a hostile environment here.
It's not a good thing.
May 15, 2009 11:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
95 children...
And now I'm supposed to smile at Obama, and pretend that he's really a good person.
Take a look at this photo that I rescued last year from some badly underexposed coverage that came back from the Georgia/Russia border.
It's just a little refugee on the road.
Now imagine 95 children like her blown to bits because Barack Obama endorsed rules of engagement which absolutely guarantee that many, many children will be killed by "close air support" in Afghanistan.
What's the correct emotional reaction?
May 16, 2009 12:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Aunt Sam, this is one of the real problems we have to confront: denial.
Sometimes it is necessary for someone like Ruta to take a harsh, in your face attitude, to force people to face the truth. And the sad truth is that President Obama has ordered the escalation of the war in Afghanistan and our armed forces are killing more innocent Muslims including the 95 children mentioned, than they are killing "terrorists".
This is the same problem the nation faced bact in Viet Nam when the very popular LBJ escalated the war there despite the fact there was no prospect for anything approaching "victory". We ended up slaughtering about 6 million indochinese. Many people had a hard time understanding when protesters chanted "Hey, hey LBJ! How many kids did you kill today?" Do you remember? I do. The two senseless wars we are engaged in now look to be setting us up for even more of the same appalling and quite pointless mass murder in the name of our quest for "victory" even though Al Qaeda, according to our military, has left Afghanistan and we all know they were never in Iraq.
May 16, 2009 3:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
And why did they send out the public-relations genius David Axelrod to do the interview with Lehrer?
(This is a very easy riddle!)
They sent David Axelrod, the public-relations genius, to do the interview, because...
Suppressing the photos is a public-relations decision, and it has absolutely nothing to do with protecting our soldiers, and everything to do with Obama's approval in the polls.
68%!!!
That's what Axelrod really wants to protect!
And if the chicken-hearted con-man Obama really wanted to save the lives of our brave soldiers...
He would get them out of those hopeless quagmires in Afghanistan and Iraq right now!
May 15, 2009 11:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
You would be making a good argument if you weren't ignoring the fact that Holder, Gibbs and others were all out in various venues as well. Swing and a miss!
May 15, 2009 11:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, just wow. That's all I have to say about you and your posts.
May 15, 2009 11:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just waking up there, RR. If you were paying attention you could have just read about it on my blog from earlier today:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/astral66/2009/05/australian-news-outlet-recycle.php
By the way "new" means they've been around for awhile, and aren't the ones that are currently being blocked. Hardly makes sense to go to the Supreme Court to release photos that are already out there, does it?
May 15, 2009 11:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
You should have read my links before posting yet another silly comment...
May 15, 2009 11:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
And...
May 15, 2009 11:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah...so you're a complete sucker for propaganda spewing right-wing websites. Careful, lots of viruses to be picked up there, especially Drudge.
May 15, 2009 11:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right wing websites? Are you literate or do you just skip the content whenever it refutes everything you have to say?
May 16, 2009 3:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Congrats on learning to cut-n-paste. What's next on the list, putting your crap in your own blog? Or are you afraid no one will bother to look at it?
May 15, 2009 11:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think their release would have the OPPOSITE effect -- would be seen as a CONSTRUCTIVE coming-clean.
Otherwise, why leave out the other reason Obama cited -- the possibility of prosecutions? He is essentially saying, on this point, that he doesn't want to hand potential defendants any "pretrial publicity" excuse or defense.
I obviously disagree on their not being released. But I know he is a good person, and honest, and not only has the welfare of troops and country in mind, but is also a lawyer, constitutional law scholar, and former law professor. And he doubtless has some of the best legal advice available from others.
May 15, 2009 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think they will eventually be released, but if prosecutions are coming up, maybe they're holding them back for that. Timing is everything, and if the Bush/Cheney cabal is going to be put on trial, which would be unprecedented in so many ways, the Obama admin has to make sure they have everything in perfect order. If they blow their approach to a torture prosecution, say goodbye to health care reform, and especially to 2012. Good points, though.
May 15, 2009 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Astral,
One question, albeit a very long-winded one (apologies for that):
You say here and in your post that timing is everything, and that these particular photos should not be released “at this time,” so, given that Obama is a very smart, deliberative and well-intentioned man who is surrounded by smart, deliberative and well-intentioned advisers, and given that this is part of a FOIA suit that has been stalled since 2003, what do you think drastically changed in the last two weeks that caused all of these smart and deliberative people to, independently of course, do a mental 180 and desperately oppose the court-ordered release they were in favor of only so many days before?
