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Tonight’s Debate: Another Reason Sarah Palin Will Be Biden Her Time in Alaska Next Year
It was Nate Silver who most recently observed that Democrats are like Cub fans: they obsess about failure, envision their own doom, mope and moan and wait for the first glimmer of gloom in a sunny sky. One month ago, the Chicken Littles in the Democratic blogosphere looked in Palin’s eyes and saw the sky falling. Uh, not. I thought a month ago that our best hope was that Palin would speak, and often. She did, and God bless her. Listening to her, one is reminded of the 1992 cartoon about George H.W. Bush’s incantation of “message received: change.” In it, the cartoonist wrote that Bush’s message was so ludicrously self-parodying that political satirists were forced to function merely as stenographers. So it often is when Palin speaks. While she delivered her canned remarks with an off-center cheeriness that will hearten her base, there can be no question that Biden won, and McCain-Palin moved one step closer to defeat.
First, Biden hit the central notes that have this election locked in a six or so point advantage for Obama-Biden. Fairness. The middle class. Wall Street running wild. While Biden was thrashing McCain for espousing deregulation, Palin was touting the magic of the marketplace. What a magical time this is for markets, Sarah. Excellent point. Her talking points here were delivered with all the wind-up gusto to be found in a Sedona conference room. Moment to moment, she did sound plausible in the early going, but even in her better moments still on the wrong side of the public’s view of economic issues. Biden’s late incantation of “George Bush’s” sang to the focus groupers.
Second, Biden did not make mistakes. As the candidate expected to form complete sentences, and chosen in part for gravitas, Biden had much more to lose. Watching the instant pundit response on CNN, the yakkers are all over the field on who is doing well – but five of Begala, Borger, Castellanos, King, Rollins, and Rosen gave Palin one or more minuses for negatives. Twenty-five minutes in, four of the six scored Biden with no minuses. There are no gaffes here. Simply workmanlike to strong punching, to McCain’s body.
Third, even setting aside the Fargo factor, Palin’s weird factor is unmistakeable. The “I’ve only been doing this for five weeks, I haven’t promised much of anything” quip appeared to frighten those in focus groups holding the direct-response knobs. A team of linguists is still deciphering her statement that all of man’s activities are not attributable to global warming. The chant we hear is “Drill Baby Drill”; thanks for clearing that up, Sarah. And it’s wonderfully Bushlike that she cannot pronounce “nuclear” – five times going. Gay rights: Sarah is not in favor of impairing the obligations of contracts! Whew! The Constitution’s Contract Clause is safe for four more years. Go Constitution! And how about the chirpy delivery of “stinking corpse”? McCain’s diverse supporters: Lieberman, Giuliani… Lingle? Does America know Hawaii’s Republican Governor Linda Lingle? .“I quasi-caved in.” Weird, baby, weird.
[Irresistable digression: Ed Rollins is an idiot. Sorry, at 941 EDT, he’s scoring the debate 17 up, 0 down for Palin. Is there birdseed on his clicker, and a horde of pigeons in the studio? At 1004 EDT, Rollins scores Palin 37-2, Biden 13-5. Maybe Palin gets 5 points for every butcher of “nuclear.” At 1007 EDT, five commentators, including even – ecch – Alex Castellanos score it net positive for Biden.]
Fourth, Palin got blown away on foreign affairs. The litany of McCain’s mistakes on Iraq played nicely again. Palin’s unduly severe charge that the Democratic ticket waves the white flag of surrender clanged awkwardly on the screen and certainly to the public that wants out. And how about “John McCain voted to cut off funding for the troops. Let me say that again…”? Obama held his own with McCain in this area, McCain’s trump; Palin was unable to run with Biden on it, as he set the needles dancing. Palin lecturing Obama about naivete in meeting with enemies fell flat, and Biden smacked it back, with allies, Secretaries of State, with Bush. Spain. (Does McCain-Palin think it good to leave the charge of hostility to NATO ally Spain unchecked? Two debates say yes.)