PS As I was about to post this I scanned back through the thread and notice that TPMGary has asked a similar question. But I ask it again because you stress timing throughout, and add the following note: the ACLU has agreed to give more time to the admin in other FOIA suits and even said they would be satisfied if the photos were restricted to courts if legal proceedings were brought forward.
May 16, 2009 12:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Not to say I don't agree with you, I do. But prepare yourself for another 100 plus comment thread mixed in with the TPM posters you dislike like with your previous thread on this.. Just wanted to warn you on that.
May 15, 2009 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Plus why are you making this thread since you already posted the Laher/Axelrod interview in your previous thread on the photos?
May 15, 2009 12:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
That was a late-night addition to the thread after most of the original discussion took place. Since that post has now disappeared from the list, I wanted to have a chance to focus on Axelrod's comments.
May 15, 2009 12:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
...since I think the "at this time" statement is a real clue about the intentions of the Obama Admin. to get this stuff out when the time is right.
May 15, 2009 12:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it is a worthy topic of discussion and a 100+ comment thread is always a reason to celebrate. The Obama-haters can say what they want, I'm still glad that he's our guy and has his steady hand on the tiller.
May 15, 2009 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh same here, I agree. But I just wanted to embrace you for another thread war.
May 15, 2009 1:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why did God give us eyes, if not to poke them out with sharp sticks? Ha!
May 15, 2009 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's a chicken and egg question -- and you know it!
Why did God allow sharp sticks if not for the purpose of poking out eyes?
May 15, 2009 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ha! I'm glad we can enjoy a little humor here at the end of the week.
May 15, 2009 4:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
What?
May 16, 2009 10:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I for one am glad you started a new post about Axelrod's comments because I gave up trying to read through all the back and forth on your last post and never saw the update.
Thanks for this, Astral.
May 15, 2009 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hi Lis. Yeah, that last one turned into a real ant farm with too many tunnels leading to dead ends. Sometimes I'm glad when then 24-hour timer kicks in and the thread disappears from the list. A fresh start and a new focus is always good.
May 15, 2009 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Has the situation in the middle east become so unstable between now and one month ago, when Obama announced he wouldn't fight the court order to release the 44 photos in question?
(I've read through your recent posts on the subject Astral. But sorry if I missed your posts opposing the release of these photos when Obama first announced he would--I'm playing catch up on this.)
I do value having a President make decisions in a dynamic way--course correcting as he becomes more informed, as events unfold.
May 15, 2009 1:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey Gary, This was my first post in awhile. I did my best to stay out of the torture war threads up until yesterday, and hadn't taken a position on the photo release until the most recent events took place.
Since Obama is about to head off to a major appearance in Egypt, it seems like a poor time to have the whole situation exacerbated by a flood of newly released images. Not that the British and Australian press aren't doing their best to inflame the situation anyway. The end result, of course, is more heat for the troops, and this seems to be Obama's primary concern, based on the advice he's receiving from his generals on the ground.
I, too, enjoy Obama's flexible thinking, and his ability to change his view based on new information.
May 15, 2009 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Whatever else I may think, I sure as hell want them delayed until he gets back from Egypt.
May 15, 2009 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Total agreement there, even if this was the only underlying reason about withholding them. Obama shouldn't have to suffer anymore than he already does for the sins of Bush/Cheney. The troops shouldn't have to take anymore fire, either, because of the mess that those war criminals put us in.
May 15, 2009 2:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kind of had what happened to Sadat in mind too, unfortunately.
May 15, 2009 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, BS.
1. The dangerous people are not affected by any pictures at this point;
2. There is not sufficient time for not-previously-dangerous people to plan anything effective in the extremely unlikely chance that the photos would be enough to push someone over the edge;
3. People will be a lot more pissed off about Obama withholding information than they would have been about affecting transparency by publishing the photos of events he had no control over. Hell, it is far more likely that it would have improved his standing, regardless of how bad the data was.
He done fucked up.
May 15, 2009 9:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
1. You know this how, exactly?
2. You know this, how, exactly? And you're so sure of it you're willing to bet his life on it?
3. Right. It would improve our standing. Because semi-literate fundementalists from a completely different culture think just the way we college plus educated westerners do.
If we were worrying about how our own ignorant religious fundementalists whose eduction consisted of Bible verses and end times paranoid fantasies would react to something, nobody here would be saying "well, it'll be okay, better than okay, a real plus, because I'm sure their reaction will be perfectly rational and reasonable and enlightened." Which is why I simply just agog at the number of people saying releasing these pictures would be a plus for us throughout the Islamic world. Its like, "hey, that's how I, with my twenty years of western post-Englightment education and liberal outlook would consider it, so of course some angry, unemployed twenty year old kid whose education consisted of having Koran verses and paranoia drilled into his head for eight years, will react the same way because deep inside we're all just alike."