As McCain’s admirers like to claim of him, Biden was the adult in the room tonight. Though Palin got a pass from Gwen Ifill on the Troopergate scandal and her refusal to cooperate with its bipartisan but Republican-led inquiry, Biden performed in a dignified way, hitting McCain as he needed to, demonstrating a heft and facility with issues that reassured the voting public that the leading ticket had a real number two. Palin did not throw up on her shoes (though she did not appear aware of Cheney’s theory of the Vice Presidency), but she was clearly not Biden’s equal. Two debates down, two debates won, two debates to go. Scrape the pieces of sky that fell on us during the McCain bounce off your shoulders. There were no game changers, and we’re thirty-three days from game over.
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Crossposted at www.dagblog.com, a joint project of Deadman, Articleman, and Genghis.
Comments (81)
Did she say she wants the VP to have expanded powers? I did hear that correctly, right? Chris Matthews certainly heard it, and he said it skeered the bejeezuz out of him.
She came off as being coached, at one time I saw her clearly reading notes word for word, and at times she was downright smug. Maybe that works for the Republicans but it apparently turns off the Independents.
Biden did a great job of smacking her down every time she lied, and he came across as a very sincere, caring man who is clearly worried about America, whereas Sarah just came off as weird and rather rude. IMHO, anyway.
Lastly, Gwen was fair but I wish that she had made Sarah respond when Biden called her out on the Spain issue.
Great live blog at your dagblog.com site, btw, Artie. I enjoyed Sarah Palin Grrrl up until she called me a biotch, LOL!! Next time you see her, bitch slap her for me, will ya?
October 2, 2008 11:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
We'll make sure to send your love to SPG. Glad to see you at dag.
Palin was occasionally rude, Lis. It was kinda weird and goofy. Moments here and there aside, it was a very good night.
October 2, 2008 11:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
For get the bitch slap, LisB... I know what you REALLY want to see again.
Couldn't resist. ;-)
October 3, 2008 10:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
You heard right, LisB. I'd call it a major gaffe too, considering the energy she had invested in trying to distinguish McCain from the Bush administration. Perhaps the evil chennispirit possessed her in spite of her Witch Doctor's protection.
October 3, 2008 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
articleman, your posts are some of my favorites. Thanks for the work you do here at TPM. I agree with all of your points. I recoil when she winks at the camera, I was disgusted wheb she called Barack Obama un-American at the end, and I thought she appeared snarky in the split screen. When Biden cried, I nearly cried. So you have a special needs infant, Sarah? So fucking what. Try having your child DIE, along with your spouse, and having to tell your two other children that mommy is dead. Try sitting in a hospital waiting to find out of one of your other children will die too. Then come and talk to us about how fucking hard your life is. Give us a break, Jane six pack.
October 2, 2008 11:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I second that. So when is TPM gonna hire you?
The best thing that Biden did (not so much early on, but later) was be very real and likable. I know it's silly, but Americans vote for likable people as a rule. After tonight, I don't think anyone in American can not like this guy, warts and gaffes and all. He was far more real than the demeaning folksy caricature Palin was putting on. I think she left her straw hat and fishin pole at the ranch.
And think about it, Biden had a really really hard job tonight: No gaffes (not easy), don't let her be his equal, but don't lecture or appear sexist or condescending. And he delivered. And on top of it, he hammered away at McCain for 90 minutes, while Palin bungled thru with her talking points.
October 3, 2008 12:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
He was more formal, but also quite real. Second that his mission was tougher.
October 3, 2008 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yup yup, he came off as more likable than her. Even though she has the reputation for an "uncanny ability to connect with people". She had to concentrate too hard on her talking points to be effective with the folksy stuff. Biden was genuine and that contrast was obvious.
October 3, 2008 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
And be sending that now-grown child off to Iraq tomorrow ...... You would think that Palin, whose first-born is over there already, would have had a nanosecond of empathy. At least Biden remembered her son in his closing remarks.
October 3, 2008 3:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
You should post more, libgirl.
October 3, 2008 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great analysis! I thought Biden killed it, but I'm usually wrong about the debate winner, I guess because I value substance over crap.
This year, I seem to be back in the majority where substance is concerned. I think all that time spent on the primary counteracted the dumbing down of America. Barack and Hillary smarted us up.
October 3, 2008 12:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is the cycle we have a natural advantage on issues. So your bias toward substance is a helpful way to read an 08 debate more than it is debates in most cycles, IMHO.
But McCain still lost debate number one first and foremost on affect, and that will endure past most of its substance.
October 3, 2008 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think, byt the time all this is over, Sarah Palin will never want to see the lower 48 again.
October 3, 2008 12:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why would she want to see the lower 48, when she's got such a great view of Russia?
October 3, 2008 10:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Touché.
October 3, 2008 12:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
No way. She will be spending the next four years working hard on rebuilding her image, nurturing her base and preparing to run again. She will run for president in 2012 if she can get through the ethics stuff and put it behind her. She'll probably get re-elected in AK. People need to keep an eye on her and call her out on questionable actions to come. That woman should never be anywhere near the Whitehouse.
October 3, 2008 10:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ed Rollins really is a dolt. I think it's the 50 gremlins in his retinue who give him a butt massage to keep him verbally fit. They are on vaca at the moment. Ed misses them.
Fav moment when Biden smacks McCain on Spain and Sarah gawps at the camera.
Most fav moment when she claimed all of man's activities are not attributable to global warming. I thought I was going to fall of my sofa laughing.
Least fav moment - mispronunciation. Nukular.
On Drill Baby Drill. You know, I think that should become a regular greeting amongst Democrats. As in, how are you today, articleman? Oh, just fine, Yva, just Drill Baby Drill. or How was the radio show, articleman, oh absolutely Drill Baby Drill. or, when you have guests in your home and you offer them some libation - "a glass of Malbec?" Their proper and culturally acceptable response may be "oh yes, Drill Baby Drill." Are you getting the drift?
Ok. I'm off to bed. Drill Baby Drill.
October 3, 2008 12:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Don't forget sitting at a bar unwinding with someone you like on Friday afternoon, and being greeted with a comely, Drill Baby Drill.
Palin be with you, Yva.
October 3, 2008 9:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
She looked like Tina Fey doing a sketch of a debate - she tried to win on cute points. Sickeningly sweet. The cartoon voice and the "yeh" instead of you and the "nucular" - I need to go check my blood sugar. I'm sure it's high.
October 3, 2008 12:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
And the winking. WTF is with the winking? So very presidential.
October 3, 2008 12:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
And WTF is wrong with my avatar? Just a minute ago, it was Hillary and now it's back to the cat. It's been going back and forth like this for a week now.
I want my Hillary avatar back, dammit.
October 3, 2008 12:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
This one of the all-time best pictures of Hillary.
October 3, 2008 1:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
A comment which reads pretty funny when the avatar has changed back to the cat! ;-)
October 3, 2008 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, it was back to the cat when I saw the comment and I wasn't sure if libgirl was being snarky. But my Hillary avatar is one of the best all-time pics of her.
October 3, 2008 4:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have trouble with my avatar too, which I recently uploaded. Sometimes it's visible, other times it's not. Seems to be random.
October 3, 2008 9:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
We are all diabetics now.
October 3, 2008 9:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Tslking while smiling gave me the creeps.
October 3, 2008 12:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Tslking" means wrinking one's nose.
Kidding. The beauty-pageant smile is weird.
October 3, 2008 12:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
The "drill baby drill" thing was horrible. She delivered it like it was dirty talk. Made me cringe. Let's all hope we can forget about Palin in a few weeks, and we'll all get t-shirts made that say "drill baby drill".
October 3, 2008 12:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
It was a failed attempt at a sound bite. She was cued for several of them and none landed.
October 3, 2008 1:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
i found her sound bites to be the weirdest when she started mixing them.
I am all for mixing good metaphors to make bad ones, but mixing talking points is too much like a broken record.
Broken robot rather
October 3, 2008 2:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Say it ain't so, Joe, cause there you go again, you betcha!