May 15, 2009 9:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
1. Because they are already trying to kill people.
2. There is not enough time; and yes.
3. The semi-literate fundamentalists have already made up their minds. This approach is more likely to taint Obama in the eyes of the rest.
May 15, 2009 9:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry Karl, you're not a true believer so you get the short shrift and avoidance of the substance of what you wrote and denial of the obvious truth.
May 16, 2009 3:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
I would point to the Prophet Muhammad cartoons that were published in Denmark as a good precedent for this. Why would the Muslim world rise up in violent protest about a few silly cartoons? It's such a weak argument to say that new detainee abuse photos wouldn't incite a backlash.
May 15, 2009 9:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have an essentially valid argument, but for its applicability here, additional details need to be considered:
- The main bout of violence occurred about 5 months after the initial publication;
- The first article went over with mild discontent, the real problems started when other newspapers (most with questionable motives) republished and provided some additional drawings;
- Nearly all fatalities were caused by the police to the protesters.
There were some more dangerous plotting at least partially as a result of the entire saga, but the earliest of those took almost a year to set in motion.
I disagree that the analogy is close enough to begin with, but even granting the premise the previous factoids point to the conclusion that delaying publication until after Egypt -- if that indeed is the case -- is misguided at best.
But, hey, it could always be some really elaborate jiu-jitsu scheme to get the right-wingers to comprehend the horrors they have been condoning.
May 15, 2009 10:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe this quote by Obama sheds a little light:
Future investigations? Does Obama see a need to keep the powder dry a little longer?
May 15, 2009 10:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Certainly possible. That quote is probably the worst imaginable way of communicating it (even aside from the impression of a pre-emptive pardon of just such activities that they managed to create earlier.)
May 15, 2009 10:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm also puzzled by just what the "chilling effect" would be.
May 15, 2009 10:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
People all around the world are aware of and viewing the pictures in question---many of them at least and that is what puts the lie to the administration's reversal on releasing them. The ACLU would certainly have given them leeway in releasing the photos until after the Egypt trip, but the admin didn't even ask. Know why? Cause it ain't about the Egypt trip or inflaming Muslims in the middle east. It is about keeping these photos from the American people. Until the government releases them here, the US corporate media won't cover it at all and certainly won't publish or broadcast the leaked photos that everyone else on earth is viewing.
May 16, 2009 3:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Change is a constant there. Three closely things going on in Iraq that I think are relevant are:
a) The AQ types are ramping up the suicide bombings, trying to provoke another wave of sectarian violence--and its hard not to conclude that their object is to keep us there so they can shoot at us and, more importantly, use us as a causus belli and a recruiting tool. The worst thing that could happen to AQ would be for us to keep to the withdrawal timetable we've promised because 1) it shows we're not evil crusader imperialists bent on occupying Iraq forever in furtherance of our plan to crush Islam and, b) it would free up troops to fight them in Afghanistan.
b) We are, in fact, trying to keep to a timetable to get out that gets disrupted if the current upsurge in violence hits a certain point, which, in turn, interferes with our ability to make progress in Afghanistan and get the hell out of there.
c) The Shi'ite dominated Iraqi government, in the kind of short-sided payback obsession that's been the bane of our effing existence, is arresting the leaders of the Sunni Awakening for alleged activities before they left the insurgency and stiffing the people lower down on their pay. We made a committment to the leaders that they wouldn't be arrested and the Iraqi government is, quite openly, flipping us off so they can continue on the 1300 year old Sunni-Shi'ite score settling game. The Sunnis are, not surprisingly, getting pissed and restive and grumbling about going back into the insurgency again. Its not clear whether, and to what extent, they blame us. For now, it looks like they're putting all the blame on the government and accepting that we aren't in control, but that could change.
Things that are going on in Af/Pak that I think are relevant are:
a) We're not winning;
b) the Pakistani madrasses have trained up a bunch of kids who aren't in the field against us yet but could be;
c) Pakistan is coming apart and they have at least 80 well-made nuclear weapons compact enough to be delivered by a short range missle scattered around the country we know not quite where;
d) Most Pakistanis already hate us to some extent.
Yeah, there's reason to be concerned if you're the guy who has to bear the weight if you make the wrong decision and blood flows as a result.
So given all of that, here's Obama's decision tree:
Not necessarily the worst case scenario if I release the photos: riots break out in Pakistan; money and recruits flow into Afghanistan and Waziristan again from Saudi Arabia and Yeman and Pakistan; Iraq blows up; thousands die.
Worst case scenario if I don't release them: left wing bloggers and commenters piss and moan and call me names.
Yeah, can't say it would be a hard call for me, either.
May 15, 2009 2:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great analysis Steve.
"Worst case scenario if I don't release them: left wing bloggers and commenters piss and moan and call me names."
Ha! I need a widget to insert this line as needed in the future.
May 15, 2009 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jeez, you two are on a roll. Really taking the arguments of us other guys seriously, eh? "Worst case scenario if I don't release them: left wing bloggers and commenters piss and moan and call me names."
Funny how last week you two - and Obama - were on the side of the pissers & moaners! How'd you guys magically transform into statesmen from piss-pants bloggers? What's the secret? I wanna be on the side of Glory - and dry pants!
Seriously.... Is that it? These are your knock out arguments? Steve, you list a batch of "facts" that you feel justify this reversal. Question - and it'd really be nice if you responded, even though I may be a left wing pisser and moaner - why wouldn't this same set of facts & arguments justify info-squashing behavior by GW Bush & Dick Cheney?
Now note - I am NOT saying Obama equals Bush. I AM saying that your argument could completely well cover off the activities of complete tyrants (like Bush-Cheney) in justifying their own secrecy. That is, even were I to agree with your facts Steve, they make up such a broad argument that anyone - Bush, Obama, Tyrannicus Quinntillius - could use it to justify suppressing pretty much any information. Not just publishing photos of torture, but even suppressing the holding of trials or revealing the existence of torture itself, right? After all, letting that sort of shit out into the public realm would surely enrage and inflame the Muslim would it not??
As for anyone who disagrees with you being a troll, or a freeper, or Obama-hater or a "pisser and moaner" of the Left? That's pretty weak god-damn tea, guys. Why not try raising the argument, and taking your opponents on at their strongest points? Otherwise I'm gonna have to start pointing out that Astral bought his spouse online, and Steve has only the one testicle. How about trying this:
e.g. You genuinely don't see any problems with suppressing information if it comes into conflict with a desire to "protect the troops" and "win" a war? Would you accept Bush & Cheney having done so to "win" in Iraq & Afghanistan? Would you accept Nixon suppressing info/pics from My Lai to "win" Vietnam? You telling me you really can't see why any reasonable person might have trouble here?
e.g. Or, are you serious in thinking that this decision and its timing has nothing to do with McChrystal's promotion, and his particular ties back to torture-type activities?
Now just a personal point on that "danger to the troops" bit. You guys run pretty hot on that subject. But I think I understand reasonably well the threat this poses to the troops. I've got family there. Is it impossible to imagine anyone might have a different view, and still give a shit about the troops? Or ask Zipper.
And then this line that your opponents must be over-educated elitists who just don't understand the minds of the angry young Muslims. Ok.... at 19 I was surrounded by an angry, armed, Mullah-led, Muslim mob who wanted to kill me. They were all fired up, and this was Iranian Revolution time, so they ran a bit hot. I also got dragged around a bit by their police, and their politicians. There were a few more adventures, but my point is - no, I don't know everything about angry, unemployed, illiterate, fundamentalist Muslim youth... but I know something, about at least a few of them. I lived with them, travelled with them, was friends with them, ended up on the wrong side of some of them, etc. So what makes you think all of us who take a different position on this issue are a batch of jackshit over-educated elitists, eh?
In sum, sorry Astral, your "child porno" label doesn't stick... nor does the "Freeper/Obama-hater" label.... And Steve, nor does the "doesn't care about the troops" line... or the "over-educated elitist who understands nothing of Muslim youth" line...
Try again?
May 16, 2009 12:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well Quinn, first of all, these are my first blogs in about two weeks, so please refrain from lumping me in with whatever group mindset you all bought into last week, I wasn't part of it.
Secondly, we are lucky if we have access to even 5% of the information that Obama and others are looking at. So all of this wailing and nashing of teeth is based on the tip of an iceberg that is 95% out of sight.
This whole notion of complete transparency in government is a hippie pipe dream. It's never existed, and never will. Government is a dirty ugly business. Wars are fought, people die, and it's never pretty. Leaders have to make tough decisions, often between two equally bad outcomes. That's why we have to choose our leaders wisely, right? There has to be some trust and faith in their decision-making based on what they are seeing and the intellibgence that they have. Info that the public will never know.
So if Obama was all set to release this stuff a month ago, great. If in the past month he was presented with a situation that we have no idea about, which caused him to change his position and suffer the hits that he's receiving now, if you support the guy you have to trust his judgement on this. Obama is not flailing around at random making up orders as the days go by. He knows what he's doing. He's thought it through. There's a method to his actions and he's doing what he thinks is best.
So all of this other argument and discussion is great, but people here are taking themselves alittle too seriously if they think that what get's discussed on astral66's blog is in some way going to change the polarity of the planet.