October 3, 2008 2:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
That goshdarned Joe, dagnibbity. She's clearly got the Arctic goofy vote wrapped up, right next to the earmark vote McCain put away in debate one.
October 3, 2008 9:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Beckett saw her coming a long time ago. Saw all these yoyos coming.
http://www.columbia.edu/~sky/scrapbook/26.htm
October 3, 2008 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Technical correction. You wrote "Sarah is not in favor of impairing the obligations of contracts! Whew! The Constitution’s Contract Clause is safe for four more years. Go Constitution!"
It sounds as if you have misunderstood the Constitution. Article I, Section 10 says no state may pass any law impairing the obligation of contracts. But Congress may do so, and has. See U.S. v. BANKERS' TRUST CO., 294 U.S. 240 (1935) (Upholding law making contract clauses requiring payment in gold unenforceable). This is why bankruptcy courts are federal, not state courts, since bankruptcy usually involves the "impairment" of the debtor's contractual obligations to creditors.
October 3, 2008 2:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Most grandstanding about gay issues is the President tsk-tsking about state treatment of it, including some of what Palin said.
So I guess Palin is ok with state-led attempts to protect the rights of gay partners to agree.
Geez, you're making me unpack slogans.
:)
October 3, 2008 9:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Was it just me, or when Sarah Palin said this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvsPFndSzNU
did this pop into your head:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww ?
On many of Palin's answers, it looked like she had key buzzwords to meter out her answer -- whether they made sense to the question or not. And, of course, if you are cramming in nouns into a sentence, that sentence may run on -- with a point.
October 3, 2008 2:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Is she proposing a nucular weaponry solution to the population problem?
October 3, 2008 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent analysis - Palin started quite well but went downhill hard when it came to foreign policy. Check out some of her other foreign policy weaknesses here -
http://dailysource.org/palin
It's interesting how often the media plays up folksiness and regularness as a positive even when they are in her case as you said - pretty alarming. Hopefully once lesson people sitting on their couches learned already is "I'm not going to support anyone just because they're folksy." George Bush taught that lesson.
October 3, 2008 3:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
The real proof that the media is elitist is that they always assume that the average guy will go for the folksy rube no matter how stupid the folksy rube is. That's why so many in the media are saying Palin won (or at least did well). They're guessing that that's what the people in the "flyover states" must think. But their assumption is founded on the more fundamental assumption that the folks in flyover states are unsophisticated rubes who will infallibly pick their next-door-neighbor over someone with real credentials. This isn't true. Lots of average Americans appreciate real experience, intelligence, and leadership. And in a time of crisis, they are much more likely to vote for a candidate with real skills than some cute, but clearly incompetent, Jill Sixpack.
October 3, 2008 8:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
The assumption that voters are slackjawed glitz preferrers (the McCain handler's comment that this year's campaign is about reactions to personalities and not issues) is proving remarkably wrong this year.
October 3, 2008 9:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
As a famous man (name escapes me) once said, "Never overestimate the underestimation of the American voter."
Errr, something something.
Boys can cry? Well thank God they brought THAT rule change in. I'm gonna go buy me a six-pack of hankies. Got some catching up to do.
Coffee.
October 3, 2008 10:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Now you've got me curious, quinn - try to remember. Wasn't it Bush who said:
"Never misoverestimate the unestimation of the American voter."
October 3, 2008 3:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now you've got me curious, quinn - try to remember. Wasn't it Bush who said:
"Never misoverestimate the unestimation of the American voter."
October 3, 2008 3:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Palin doesn't sound like a governor (that voice, that limited vocabulary) and she certainly doesn't sound like a VP. As someone else said in the comment section of another post, she comes off more like a city council member than a presidential candidate. There are so many intelligent and articulate female politicians out there but McShame picks this incurious and provincial nobody to be a VP. Palin will never represent me as an American woman; she's an embarrassment and completely unpalatable in every way.
October 3, 2008 5:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
The number of women I know who have written or spoken of their deep personal offense at her is amazing. Not because the impulse is amazing, it's sensible. But the strong uniformity to the reaction, and how they describe it, is certain circles is kind of a "wow" thing for me.