One thing I like about Steve's comments is that I can see that he is capable of stepping back and laughing at our foibles here, just as I do. Pushing peoples' button is part of stimulating debate and getting people to think. I take a postion, you take a postion, and we debate our ideas.
In the end we all learn, but I really don't think Obama or anyone is hanging out here waiting for our pearls of wisdom in order to implement national policy tomorrow.
May 16, 2009 12:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
"This whole notion of complete transparency in government is a hippie pipe dream. It's never existed, and never will. Government is a dirty ugly business. Wars are fought, people die, and it's never pretty. Leaders have to make tough decisions, often between two equally bad outcomes. That's why we have to choose our leaders wisely, right? There has to be some trust and faith in their decision-making based on what they are seeing and the intellibgence that they have. Info that the public will never know."
This malarky could easily have been lifted word for word from the speech of any Dittohead or Republican member of Congress defending suppression of public information to protect the criminals in the Bush regime at any point between 2002-2008. The hypocrisy is really astounding!
Oh, and by the way, the "hippie pipe dream" is what President Barack Obama said on January 21st, 2009 would be the "hallmark of my administration."
May 16, 2009 2:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't actually remember him saying "Hippie Pipe Dream" in his speech. But whatever it's late, i'm going to bed. So like usual well just have to agree to disagree.
May 16, 2009 3:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
The hippie pipe dream he was referring to was transparency and open government BHM. That isn't a guess, that's a fact. Astral, in an extraordinary display of hypocrisy, jeers at what Obama himself said repeatedly would be the hallmark of his presidency and that he would restore upon taking office.
May 16, 2009 3:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, okay fine. Didn't know where your going at with that. Thanks for clearing that up. I wold debate you about this but it's past 3 and I like to start shutting doown and going to be so peace Oleeb.
May 16, 2009 3:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can't even read the transcript, eh?
JIM LEHRER: Thank you. On the detainee abuse photos, how does the president's opposition to releasing them, to making them public, square with his positions on transparency and public disclosure?
DAVID AXELROD: Well, Jim, his positions on transparency and public disclosure are strong and well known, but they don't -- they're not without limit.
When he believes that the release of materials may jeopardize the national security, then he's going to make that case. In this case, his concern is that the release of the photos from acts that happened years ago will serve to inflame the situation now and endanger our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. And that's something he's not inclined to do.
May 16, 2009 3:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
This, of course, in line with your ADD approach is a total non sequitor. It's pretty clear that you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about and if you did, you couldn't defend your position in even a partially coherent manner. I feel sorry for people like you.
May 16, 2009 3:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for this Astral. Interesting that so little is being posted about the General's who are in charge of our troops asserting to President Obama (and others) that the release of these photos would only result in increased harm/destruction of our troops and goals. (But then Cheney et al never really made that their main consideration in any of their directives.)
Again, the only 'judges' that should decide this matter is really the troops and their leaders!
So appreciate your postings on this!
May 15, 2009 2:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I makes me laugh everytime I see the dawn of recognition by both the right-wing and left-wing nutballs that Obama is, and always has been, a centrist moderate. The wingnuts on the right worked so hard to get themselves all in a lather over how Obama was the "most liberal Senator ever", at the same time the most liberal among us were convincing themselves that Obama was "one of us." I've seen nothing yet to suggest that Obama has always worked to be the bridge of moderation between the two sides.
And isn't it interesting that after eight years of criticizing Bush for never listening to his advisors and listening only to the voices in his head (or Cheney's), that Obama is now criticized for heeding the advice of his generals on the ground and in the Pentagon, as well as his own advisors. A nation of whiners indeed.
May 15, 2009 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
At least you can laugh about it, whereas I just get extremely annoyed. So few contribute anything positive to any of the processes but only disparage and critique.
Again, so appreciate you and your posts.
May 15, 2009 3:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
When I disagree with a court decision, I call the judge "activist".
When I disagree with an opinion, I demand "constructive" criticism -- I being the sole judge of what is constructive and what is not. The motive, of course, is to SILENCE opinions different than mine.
And we'd better not "disparage" and "critique" -- the latter, at least, smacks of the mental process called "thinking," and we can't have that, because of the risk it might become rampant.
May 15, 2009 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's Friday! Happy hour!!!
May 15, 2009 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
My point was that instead of just disparaging and critiquing - need to get out there and work for change for the better!
I wasn't saying don't critique, but hopefully that's not all being done by those who are so quick to disparage.
Constructive debate is needed and often I learn much when it is constructive based on facts, not just opinion.