October 3, 2008 9:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
I thought Biden did a great job, particularly of keeping his assaciousness in check. My favorite moment was when Palin accused Biden & Obama at just looking backwards, and Biden launched into his past is prologue section hitting on how is McCain's policies different from "George Butches." Palin did better than Quayle. I think she could have pulled a lot of support from McCain with a less than good performance and McCain's camp is breathing a sigh of relief.
My least favorite moment of the debate - the choked up moment. Any Hillary voter is going to reference that moment in New Hampshire and Jesse Jackson Jr.'s response. Or that there were people taking bets on whether Palin would turn on the water works at the debate looking for sympathy. Boys can cry, and then the female candidate gets criticized for being "inhuman" as Maddow put it for not feeling his pain. So it goes.
October 3, 2008 6:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
I heard from 2 female friends last night that Biden's choked up moment was what really drew them in, and sealed the deal on who "won". Neither pays much attention to politics, and thought that moment defined him best for them as someone who has faced tough times, and understands real people's problems.
I agree though, that there is of course a double standard on how it is interpreted. A woman cries, she's weak. A man cries, he's sensitive and real. Although no one ever really believed Hillary was weak, even after her good cry.
October 3, 2008 9:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's great that the returns are rolling in proBiden from Hillaryland. Your reax says Biden nailed it. The Bush litany was as strong as he was all night.
As you say, there is a deplorable double standard against women for expressing emotion, but of course the problem is that both should be able to, not that it's bad if men do or if Joe Biden does. Indeed, people want Barack to more. Rachel Maddow and I aren't Hillary voters, and she saw what you saw in the Biden moment, as did I. You don't have to have voted for Hillary to be concerned about sexist process defects in our culture and politics. I think most of the TPM community is.
October 3, 2008 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh now, don't mistake that as praising Rachel or Biden in any respect. Maddow was looking for some female empathy from Palin and called her response "unemotional" and "inhuman" for not responding to Biden's emotional moment. Would she have criticized a man in that position for not comforting Palin? I think not. Then it would have been welcome to politics, it ain't beanbag, toughen up.
And of course Biden by shedding tears opened himself up to questions of if he's ready to be commander in chief and if he cried for Katrina. Some women voters are going to look at the tears as a cynical ploy to appeal to them, just as some Obama folks thought the same of Hillary. Some women voters are going to think it was a genuine display of emotion. I'd recommend keeping JJJ away from the cameras if you can before he gets to analyzing Biden's tears.
Like I said - Biden did well. But if Palin had turned on the waterworks, the media would have been attacking her as not fit to be VP and trying to manipulate the audience. I don't see a lot of interest in the democratic party much less the TPM community in really addressing how unfair that double standard is.
October 3, 2008 10:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dijamo, you are certainly right re: the double standard. But I just have to disagree with your characterization of Biden's emotion as "turning on the waterworks". They guy was referencing the crash that killed his wife and injured his two young sons. The fact that he didn't break down right there shows some serious restraint. It didn't seem canned, or a ploy for empathy. I think I just chafe a teeny tiny bit at the equivocation between Hillary's emotional moment and the one displayed by Biden last night. Obviously you count yourself in the crowd that sees it as a cynical ploy.
IMO, Hillary was drained by the campaign and feeling the pressures of all that entails, and broke down ever so slightly. No doubt I would've folded up like a card table after that grueling Spring and cried like a baby. Hillary did no such thing, she is quite obviously tough as nails. No doubt. But the idea that Biden opened himself up to questions of fitness to be POTUS over that is just silly. If you DON'T choke up when referencing the sudden and violent death of your wife, I'm not sure you are qualified to be President of the USA. (Remember Dukakis glassy eyed response to the rape of his wife question...)
I know your bottom line is about the double standard, and it is alive and well. But it is fading quite honestly in my opinion, precisely as a result of Hillary's strength and Palin's ascension to the position of VP candidate. At this point no one is credibly questioning Palin's emotional stability. If she had choked up talking about her young disabled son for instance, I don't think she would have been branded weak at all. In fact, I think she showed a total lack of empathy and humanity last night, and could have benefitted from a display of real emotion. As it stands, she comes off like a wind-up toy. You can't possibly expect that to be the topic right now, given the contest is between 2 men at the top of the ticket, and that the country is facing wars and a disastrous financial crisis. Oh yeah, and the election is 32 days away.
October 3, 2008 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
I count myself in the genuine emotion camp, but then I'm not one to second guess people's emotions. My response was more about the media and how others may respond. Not the first time Biden got teary eyed on the campaign trail and that's my point. There were actual pools about whether Palin would shed tears. She didn't. Hillary shows emotion - she's cynical. Palin doesn't show empathy towards Biden - so in Maddow's eyes she's a cold hearted bitch. If Palin shed tears, it would have been a sympathy ploy and no one would have expected Biden to coddle her.
It's a double edged sword. As many people as were moved by Biden, some were probably really turned off - not by a man showing emotion or even theorizing that the emotion was faked, but that he is entitled to do so and a woman candidate is not.
October 3, 2008 11:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
Gotcha. Thanks for responding. Honesty, talking to you and others at TPM has opened my eyes to alot of issues I had no interest or knowledge about. I am a much more well rounded liberal now. Peace.
October 3, 2008 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've always believed Hillary Clinton expressed genuine emotions when she cried, both times. I had and have no problems with that genuine emotion thing. I have no problems with Biden having a moment of deep emotion regarding the tragedy which struck his young family.
I don't know, I feel that I want to see emotion in my politicians. I want it. Not that I want them crying at the drop of every hat, and neither Hillary Clinton or Biden do that, but they still express emotion and are very good at it. As does/is Obama. I like that about him too. I don't see that from Palin or McCain. The only time McCain comes close is when he used to talk about his days in the POW camp. Now it seems almost a kind of rote cover.
October 3, 2008 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Except all teary-eyed moments aren't equal. Biden got choked up over his kid and rolled on. Clinton got choked up over herself.
All roads do not lead back to Hillary Clinton. Biden's moment last night was brief and had nothing to do with the Senator from New York.
October 3, 2008 12:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are commenters on this page accusing Palin of using the baby as a prop. If Palin got teary eyed over her kid, would your reaction and that of TPMers have been the same? Doubtful. If I don't have to like her to recognize the double standard.
And I didn't even mention Hillary in this comment. Damn, almost pulled it off.
October 3, 2008 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Would my reaction to a hypothetical moment be the same? Exactly how am I supposed to answer that? Better still, does it matter how I might possibly answer since you've decided the answer in order to design your hypothetical?
Like I said, all moments are not equal.
October 3, 2008 1:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me try again. Biden also got teary eyed addressing the Delaware delgation at the convention thanking them for their support, so it's not only about his kids that he gets emotional. He wears his heart on his sleeve. I don't think it was affected. But it's still a double standard in terms of response from media and in the general culture. YAY! No mention of she who shall not be named.
October 3, 2008 1:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is what I'm getting at. Some moments feel genuine and some don't. Now, just because a person finds a woman's moment to be disingenuous doesn't mean there's a sexist double-standard. I've seen plenty of disingenuous moments from men as well (especially in politics).
My point has to do with this:
Why? Is Hillary Clinton the only person who's ever gotten choked up in the history of being choked up? Why is that the immediate and necessary association? What does it have to do with the price of tea in China?
In other words: What do these two moments have to do with one another? You say yourself that you don't find Biden's sentimentality to be affected. Is it so radical to believe that maybe some people are struck this way by Hillary, not because she's a woman, but because that's the way she comes off?
You can rail against double-standards, but you're leaning on one of your own.
S'all I'm sayin'.
October 3, 2008 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maddow raised the issue of there being double standards in our politics, and of Biden being allowed to cry after the media dumped on Hillary. Any suggestion she didn't raise this issue frontally (or doesn't care about it deeply) is selective parsing, and misleading. Strongly agree with DF's take here.