May 15, 2009 11:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think most liberals, once Obama betrayed them on FISA last summer, knew pretty well what he was all about ideologically speaking. I do not think, however, that anyone anticipated that he would be, (with the sole and notable exception of release of the torture memos)the mirror image of George Bush, Dick Cheney and John McCain on these issues which is, at this point, exactly what he is. That isn't being moderate or centrist. That is being totally and completely coopted by the worst elements in American politics.
What makes it all so incredibly disappointing is that he repeatedly assured all his supporters he wouldn't do this precisely because of his strong committment to the principles of transparency, open government and the rule of law. So either he was lying before or he's lying now. I'm not sure which is worse.
May 16, 2009 3:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
I've been posting about it. I'm pointing out that the abuse being covered up by not releasing the pictures could directly implicate their command. This is especially true of McChrystal.
It's interesting how little the "progressives" trusted the military commanders when Cheney purged everyone who didn't agree with him and replaced them with officers who offered loyalty. Now you fawn over the exact same people. Why would you think they stopped supporting exactly what Cheney implemented ... and resist the ideas Obama was elected on? The man who hand-selected them is on TV every night saying Obama's plans make us less safe.
Bush was the master of justifying actions by saying any choice but his decision would endanger the troops (American lives, etc.). It was the signature shut-down-debate device of his administration. And just like the court action taken to block the photo release, Team Obama is using a page right out of the Bush playbook in crafting the messaging to justify it.
May 15, 2009 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nobody is fawning over anyone. But if it makes you feel better about your argument, say whatever you want.
May 15, 2009 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nah, I know Obama could bugger an Iraqi himself and you'd be fine with it. That's why I didn't post to you. You don't address any issues, you just pick a sentence and make a glib remark. I've seen your certitude many times before. Last crew wore an "R" on their sweater, you wear an "O".
But Aunt-Sam seems prone to deeper thought, so I responded to her. Honestly, my annoyance with your general embodiment of the fallacious made me somewhat more harsh than I'd intended to be (sorry AuntSam).
May 15, 2009 6:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right, I don't address any issues, and my entire post above is a bunch of fluff.
May 15, 2009 6:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
You mean we should ignore the constitutionally appointed U.S. Judges who just ruled on the matter? Pretend a poster on RedState said this in relation to something done by Bush. (gotta add a "Goddamn activist judges" for authenticity though).
I'm sorry for Deannie's fear also. I felt the way she described every time one of my good friends was deployed ... I can only imagine a son. But I also know her son signed up to defend our nation and march into the Middle East. We can't just pull a 180 and abandon the criticisms once leveled at Bush because now it feels safe to let the same things occur with Obama as trusted leader. Either Bush's actions and attitudes were wrong or not.
We all have a responsibility to our nation. The responsibility of the Marine is to risk their life if necessary. The responsibility of the citizen is to hold their government accountable. If we won't do our part, what is that marine fighting to defend anyhow?
May 15, 2009 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, that is a blatant rejection of our basic principles. Fortunately, our founders were wise enough to know that that way leads to military dictatorships, autocracies, police states (IOW, tyranny, much like the ultimate results of an unchallenged unitary executive bestowing omniscient powers on our CiC "war president").
May 17, 2009 12:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama = Neo-Lib
100 days is enough time for a ruler to establish his priorities. For Obama, it looks like this:
1. Reinforce the entrenched economic dominance of the investment banking cartel; indemnify major players from financial loss.
2. Consolidate the military occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan; neutralize Iran and prepare the foundation for expansion into Pakistan.
3. Clamp a lid on political excesses of the outgoing regime; ensure loyalty of military and CIA via guarantees of immunity from prosecution.
4. Stonewall on health insurance reform to give major insurers time to distribute congressional campaign donations.
May 15, 2009 5:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lish = Blathering Unintelligible Bullshit
May 15, 2009 5:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
You got me laughing Astral. You and Curt express my anger so very well at times. hahahaha
May 15, 2009 6:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Where do these morans come from? RushLimpDickHannityBeck must have mentioned TPM on the radio or teevee today.
May 15, 2009 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL, is that all you got, Obamabot?
May 15, 2009 6:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh wow "Obama Bot" that's really going to hurt him. LOL.
May 15, 2009 8:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am so crying inside right now.
May 15, 2009 8:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, it took you a whole hour to come up with that?
May 15, 2009 8:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Asstral, with your lame "Bullshit" retort, you haven't even laid a glove on me yet. And from your knee-jerk reference to "RushLimpDickHannityBeck morans", you evidently mistook me for a reich-wing teabagging dittohead.
Neo-liberal rationalizers who wish to avert their gaze from the brutal war crimes of US imperialists are just as despicable as the neo-fascist thugs who ordered and perpetrated the torture regime. Like Obama, Reid, Harmon, and Pelosi, you are all shameless, cowardly enablers of the treasonous parasites who have left the nation bankrupt in moral, political, military, and economic squalor.
Today's sideshow mudwrestling match between Pelosi and the CIA will get even better when Cheney and his henchmen are dragged in under oath as well. All Obama has to do to redeem himself in my eyes is appoint a Special Prosecutor, turn over all evidence to the Justice Department, and let the shit fly for real.
May 15, 2009 10:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
You forget to include the phrase "subvert the current paradigm."
May 15, 2009 10:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Come now, we all know that's just a euphemism for "dirty fucking hippy".
May 15, 2009 11:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
It usually follows jargon like "Reinforce the entrenched economic dominance".
By the way, your 1-4 list comes straight from the conservative handbook. Is that what "neo-lib" means to you?
So if you're not a teabaggin' dittohead, why are you tossing around their favorite "lib" and "obamabot" slurs? What are you, one of those Ron Paul cultists?
May 15, 2009 11:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Conservative handbook? You can't seriously be that thick. Can you? Why do you write things that are so demonstrably wrong and off the mark? Is it the kook aid, uh, I mean kool aid?
May 16, 2009 3:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
astral66 wrote:
"By the way, your 1-4 list comes straight from the conservative handbook. Is that what "neo-lib" means to you?"
Much as the mainstream media, you're framing political disputes into competing liberal vs. conservative camps. And since you consider both Obama and yourself to be liberal, you assume those who attack your position to be conservative.
In reality, liberal and conservative are cultural rather than ideological forces in US politics. Cheney's neo-con cabal had no genuine ideology; it was a pack of ruthless gangsters who cloaked their authoritarian ambitions behind a conservative Republican facade.
In reality, my list of Obama's priorities is neither conservative nor liberal. It is an indictment of Obama's corporate imperialist agenda that seeks to consolidate power and wealth behind a liberal Democratic facade. In other words, a neo-lib agenda.
I believe Obama is telling the truth when he describes himself as a "pragmatist". For him, ideological concepts like treason, justice, and the rule of law are unwelcome distractions from the practical goals that are his first priority.
May 16, 2009 5:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Didn't you say this exact same thing over on my post? Tsk tsk. . .
May 15, 2009 6:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't mind that person, he or she is just spamming that post all around here. Nothing else better to say I guess.
Have a nice day Ramona.
May 15, 2009 11:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey! Nice job with the straw man at the end!
Let's see, you pretend people that want to prosecute war crimes think photos will inflame the U.S. electorate but not Jihadis. So there's the hypocrisy, right?
Except that we were lied to and told it was a "few bad apples" and the photos, along with the senate report and etc. will make it incontrovertible that it was widespread and ordered from the top levels of our administration.
That will indeed incite more domestic agitation for prosecution. So you prefer to make sure the Islamic peoples know we continue to cover up war crimes - than to demonstrate we actually are a rule of law country and mete justice to war criminals when we see what they've done.
You can't hate America after they jail war criminals like you can hate them for covering their crimes.
And yes - it will be impossible for Obama to lie through his teeth about following the rule of law in front of his audience in Egypt while he is busy protecting war criminals from prosecution.
So his reasoning that the photos will point out his hypocrisy is spot on.
All the more reason to release them.
May 15, 2009 6:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Would you respect me more if I bragged about living in a cabin with an Asian beauty 30 years younger than me?
May 15, 2009 6:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Axelrod is singing the same tune as he Bush admin did about national security and troop safety. Neither he, nor the President, held this view last month. Following is a portion of the Court's decision rejecting this very argument of troop safety and national security plied so unsuccessfully by the Bush adminstration. It is this order that Obama now seeks to overturn.
From page 43-44 of the decision:
Plaintiffs and amici curiae, The Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press and other prominent news organizations, object to my consideration of the government's eleventh-hour argument in reliance on Exemption 7(F). See proposed Br. Amici Curiae, filed Aug. 3, 2005. Amici argue that the exemption now pressed by the government could have been presented much earlier, certainly by the date of oral argument in May, and that its invocation at this late date delays the ultimate resolution of the issues. Amici contend that the government's supplemental argument is not made in "good faith" and should not be considered by the court.
The issue of the physical safety of our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, and of the citizens of those countries, has been of paramount concern throughout this case, and it is sensible to address the issue squarely under the framework advanced by the government. The parties agreed to an expedited briefing schedule in order to minimize delays.