October 3, 2008 1:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
John Edwards didn't respond to Hillary's ferklempt moment by questioning whether it was genuine. He responded by saying the job of president is tough and a commander in chief needs to be strong and resolute. Translation: There's no crying in politics. So did a whole lot of political commentators. That's the double standard I saw.
In terms of genuine vs. real, that's a whole other debate. You judge Hillary cynically, others will judge Biden cynically. When it happened, no one thought it gave her political advantage until after she won. Her campaign was all about making her tough enough to be CIC. I don't think it was faked. You disagree. I don't see the double standard that I am leaning on here.
October 3, 2008 1:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Somewhere in the movie Groundhog Day, Bill Murray hears the alarm singing "I Got You Babe" and the radio guys are welcoming Hillary Clinton to Punxsatawney for an early 2008 primary stop.
And it goes on every day, forever, until we have all learned the piano, several foreign languages, died, and seduced everyone in Punxsatawney, all during The Eternal 2008 Democratic Primary That Still Never Ends.
Someone kiss Andi McDowell already and get us out of this mess.
October 3, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
All that glitters is not gold and all who wander are not lost.
October 3, 2008 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was watching the debate at work so I couldn't hear much of it but what stood out is the way Palin handles the baby with Downs Syndrome. She looks like she cannot wait to hand the kid off to her daughter.
As someone else noticed she doesn't seem to care much about her son going off to Iraq either, if the tabloids are to be believed he has not been the easiest child to raise and Sarah seems happy to hand him off to to others as well.
Other than using her oldest daughter as a prop their is very little interaction there as well. I know she didn't answer the questions too well either but her interactions with her family show someone who has many more problems than being stupid.
October 3, 2008 9:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
I apologize for the generalization, but I think that a lot of comments on this thread are bias driven. We all hate Sarah Palin, so we notice everything horrible about her--the canned answers, the fake smile, even the way she handles her baby. And we like Biden, so we diminish his flaws--the pedantic tone, the grimaces, the fact that he didn't look at the camera. As a result, we are in a poor position to judge who "won" the battle for Americans hearts. Because to undecideds, that fake smile may seem a lot nicer than those grimaces, and those canned answers may sound confident and direct.
Regardless of who "won," I think that Palin did about as well as she could have done tonight, given that she actually doesn't know what she's going on about, and I predict that the Palin slide has been halted for now. But in the end, she's still only a VP candidate, and as such, she will neither save nor sink John McCain. From here on in, it's McCain versus Obama.
October 3, 2008 9:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
I somewhat disagree.
This may be a personal moment for her, when she could show America "she's not that stupid". But the "stupid" label will still stick. And your avg. freshman House member can string together talking points far better and more smoothly than she did. Her sentences were weird and at times barely coherent. I think the folksiness schtick was overdone and will seem inauthentic to some of the people she was trying to appeal to. Except for her base and the MSM pundits who are mired in the "expectations game", she just didn't perform at the level she needed to and most people expect. After weeks of disastrous interviews, she barely made it through this debate. Meanwhile, Biden spent 90 minutes tearing McCain a new one.
Palin survived.
Biden advanced.
October 3, 2008 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with Observer and disagree with my friend Genghis.
CNN showed Biden winning 51-36. I don't buy and never bought that one cannot be intellectually honest about your own guy's weaknesses or failings. I saw Gore lose to Bush in debate one by being a jerk, and I saw Barack injure himself greatly with his "likable enough" comment, which made me cringe badly the second I heard it.
I see in this thread a bunch of people who saw and know why our guy won this debate including folks like DJ for whom Biden was not the first Veep choice. I also think her goofy, flirty, winkiness did not play beyond her base. In the worst moments, it was American Idol politics. Genghis is right to the extent Palin delivered her set pieces well.
Biden talked like a Senator and could be verbose, though I think pedantic is a bit harsh of an assessment. He also covered a greater number of issues more quickly than did Obama, who was slower, more choppy, and more emphatic.
If one looks at the percentage of single women who think Palin is qualified (39) and married women (52), the gender gap in places like Pennsylvania, I think the debate did not change Palin's effect on the race. People made up their minds about her, pro and con. The debate didn't change things: her base is revved, the public scored the debate against her with numbers that exceed our lead. That should suffice to disprove the idea that she's irrelevant or helped herself.
But she has cost McCain points in this election, have no doubt.
October 3, 2008 10:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
But Biden did look at the camera. True, his opening remarks were addressed to Ifil, but when he spoke of the middle class, he addressed the camera. I even remarked to my wife when we were viewing an after debate "Hey, he's looking at the camera." (Maybe he was looking at me, come to think of it.)
October 3, 2008 4:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Palin is basically liked by rightwing Republicans (especially men) who eat up her symoblic gestures and codes about "small town values" (none of those pesky minority groups in those small towns -- wink wink!).
Also, the punditry -- a gaggle of very wealthy DCites and NYers -- like to pretend that they know what Middle America thinks. Palin's Gomer Pyle like caricature of a country bumpkin is candy to the likes of David Brooks.
That's about it.
For my money, I think this 1980s era fantasy of America is pure fantasy. Joe Klein pointed out that most Americans haven't lived in small towns for over a century. America has changed and is changing far more than both the GOP and the Boomer-era punditry knows.
October 3, 2008 10:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
My man, we may be biased, but we ain't blind.
All the instant polls seem to say that while Palin exceeded expectations, Biden won by a large margin. That seems to be exactly what we biased types here at TPM are saying.
You're bottom line is right on though, she performed OK, and we now know she isn't a complete moron. But of course, I wouldn't be ordering the McCain-Palin china for the inauguration just yet.
We vote for the top of the ticket, and IMO, Biden did a fantastic job pointing out the flaws at the top of Palin's "great ticket". Palin may have been fine, but she didn't have much of an answer for that all night.
October 3, 2008 10:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think being a good speaker and debater is a skill that requires talent and/or hard-work and experience. Even if the answers are canned, there still requires a proper sense of timing, logic, and a basic foundation of knowledge in order to inspire and sway a jury of peers -- or in this case the American people. Thats what separates a good lawyer from a bad lawyer and a good pol from a bad pol.
Some of Obama is rubbing off on Biden and some of Biden is rubbing off on Obama. Ever since Biden became the V.P. pick, he has become more fiery, inspirational and his speeches have gained a populist reverberation more fitting a youthful anti-establishment upstart. Obama on the other hand has gained a gravitas more befitting a seasoned, grizzled statesman.
Fascinating actually.
October 3, 2008 1:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Count me among the 'sky falling' doomsayers.
Still, finally, FINALLY, Joe got out of his bump-ona-log mode and actually did some damage.
I still maintain that Clinton would have been a much better choice. You'd be seeing polls in the 60 to 30 range instead of 50 to 45.
October 3, 2008 12:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
And almost anyone would have been a better choice than Palin. No going back now, my friend.
October 3, 2008 12:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
*adds KingElvis to private sky falling list*
Ironically, I think your 60/30 thing is as overly optimistic as the sky fallers are pessimistic. Obama and Clinton should both be able to win as lead candidates in this cycle. But in trial heats, each gets some voters the other loses. Without parsing it too finely, your 60/30 suddenly gets all optimistic and presupposes that in combining them, it's all addition and no subtraction.
Maybe that would have been true with Clinton/Obama, maybe, but Obama/Clinton? Respectfully disagree.
October 3, 2008 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
If she did so well, let's unleash her unscripted on the public. Don't we deserve to see more? One debate doesn't say it all. Let's see how far she can take those talking points in tough interviews... I doubt her party will let her out.
October 3, 2008 1:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Biden Her Time" earns you today's TPM Cafe 'Pun-isher Award' (TM).
October 3, 2008 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Palin Comparison
Palindrone
It's all good
October 3, 2008 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I still say you're the champ.
October 3, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Quasi-champ.
Ali will always be the Champ to me.
October 3, 2008 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I'll also say that A-man gets points for working off of Biden instead of Palin. I think Newsweek's "Palin-tology" cover scored maximum cringe points there.
October 3, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Palin's too logy for me.
October 3, 2008 6:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
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