The government contends that publication of the Darby photographs pursuant to court order is likely to incite violence against our troops and Iraqi and Afghan personnel and civilians, and that redactions will not avert the danger. The government argues that the terrorists will use the re-publication of the photographs as a pretext for further acts of terrorism. See, Second Amended Decl. of Richard B. Myers, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, dated Aug. 25, 2005. (stating that the "insurgents will use any means necessary to incite violence and, specifically, will focus on perceived U.S. or Coalition mistreatment of Iraqi civilians and detainees as a propaganda and recruiting tool to aid their cause," and that "redaction of the photographs and videos will not alleviate or lessen this risk,") Plaintiffs, on the other hand, provide the declaration of a scholar on the Middle East who states that, in his opinion, "there is nothing peculiar about Muslim culture in Iraq or elsewhere that would make people react to these pictures in a way different from other people's reactions elsewhere in the world." Decl. of Khaled Fahmy, Prof., New York Univ., dated Aug. 4, 2005. In addition, Professor Fahmy suggests that there is a large group of Iraqis, and of Muslims generally, who respond favorably when we show the openness of our society and the accountability of our government officials, and that we would suppress those values and that favorable response by preventing publication of the Darby photographs.
Our nation does not surrender to blackmail, and fear of blackmail is not a legally sufficient argument to prevent us from performing a statutory command. Indeed, the freedoms that we champion are as important to our success in Iraq and Afghanistan as the guns and missiles with which our troops are armed.
From Page 45 of the decision:
The terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan do not need pretexts for their barbarism; they have proven to be aggressive and pernicious in their choice of targets and tactics. They have driven exploding trucks into groups of children at play and men seeking work; they have attacked doctors, lawyers, teachers, judges and legislators as easily as soldiers. Their pretexts for carrying out violence are patent hypocrisies, clearly recognized as such except by those who would blur the clarity of their own vision. With great respect to the concerns expressed by General Myers, my task is not to defer to our worst fears, but to interpret and apply the law, in this case, the Freedom of Information Act, which advances values important to our society, transparency and accountability in government.
May 15, 2009 6:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well damn, if one judge says something you agree with, that's the end of it. Hell, we can abolish courts of appeal altogether and save ourselves all that expense and wasted talent--we'll just run the district court opinions by you to find out if they align with your dogmatic predispositions.
But leaving aside what one judge says, and without looking ahead to what three more judges might have to say when they review it, maybe you can explain something to me. If you, with the benefit of your western secular orientation, superior education and undeniable intelligence can't tell the difference between what Bush did and what Obama is doing, how, exactly is is that you expect a madrassa full of semi-literate 18 year old rural Pakistani or Yemeni kids to do so if these photos were released?
May 15, 2009 9:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
If anything, the rejection of the Bush/Obama troop safety argument was even stronger and more condemning of the purpose and motive behind the appeal smart guy. But why would you know anything about that? It isn't as though you care. You're just a loyal adolescent follower who isn't at all interested in the law or the principles involved in any of this as evidenced by what you've written. The decision of both the district and appeals courts are territory you don't want to tread on because you have nothing to offer by way reasoning that might move the court to abandon the law in favor of secrecy.
May 16, 2009 3:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow, SIXTY investigations between 2001-2006. But I guess you don't care about the judges and decisions that were rendered then, only about your one judge and his decision that suits your own argument and point of view. I guess we just toss out the results of those 60 investigations, who cares about whatever laws were addressesd in those cases.
May 16, 2009 4:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Neither he, nor the President, held this view last month."
So what caused them to reverse their position? "Generals on the ground" is the only new element I can find in any of the discussions. If that's not it, what's your reasoning?
May 15, 2009 7:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am prone to conspiracy theories, but on this one I am tending to just take Obama's word on it. It was said Mr. Berg was decapitated as a response to the previous photo release years ago. So rather then criticize his change of mind, I will take him at his word of this one.
Now, abut single payer healthcare, whazzup wit dat? Sorry, kind of off topic, but I'm not blinded by Obama, although I confess I'm glad he was elected.
May 16, 2009 2:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Gregor your bringing up some painful memories. I saw the beheading of Nick Berg on the internet and it is something I never want to see again, like the torture photos. I mean for christ sake I saw a man get his head sawed off. Who do you think that makes me feel?
Hey don't confess you like the President like it's a dirty little secret, be happy he won.
Good night y'll, night Oleeb since I see your making lots of replies to people you disagree with.
May 16, 2009 3:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Of all the issues before us at this time, this has to be close to the bottom of my bacon-burning list.
Really, people -- soldiers and civilians are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan, the economy is imploding, our healthcare system is on the brink of collapse, we have an unconstitutional prison farm in Cuba ... and the issue that twists your knickers is -- wait for it -- releasing years-old photos of Abu Ghraib.
Whew. That priority makes even less sense when I write it out than it did when I was just thinking about it.
Thanks.
mp
May 16, 2009 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink